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 What came first the chicken...

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PostSubject: What came first the chicken...   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:09 pm

Or the egg?

...believe it or not this is a Columbine question.

Alright. I've been a good student and done my reading. Now my question to the experienced crowd is the following...

What came first?

The chicken : societal pressures


The egg : mental illness.

In other words, do you believe the boys succumbed to societal or social pressures which lead to mental illness, which in turn caused Columbine.


Do you believe the mental illness preceded the societal or social pressures.

On Dylan.

I feel he was the product of being shy and awkward in an area that seems to favor "plain white bread" so to speak. He strikes me as someone gifted but not someone who would thrive at a place like Columbine. The main similarity I see between he and I is the sensitivity to others words and actions. I can definitely see Dylan's depression being a result of where he stood in comparison to others and also because of the ways in which others treated him.

On Eric.

Harder nut to crack for me. I think in Eric's case the mental illness might have plaid a bigger part in his decision to be a part of the massacre. I'm not sure I can say he's a sociopath or psychopath. I'm just struck by the amount of anger in his writings and that makes me wonder of there was more there than something that might have been caused by neglect or apathy from his peers.

As a side note. I do feel like there was something not quite right about the Klebold family. Something about some of my recent readings makes me feel like Dylan was a kid with problems who was raised in a family that wasn't overtly affectionate towards him. Something I can relate to. And if that was the case I can definitely see how he went off the deep end.
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PostSubject: Re: What came first the chicken...   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:35 pm

I a bit agree with you but Eric seemed to be very affected by social problems too. A mental illness might have plaid a bigger part in his decision but both had to decided to make the rampage for something that they had in common, from thoughts to things that bothered them and the problem about not fit in in the school might have plaid a bigger part too. The mental illness could come later in both of them (I am not sure yet if Dylan had a mental illness though) but the social problem might be the biggest factor in their decision too and what started their rage against the society and school.

About Dylan's family. Well we dont know them very much to say if it was a loving family or not. So I can't say nothing about it.

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Last edited by Mj2beat on Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: What came first the chicken...   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:46 pm

I believe the chicken came first.

We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
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PostSubject: Re: What came first the chicken...   Fri May 02, 2014 1:23 pm

I think that mental illness for both boys came first (which form I am not positive). BUT I don't think that columbine would ever have happened if Eric and Dylan had felt liked/respected by their peers.

Many people get bullied and don't go NBK.
Many people have mental illness and don't go NBK.

I truly believe it was a combination of both that lead E & D to believe this was their only option.
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PostSubject: Re: What came first the chicken...   Fri May 02, 2014 3:54 pm


Eric and Dylan were born vulnerable and through the stress of adolescence, they adopted mental health issues.
But: the stress they suffered from was not in any form different from what their peers experienced. They weren't extraordinary bullied or harassed. They weren't abused.
They simply were so vulnerable, that very normal and average adolescent-problems triggered extraordinary mental problems.
So, although there mental illness did rise along with their teenage problems, it was their vulnerability and predisposition where the roots of their problems were.

So in some sense it was the egg.

For example: Remember Eric's refusal to participate in a baseball game, because he did not want to disappoint his team members, at the time he lived in Plattsburgh. This was before all the bullying-stuff in Littleton, it was before his traumatic move from Plattsburgh, it was before he repeatedly was rejected by girls.
His vulnerability came before all these things. He was so vulnerable, that all the things, he experienced in Littleton (and not of the things he experienced, was in any form out of normalcy for a teenager) triggered an immense complex of Personality Disorder traits, who developed to such an extreme level, that it took him to Mass Murder.
Basically, a Personality Disorder is nothing than an extreme tactic of trying to cope with problems. Eric Harris turned into the fantasy world sadism and narcissism, because it gave him power and control over things, he felt he had no control over. It gave him the hope, that it might solve his problems.

Such an extreme vulnerability is a mental health issue.

So I'm going for the egg.
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PostSubject: Re: What came first the chicken...   Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:11 am

Each person has peculiarities of functioning of the nervous system. It's a genetic condition from birth. It is different processes: chemical and functional that define type of the nervous system. It is from these features will depend on how the child will react to factors in the external environment will form his character.  This is not only education, but also an innate feature of the nervous system of each person. Even if you look at a two-year or three-year-olds, you'll notice that they all have their own character. Someone calmer, someone more noisy, some children can be cruel in this age (but not all, and only a few children). Education and environment can alter the traits, both positive and negative. But usually from the "bad" children grow up to be not very good adults.
Again, each person will react to the same situation differently. Although in General people's reactions will be similar (assuming that all of them react adequately) will be different variations, depending on the type of personality (nervous system), culture, education, religion, mental state, different circumstances.
My point is that not all people will become bad (violent, angry, aggressive, callous, shameless, etc.) only under the impact of adverse conditions. If there were such a direct link, then all people would become brutal killers, but this is not happening. During the war, not all people turn into psychopaths, not even all the soldiers are ready to execute the cruel orders towards other people, even to the opponents.
Eric and Dylan had these congenital peculiarities of their character, which showed themselves under the influence of adverse factors. Perhaps in other circumstances they would be great guys, maybe, who knows. Rolling Eyes  And also, do not deny the fact that other children caught in similar circumstances, would have responded differently (Eric and Dylan were not the only outcasts in school, there were children who were poisoned on a daily basis). Remember the story of the ugly duckling? So my answer is the egg that was not hatched the chicken. Only that hatched, turned not into a beautiful swan, but a monster.
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