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 What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:25 pm

Come on, guys. Do you really believe sex would have stopped columbine? Sex does not cure anything and neither does finding love. These two hated themselves and wanted to kill everyone so how the heck were they going to love someone when they wanted to kill them all?
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:23 pm

Mark wrote:
Come on, guys. Do you really believe sex would have stopped columbine? Sex does not cure anything and neither does finding love. These two hated themselves and wanted to kill everyone so how the heck were they going to love someone when they wanted to kill them all?

I am a bit agree with you but I also believe that have someone to love, get a girl or at least just sex. Could liberated some of their frustration and depression. Even though I am not sure if it would stop the massacre at all.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:01 pm

Mark wrote:
Come on, guys. Do you really believe sex would have stopped columbine? Sex does not cure anything and neither does finding love. These two hated themselves and wanted to kill everyone so how the heck were they going to love someone when they wanted to kill them all?


I think it could have made a definite difference ,yes. Love can give people hope and they desperately needed some sort of hope to hold on to.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:29 am

@PaintItBlack wrote:
Mark wrote:
Come on, guys. Do you really believe sex would have stopped columbine? Sex does not cure anything and neither does finding love. These two hated themselves and wanted to kill everyone so how the heck were they going to love someone when they wanted to kill them all?



I think it could have made a definite difference ,yes. Love can give people hope and they desperately needed some sort of hope to hold on to.

They hated everybody though and with the mentality they had, they'd never be able to be in a normal functioning relationship. Dylan babbled in his journal about how he wanted to die with his "love". Even if he had a girlfriend he was hoping she'd die in the bombing with him. It is a good thing girls stayed away from those two.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:48 pm

Mark wrote:
They hated everybody though and with the mentality they had, they'd never be able to be in a normal functioning relationship. Dylan babbled in his journal about how he wanted to die with his "love". Even if he had a girlfriend he was hoping she'd die in the bombing with him. It is a good thing girls stayed away from those two.

Ha, I totally agree. I don't think finding love would have helped at all. Perhaps produce a few stutters in their minds... but how would have stopped anything? They were hellbent on destruction. Trying to imagine that love solves everything is... kind of insane. Dylan was so... gone (well, I can't think of any other word right now...) with the idea of 'love', and how much power 'love' had, that whatever he could experience with a girl most probably wouldn't be affection; it'd be obsession. Infatuation. Creepy.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:40 pm

@cal_hates_you wrote:
Mark wrote:
They hated everybody though and with the mentality they had, they'd never be able to be in a normal functioning relationship. Dylan babbled in his journal about how he wanted to die with his "love". Even if he had a girlfriend he was hoping she'd die in the bombing with him. It is a good thing girls stayed away from those two.

Ha, I totally agree. I don't think finding love would have helped at all. Perhaps produce a few stutters in their minds... but how would have stopped anything? They were hellbent on destruction. Trying to imagine that love solves everything is... kind of insane. Dylan was so... gone (well, I can't think of any other word right now...) with the idea of 'love', and how much power 'love' had, that whatever he could experience with a girl most probably wouldn't be affection; it'd be obsession. Infatuation. Creepy.

Exactly and I can't help but laugh when I see these fans claiming that if they had gotten the chance to be with either of them they could have "saved" them. Yeah right, chances are those 2 would have killed them as well.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:23 pm

I wonder if Dylan ever mentioned to Eric who his love was.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
I wonder if Dylan ever mentioned to Eric who his love was.

Probably he mentioned some of his crushes in a guys talk with Eric but if he mentioned that love of his journal, we just can especulate.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:44 pm

Finding a way to love themselves is more important than finding love for their stage in development. That can come from building friendships or counceling, but not from sex. Any projections of insecurity or self doubt is likely to sent different messages that could push people away.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:48 pm

Mark wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Mark wrote:
Come on, guys. Do you really believe sex would have stopped columbine? Sex does not cure anything and neither does finding love. These two hated themselves and wanted to kill everyone so how the heck were they going to love someone when they wanted to kill them all?



I think it could have made a definite difference ,yes. Love can give people hope and they desperately needed some  sort of hope to hold on to.

They hated everybody though and with the mentality they had, they'd never be able to be in a normal functioning relationship. Dylan babbled in his journal about how he wanted to die with his "love". Even if he had a girlfriend he was hoping she'd die in the bombing with him. It is a good thing girls stayed away from those two.

That's a matter of opinion. You can't say for sure they could never have a good, functional relationship because  we just don't know . We can only have our opinions on it. It didn't happen. It was something  that I do believe they both wanted. And by the time Dylan wrote those entries you spoke of he was far, far down the rabbit hole of depression and hopelessness.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:52 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Mark wrote:
They hated everybody though and with the mentality they had, they'd never be able to be in a normal functioning relationship. Dylan babbled in his journal about how he wanted to die with his "love". Even if he had a girlfriend he was hoping she'd die in the bombing with him. It is a good thing girls stayed away from those two.

Ha, I totally agree. I don't think finding love would have helped at all. Perhaps produce a few stutters in their minds... but how would have stopped anything? They were hellbent on destruction. Trying to imagine that love solves everything is... kind of insane. Dylan was so... gone (well, I can't think of any other word right now...) with the idea of 'love', and how much power 'love' had, that whatever he could experience with a girl most probably wouldn't be affection; it'd be obsession. Infatuation. Creepy.

Not sure that's true.But even if it is some women enjoy being obsessed over.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:00 pm

@PaintItBlack wrote:
Mark wrote:
@PaintItBlack wrote:
Mark wrote:
Come on, guys. Do you really believe sex would have stopped columbine? Sex does not cure anything and neither does finding love. These two hated themselves and wanted to kill everyone so how the heck were they going to love someone when they wanted to kill them all?



I think it could have made a definite difference ,yes. Love can give people hope and they desperately needed some  sort of hope to hold on to.

They hated everybody though and with the mentality they had, they'd never be able to be in a normal functioning relationship. Dylan babbled in his journal about how he wanted to die with his "love". Even if he had a girlfriend he was hoping she'd die in the bombing with him. It is a good thing girls stayed away from those two.

That's a matter of opinion. You can't say for sure they could never have a good, functional relationship because  we just don't know . We can only have our opinions on it. It didn't happen. It was something  that I do believe they both wanted. And by the time Dylan wrote those entries you spoke of he was far, far down the rabbit hole of depression and hopelessness.

That is exactly my point. Dylan was so far gone that no relationship was going to help him and all Eric thought about was mass destruction. Sure, he wanted sex but him in a relationship where he'd have to think about someone else other than himself? Nah. I don't see it.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:02 pm

@philosopher_king wrote:
Finding a way to love themselves is more important than finding love for their stage in development. That can come from building friendships or counceling, but not from sex. Any projections of insecurity or self doubt is likely to sent different messages that could push people away.
Completely agree with this.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:56 pm

We will just have to agree to disagree.I do wonder though,if that way of thinking is dehumanizing to the boys? By thinking, they weren't capable of real love or caring? Or wouldn't want a real relationship?



Mark wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Mark wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Mark wrote:
Come on, guys. Do you really believe sex would have stopped columbine? Sex does not cure anything and neither does finding love. These two hated themselves and wanted to kill everyone so how the heck were they going to love someone when they wanted to kill them all?



I think it could have made a definite difference ,yes. Love can give people hope and they desperately needed some  sort of hope to hold on to.

They hated everybody though and with the mentality they had, they'd never be able to be in a normal functioning relationship. Dylan babbled in his journal about how he wanted to die with his "love". Even if he had a girlfriend he was hoping she'd die in the bombing with him. It is a good thing girls stayed away from those two.

That's a matter of opinion. You can't say for sure they could never have a good, functional relationship because  we just don't know . We can only have our opinions on it. It didn't happen. It was something  that I do believe they both wanted. And by the time Dylan wrote those entries you spoke of he was far, far down the rabbit hole of depression and hopelessness.

That is exactly my point. Dylan was so far gone that no relationship was going to help him and all Eric thought about was mass destruction. Sure, he wanted sex but him in a relationship where he'd have to think about someone else other than himself? Nah. I don't see it.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:09 pm

@PaintItBlack wrote:
We will just have to agree to disagree.I do wonder though,if that way of thinking is dehumanizing to the boys? By thinking, they weren't capable of real love or caring? Or wouldn't want a real relationship?

Honestly, what would they care? They are murderers who hated everyone. They didn't care what people thought of them and they wanted to kill and destroy as much as possible and no relationship would have changed that. They hated everything, including themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:43 pm

They ended up murderers but they were also human beings. Teenage boys. They might care. If they truly didn't care what people said or thought of them, this probably would not have happened.

Mark wrote:
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We will just have to agree to disagree.I do wonder though,if that way of thinking is dehumanizing to the boys? By thinking, they weren't capable of real love or caring? Or wouldn't want a real relationship?

Honestly, what would they care? They are murderers who hated everyone. They didn't care what people thought of them and they wanted to kill and destroy as much as possible and no relationship would have changed that. They hated everything, including themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:00 pm

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Columbine was caused by the fact that Eric Harris suffered from uncontrollable homicidal fantasies.

This is the real cause, because everything follows from it.  Without Eric's fantasies, none of the other stuff (Dylan's involvement, the incident in the commons, video games) would have taken on the power it did.


How do you know that? How do you know Dylan isn't the one who came up with the idea?

It doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

It is obvious that Eric was consumed with obsessive homicidal fantasies, and this was the cause of Columbine. It is the only factor that IS present in Columbine but NOT present in other high schools.

Bullying, alienation, depression, etc. happen at every high school every day.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

It is obvious that Eric was consumed with obsessive homicidal fantasies, and this was the cause of Columbine.  It is the only factor that IS present in Columbine but NOT present in other high schools.

Bullying, alienation, depression, etc. happen at every high school every day.


And how do you think that those homicidal fantasies started in Eric and other mass murderers?

I would like to know your theory in that part of the subject Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:51 pm

Maybe it's just me but personally I think Eric and Dylan were just whiny little brats who had it a lot better than most people but didn't appreciate a damn thing. Bitching and crying because someone picked on them in gym class (like they didn't pick on people as well). How many times did these clowns actually get beat down or have someone threaten to kill them? Their bullying was mild compared to some that I've seen/read about.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:21 pm

Mark wrote:
Maybe it's just me but personally I think Eric and Dylan were just whiny little brats who had it a lot better than most people but didn't appreciate a damn thing. Bitching and crying because someone picked on them in gym class (like they didn't pick on people as well). How many times did these clowns actually get beat down or have someone threaten to kill them? Their bullying was mild compared to some that I've seen/read about.

You can have "friends" but not feel that are the real ones, you can have lots of things but not be satisfated, you can be in a place and not feel totally accepted, not fit in. Eric and Dylan also had sensible personalities and all those bad little things, affected them a lot. Something in their enviroment started their problems and personality disorders and they started to not be happy with the world and system, they ended up againts that for a hate that with the years grew up inside of them. The bullying or the attacks that they did could be product of their frustration for not feel part of the school and world.

Many people experienced real bullying everyday, worse rejection but something in Eric and Dylan made that the negative they experienced, would be bigger than really was and it created another world in their minds where they were superior and had to exterminate all the people that laughed of them.

Thats how I see them after read many things from them and people that were close to them and is my opinion. Of course, your opinion is valid too but I doubt that their problem was something so simple. Although I respect it because in the end we are just speculating in based of our own perspectives and thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:28 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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It doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

It is obvious that Eric was consumed with obsessive homicidal fantasies, and this was the cause of Columbine.  It is the only factor that IS present in Columbine but NOT present in other high schools.

Bullying, alienation, depression, etc. happen at every high school every day.


And how do you think that those homicidal fantasies started in Eric and other mass murderers?

I would like to know your theory in that part of the subject Smile

Not much is known about why people become possessed by these fantasies. I think it's probably a personality disorder of some kind, but the people who have it cannot escape it.

Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez. Eric Harris was afflicted with intense homicidal fantasies that he felt deeply compelled to act upon. He daydreamed about murder all the time. He belongs in the category of serial killers of strangers, not of bullied children lashing out. Eric did not kill any bullies for revenge, he killed strangers for thrills.

A person with intense homicidal fantasies will kill without being bullied, rejected, etc., but someone who is bullied, rejected will NOT kill huge numbers of strangers without homicidal ideation.

Therefore, Eric's intense homicidal ideation is really the only cause.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:38 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

It is obvious that Eric was consumed with obsessive homicidal fantasies, and this was the cause of Columbine.  It is the only factor that IS present in Columbine but NOT present in other high schools.

Bullying, alienation, depression, etc. happen at every high school every day.


And how do you think that those homicidal fantasies started in Eric and other mass murderers?

I would like to know your theory in that part of the subject Smile

Not much is known about why people become possessed by these fantasies.  I think it's probably a personality disorder of some kind, but the people who have it cannot escape it.

Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez.  Eric Harris was afflicted with intense homicidal fantasies that he felt deeply compelled to act upon.  He daydreamed about murder all the time.  He belongs in the category of serial killers of strangers, not of bullied children lashing out.  Eric did not kill any bullies for revenge, he killed strangers for thrills.

A person with intense homicidal fantasies will kill without being bullied, rejected, etc., but someone who is bullied, rejected will NOT kill huge numbers of strangers without homicidal ideation.

Therefore, Eric's intense homicidal ideation is really the only cause.

Right, but not all the people with homicidal ideation or psychopathy kill people, because some people have that in their genes and no kill anyone and other ones can developed it later in their lives for some accident or trauma and do it. The killers are a product of their environment so several traumas started their fantasies most of the times. Inappropriate family environment, sexual abuse, destructive and self-destructive behaviors from parents, a poor social experience, social rejection, bullying and several other problems made worse their condition. Ted Bundy was adopted by his grandparents and grew up believing that his mother was his sister, Richard Ramirez suffered in his childhood several head injuries and psychopathy is an integration of brain abnormalities product of head injures sometimes what could affected him with other personal traumas like presence the murder of his cousin's wife and the influence of his cousin with army stuff. Eric Harris childhood in several cities and being always the new kid could made him felt apart from everyone and never able to fit in. All that could affected their lives to a serious level. So in general is known why people become possessed with those fantasies in their heads and what made them murderers, that is in most or all the cases something neurological with personal experiences.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:55 am

Are you a Cullen fan Mark ?

Mark wrote:
Maybe it's just me but personally I think Eric and Dylan were just whiny little brats who had it a lot better than most people but didn't appreciate a damn thing. Bitching and crying because someone picked on them in gym class (like they didn't pick on people as well). How many times did these clowns actually get beat down or have someone threaten to kill them? Their bullying was mild compared to some that I've seen/read about.


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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:57 am

It puzzles me that people believe that Eric and Dylan were totally willing to give up their lives at incredibly young ages for nothing at all. Like it was the easiest and simplest thing in the world for them to do. Almost natural to them. I will never understand this line of thinking.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:20 am

@PaintItBlack wrote:
Are you a Cullen fan Mark ?

Not at all. I said I think they are BOTH whiny, ungrateful little brats. Not just Eric.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:19 am

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It puzzles me that people believe that Eric and Dylan were totally willing to give up their lives at incredibly young ages for nothing at all. Like it was the easiest and simplest thing in the world for them to do. Almost natural to them. I will never understand this line of thinking.

I am not sure if the people exactly believe that, I can see that what they mean is that Eric and Dylan just had a mental illness but as I pointed out before. Is not so simple, is not that they planned that because they didnt take their medicines like the college classmates of my best friend claimed a few days ago. There is always something personal behind killers's actions but many people not read about what could make someone a killer and if they didnt experienced some personal trauma either. They will believe that is only mental illness or another thing when they dont even know how it could started and experts have made researchers about it and have talked about it.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:48 pm

Something I haven't seen discussed in detail is their upbringing. Not as in abusive parents, mistreated and beaten, traumatized throughout childhood. But just in general.

Parents have different parenting styles. Even one couple raising multiple children will have different parenting styles with each child. And each child responds differently. Some of that is innate personality, some to do specifically with the way they are being raised.

I was good friends with a girl who had 3 children. The oldest 2 were boys, the youngest was a girl. The kids were all a year apart. The oldest got special treatment from Mom because he was her firstborn. The youngest got special treatment from Dad because she was the only girl. The middle child got borderline neglected, so far as attention went, and because of it was wild and obnoxious, always acting out and being a pain in the ass - because both Mom and Dad paid attention to him when he did so.

If Mr. Harris was more bonded with his older son, for whatever reason, and Mrs. Harris bonded more with Eric, and Mrs. Harris had the weaker personality - so to speak - it stands to make sense that Eric would be weaker emotionally than his brother and so not be able to handle the emotional trauma of moving as easily.

This is purely hypothetical, of course. But I have noted that many parents indulge their children to the point that they are then unable to cope with anything that does not go their way, and act out in response. I noted something similar when reading Elliot Rodger's autobiographic manifesto or whatever it was. He talked about becoming hysterical, throwing temper tantrums, whatever you call it, at the age of 8 or 9. And then his parents indulged him until he stopped. Folks, I have an 8-year-old. If he threw a temper tantrum, I would toss him in his room and tell him to come out when he gets the hell over it. I have said something previously on another thread about "coping skills" and how kids in general, never mind mass murderers, don't seem to have them. Well, if you don't have the skills to cope with normal everyday things (Eric flipping out when the girl hit Dylan's car, Dylan allegedly hitting a coworker when she got on to him at work), you sure as hell are not going to be able to cope with frequent rejection by romantic possibilities, constant bullying and inattention from your peers, etc.

This is no way negates the other possibilities as to what caused Columbine. But I think it could certainly play in to it.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:45 pm

You can point to any causes you want--Bundy's confusion about his childhood, Richard Ramirez's injuries, Eric's childhood.

The fact is, millions of kids suffer these things. So few kill. So the killing fantasy is the only real cause.

A wolf kills a doe in the forest. Did the doe cause it by standing there?
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You can point to any causes you want--Bundy's confusion about his childhood, Richard Ramirez's injuries, Eric's childhood.

The fact is, millions of kids suffer these things.  So few kill.  So the killing fantasy is the only real cause.

A wolf kills a doe in the forest.  Did the doe cause it by standing there?

And how do you think that those killing fantasy start?

Psychopathy and schizophrenia, can be inherited just like cancer or alcoholism. In addition, some children seem to be born with lower levels of interpersonal connectivity. They seem to be born with less empathy for that reason. But it doesnt mean that a child is born "evil", certain predispositions may be inherited, but our family and society influence too. Children with that can be raised in a good family like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and most of them not become violent, but if the children experience a trauma in his home or outside like also can happen with the ones raised in a good family. Something that was closed, can open inside of them and they will become "monsters".

Thats why not all the people with antisocial disorder, kill someone and all the people with traumas kill someone. Just like also the ones with killing fantasies.

Of course, we don't know if Eric and Dylan and those other murderers, had a inherited disorder or if they had one at all that developed later in their lives (since that is possible too), but could be in some cases and whatever it was. It shows why not all the people with traumas kill other people.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:18 pm

With all due respect lasttrain,if you had had the school experiences some of us on this board have  had,you might have a different perspective on all this.I was once where E &D was and I know it was not caused by me having "killing fantasies" to start out with.I was driven there over the years by my classmates, the school administrators and the school environment overall.
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