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 who's idea was NBK?

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Nirvana92

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PostSubject: who's idea was NBK?   Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:43 pm

Hello I'm a long time lurker and first time poster. With the anniversary happening recently I've gotten back into the topic of Columbine. One thing I've always wanted to know is whos idea it actually was to go through with the shooting. As we all know Klebold was suicidal for a long time and had even mentioned going on a shooting spree at one point. We also know Eric obviously had anger issues for most of the time he spent living in Littleton. They and many others (friends, TCM, etc.) liked to joke about blowing up the school as well. Plus they were "outcasts". You see me and my friends were the exact same way. We were the outcasts who got picked on. We were the ones with anger issues. We got into trouble with the law and made jokes about "getting even" with them too. To me that's normal teenage angst and debauchery. Shooting up your school isn't though, and the fact that there were two of them is pretty rare. I know its not a question that can be answered 100% (at least not without seeing the basement tapes), but how do you think the transition happened? Was it a simple joke gone too far, or did they feed each others rage to the point that it boiled over?

I see it as a slow transition over the months after their arrest. Kind of a timeline like:

One day they're joking about NBK as a way to let off steam.
Next their building bombs for fun that COULD be used to attack the school.
Then their researching guns to use IF they were to do it.
Now they've acquired guns and are stock piling bombs they COULD use if they WANTED to.
Now they have loads of clips, ammo, and bombs they MAY use to attack Columbine.
As 4/20/99 approaches the coulds, ifs, and mays becomes WILL.
We WILL carry out NBK.

Of course it could have been as simple a conversation as:

"I fucking hate this place. Jocks, cops, Christians, and shit. I wish I could kill them."
"Me too.
"I'm being serious man. I'd kill them all."
"I'm right there with you man. Fuck it."

I hope that makes sense. I guess it interests me because I could have went down that road. Ill be honest and say I even thought about it once or twice. But I didn't and neither did my friends. I'd just love to know what made doing this ok to them. I've seen people discuss the possibility that one of the boys wanted to back out at the last minute. Anyone got any more info on that? Maybe it wasnt as set in stone as we all think. I'm just curious how and when you guys think the actual planning for NBK started.
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:19 pm

I can't provide the answer, but I'll inject some insight.

I hear a lot of people state that Dylan wrote about it first, but that is not to say he thought of it first. I remember reading Dylan's writings where he stated something to the effect of "maybe Reb is right with this NBK thing".

I'll throw this in... maybe it was neither. The TCM were older & had discussed revenge fantasies openly well b4 E&D per Chris Morris & at least one other I can recall from reports/interviews.

I guess the difference between E&H & the others was that E&H saw it as "everyone" vs us whereas TCM had their particular nemesis.
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:32 am

Of course the idea of shooting up your school isn't original, but very few people ever take the thought serious enough to act on it. I wonder if one had to talk the other into getting involved or if the urge to kill was mutual from the start. I just find it incredibly interesting that these two kids were able to not only share these violent thoughts, but to act on them as a pair. I'm sure they talk all about it on the BTs. For all we know those tapes could show THE moment that they decided NBK was to be a reality. I wouldn't put it past Erics ego to film his "declaration of war".
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:02 am

I wonder if it started out as a bit of a 'we'll show 'em' to the TCM?

Eric & Dylan weren't full on associates of the TCM and, as mentioned earlier, were a bit younger than the main members. Having heard their peers jest of blowing up the school, might have thought it as a way to show them they were to be respected if they could find a way to get at everybody at the school.

Then things clearly got out of hand quickly and it became much more than trying to impress people...
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:03 am

That's a good point I hadn't thought of before. "You guys only joked about it, we went full blown NBK." Where there any older kids who E and D were known to have looked up to? Do you think they expected some people to be impressed? I've always thought the bombs were Eric's way of setting himself apart from other rampagers. His writing about the "kids in Kentucky with .22s" who did it to fit in would hint to that. I find that entry interesting when contrasted with his writings on how he hated followers. Eric was afraid he'd be lumped in with other teen murderers. He had to make sure he was different from others even when committing mass murder. He'd kill hundreds with his bombs and the rest with bullets. Eric wanted to be a terrorist feared by everyone in the world, not a simple school shooter striking fear into his classmates hearts. People say they wanted to destroy Columbine itself. I don't doubt it, but I do think its a bit deeper than that. Hating school gave them a reason as well as the perfect venue for their little "judgment day". E and D could have attacked a mall, a police station, a neighborhood, etc. They knew though that none of those would be as horrifying as a school. Even today a school bombing is a rarity. E and D might not have succeeded in blowing up the school, but they sure as hell got the infamy they were after. 16 years later and here we all are talking about them.
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:45 am

First of all, I remember probably everyone in my primary school joke about blowing up the school or at least expressing some sort of: "This school sux, someone should levell the whole place and send teachers to a prison or labour camp!" statement.

For us, kids of the 90s these were very normal everyday thoughts and nobody relaly ever planned to actually kill anyone or have any sot of serious notions of blowing a school up. We hated it though. I assume it was exactly the same over in the USA, so I would not attach too much meaning into some random kids or TCM members saying that they would blow anything up. That's regular student talk imho.


Now, back to serious issues: NBK first explicitly appears in Dylan's writings from 2nd February 1998. However Dylan has "typical cryptic Dylan" statements about death from way back in 1997. One very big statement was written without a date, but it is between the 5-7-1997 and 7-23-1997 entries, so probably late May 1997 to early July 1997.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Good things turn bad, bad things become good, the 'people' on the earth see it as a battle they can win. HA fuckin morons. If people looked at History, they would see what happens. I think, too much, I understand, I am GOD compared to some of these un-existable, brainless zombies. Yet, the actions of them interest me, like a kid w. a new toy. Another contrast, more of a paradox, actually, like the advanced go for the undevelopeds realm, while some of the morons become everything dwellers - but, exceptions to every rule, & this is a BIG exception - most morons never change - they never decide to live in the 'everything' frame of mind.
I think this entry is vital.

Not because it is just angry and full ofhate, but it contains the key word Dylan would continue to use and always link to the masscare - "zombies". This was Dylan's way of dehumanizing "everyday life people", somethign he would later share with Eric.

Dylan is cryptic so we can't be sure when he first started havign fantasies about killing large numebrs of people, but we are getting very disturbing contect from summer 1997 using the same key words he would use later on with regard to the actual massacre.

Then we have his entry for 10-14-1997:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Another form of the Downward Spiral... deeper & deeper it goes. to cuddle w. her, to be one w. her, to love; just laying there. I need a gun. (...) Peace might be the ultimate destination... destination unknown... i want happiness. Abandonment is present for the martyr. (...) No emotions. not caring.
yet another stage in this
shit life. suicide... Dylan Klebold.

Uncharacteristiclaly clear and non-Dylan-cryptic message. He is thinking about suicide and writes about it openly. Most teenagers think about suicide long before they write about it or start to tlak about it. also, doe sthis entry remind you of someone?
For me this is like what Cho would later say.

And we get the 11-3-1997 entry:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[edited] will get me a gun, ill go on my killing spree against anyone I want. more crazy...deeper in the spiral, lost highway repeating (...)
You cannot get it more clear from Dylan than this. In Novemeber 1997 he is already writing openly abotu a killing spree, so its almost certain he thougth about it before he wrote about it.

Dylan's entry at 2-2-1998 openly mentions NBK.

In contrst, Eric's writing only starts in April 1998.

My impression here is very clear, though I can only give approximate time frames:
1) Dylan had suicidal thoughts through 1997
2) Sometimes between summer 1997 and November 1997 Dylan started having fantasies of a spree killing.
3) While I cannot be sure when did Dylan introduce Eric to his spree-killing fantasy world, but I think our best be is taht it is after the January 1998 van brake in. this seems to have been a turning point as far as their mutual trust and mutual bond goes.

Eric was already angry, hating evryday life, hating the wa society works. Eric fet like he was in a cage and he was lookign for a way out. But imho it was clearly Dylan who showed Eric a way out that would be acceptable to Eric.

Then Eric made actual plans and realistic steps that in the end turned Dylan's fantasy into Eric's very real "feet-on-the-ground" massacre.

That's my assessent.

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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:34 pm

Well thought-out analysis - the best I've seen on this topic. The evidence is pointing toward Dylan as the first to have the idea of a mass shooting, although not necessarily with Eric. Not sure if we can know whether Eric contributed the idea of focusing on CHS.
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Nirvana92

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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:05 pm

Now that we've established it was Dylan who expressed homicidal urges when do you think the plan was agreed on between them? Was the idea of the plan built up over months/years, or was it a quick decision between them? I sometimes wonder if there ever was a specific conversation about doing the shooting. I think it built slowly over time and at a certain point they both mutually knew each other were serious about doing it. There's a line in Zero Day before the shooting scene that goes like "I couldn't have done this without you. We didnt even have to say anything to each other about doing this. We both just knew." I could definitely see something like that happening.
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:42 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Now that we've established it was Dylan who expressed homicidal urges when do you think the plan was agreed on between them? Was the idea of the plan built up over months/years, or was it a quick decision between them? I sometimes wonder if there ever was a specific conversation about doing the shooting. I think it built slowly over time and at a certain point they both mutually knew each other were serious about doing it. There's a line in Zero Day before the shooting scene that goes like "I couldn't have done this without you. We didnt even have to say anything to each other about doing this. We both just knew." I could definitely see something like that happening.  

Very hard to say with the info we have available now. My best guess is that the general plan was hatched in the early months of 1998 and then developped into the plan we all know throuought 1998.

We have pointers that the earlier versions of the plan was different. I know wone of them at some point mentions taht they previously believed they could be able to obtain an FN minimi for example.

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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:41 pm

I was reading through Eric's journal today when I noticed something that had never really stuck out at me before:

" but me, I see all... you can only blind me for so long. but alas, I have realized that Yes, the human race is still indeed doomed. It just needs a few kick starts, like me, and hell, maybe even [CENSORED]. If can whipe a few cities off the map, and even the fuckhead Holding the map, then great. hmm, just thinking if I want ALL humans dead or maybe just the quote-unquote "civilized, developed, and known-of" places on Earth. maybe leave little tribes of natives in the rain forest er something. hmm, I'll think about that. eh. done for tonight -REB- 6/13/98"

Who is the censored person he's talking about? At first I assumed Dylan, but why would they need to censor his name of all people? That doesn't make sense. Every time they write about each other in their names are left intact. My next assumption was Brooks Brown since his name had been censored in other parts of Eric's writings. It doesn't much fit with what Eric seems to be talking about though. Which of course leads me to believe he could be talking about another shooting partner. This would mean the shooting wasnt completely set in stone at least 10 months before NBK. I know Dylan had written about him and Zack doing a shooting, but I'd always figured Eric only trusted Dylan to do it with. Does anyone have any info on the censored name? I've only read the one transcript, so maybe it isn't censored on others.
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:34 pm

It was all Dylan's idea. Period. Eric latched on to it. Cullen is a moron, we all know this.

First off Dylan mentions going on a shooting rampage in his journal long before Eric ever does.

11-3-97
"Some god i am... All people i ever might have loved have abandoned me, my parents piss me off & hate me... want me to have fuckin ambition!! How can i when i get screwed & destroyed By everything??!!!! I have no money, no happiness, no friends... Eric will be getting farther away soon... I'll have less than nothing... how normal. I wanted to love... i wanted to be happy and ambitious and free & nice & good & ignorant.... everyone abandoned me.... i have small stupid pleasures,... my so called hobbies & doings.... those are all thats left for me. < clinging onto the smallest rocks... many people climbing up a never-ending vertical cliff.... [edited] & [edited] found a plateau to exist on....they walked up me to get to it. Nobody will help me... only exist w. me if it suits them. i helped, why cant they? [edited] will get me a gun, ill go on my killing spree against anyone I want. more crazy...deeper in the spiral, lost highway repeating, dwelling on the beautiful past, ([edited] & [edited] gettin drunk) w. me, everyone moves up i always stayed. Abandonment. this room sux. wanna die."

No mention of Eric and I going on a spree, just himself. There is mention of Eric moving farther away though. Eric doesn't mention killing until after their arrest.

Obviously Dylan's urge to commit suicide was the reason for all of this. Eric was just angry about an unknown thing we will never know about, because he's dead.

Yes, it was Dylan's idea. The End.


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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:38 pm

Chris Morris also mentions Dylan "throwing out" the idea of shooting at the school with a group of trenchcoat mafia members. To which they laughed and thought he was joking.

It should also be interesting to note that Eric mentions leaving Napalm in the freezer at "that certain persons house" before NBK. I wonder who that certain person is.....and they've never been questioned or caught over this.
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:04 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I was reading through Eric's journal today when I noticed something that had never really stuck out at me before:

" but me, I see all... you can only blind me for so long. but alas, I have realized that Yes, the human race is still indeed doomed. It just needs a few kick starts, like me, and hell, maybe even [CENSORED]. If can whipe a few cities off the map, and even the fuckhead Holding the map, then great. hmm, just thinking if I want ALL humans dead or maybe just the quote-unquote "civilized, developed, and known-of" places on Earth. maybe leave little tribes of natives in the rain forest er something. hmm, I'll think about that. eh. done for tonight -REB- 6/13/98"

Who is the censored person he's talking about?
Its not Dylan, that's for sure. We will nver know who it was. Perhaps it was Eric Veik? I rememebr in an interview years after columbine Veik stated that when the police showed him the "shit list", Veik thought that its not surprising that these names appeared there and in the interview said something to the extent of: "The people who had names on the shit list were pretty horrible people, nobody liked them". So Veik shared some of the personal animosities that Eric Harris had.

But this is pure speculation on my part.

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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:07 am

Where do ideas come from? From the brain! I believe maybe the idea was chatted about amongst other normal Boy bullshittery-Excuse my French. Every Teenager-boy has ideas of killing and mayhem. Lets just call them the OUTCASTs at columbine had a rather off colour warped sense of humour. Case point class photo holding up imaginary guns. So talking about blowing up or killing is normal as what you had to eat for lunch. Maybe originally the idea was like a fart. Everyone has those. Then it germinated in Dlyan's mind. But have read a bit of Dylan's Journal. I believe it was his idea "enough" to raise it to my battle buddy. I also read somewhere originally he wanted a girl to go and kill with him like in the movie Natural Born Killers. He had this dare I say its their fault. No body loves me. They zombies and dumb. I wanna also die mentality. He was the dreamer. Harris was the tactician. Eric as you know hated people as well. A partnership made in hell I guess. There is a saying you are the company you keep!
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:43 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Chris Morris also mentions Dylan "throwing out" the idea of shooting at the school with a group of trenchcoat mafia members. To which they laughed and thought he was joking.

It should also be interesting to note that Eric mentions leaving Napalm in the freezer at "that certain persons house" before NBK. I wonder who that certain person is.....and they've never been questioned or caught over this.

Uh, yes I want more people talking about this! I know Chris said Eric asked to store explosives at his house but he said he wouldn't. I had my speculations about Kristi being involved based on Eric saying the Napalm better not freeze and then writing to Kristi about staying away from the frostys cause they might explode.

I'd like to know what he meant with that.

Isn't there any records on wether the laundry detergent Eric bought was found in the school?
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:14 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


Uh, yes I want more people talking about this! I know Chris said Eric asked to store explosives at his house but he said he wouldn't. I had my speculations about Kristi being involved based on Eric saying the Napalm better not freeze and then writing to Kristi about staying away from the frostys cause they might explode.  

I'd like to know what he meant with that.

Isn't there any records on wether the laundry detergent Eric bought was found in the school?


I have always thought Kristi and a few others knew a little more then was ever admitted to. They probably didn't know about the entire plan, or what the ultimate end goal was, but clearly some knew something was coming.

Most likely everyone thought it was for a Senior Prank.

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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:22 pm

In a mothers reckoning do you remember if the line about the senior prank was “Dylan said they were planning on doing a senior prank” or did Dylan say “we are planning to do a senior prank involving the whole school”? I bet that’s how they framed it when they were asking their friends to do all the stuff. Maybe a senior prank or maybe just goofing around
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PostSubject: Re: who's idea was NBK?   Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:10 pm

I'm not sure how the whole Senior prank thing was brought up. Either it was hinted at or Sue and Tom thought Dylan said something they mistook as a hint at a possible prank. scratch

Now their closer friends are a different story. I truly think some of them knew that something was going to happen, not that people were going to be hurt or killed. BUT that some sort of stunt was being planned out.

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