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 Fate of their souls ?

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 2:51 pm

@browneyes11 wrote:

The Christian "God", just about as loving and forgiving as E/D themselves

The irony of "we will be like gods".

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 3:15 pm

asdf12345 wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

The Christian "God", just about as loving and forgiving as E/D themselves

The irony of "we will be like gods".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

"I try to settle problems in a mature, non-violent manner"

Rolling Eyes way to go

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 3:33 pm

confused pale thread sneaker

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 9:19 pm

Yes, he did. But I believe they went immediately to Heaven. I believe that any infant and child who dies goes to Heaven and is safe with Jesus. I never heard they were supposed to have went to Hell.
God knows all and he does things and allows things for reasons that we can't understand or won't be able to see until we go to the Kingdom ourselves. There, God says that we will understand everything. If you don't have faith in Him or believe in him, all this will likely seem like empty platitudes, but if you believe and have faith, then you understand that he knows all and is in control.


I don't believe that it states in the Bible that Absalom went to Hell. There has been some speculation by man that he did but I talk much of that with a grain of salt. The fate of Judas is not even known for sure.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I believe in the Christian way too, but Eric and Dylan were just kids.
If God would send them to Hell, would he send a 15 and 16 year old? Or a 13 and 14 year old?

Not a big expert, but didn't christian God kill the firstborn sons of all egyptians, explicitly stating that this also including the children of egyptian slaves who were powerless in the whole policital affair?

So if the christian God can send the firstborn sons of egyptian slaves to hell and torture them for eternity there (I'm sure some of said sons must have been teens or smaller kids), why wouldn't he send Eric and Dylan to hell?

Also IIRC thre were other cases of God killing and sending to hell teenagers, like Absalom the rebel son of the king.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 9:23 pm

It does not say that anywhere in the Bible, although I do believe God is against suicide. There is again only speculation by mankind. People who commit suicide are almost always in extreme despair and hopeless and while I can't say for sure, I believe that God will be a lot more merciful than a lot of people think.



Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
Aren't people who kill themselves meant to go to hell?

The old murder/ suicide could end up with them being doubly punished.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 9:28 pm

I cannot agree with this. I have firsthand experience with God moving in my life and being merciful to me plenty of times when I was underserving of it, or at least I certainly felt that I was underserving.
If you develop any kind of a relationship with him God becomes real and personal to you.
But I know I can't convince you or anyone who doesn't believe of this.



[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I believe in the Christian way too, but Eric and Dylan were just kids.
If God would send them to Hell, would he send a 15 and 16 year old? Or a 13 and 14 year old?

Not a big expert, but didn't christian God kill the firstborn sons of all egyptians, explicitly stating that this also including the children of egyptian slaves who were powerless in the whole policital affair?

So if the christian God can send the firstborn sons of egyptian slaves to hell and torture them for eternity there (I'm sure some of said sons must have been teens or smaller kids), why wouldn't he send Eric and Dylan to hell?

Also IIRC thre were other cases of God killing and sending to hell teenagers, like Absalom the rebel son of the king.

The Christian "God", just about as loving and forgiving as E/D themselves
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 9:53 pm

I'm surprised it took until the second page for this thread to descend into a religion/atheist shitfight.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 10:16 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm surprised it took until the second page for this thread to descend into a religion/atheist shitfight.

I don't want to argue the subject. I understand why people believe in "God". And I think for some people religion is a good thing.
However, personally I have only had bad experiences with religion. I'm just giving my own opinion. My own views of religion tend to be rather cynical.

So if I've offended anyone, I apologize. That was not my intent.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 10:24 pm


You didn't offend me. I also am not trying to push my religious beliefs on anyone, only explain what I believe and why.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm surprised it took until the second page for this thread to descend into a religion/atheist shitfight.

I don't want to argue the subject. I understand why people believe in "God". And I think for some people religion is a good thing.
However, personally I have only had bad experiences with religion. I'm just giving my own opinion. My own views of religion tend to be rather cynical.

So if I've offended anyone, I apologize. That was not my intent.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 10:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It does not say that anywhere in the Bible, although I do believe God is against suicide. There is again only speculation by mankind. People who commit suicide are almost always in extreme despair and hopeless and while I can't say for sure, I believe that God will be a lot more merciful than a lot of people think.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I cannot agree with this. I have firsthand experience with God moving in my life and being merciful to me plenty of times when I was underserving of it, or at least I certainly felt that I was underserving.
If you develop any kind of a relationship with him God becomes real and personal to you.
But I know I can't convince you or anyone who doesn't believe of this.

I believe the same, PaintItBlack. I felt very close to God and Jesus Christ as a small child. Then, in my early teens, I actually started to question God, and I went through a bit of a long phase where I claimed He didn't exist. I was trying to convince myself of this. It was a period when my parents were actually trying to force me to attend religious classes and church. And it was that poisonous religious environment that created this situation when it comes to me.

I came back to Him on my own. I would find myself crying out to Him during both good and bad times. And some may try to say that is because it was ingrained behavior due to the religious things I was exposed to as a child and teenager. No. That religious propaganda and ritual all felt forced and unnatural, and that's why I ran from God and tried to deny Him.

Talking to Him and crying out for Him years later was entirely pure; inherently part of my soul. It is real, it is like breathing. I do not identify with or classify myself as a part of any religion. I don't believe in religion whatsoever. I trust in God, I know God, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I am not embarrassed or ashamed to say that in front of anyone and never will be.

I also agree that we cannot know what He will do, how He will judge, or why things happen.


These passages reflect the primary points you're discussing, PaintItBlack (in my opinion):

Psalm 118:8 - "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."

and

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths."



I know many people do not like this subject, and do not remotely believe in or agree with the views PaintItBlack, others, and myself have about God.

I also know I'm continuing to derail the thread somewhat, and for that, I apologize.

But I wanted to share this, particularly with PaintItBlack, because I agree with everything she has said concerning this, I have gone through similar situations spiritually, and I want to support her regarding this.

Please do continue your debates, however. Thank you for keeping it respectful despite having drastically different views, and please continue to keep it respectful. Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Fri May 29, 2015 11:17 pm

I think religious debates are a waste of time. I'd much rather debate about what's healthy for you and your body than debate about whether or not you'll have 7 wives in the after life. Think about this though, for all the people you believe to be in hell, I'm pretty sure they probably felt like they were already there. Boom!
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat May 30, 2015 4:11 am

I think that religious debates can be a waste of time. Mostly they are, but if you are respectful of both sides opinions then its can be done with respect. I find there is no point trying to prove ones belief to another person because nobody would ever want to admit defeat or be proven wrong. So I think the best way is to discuss the other persons points rather than have and endless debate.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat May 30, 2015 9:23 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think that religious debates can be a waste of time. Mostly they are, but if you are respectful of both sides opinions then its can be done with respect. I find there is no point trying to prove ones belief to another person because nobody would ever want to admit defeat or be proven wrong. So I think the best way is to discuss the other persons points rather than have and endless debate.  

I agree on everything you have said /written . I simply wanted to hear your opinions and views , with no judgement . We all can learn something new by including different opinions of one another .Personally i find it interesting to hear other peoples opinions ,i know that no one can know the right and true answer about the question i asked that is normal and ok Smile i m glad you all shared your thoughts ,you still can of course ,i m glad you respect one another i do not wish for fights on this theme as kindness makes the world better place . flower cherry sunny


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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat May 30, 2015 9:28 am

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I am glad you said you pray for the family I think they need it and it can only do good for them .

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Everything that's realistic has some sort of ugliness in it. Even a flower is ugly when it wilts, a bird when it seeks its prey, the ocean when it becomes violent.- Sharon Tate

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat May 30, 2015 11:48 am

Sabritha... I want to read more about the levels of hell... I have tried searching but can't find anything as descriptive as you posted
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat May 30, 2015 12:01 pm

@deathmedic wrote:
Sabritha... I want to read more about the levels of hell... I have tried searching but can't find anything as descriptive as you posted

See Dante's "Divine Comedy"

gutenberg.org/files/8800/8800-h/8800-h.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat May 30, 2015 1:14 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think that religious debates can be a waste of time. Mostly they are, but if you are respectful of both sides opinions then its can be done with respect. I find there is no point trying to prove ones belief to another person because nobody would ever want to admit defeat or be proven wrong. So I think the best way is to discuss the other persons points rather than have and endless debate.  

exactly. well put

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat May 30, 2015 1:49 pm

They're in a place where they're constantly being hunted by other humans. When they "die," they are transported to a different scenario, and the game begins again. They cannot use weapons themselves. What fun.

My actual answer is that I don't believe they're anywhere at all because I don't believe in souls.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun May 31, 2015 11:06 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Weird thing, however, is that I don't necessarily believe in a soul.

I've often wondered too, what is a soul exactly? And if we (humans) have a soul, doesn't every living organism have a soul?
I was raise to be a "fire and brim stone" Southern Baptist. But as I grew older I struggled with religion because they could never answer my questions
Such as, "Do animals have souls?" "Will I see my dead pets in heaven?" "If God is all knowing and all forgiving, then why is there a hell?""

Personally, I don't understand the concept of having a soul. I guess it's comforting to believe that there's a small part of us that will live on after death.

It is strange that Dylan believed in an afterlife, yet wasn't the least bit concerned about hell. I think it's safe to say E/D didn't believe in heaven or hell.
I assume that Dylan hated his life to such a degree that it didn't matter what his afterlife would be like. He just wanted to die.


To me the soul is what makes you YOU. The meat that you inhabit isn't you, you are really just the electrical charge flowing from neuron to neuron. I've heard energy can't be destroyed, it just changes form. That means when you die the part that is you will continue on in some form. Whether its heaven, hell, Purgatory, or whatever is up to personal beliefs. I don't think death is the end though.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun May 31, 2015 11:53 am

Some folk seem to believe God won't punish children but will adults.

I wonder if Eric got sent to Hell and Dylan got to go to Heaven with him still being 17?

I can imagine them both queuing up together to see where they are being sent and Eric feeling somewhat hard done to for missing out on Heaven by a week or so.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun May 31, 2015 6:19 pm

They were actually both reborn via reincarnation as Noah Cyrus and Frankie Jonas in 2000.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun May 31, 2015 6:21 pm

@Nirvana92 wrote:
To me the soul is what makes you YOU.
All I can say is I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly shallow understanding of what's really a mesmerizing phenomenon of personality. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun May 31, 2015 8:08 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
"I try to settle problems in a mature, non-violent manner"

Rolling Eyes way to go

QFT!

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun May 31, 2015 11:40 pm

asdf12345 wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
To me the soul is what makes you YOU.
All I can say is I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly shallow understanding of what's really a mesmerizing phenomenon of personality. Sad

I've got to agree with you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I've heard that said before and I just don't get it. What makes you "YOU" is your personality.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:23 am

I mean, I can understand if someone doesn't know how the brain works, and explains it with "there's a magic Casper thingy sitting inside of me", but to me that would mean not even trying to grasp the incredible process of how ones personality forms, how it functions, makes decisions...

And it's ok really - it's a very difficult thing to grasp.

But if you're going as far as to simplify it like that, why bother with questions about Columbine at all, all the facts and evidence - you can say it was all Satan and demons and bad voodoo, and be done with it. You have all the answers already.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:06 pm

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It is strange that Dylan believed in an afterlife, yet wasn't the least bit concerned about hell.

Dylan's seemingly lack of concern for the possible prospect of hell might have to do with his Jewish heritage. The concept of hell in Judaism is quite different from Christianity and Islam. No eternal suffering. I know he wasn't raised in faith, but the family did observe some Jewish rituals. Sue strikes me as the sort of mom who didn't want to instill fear in her children.

I'm not an expert by any means, but basically, the Jewish God is far more forgiving. The wicked dead are sent to Gehinnom, which is a place of spiritual purification. According to most sources the period of punishment/cleansing is only limited to 12 months, after which the soul may enter heaven. Truly bad people that prove to be uncleansable are perished and cease to exist even as souls.

This might be one of the things Dylan was taught by Sue and it influenced his thinking. When you consider this, he got nothing to lose or be scared about. What is 12 months of pain compared to an eternity of joy and bliss?  He was already suffering longer on earth anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
asdf12345 wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

The Christian "God", just about as loving and forgiving as E/D themselves

The irony of "we will be like gods".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

"I try to settle problems in a mature, non-violent manner"

Rolling Eyes way to go

First of all, this is over 2 years before the shooting and even if Eric was an impulsive, self-glorifying manipulator that he was later, he certainly had not ben planning a shooting back in 1996.

Plus its a school assignment the topic is already selected for you and you need to adjust your thesis and wording to comply with it. Doesn't have to be true, just has to be good writing (or at least ok according to your teacher).

So yeah, always keep this in mind when trying to analize their school writings. Cause its easy to read too much into what might just have been "conforming to the nature of the task given".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Yes, he did. But I believe they went immediately to Heaven. I believe that any infant and child who dies goes to Heaven and is safe with Jesus. I never heard they were supposed to have went to Hell.

According to long-standing christian doctrine, all unbaptised non-jewish people who died before christ were sent to be tortured in hell (or limbo in the specific catholic sect of christianity). As far as i know, catholics have abolished the belief in limbo somewhere in the latter parts of the 20th centry and now are just ambiguous about the whole thing. Most protestants as well as orthodox christians just go with the "simply hell" option afaik. But it of course differs, as christianity has a lot of sects that have various opinions on various issues.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I don't believe that it states in the Bible that Absalom went to Hell. There has been some speculation by man that he did but I talk much of that with a grain of salt. The fate of Judas is not even known for sure.
The Bible itself doesn't really firmly mention hell at all, aside from the letters of the apostles and the apocalypse of St.John. Its really all secondary doctrine, church fathers, famous rabbis, Martin Luther and what have you.

By the same coin: Its never mentiond in the bible that christian/jewish God does not send infants and teens to hell.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Sabritha... I want to read more about the levels of hell... I have tried searching but can't find anything as descriptive as you posted

Start by not misspelling my name why don't you ;)

As for the source, happy to oblige. Check out this guy:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

He's a westerner writing for westerners and imho he does a good job of going through most of the basics. He is describing the mahayana buddhist japanese take on all of this, especially from the point of the Tendai sect iirc. Either way its a clear and good read imho.

asdf12345 wrote:
I mean, I can understand if someone doesn't know how the brain works, and explains it with "there's a magic Casper thingy sitting inside of me", but to me that would mean not even trying to grasp the incredible process of how ones personality forms, how it functions, makes decisions...

And it's ok really - it's a very difficult thing to grasp.

But if you're going as far as to simplify it like that, why bother with questions about Columbine at all, all the facts and evidence - you can say it was all Satan and demons and bad voodoo, and be done with it. You have all the answers already.

Well, I could say that Buddhism agrees with modern neuropsychology on almost everything in this respect. It has been a long standing belief in many (if not most) Buddhist secs that personality, memories, learned behaviors and so forth are tied with the body and they are all gone with the death of the body.

Moreover, buddhism would go further and say that these all disappear slowly with each moment in one's life. We gain new memories, while we forget old ones. We change our beliefs. Our personality changes. Are we the same people we were years ago? Buddhism would say no. The concept of an unchanging self, an "ego" is just a myth, an illusion buddhism would say. Change is real, "self" is not.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Dylan's seemingly lack of concern for the possible prospect of hell might have to do with his Jewish heritage.

I very strongly dobt this. Dyln was raised chistian, not jewish. While he certainly knew some tenants of judaism just by living with his mom and going to family meetings, we don't see any evidence of him expressing any sort of belief in judaism.

I get your point on sue Klebold, but I do think Dylan's own thoughts and beliefs are self-contained and a mish mash of his own hermetic notions (halycons and whatnot). Seeing his schizotypal tendencies, I think its a much more probable bet that he is creating his own spiritual code of beliefs, without an overly strong reliance on existing religions.




Sheesh! Gone fishin' for a few days with hicks in the sticks who have no internet and I already end up making a monster-quote-reply on day 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:37 pm

tfsa,
Thank you for the support. I'm grateful for it. I've never spoken about this here before because if someone doesn't believe it sounds like a bunch of crazy superstition and its not something I can prove but I believe that E &D were highly influenced or controlled by the powers of darkness when they did this. And that is a big reason why it happened. Again, I know many people here will scoff and laugh at such a notion and that's ok.
If I didn't believe or have had the experiences I've had ,I'd probably think it was nonsense too.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It does not say that anywhere in the Bible, although I do believe God is against suicide. There is again only speculation by mankind. People who commit suicide are almost always in extreme despair and hopeless and while I can't say for sure, I believe that God will be a lot more merciful than a lot of people think.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I cannot agree with this. I have firsthand experience with God moving in my life and being merciful to me plenty of times when I was underserving of it, or at least I certainly felt that I was underserving.
If you develop any kind of a relationship with him God becomes real and personal to you.
But I know I can't convince you or anyone who doesn't believe of this.

I believe the same, PaintItBlack. I felt very close to God and Jesus Christ as a small child. Then, in my early teens, I actually started to question God, and I went through a bit of a long phase where I claimed He didn't exist. I was trying to convince myself of this. It was a period when my parents were actually trying to force me to attend religious classes and church. And it was that poisonous religious environment that created this situation when it comes to me.

I came back to Him on my own. I would find myself crying out to Him during both good and bad times. And some may try to say that is because it was ingrained behavior due to the religious things I was exposed to as a child and teenager. No. That religious propaganda and ritual all felt forced and unnatural, and that's why I ran from God and tried to deny Him.

Talking to Him and crying out for Him years later was entirely pure; inherently part of my soul. It is real, it is like breathing. I do not identify with or classify myself as a part of any religion. I don't believe in religion whatsoever. I trust in God, I know God, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I am not embarrassed or ashamed to say that in front of anyone and never will be.

I also agree that we cannot know what He will do, how He will judge, or why things happen.


These passages reflect the primary points you're discussing, PaintItBlack (in my opinion):

Psalm 118:8 - "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."

and

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths."



I know many people do not like this subject, and do not remotely believe in or agree with the views PaintItBlack, others, and myself have about God.

I also know I'm continuing to derail the thread somewhat, and for that, I apologize.

But I wanted to share this, particularly with PaintItBlack, because I agree with everything she has said concerning this, I have gone through similar situations spiritually, and I want to support her regarding this.

Please do continue your debates, however. Thank you for keeping it respectful despite having drastically different views, and please continue to keep it respectful. Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:43 pm

Excellent post. I'm very much agreed. I know that I have and others have a soul. I can't really put it into words or at least not the words that would convince someone who doesn't believe but if you are aware of your soul, you can literally feel it at times. Or at least that's been my experience.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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Weird thing, however, is that I don't necessarily believe in a soul.

I've often wondered too, what is a soul exactly? And if we (humans) have a soul, doesn't every living organism have a soul?
I was raise to be a "fire and brim stone" Southern Baptist. But as I grew older I struggled with religion because they could never answer my questions
Such as, "Do animals have souls?" "Will I see my dead pets in heaven?" "If God is all knowing and all forgiving, then why is there a hell?""

Personally, I don't understand the concept of having a soul. I guess it's comforting to believe that there's a small part of us that will live on after death.

It is strange that Dylan believed in an afterlife, yet wasn't the least bit concerned about hell. I think it's safe to say E/D didn't believe in heaven or hell.
I assume that Dylan hated his life to such a degree that it didn't matter what his afterlife would be like. He just wanted to die.


To me the soul is what makes you YOU. The meat that you inhabit isn't you, you are really just the electrical charge flowing from neuron to neuron. I've heard energy can't be destroyed, it just changes form. That means when you die the part that is you will continue on in some form. Whether its heaven, hell, Purgatory, or whatever is up to personal beliefs. I don't think death is the end though.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:54 pm

I don't think someone magically becomes an adult in God's eyes because they turned 18 a few weeks before. In my eyes, Eric was still a kid when he died.
Some say the age of accountability is age 13 but I'm skeptical about this.
So much of what people state with certainty about the Bible and God is actually their opinions or wishes.

I believe that there will be people in the Hell because the Bible tells me so but I wouldn't presume to say who those people will be or that will be the fate of any individual human being. It's not up to me and it's something I feel nobody has the right to do.
The gleeful damning of people to Hell a lot of people, including Christians do is so disturbing to me, and something I have such a hard time understanding.



Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
Some folk seem to believe God won't punish children but will adults.

I wonder if Eric got sent to Hell and Dylan got to go to Heaven with him still being 17?

I can imagine them both queuing up together to see where they are being sent and Eric feeling somewhat hard done to for missing out on Heaven by a week or so.
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