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 Fate of their souls ?

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PaintItBlack
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:19 am

I have never been taught the doctrine that people who lived before Christ were sent to Hell, or that unbaptized infants were sent there. In fact I believe that the Bible teaches that all adults who died before Christ will be given a chance in the Millennial reign to make a decision about following Christ.
I believe all Children who die will grow up in Heaven and be under God's care and likely be saved forever.

Christ actually did speak of Hell as a reality. He spoke of it more than he spoke of Heaven.
It is spoken of much in Matthew and Mark. These are the recorded words of Christ.
I know he would not have spoken of such if it were not real and he wasn't trying to warn people.


Sabratha wrote:
browneyes11 wrote:
asdf12345 wrote:
browneyes11 wrote:

The Christian "God", just about as loving and forgiving as E/D themselves

The irony of "we will be like gods".

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"I try to settle problems in a mature, non-violent manner"

Rolling Eyes way to go

First of all, this is over 2 years before the shooting and even if Eric was an impulsive, self-glorifying manipulator that he was later, he certainly had not ben planning a shooting back in 1996.

Plus its a school assignment the topic is already selected for you and you need to adjust your thesis and wording to comply with it. Doesn't have to be true, just has to be good writing (or at least ok according to your teacher).

So yeah, always keep this in mind when trying to analize their school writings. Cause its easy to read too much into what might just have been "conforming to the nature of the task given".

PaintItBlack wrote:
Yes, he did. But I believe they went immediately to Heaven. I believe that any infant and child who dies goes to Heaven and is safe with Jesus. I never heard they were supposed to have went to Hell.

According to long-standing christian doctrine, all unbaptised non-jewish people who died before christ were sent to be tortured in hell (or limbo in the specific catholic sect of christianity). As far as i know, catholics have abolished the belief in limbo somewhere in the latter parts of the 20th centry and now are just ambiguous about the whole thing. Most protestants as well as orthodox christians just go with the "simply hell" option afaik. But it of course differs, as christianity has a lot of sects that have various opinions on various issues.

PaintItBlack wrote:
I don't believe that it states in the Bible that Absalom went to Hell. There has been some speculation by man that he did but I talk much of that with a grain of salt. The fate of Judas is not even known for sure.
The Bible itself doesn't really firmly mention hell at all, aside from the letters of the apostles and the apocalypse of St.John. Its really all secondary doctrine, church fathers, famous rabbis, Martin Luther and what have you.

By the same coin: Its never mentiond in the bible that christian/jewish God does not send infants and teens to hell.

deathmedic wrote:
Sabritha... I want to read more about the levels of hell... I have tried searching but can't find anything as descriptive as you posted

Start by not misspelling my name why don't you ;)

As for the source, happy to oblige. Check out this guy:

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He's a westerner writing for westerners and imho he does a good job of going through most of the basics. He is describing the mahayana buddhist japanese take on all of this, especially from the point of the Tendai sect iirc. Either way its a clear and good read imho.

asdf12345 wrote:
I mean, I can understand if someone doesn't know how the brain works, and explains it with "there's a magic Casper thingy sitting inside of me", but to me that would mean not even trying to grasp the incredible process of how ones personality forms, how it functions, makes decisions...

And it's ok really - it's a very difficult thing to grasp.

But if you're going as far as to simplify it like that, why bother with questions about Columbine at all, all the facts and evidence - you can say it was all Satan and demons and bad voodoo, and be done with it. You have all the answers already.

Well, I could say that Buddhism agrees with modern neuropsychology on almost everything in this respect. It has been a long standing belief in many (if not most) Buddhist secs that personality, memories, learned behaviors and so forth are tied with the body and they are all gone with the death of the body.

Moreover, buddhism would go further and say that these all disappear slowly with each moment in one's life. We gain new memories, while we forget old ones. We change our beliefs. Our personality changes. Are we the same people we were years ago? Buddhism would say no. The concept of an unchanging self, an "ego" is just a myth, an illusion buddhism would say. Change is real, "self" is not.

MegaloX wrote:

Dylan's seemingly lack of concern for the possible prospect of hell might have to do with his Jewish heritage.

I very strongly dobt this. Dyln was raised chistian, not jewish. While he certainly knew some tenants of judaism just by living with his mom and going to family meetings, we don't see any evidence of him expressing any sort of belief in judaism.

I get your point on sue Klebold, but I do think Dylan's own thoughts and beliefs are self-contained and a mish mash of his own hermetic notions (halycons and whatnot). Seeing his schizotypal tendencies, I think its a much more probable bet that he is creating his own spiritual code of beliefs, without an overly strong reliance on existing religions.




Sheesh! Gone fishin' for a few days with hicks in the sticks who have no internet and I already end up making a monster-quote-reply on day 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:23 am

Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they haven't went on an exhaustive search for truth. Isn't it a little prejudicial for you to assume they haven't?


asdf12345 wrote:
I mean, I can understand if someone doesn't know how the brain works, and explains it with "there's a magic Casper thingy sitting inside of me", but to me that would mean not even trying to grasp the incredible process of how ones personality forms, how it functions, makes decisions...

And it's ok really - it's a very difficult thing to grasp.

But if you're going as far as to simplify it like that, why bother with questions about Columbine at all, all the facts and evidence - you can say it was all Satan and demons and bad voodoo, and be done with it. You have all the answers already.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:47 pm

I don't know Paint. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but it's very difficult for me to believe a 17 and 18 year old who plotted for quite some time to wipe out nearly their entire school by setting off pipe bombs and when they failed to go off, they spontaneously resorted to randomly shooting whoever was in their path would have a red carpet rolled out for them to get to heaven, if there is a heaven.

Just saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:04 pm

That's thinking from a human perspective and the desire for vengeance. God doesn't think the way we do. His thoughts are different from our thoughts.
He truly sees a bigger picture that is impossible for us to view.



Sane One wrote:
I don't know Paint. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but it's very difficult for me to believe a 17 and 18 year old who plotted for quite some time to wipe out nearly their entire school by setting off pipe bombs and when they failed to go off, they spontaneously resorted to randomly shooting whoever was in their path would have a red carpet rolled out for them to get to heaven, if there is a heaven.

Just saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:58 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
tfsa,
Thank you for the support. I'm grateful for it. I've never spoken about this here before because if someone doesn't believe it sounds like a bunch of crazy superstition and its not something I can prove but I  believe that E &D were highly influenced or controlled by the powers of darkness when they did this. And that is a big reason why it happened. Again, I know many people here will scoff and laugh at such a notion and that's ok.
If I didn't believe or have had the experiences I've had ,I'd probably think it was nonsense too.

You're very, very welcome.

It can be incredibly difficult to discuss things of this nature for multiple reasons, including those you've mentioned.

"but I  believe that E &D were highly influenced or controlled by the powers of darkness when they did this. And that is a big reason why it happened."

I do as well.

Often times, extreme anger and hatred (regardless of how justified it may seem or actually is), is like a wide open window for such energies and forces to infiltrate someone, particularly when they're young and still learning who they are and what their soul's path is. It can happen to any of us at any age, but those who are younger are even more susceptible, in my opinion, experience, and observation.

"There's no comfort in rage. Rage feeds off the soul until there's no soul left." That is a quote from a show that aired in the late 90s through the early 2000s called "Oz", (by a character who was actually a nun who worked in a prison). I posted it [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] a year or so back.

I feel that linked quote encapsulates what I'm trying to get at here.

"Again, I know many people here will scoff and laugh at such a notion and that's ok. If I didn't believe or have had the experiences I've had ,I'd probably think it was nonsense too."

There was a time where I felt most of this was utter nonsense, too. I also tried to convince myself that it was foolish mythology when that nagging internal voice was telling me otherwise--for many, many years. But I was proven very wrong, and had that whole universe of denial I'd built around myself shattered. Ferociously. And I'm beyond thankful that it all happened.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:21 am

Very much agreed. For those who don't believe such thinks sound like ignorance ,superstition and so on, but for those who believe they know these evil powers are very much a reality.
I firmly belie that at the end E &D were more than just influenced. They were probably consumed by them. To others, it might sound as if that is only making excuses for E &D but I don't think so. That is my honest belief on what probably happened, but since I can't prove it I try to stick to the concrete things we know contributed such as anger ,depression and bullying in conversation.
You hit it right on the head when you talked about anger being the opening for these forces.
That's how it all started.


tfsa47090 wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
tfsa,
Thank you for the support. I'm grateful for it. I've never spoken about this here before because if someone doesn't believe it sounds like a bunch of crazy superstition and its not something I can prove but I  believe that E &D were highly influenced or controlled by the powers of darkness when they did this. And that is a big reason why it happened. Again, I know many people here will scoff and laugh at such a notion and that's ok.
If I didn't believe or have had the experiences I've had ,I'd probably think it was nonsense too.

You're very, very welcome.

It can be incredibly difficult to discuss things of this nature for multiple reasons, including those you've mentioned.

"but I  believe that E &D were highly influenced or controlled by the powers of darkness when they did this. And that is a big reason why it happened."

I do as well.

Often times, extreme anger and hatred (regardless of how justified it may seem or actually is), is like a wide open window for such energies and forces to infiltrate someone, particularly when they're young and still learning who they are and what their soul's path is. It can happen to any of us at any age, but those who are younger are even more susceptible, in my opinion, experience, and observation.

"There's no comfort in rage. Rage feeds off the soul until there's no soul left." That is a quote from a show that aired in the late 90s through the early 2000s called "Oz", (by a character who was actually a nun who worked in a prison). I posted it [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] a year or so back.

I feel that linked quote encapsulates what I'm trying to get at here.

"Again, I know many people here will scoff and laugh at such a notion and that's ok. If I didn't believe or have had the experiences I've had ,I'd probably think it was nonsense too."

There was a time where I felt most of this was utter nonsense, too. I also tried to convince myself that it was foolish mythology when that nagging internal voice was telling me otherwise--for many, many years. But I was proven very wrong, and had that whole universe of denial I'd built around myself shattered. Ferociously. And I'm beyond thankful that it all happened.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:52 pm

I don't disagree with them being angry and dark. I disagree with the notion that their in heaven (if there is heaven) sitting alongside people (for example) who lost a battle to cancer or even their victims. If you believe they are in the same place, why exactly would you want to believe in a place like that in the 1st place?
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:02 pm

I was in church today at a Christening and thought of Eric and Dylan when then vicar read a passage a bout how God would come to "judge the living and the dead".

I can't really see Eric and Dylan having a picnic with Mother Teresa in the Garden of Eden or wherever it is the good folk go once they perish.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:57 pm

Arnie ain't dead, son.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:14 pm

Why in the world wouldn't I want to go to such a place? All I want is to go to Heaven. I don't care who else is there. I only feel sad and sorry for all who want be there. I've heard people say things like "If a Jeff Dahmer or Ted Bundy goes to Heaven I don't want to go." That way of thinking makes zero sense to me.
Why wouldn't people just be happy they made it instead of complaining about others who did?
It won't be like that in Heaven. That is a human complaint .
People in Heaven will see the larger picture and won't be complaining because so and so made it and they don't want them there.


Sane One wrote:
I don't disagree with them being angry and dark. I disagree with the notion that their in heaven (if there is heaven) sitting alongside people (for example) who lost a battle to cancer or even their victims. If you believe they are in the same place, why exactly would you want to believe in a place like that in the 1st place?
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:30 pm


Yes, he will. You think they will be damned but according to the Bible there is a ton of other things that can potentially send you to Hell such as sex outside marriage, adultery ,lying, abusing alcohol or drugs, refusing to forgive, and just plain not being saved in Christ.
As far as good people go, the Bible says none are good in the sight of God. Only God is good. Humankind even the people who try their best are still going to sin. People don't go to Heaven because of their own goodness but because Of Christ's mercy and sacrifice.
Of course I'm not judging anyone. It's not place to say where anyone would go or even should go.
But all these things are in the Bible and they can be read by anyone. Nobody has to take my word for it.




Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
I was in church today at a Christening and thought of Eric and Dylan when then vicar read a passage a bout how God would come to "judge the living and the dead".

I can't really see Eric and Dylan having a picnic with Mother Teresa in the Garden of Eden or wherever it is the good folk go once they perish.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:31 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
People don't go to Heaven because of their own goodness but because Of Christ's mercy and sacrifice.

If this is true, wouldn't that mean that there's no hell? If people are judged by their actions, then some can be found more good than others and thus a basis for heaven and hell.

But, if what you say is true - that people go to heaven because of Christ's mercy and sacrifice, then it means everyone will go to heaven. Because Christ's mercy and sacrifice is a single component that is the same for all people. So all people should receive the same treatement in such case.


These sort of paradoxes are exactly why I was never a big fan of judeo-christian philosophy and theology. The world as we know it just doesn't seem to be compatible with the notion of an allmighty, all-mercifull single creator God.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:14 pm


The Bible and Christ said there is a Hell so yes, there is a Hell. As I said the Bible says that none are good compared to God's goodness and sinlessness:

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.


Mankind has been in a state of sin and spiritual corruption since the time of Adam in God's eyes. All sin no matter how hard they my try and God detests sin.
But through Christ's mercy and sacrifice those who believe in Him and his sacrifice can be saved. If it wasn't for Christ and his sacrifice all born would be damned to Hell. God sent Christ to Earth and Christ agreed to be sacrificed as the truly , unblemished lamb of God to offer mankind a way out.
To me, there is no paradox here. There are a lot that I don't understand and can't expect to understand while in the flesh but it all makes sense to me.
I think that after a person has studied and honestly sought the truth that you either accept God and his word or you don't. You trust in Him to have a reason for all things and to know all things while you cannot.

And it is more than just actions.
A person can also go to Hell for not believing in and rejecting Christ.


Now as far as Eric and Dylan goes the Bible states that one must have reached the edge of accountability before they can be held responsible for their sins and eternal destination .
People vary on the age but it is when a person has reached full emotional and intellectual maturity and I have severe doubts that E &D had reached that point.
I doubt that many people their age actually have. I know people will disagree with me but that is what I believe. To argue that E &D automatically went to Hell opens the door that victims from that day could have gone there as well because not every single person who died that day was a known as a dedicated Christian like Cassie and Rachel. And I don't believe that is true.


Sabratha wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
People don't go to Heaven because of their own goodness but because Of Christ's mercy and sacrifice.

If this is true, wouldn't that mean that there's no hell? If people are judged by their actions, then some can be found more good than others and thus a basis for heaven and hell.

But, if what you say is true - that people go to heaven because of Christ's mercy and sacrifice, then it means everyone will go to heaven. Because Christ's mercy and sacrifice is a single component that is the same for all people. So all people should receive the same treatement in such case.


These sort of paradoxes are exactly why I was never a big fan of judeo-christian philosophy and theology. The world as we know it just doesn't seem to be compatible with the notion of an allmighty, all-mercifull single creator God.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:46 am

PaintItBlack wrote:

The Bible and Christ said there is a Hell so yes, there is a Hell.
(...)
Mankind has been in a state of sin and spiritual corruption since the time of Adam in God's eyes. All sin  no matter how hard they my try and God detests sin.
But through Christ's mercy and sacrifice those who believe in Him and his sacrifice can be saved. If it wasn't for Christ and his sacrifice all born would be damned to Hell.

I fail to see this as a coherent set of beliefs, sorry.

If Christ's mercy and sacrifice is the only thing that prevents people from going to hell, then why do some people go to hell and others not? Shouldn't Christ's mercy and sacrifice affect everyone in equal fashion? If some people still go to hell, does that mean that Christ has less mercy and sacrificed himself less for these people, than he did for people who go to heaven?

One more thing - if God is allmighty, then he could have created man in any way he wants. Accoring to the bible, he decided to create man to be sinful and yet God "detests sin". Doesn't that make God not only hate his own work, but also purposely creating things he knows he will hate? What's the sense in that?

Is God a masochist of sorts? You know, like those people who deliberately seek out bad films to watch for the purpose of watching a poorly made film? That would be somewhat weird.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:19 pm

I was raised Christian though we were only actively in church off and on when I was fairly young so I never really studied the bible seriously. So what I know is from what I was raised to believe and what seems to be the general consensus of Christianity around here.

Most Christians I know don't technically believe being good or bad determines if you go to heaven or hell. Everyone sins and apparently one sin is as bad as any other in God's eyes, so it's not what determines if you go heaven or hell. It's all about accepting Jesus. So basically, people can go to heaven only because Jesus died for them to be able to go to heaven, but if you don't believe in Jesus and appreciate what he did, you're going to hell.

And you also have to ask forgiveness for your sins, which means you acknowledge they are sins and feel remorse. This is where all the talk of people going to hell because of actions comes from. People "living in sin" aren't trying to change their ways and seek forgiveness.

There is also the matter of being accountable. If you aren't capable of understanding the concept of accepting Jesus and repenting when you die you still get to go go heaven. Usually this is referring to children (but usually not teenagers).

That's the very basics of it all that I'd say most Christians I know in my area would agree with.

Going based on what I've been taught, Eric and Dylan would almost certainly be in hell. They would be old enough to be held accountable, and they probably didn't accept Jesus and ask forgiveness before they died. Also it's a pretty common belief that suicide automatically means hell anyway.

As far as God creating people to do things he doesn't like, I believe that is a combination of 1) blame Adam and Eve, who basically ruined everything for everyone and 2) God likes to give you challenges to make you appreciate life and grow closer to him for strength.

The standard response to questioning things about God is that it's not your place to understand. When I was young I struggled with understanding why you were supposed to do what God tells you to do basically because he's bigger and more powerful than you. I always thought it was kind of creepy, like what if God is just some random jerk, why should we just accept him? Because he said so or else.  I felt like we were all just in a doll house and God was playing with us. But I guess that's what you get going to Baptist churches where they mostly talk about fearing God and being tortured in hell for eternity if you don't accept Jesus.

I still struggle with what I believe now. I can't take the bible seriously, but I do believe in a higher power/creator/whatever. I guess that's agnostic theism? I'm not really concerned with what it's called, I don't think it's too important.

PaintItBlack wrote:

To argue that E &D automatically went to Hell opens the door that victims from that day could have gone there as well because not every single person who died that day was a known as a dedicated Christian like Cassie and Rachel. And I don't believe that is true.

PaintItBlack, I'm interested in knowing more about your beliefs as far as denomination or where your beliefs come from. Have you learned what you know and believe from a church or independent study yourself, or somewhere else? I'm asking only for curiosity's sake.

Again this is based on what I was personally taught, there would absolutely be the possibility that victims went to hell. Is the reason you disagree with that because of your beliefs on the age of accountability? That seems to be a key point we learned differently here.

I was 10 on 4/20/99. Christians were really into the thing of claiming Columbine victims were killed for believing in God. And I very distinctly remember being told to always answer "yes" when asked if you believe in God. Again, I was 10, being told that if a person held a gun to my head and asked if I believed in God, I had to say yes or go to hell.

This may sound silly but it honestly never occurred to me that someone would think  17/18 year olds hadn't reached the age of accountability... It was so ingrained in me from a young age I guess.


Edited to clarify that with my current state of beliefs I wouldn't try to claim to know where anyone ends up after they die. I tend to think most people don't deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity. I found the concept of being "paroled" from hell interesting because it was so much nicer than what I was taught.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:56 pm

I find it coherent, but if you look at it in a scientific type manner, it might not seem so.
There is nothing wrong with using log in spiritual beliefs. It's a big part of the process.
But in much of this you have to step out in faith. You walk by faith.
As I said before if you develop any kind of a relationship with God ,he becomes very real to you.
There will be times when you see prayers directly answered or events occur in your life that can't be explained away other than divine intervention.
I understand that non believers scoff at these ideas and call it magical thinking but a believer knows otherwise.

Besides I'm sure that non believers will find inconsistences in ANY faith if they looked .


The only other thing I can say is that God did not create man to be sinful.
Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve defied God's direct orders because Satan stirred up their pride and ignorance.
Adam and Eve had a paradise on Earth. They had no problems, no worries. Everything they needed was provided for them and they did the only thing God forbid them to do. God created mankind to love and fellowship with. He wants a relationship with everyone but does not force people to love him. That's why he gave us free will. And people often use that free will to do terrible things. Yes, God detests sin. He realizes that people will sin because of the fallen condition of the world. He wants people to come to him in repentance and turn away from their sins but many refuse to do that because they like their sin or don't think they are doing anything wrong.
No, I don't see God as a masochist at all.



Sabratha wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:

The Bible and Christ said there is a Hell so yes, there is a Hell.
(...)
Mankind has been in a state of sin and spiritual corruption since the time of Adam in God's eyes. All sin  no matter how hard they my try and God detests sin.
But through Christ's mercy and sacrifice those who believe in Him and his sacrifice can be saved. If it wasn't for Christ and his sacrifice all born would be damned to Hell.

I fail to see this as a coherent set of beliefs, sorry.

If Christ's mercy and sacrifice is the only thing that prevents people from going to hell, then why do some people go to hell and others not? Shouldn't Christ's mercy and sacrifice affect everyone in equal fashion? If some people still go to hell, does that mean that Christ has less mercy and sacrificed himself less for these people, than he did for people who go to heaven?

One more thing - if God is allmighty, then he could have created man in any way he wants. Accoring to the bible, he decided to create man to be sinful and yet God "detests sin". Doesn't that make God not only hate his own work, but also purposely creating things he knows he will hate? What's the sense in that?

Is God a masochist of sorts? You know, like those people who deliberately seek out bad films to watch for the purpose of watching a poorly made film? That would be somewhat weird.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:09 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
I find it coherent, but if you look at it in a scientific type manner, it might not seem so.
There is nothing wrong with using log in spiritual beliefs. It's a big part of the process.
But in much of this you have to step out in faith. You walk by faith.
As I said before if you develop any kind of a relationship with God ,he becomes very real to you.
There will be times when you see prayers directly answered or events occur in your life that can't be explained away other than divine intervention.
I understand that non believers scoff at these ideas and call it magical thinking but a believer knows otherwise.

Besides I'm sure that non believers will find inconsistences in ANY faith if they looked .


The only other thing I can say is that God did not create man to be sinful.
Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve defied God's  direct orders because Satan stirred up their pride and ignorance.
Adam and Eve had a paradise on Earth. They had no problems, no worries. Everything they needed was provided for them and they did the only thing God forbid them to do. God created mankind to love and fellowship with. He wants a relationship with everyone but does not force people to love him. That's why he gave us free will. And people often use that free will to do terrible things.   Yes, God detests sin. He realizes that people will sin because of the fallen condition of the world. He  wants people to  come to him in repentance and turn away from their sins but many refuse to do that because they like their sin or don't think they are doing anything wrong.
No, I don't see God as a masochist at all.

Sabratha wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:

The Bible and Christ said there is a Hell so yes, there is a Hell.
(...)
Mankind has been in a state of sin and spiritual corruption since the time of Adam in God's eyes. All sin  no matter how hard they my try and God detests sin.
But through Christ's mercy and sacrifice those who believe in Him and his sacrifice can be saved. If it wasn't for Christ and his sacrifice all born would be damned to Hell.

I fail to see this as a coherent set of beliefs, sorry.

If Christ's mercy and sacrifice is the only thing that prevents people from going to hell, then why do some people go to hell and others not? Shouldn't Christ's mercy and sacrifice affect everyone in equal fashion? If some people still go to hell, does that mean that Christ has less mercy and sacrificed himself less for these people, than he did for people who go to heaven?

One more thing - if God is allmighty, then he could have created man in any way he wants. Accoring to the bible, he decided to create man to be sinful and yet God "detests sin". Doesn't that make God not only hate his own work, but also purposely creating things he knows he will hate? What's the sense in that?

Is God a masochist of sorts? You know, like those people who deliberately seek out bad films to watch for the purpose of watching a poorly made film? That would be somewhat weird.


Everything you have been sharing is so profoundly moving, PaintItBlack. I cannot do it any justice by attempting to describe it in mere earthly words.

God is definitely working through you, and I agree with and have experienced everything you have said about Him.

A lot of the things you are discussing have also steered me back onto the right track; some things I've been slacking with, which we all do, and He knows we will all do this.

PaintItBlack wrote:
As I said before if you develop any kind of a relationship with God ,he becomes very real to you.
There will be times when you see prayers directly answered or events occur in your life that can't be explained away other than divine intervention.
I understand that non believers scoff at these ideas and call it magical thinking but a believer knows otherwise.

This has happened to me more times than I can even begin to try and count. And other situations within this vein are also happening to and for me through this thread and your posts alone, as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:19 pm

Most of what I have learned has been by independent study, listening to tv preachers, reading and so on.
I am not a member of a church at this time as I am not sure which domination is right for me.
I am the opposite of you.
I am not so sure why as young as they were, everybody is so positive they went to Hell.
Some say the age of accountability is age 13 but I'm not sure on that.
That would leave a lot of 13,14, 15 years olds eligible to go to Hell for simply not being saved.

So far most people have not been able to give me a reason for why they are so certain that E and D went to Hell other than they think that's what they deserve or they would like to see happen to them.


ellie z wrote:
I was raised Christian though we were only actively in church off and on when I was fairly young so I never really studied the bible seriously. So what I know is from what I was raised to believe and what seems to be the general consensus of Christianity around here.

Most Christians I know don't technically believe being good or bad determines if you go to heaven or hell. Everyone sins and apparently one sin is as bad as any other in God's eyes, so it's not what determines if you go heaven or hell. It's all about accepting Jesus. So basically, people can go to heaven only because Jesus died for them to be able to go to heaven, but if you don't believe in Jesus and appreciate what he did, you're going to hell.

And you also have to ask forgiveness for your sins, which means you acknowledge they are sins and feel remorse. This is where all the talk of people going to hell because of actions comes from. People "living in sin" aren't trying to change their ways and seek forgiveness.

There is also the matter of being accountable. If you aren't capable of understanding the concept of accepting Jesus and repenting when you die you still get to go go heaven. Usually this is referring to children (but usually not teenagers).

That's the very basics of it all that I'd say most Christians I know in my area would agree with.

Going based on what I've been taught, Eric and Dylan would almost certainly be in hell. They would be old enough to be held accountable, and they probably didn't accept Jesus and ask forgiveness before they died. Also it's a pretty common belief that suicide automatically means hell anyway.

As far as God creating people to do things he doesn't like, I believe that is a combination of 1) blame Adam and Eve, who basically ruined everything for everyone and 2) God likes to give you challenges to make you appreciate life and grow closer to him for strength.

The standard response to questioning things about God is that it's not your place to understand. When I was young I struggled with understanding why you were supposed to do what God tells you to do basically because he's bigger and more powerful than you. I always thought it was kind of creepy, like what if God is just some random jerk, why should we just accept him? Because he said so or else.  I felt like we were all just in a doll house and God was playing with us. But I guess that's what you get going to Baptist churches where they mostly talk about fearing God and being tortured in hell for eternity if you don't accept Jesus.

I still struggle with what I believe now. I can't take the bible seriously, but I do believe in a higher power/creator/whatever. I guess that's agnostic theism? I'm not really concerned with what it's called, I don't think it's too important.

PaintItBlack wrote:

To argue that E &D automatically went to Hell opens the door that victims from that day could have gone there as well because not every single person who died that day was a known as a dedicated Christian like Cassie and Rachel. And I don't believe that is true.

PaintItBlack, I'm interested in knowing more about your beliefs as far as denomination or where your beliefs come from. Have you learned what you know and believe from a church or independent study yourself, or somewhere else? I'm asking only for curiosity's sake.

Again this is based on what I was personally taught, there would absolutely be the possibility that victims went to hell. Is the reason you disagree with that because of your beliefs on the age of accountability? That seems to be a key point we learned differently here.

I was 10 on 4/20/99. Christians were really into the thing of claiming Columbine victims were killed for believing in God. And I very distinctly remember being told to always answer "yes" when asked if you believe in God. Again, I was 10, being told that if a person held a gun to my head and asked if I believed in God, I had to say yes or go to hell.

This may sound silly but it honestly never occurred to me that someone would think  17/18 year olds hadn't reached the age of accountability... It was so ingrained in me from a young age I guess.


Edited to clarify that with my current state of beliefs I wouldn't try to claim to know where anyone ends up after they die. I tend to think most people don't deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity. I found the concept of being "paroled" from hell interesting because it was so much nicer than what I was taught.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:39 pm

Thank you tfsa. That is very kind of you to say. I hope that I'm not coming off as holier than thou as I fail in many ways everyday.
Although I am not trying to push my religion on anyone and answer questions to the best of my ability, one always hopes that what you are saying might make someone think .



tfsa47090 wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
I find it coherent, but if you look at it in a scientific type manner, it might not seem so.
There is nothing wrong with using log in spiritual beliefs. It's a big part of the process.
But in much of this you have to step out in faith. You walk by faith.
As I said before if you develop any kind of a relationship with God ,he becomes very real to you.
There will be times when you see prayers directly answered or events occur in your life that can't be explained away other than divine intervention.
I understand that non believers scoff at these ideas and call it magical thinking but a believer knows otherwise.

Besides I'm sure that non believers will find inconsistences in ANY faith if they looked .


The only other thing I can say is that God did not create man to be sinful.
Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve defied God's  direct orders because Satan stirred up their pride and ignorance.
Adam and Eve had a paradise on Earth. They had no problems, no worries. Everything they needed was provided for them and they did the only thing God forbid them to do. God created mankind to love and fellowship with. He wants a relationship with everyone but does not force people to love him. That's why he gave us free will. And people often use that free will to do terrible things.   Yes, God detests sin. He realizes that people will sin because of the fallen condition of the world. He  wants people to  come to him in repentance and turn away from their sins but many refuse to do that because they like their sin or don't think they are doing anything wrong.
No, I don't see God as a masochist at all.

Sabratha wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:

The Bible and Christ said there is a Hell so yes, there is a Hell.
(...)
Mankind has been in a state of sin and spiritual corruption since the time of Adam in God's eyes. All sin  no matter how hard they my try and God detests sin.
But through Christ's mercy and sacrifice those who believe in Him and his sacrifice can be saved. If it wasn't for Christ and his sacrifice all born would be damned to Hell.

I fail to see this as a coherent set of beliefs, sorry.

If Christ's mercy and sacrifice is the only thing that prevents people from going to hell, then why do some people go to hell and others not? Shouldn't Christ's mercy and sacrifice affect everyone in equal fashion? If some people still go to hell, does that mean that Christ has less mercy and sacrificed himself less for these people, than he did for people who go to heaven?

One more thing - if God is allmighty, then he could have created man in any way he wants. Accoring to the bible, he decided to create man to be sinful and yet God "detests sin". Doesn't that make God not only hate his own work, but also purposely creating things he knows he will hate? What's the sense in that?

Is God a masochist of sorts? You know, like those people who deliberately seek out bad films to watch for the purpose of watching a poorly made film? That would be somewhat weird.


Everything you have been sharing is so profoundly moving, PaintItBlack. I cannot do it any justice by attempting to describe it in mere earthly words.

God is definitely working through you, and I agree with and have experienced everything you have said about Him.

A lot of the things you are discussing have also steered me back onto the right track; some things I've been slacking with, which we all do, and He knows we will all do this.

PaintItBlack wrote:
As I said before if you develop any kind of a relationship with God ,he becomes very real to you.
There will be times when you see prayers directly answered or events occur in your life that can't be explained away other than divine intervention.
I understand that non believers scoff at these ideas and call it magical thinking but a believer knows otherwise.

This has happened to me more times than I can even begin to try and count. And other situations within this vein are also happening to and for me through this thread and your posts alone, as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:27 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
Most of what I have learned has been by independent study, listening to tv preachers, reading and so on.
I am not a member of a church at this time as I am not sure which domination is right for me.
I am the opposite of you.
I am not so sure why as young as they were, everybody is so positive they went to Hell.
Some say the age of accountability is age 13 but I'm not sure on that.
That would leave a lot of 13,14, 15 years olds eligible to go to Hell for simply not being saved.

Thanks for answering. I find your views very interesting. I honestly think church is overrated, I never felt closer to God in a church. I'm sure there are good churches and good preachers out there, but I've never witnessed it. But like I said my family is Baptist, I often felt like they were giving the impression that the only reason to accept Jesus was to avoid hell. That never sat well with me. I think it's interesting to see how you interpret things when you haven't been influenced by a church setting.

I saw you mentioned emotional and intellectual maturity for the age of accountability. That is a different way to look at it than I've ever heard. I find your views much more sympathetic than what I was taught (I prefer your way of looking at a lot of these things). I was for sure taught that 13, 14, 15 yr olds could go to hell for not being saved. Like I said I found issues with a lot of what I was taught, even as a kid.

Quote :
So far most people have not been able to give me a reason for why they are so certain that E and D went to Hell other than they think that's what they deserve or they would like to see happen to them.

This I completely agree on. Some people think the fate of one's soul is somehow related to their personal opinion of that person. Yeah I'm sure it has nothing to do with their personal relationship with God or anything like that... just because you think so... straight to hell with them.

So, if Eric and Dylan were older, say in their 20s, would your opinion on if they went to heaven or hell change? I'm really just wondering if their age is the primary factor in your opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:27 am

I am not religious as I find it for those who are unintelligent and/or weak, although I am tolerant and do not care what others believe. If I believed in the Christian hell mass murderers would be the type that belong there. I think it's best not to argue religion as just a cursory viewing of this thread would attest. Same with politics. Anyway, as I don't have a spiritual faith there are no souls so there is no fate for them beyond that of their corpses, burned or buried.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:22 am

I'm sorry but saying that you think religion is only for those you find stupid and weak is not that tolerant.
And if you knew much about the Christian Hell ,you'd understand that it is not supposed to be only for mass murderers .A whole lot of other actions can land you there as it says in the Bible. I don't know what problem you have with the thread but it has went well for as volatile a topic as this can be.


Iresa wrote:
I am not religious as I find it for those who are unintelligent and/or weak, although I am tolerant and do not care what others believe. If I believed in the Christian hell mass murderers would be the type that belong there. I think it's best not to argue religion as just a cursory viewing of this thread would attest. Same with politics. Anyway, as I don't have a spiritual faith there are no souls so there is no fate for them beyond that of their corpses, burned or buried.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:37 am

You're Welcome. I can't say that I know for sure where E &D are.
I don't think anybody on Earth knows .People only have hopes and opinions. Most happily wish for their suffering and damnation, others like myself hope for mercy.
For me, it is more than just a hope as I think the possibilities of my opinion fit with my interpretation of who God is and the mercy and understanding he has. I know people say if he is so merciful then why would he allow people to go to Hell. But even though the world is a cruel place and many horrible, hurtful things happen, he probably gives most of us more chances than we actually deserve.

"This I completely agree on. Some people think the fate of one's soul is somehow related to their personal opinion of that person. Yeah I'm sure it has nothing to do with their personal relationship with God or anything like that... just because you think so... straight to hell with them."

Thank you for this. It's such a prevalent thing for people to damn people considered bad or evil to Hell that it is not an easy thing to come out and say that you don't agree or don't believe that to be necessarily true.


ellie z wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
Most of what I have learned has been by independent study, listening to tv preachers, reading and so on.
I am not a member of a church at this time as I am not sure which domination is right for me.
I am the opposite of you.
I am not so sure why as young as they were, everybody is so positive they went to Hell.
Some say the age of accountability is age 13 but I'm not sure on that.
That would leave a lot of 13,14, 15 years olds eligible to go to Hell for simply not being saved.

Thanks for answering. I find your views very interesting. I honestly think church is overrated, I never felt closer to God in a church. I'm sure there are good churches and good preachers out there, but I've never witnessed it. But like I said my family is Baptist, I often felt like they were giving the impression that the only reason to accept Jesus was to avoid hell. That never sat well with me. I think it's interesting to see how you interpret things when you haven't been influenced by a church setting.

I saw you mentioned emotional and intellectual maturity for the age of accountability. That is a different way to look at it than I've ever heard. I find your views much more sympathetic than what I was taught (I prefer your way of looking at a lot of these things). I was for sure taught that 13, 14, 15 yr olds could go to hell for not being saved. Like I said I found issues with a lot of what I was taught, even as a kid.

Quote :
So far most people have not been able to give me a reason for why they are so certain that E and D went to Hell other than they think that's what they deserve or they would like to see happen to them.

This I completely agree on. Some people think the fate of one's soul is somehow related to their personal opinion of that person. Yeah I'm sure it has nothing to do with their personal relationship with God or anything like that... just because you think so... straight to hell with them.

So, if Eric and Dylan were older, say in their 20s, would your opinion on if they went to heaven or hell change? I'm really just wondering if their age is the primary factor in your opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:44 am

To answer your last question, I think that if they had been several years older, it would have increased their chances of going to Hell yes, but it is not for certain .
I try not to make any sort of judgment on where people will go as it's not up to me or anyone else on this planet.
I don't know everything that might have happened to someone in their life, or all the thoughts and feelings they had before they died. Only God does.


ellie z wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
Most of what I have learned has been by independent study, listening to tv preachers, reading and so on.
I am not a member of a church at this time as I am not sure which domination is right for me.
I am the opposite of you.
I am not so sure why as young as they were, everybody is so positive they went to Hell.
Some say the age of accountability is age 13 but I'm not sure on that.
That would leave a lot of 13,14, 15 years olds eligible to go to Hell for simply not being saved.

Thanks for answering. I find your views very interesting. I honestly think church is overrated, I never felt closer to God in a church. I'm sure there are good churches and good preachers out there, but I've never witnessed it. But like I said my family is Baptist, I often felt like they were giving the impression that the only reason to accept Jesus was to avoid hell. That never sat well with me. I think it's interesting to see how you interpret things when you haven't been influenced by a church setting.

I saw you mentioned emotional and intellectual maturity for the age of accountability. That is a different way to look at it than I've ever heard. I find your views much more sympathetic than what I was taught (I prefer your way of looking at a lot of these things). I was for sure taught that 13, 14, 15 yr olds could go to hell for not being saved. Like I said I found issues with a lot of what I was taught, even as a kid.

Quote :
So far most people have not been able to give me a reason for why they are so certain that E and D went to Hell other than they think that's what they deserve or they would like to see happen to them.

This I completely agree on. Some people think the fate of one's soul is somehow related to their personal opinion of that person. Yeah I'm sure it has nothing to do with their personal relationship with God or anything like that... just because you think so... straight to hell with them.

So, if Eric and Dylan were older, say in their 20s, would your opinion on if they went to heaven or hell change? I'm really just wondering if their age is the primary factor in your opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:53 am

Actually different denominations of Christianity feel different about who goes to hell for what reason, you are incorrect. I'm tolerant as to allow people their beliefs, but my opinions of others does not have to be favorable of them to be tolerant. Example: I think nazis are terrible people, but I don't interfere in their beliefs, they can think what they want. Tolerance does not equate to positive association.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:04 am

Sorry but I'm not incorrect.
Different denominations may disagree on doctrine yes, but most agree on the cardinal sins that can possibly send you there. I've already cataloged some of them earlier in the thread. You don't have to have a favorable opinion of people, correct.
But when you come onto a board where several people are known to be religious and say that all religious people are stupid and weak, I don't see that as tolerant. It's also impolite to say the least.


Iresa wrote:
Actually different denominations of Christianity feel different about who goes to hell for what reason, you are incorrect. I'm tolerant as to allow people their beliefs, but my opinions of others does not have to be favorable of them to be tolerant. Example: I think nazis are terrible people, but I don't interfere in their beliefs, they can think what they want. Tolerance does not equate to positive association.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:41 am

ellie z wrote:
Most Christians I know don't technically believe being good or bad determines if you go to heaven or hell. Everyone sins and apparently one sin is as bad as any other in God's eyes, so it's not what determines if you go heaven or hell. It's all about accepting Jesus.

Certainly very different from Christians living here. If I were to make a "generalization of what most Christians here think", then I'd say those who give it some thought think about the christian God as a "just judge". He judges people based on their actions and intentions and treats more serious sins (murder, rape, etc) as more aggravating and damning than more causal sins (jeleaous thoughts, being aroused by the looks of someone else's wife etc).

In general, Christians would say there is some paralel between how God acts and how an ideal criminal court would act. He of course takes ino accoutn intentions and circumstances he knows (cause he is all-knowing right?) that a human court would not have access to. Plus he is merciful (so somehow it doesn't collide with  him beign just, but taht's another story).
In the end he deals out punishment in proportion to the gravity of the sin. The more gave the sin, the more you need to repent, the more you need to compensate the victim and the worse the punishment.
That's what "regular Christians" here believe and it also mirrors much of the mainstream religious doctrines.

PaintItBlack wrote:

The only other thing I can say is that God did not create man to be sinful.
Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve defied God's direct orders because Satan stirred up their pride and ignorance.
Hmm... very different from what the church here says - that God created everything. So you eman to say that sin is an external thing, some sort of primordial chaos not created by God? Reminds me more of greek mythology somewhat. Here christians say God created everything, including satan, sin, hell, humans etc for his purposes. Church officials uslally just quote Proverbs 16:4 when asked about this.

Guess its a different denomination sort of thing.

PaintItBlack wrote:
Besides I'm sure that non believers will find inconsistences in ANY faith if they looked .

Not sure. I always found more inconsistencies in Judaism and Christianity than in Islam. Islam is imho the lest illogival of all monotheist religions. Partly ebcause it is more consequent as far as the absulute power of God is concerned. Whenever tehre's a clash ebtween God's power and some other concpet, Islam ules in favor of God's power. Chistianity and Judaism just evade trying to answer these questions, or give half-way inconsistent statements.

I overall find monotheistic religions to be the most troubled and inconsistent of all religious beliefs. I always found Buddhism much more consistent and less internally-conflicted than monotheist religions. Mostly because it avoids all those "allmighty all-good God that created everything" intellectual death-traps.

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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:45 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
Sorry but I'm not incorrect.
Different denominations may disagree on doctrine yes, but most agree on the cardinal sins that can possibly send you there. I've already cataloged some of them earlier in the thread. You don't have to have a favorable opinion of people, correct.
But when you come onto a board where several people  are known to be religious and say that all religious people are stupid and weak, I don't see that as tolerant. It's also impolite to say the least.


Iresa wrote:
Actually different denominations of Christianity feel different about who goes to hell for what reason, you are incorrect. I'm tolerant as to allow people their beliefs, but my opinions of others does not have to be favorable of them to be tolerant. Example: I think nazis are terrible people, but I don't interfere in their beliefs, they can think what they want. Tolerance does not equate to positive association.

I don't care to argue, I know I'm right, you are free to think what you want.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:19 am

Sabratha wrote:
Certainly very different from Christians living here. If I were to make a "generalization of what most Christians here think", then I'd say those who give it some thought think about the christian God as a "just judge". He judges people based on their actions and intentions and treats more serious sins (murder, rape, etc) as more aggravating and damning than more causal sins (jeleaous thoughts, being aroused by the looks of someone else's wife etc).

In general, Christians would say there is some paralel between how God acts and how an ideal criminal court would act. He of course takes ino accoutn intentions and circumstances he knows (cause he is all-knowing right?) that a human court would not have access to. Plus he is merciful (so somehow it doesn't collide with him beign just, but taht's another story).
In the end he deals out punishment in proportion to the gravity of the sin. The more gave the sin, the more you need to repent, the more you need to compensate the victim and the worse the punishment.
That's what "regular Christians" here believe and it also mirrors much of the mainstream religious doctrines.

That is interesting to know, thanks. I'm from a small southern town in Oklahoma, by the way. I've talked online with people from different areas who learned/believe the same basic things I was taught but most of my information comes from in person stuff. Also there are so many denominations I obviously don't know all their beliefs. Some churches think only people of their denomination will make it to heaven... they must think heaven's pretty small.

Of course there is often a disconnect between what people officially believe and the beliefs they actually demonstrate. For example with the "all sins are equal" thing, people like to stick to that when they want to compare homosexuality to murder, but not when thinking about their own sins. And though people may claim the only way to heaven is through Jesus and that nobody is beyond salvation, they are often quick to condemn people they feel are deserving of hell.

This kind if hypocrisy isn't news to anyone though I'm guessing.
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PostSubject: Re: Fate of their souls ?   Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:04 am

ellie z wrote:
That is interesting to know, thanks. I'm from a small southern town in Oklahoma, by the way.
Pleased to meet you. I'm from a very huge city in Poland.

ellie z wrote:
For example with the "all sins are equal" thing, people like to stick to that when they want to compare homosexuality to murder, but not when thinking about their own sins. And though people may claim the only way to heaven is through Jesus and that nobody is beyond salvation, they are often quick to condemn people they feel are deserving of hell.

This kind if hypocrisy isn't news to anyone though I'm guessing.

Very different story here. Not that there's no hypocrisy, but the underlying belief is different. Catholicism, which is the denomination of the vast majority here, is a very free-will and action oriented denomination.

This means that actions are stressed much more than in protestant denominations, and there's a strong belief in everyone being personally accountable for his sins. That's really a big reason why there is an inividual confession of sins to a priest. You are to be personally accountable for all your sins, you must be sorry for having commited them and not wish to do it again. You must also repent each time for each sin and you must also compensate the victim whenever possible.

Just havign a belief in God will not take you of the hook in Catholicism. To do s, you must not only give yourself to the judgement and mercy of God, but you must also take action to remedy the effects of what you did.

For example: If you stole something from the store, you are expected to turn yourself in, return the stolen object and compensate the store owner for the whole event (perhaps by working some hours for free cleaning the store etc).


That's whow catholicism works... or at least how the ideal looks like. There's always some exceptions to this - people faking confessions or not telling all their sins, lazy priests who just say: "You are forgiven, go say 10 hail mary as repentance" without going through the whole repentance and compensation system with their sinners etc.

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