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 Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question

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Sabratha

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PostSubject: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:04 am

Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook kkiller had a large collection of weapons.

He had:
1) An Izhmash Saiga semiautomatic shotgun (Shotgun version of the AK74 series of assault rifles, using 12 gauge).
2) Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S semiautomatic rifle (Bushmaster M4 assault rifle variant using 223-caliber rounds)
3) Glock 20 semiautomatic handgun (Glock variant using 10mm ammo).
4) Sig Sauer semiautomatic P226 handgun (9mm standard version afaik)
5) Savage Mark II bolt-action .22-caliber rifle
6) Enfield bolt-action rifle (reported to be .323-caliber, but its probably a typo and its a standard .303 caliber)
7) Volcanic .22-caliber starter pistol

They had a lot of ammo for all of these.

Previously they had a Ruger rifle, but sold it before the shooting.

Thing is, to the massacre Lanza took only the Bushmaster rifle, Glock and the P226 handgun. He took the Saiga in the car, but he left it in said car and never used it.

Now, why did he do that? Why did he choose these weapons and not other ones?

Well, I think its safe to assume taht he did not take the .22 weapons because of low stopping power.
The Enfield was probably discarded as its a bolt action, taking more time to shoot.

Now the big question - why not use the Saiga?

Adam had 20 round magazines for the Saiga, which seems pretty sufficient. Saiga is a very reliable russian "kalashnikov derivative" design. Adam's variant fired powerfull 20 gauge ammo. On paper it sounds like a better alternative than a Bushmaster, especially at close ranges that Adam chose.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:43 am

I've always wondered about this too. It would make sense to choose the Bushmaster over the Saiga if he planned mainly on walking around the school or chasing people. This is because of the longer range, faster firing, and lower recoil. Adam chose to kill most of his victims in a classroom, though. The Saiga would have been a lot more effective in this setting, especially if he was using buckshot. Although if he only had slugs, I could see why he would choose the bushmaster. Are there any reports on what type of ammunition the shotgun was loaded with?

Edit- I researched it some and at his home he had around 61 buckshot rounds. He also had a box of slugs. He took two Saiga magazines with him, but I still can't find out what type of ammo he loaded them with. For his bushmaster, he took with him 10 30-round .223 magazines, all fully loaded. So the only reason I can think of why he chose the bushmaster is he had a lot more ammo and magazines for it.


Last edited by boringguy on Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:10 am

boringguy wrote:
I've always wondered about this too. It would make sense to choose the Bushmaster over the Saiga if he planned mainly on walking around the school or chasing people. This is because of the longer range, faster firing, and lower recoil. Adam chose to kill most of his victims in a classroom, though. The Saiga would have been a lot more effective in this setting, especially if he was using buckshot. Although if he only had slugs, I could see why he would choose the bushmaster. Are there any reports on what type of ammunition the shotgun was loaded with?

Edit- I researched it some and at his home he had around 61 buckshot rounds. He also had a box of slugs. He took two Saiga magazines with him, but I still can't find out what type of ammo he loaded them with. For his bushmaster, he took with him 10 30-round .223 magazines, all fully loaded. So the only reason I can think of why he chose the bushmaster is he had a lot more ammo.

I know he had both buckshot and slugs. On some forum (or was it his youtube?) he once mentioned ow good and effective buckshot is. So heboth had buckshot and valued it.

He had a lot of Saiga ammo at home, plus magazines fo it.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:24 am

Reports say he had several Saiga magazines at home, and enough ammo to fill all of them. He only took two magazines with him though. I wonder why this is.
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:11 am

It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:28 am

LPorter101 wrote:
It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

Yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing. It wouldn't be so bad if they were all locked up safely, but obviously they weren't. You just don't let someone so mentally ill have constant access to a huge arsenal. Although she was his mother, after all. She knew him better than anyone else, and she probably really thought letting Adam have access to those guns wouldnt be a problem. Still doesn't fully excuse it though.
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:13 am

boringguy wrote:
Reports say he had several Saiga magazines at home, and enough ammo to fill all of them. He only took two magazines with him though. I wonder why this is.

I think that part is obvious. The Saiga was not planned by Lanza to be his main gun in the shooting, he clearly preferred the bushmaster.

THE question is: Why did he prefer the bushmaster over the Saiga in the first place?

LPorter101 wrote:
It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

Frankly, I think it was mostly her own "fucking arsenal". Nancy herself was a huge gun nut. Its not like she bougth the guns for him, she bougth them mostly for herself. She got Adam to pass some NRA certification and trained him in firearms use sine he was a kid, but taht's what she believed in. That's probably the same way her own parents raised her.

So while I'm not justifying her for giving a mentaly unstable kid access to guns, I do want to stress that its not like she never had any guns before Adam convinced her to buy them.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 am

I've wondered this same thing. I, in that situation would have preferred the shotgun for obvious tactical advantage reasons. The magazines he had were very large as well as the stopping power, spread of shots and close range damaging benefits. Perhaps he was inexperienced with firing it or the recoil was difficult for him to handle (he was extremely underweight). Those are the best and only reasonings I have been able to surmise.

On another slightly related note, I have a question for you if you don't mind, Sabratha. I am aware of him following your posts and Bullet Time and I was wondering how the revelation of this has effected or affected you personally? If you don't want to answer I understand completely, I hope it is not inappropriate to ask, if so, my apologies. I've followed his case very closely and am interested.
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:22 pm

Iresa wrote:
I've wondered this same thing. I, in that situation would have preferred the shotgun for obvious tactical advantage reasons. The magazines he had were very large as well as the stopping power, spread of shots and close range damaging benefits. Perhaps he was inexperienced with firing it or the recoil was difficult for him to handle (he was extremely underweight). Those are the best and only reasonings I have been able to surmise.

He certainly ahd the time and opportunity to try and practice with his shotgun, as both he and his mom did with their weapons at a firing range iirc. So its not inexperience.

Me and an associate researcher of Sandy Hook (who I will NOT name here) have been thinking about this and the "he probablyw as too frail for the recoil" notion ocured to both of us. That was teh only reason we found, I was wondering if people here (especially gun-savy ones) would find any more or better reasons.

Iresa wrote:
On another slightly related note, I have a question for you if you don't mind, Sabratha. I am aware of him following your posts and Bullet Time and I was wondering how the revelation of this has effected or affected you personally? If you don't want to answer I understand completely, I hope it is not inappropriate to ask, if so, my apologies. I've followed his case very closely and am interested.

Send me a PM.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:24 pm

Sabratha wrote:
boringguy wrote:
Reports say he had several Saiga magazines at home, and enough ammo to fill all of them. He only took two magazines with him though. I wonder why this is.

I think that part is obvious. The Saiga was not planned by Lanza to be his main gun in the shooting, he clearly preferred the bushmaster.

THE question is: Why did he prefer the bushmaster over the Saiga in the first place?

LPorter101 wrote:
It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

Frankly, I think it was mostly her own "fucking arsenal". Nancy herself was a huge gun nut. Its not like she bougth the guns for him, she bougth them mostly for herself. She got Adam to pass some NRA certification and trained him in firearms use sine he was a kid, but taht's what she believed in. That's probably the same way her own parents raised her.

So while I'm not justifying her for giving a mentaly unstable kid access to guns, I do want to stress that its not like she never had any guns before Adam convinced her to buy them.

Have you read this? I find it interesting:
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:46 pm

LPorter101 wrote:
Sabratha wrote:
boringguy wrote:
Reports say he had several Saiga magazines at home, and enough ammo to fill all of them. He only took two magazines with him though. I wonder why this is.

I think that part is obvious. The Saiga was not planned by Lanza to be his main gun in the shooting, he clearly preferred the bushmaster.

THE question is: Why did he prefer the bushmaster over the Saiga in the first place?

LPorter101 wrote:
It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

Frankly, I think it was mostly her own "fucking arsenal". Nancy herself was a huge gun nut. Its not like she bougth the guns for him, she bougth them mostly for herself. She got Adam to pass some NRA certification and trained him in firearms use sine he was a kid, but taht's what she believed in. That's probably the same way her own parents raised her.

So while I'm not justifying her for giving a mentaly unstable kid access to guns, I do want to stress that its not like she never had any guns before Adam convinced her to buy them.

Have you read this? I find it interesting:
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Read it, am not aguing against. erely saying that it was Nancy who bought the guns, she was the legal owner and she was herself a gun nut. Adm had access to the guns all the time, still, its not a case of non-gun owning Nancy Lanza buying all these weapons for her son. She was a gun nut in her own right.

Reed seems to mention the magazine capacity as teh reason why Adam chose the bushmaster over the Saiga though. Interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:53 am

From what I've read he never actually fired the Saiga; however. Regardless of why though, it was a strange and illogical decision for someone who placed so much clout on logic as himself.
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:44 pm

Iresa wrote:
From what I've read he never actually fired the Saiga; however. Regardless of why though, it was a strange and illogical decision for someone who placed so much clout on logic as himself.

You eman to say that he never fired during the massacre or never fired it all his life?

The first is cerainly true. Lanza took with him to the shooting the bushmaster, the saiga, and two handguns. But he left the saiga in the car, he went into the school taking with him the two handguns and holding the bushmaster rifle. He commited suicide in the school, he never went back to the car for the Saiga. He clearly brought it in the car as some sort of "reserve backup".

Important point - the bushmaster rifle had a shoulder strap or sling taht he would use when he shifter from the rifle to the handguns to fire. The Saiga did not have sucha  sling. Thus its obvious that he did not intend the Saiga as his prmary weapon.

Question is why? The saiga has a lot of very good qualities when it comes to being a close quarters weapon, in my opinion (not beign a gun expert mind you) it comes off as a better weapon for any close combat situations (including killing unarmed people as grim as it sounds) than a bushmaster. Only downsides of a saiga are smaller clips (though 20 rounds for a shotgun is a still a hell of a lot) and somewhat larger recoil.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:37 pm

He never fired it at all is what I meant, from what I have read, although it's of course possible that he did. I was in in the Marines when I was younger so I have experience widh firearms, I definitely agree it is a superior weapon for that purpose. If I remember correctly he even had a drum magazine with him for it which held 50 rounds. It makes no logistical sense not to have used it, it is a good question why he didn't. Best I can imagine, although this very well could be incorrect of course, is that he was so frail (underweight, technically anorexic) that the recoil of the shotgun would have ben difficult for him to handle and he felt more proficient in his usage and abilities with the rifle. Beyond that I can't think of any good possibilities but am welcome to ideas, I'd like to know too.
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:56 am

Iresa wrote:
He never fired it at all is what I meant, from what I have read, although it's of course possible that he did. I was in in the Marines when I was younger so I have experience widh firearms, I definitely agree it is a superior weapon for that purpose. If I remember correctly he even had a drum magazine with him for it which held 50 rounds. It makes no logistical sense not to have used it, it is a good question why he didn't. Best I can imagine, although this very well could be incorrect of course, is that he was so frail (underweight, technically anorexic) that the recoil of the shotgun would have ben difficult for him to handle and he felt more proficient in his usage and abilities with the rifle. Beyond that I can't think of any good possibilities but am welcome to ideas, I'd like to know too.

He had several magazines holding 20 rounds. He also had some 10 round magaziens taped togeather. I don't remember him having a 50 round clip.

Well, thank you for your insight as someone who has real experience with weapons. My assessment was based on "stats on paper", as I don't have much gun experience.

The recoil is something that came to my mind as well, although I would find it weird if he never fired the Saiga, as the purchase of the Saiga corresponds to his birthday IIRC

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:04 am

LPorter101 wrote:
It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

Nancy Lanza was a libertarian wingnut who thought the Government was going to come to her house and shoot her child in front of her or something, so in one sense having a huge arsenal wasn't so stupid. The stupid thing was leaving all the guns lying around, unsecured, with an ill child in the house.
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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:13 am

AngerTotem wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

Nancy Lanza was a libertarian wingnut who thought the Government was going to come to her house and shoot her child in front of her or something, so in one sense having a huge arsenal wasn't so stupid. The stupid thing was leaving all the guns lying around, unsecured, with an ill child in the house.

Well, the gun locker was pretty much in "Adam's turf" sot to speak, not in the area of the house used primarily by his mother.

Seeign as Nancy died first, I don't think the matter of having them secured or not would matter. Adam woud have just stolen the key anyways.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:16 am

Sabratha wrote:
AngerTotem wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
It's awfully hard to feel bad about Nancy Lanza, isn't it? She bought him all of those guns. She knew that her son was grievously mentally ill, and yet she bought him a fucking arsenal.

Talk about earning one's Darwin Award...

Nancy Lanza was a libertarian wingnut who thought the Government was going to come to her house and shoot her child in front of her or something, so in one sense having a huge arsenal wasn't so stupid. The stupid thing was leaving all the guns lying around, unsecured, with an ill child in the house.

Well, the gun locker was pretty much in "Adam's turf" sot to speak, not in the area of the house used primarily by his mother.

Seeign as Nancy died first, I don't think the matter of having them secured or not would matter. Adam woud have just stolen the key anyways.

If she had secured the weapons then Adam Lanza wouldn't have been able to kill her and make off with them.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:53 pm

AngerTotem wrote:

If she had secured the weapons then Adam Lanza wouldn't have been able to kill her and make off with them.

He wasn't stupid, if he really wanted to get to them I'm sure he would have found a way anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Lanza's weapons and the Saiga question   Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:36 am

AngerTotem wrote:
If she had secured the weapons then Adam Lanza wouldn't have been able to kill her and make off with them.

Suffice to say, I know at least half a dozen specific and easy ways to kill everyone living in the same house with me. Nobody here has a gun safe, but if they had I'd just get into it after getting rid of the owners.

I'm not gonna post specifics, as I certainly do not want help any potential killers lurking on the forums.


I just want to stress that I am not planning any spree killing or anything of that sort - the good, honest and non-violent citizen that I am.

But if I were to plan a spree, then I would assure you that killing people living under the same roof would be amongst the easiests step of them all.

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