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 Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....

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huskyfan68



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PostSubject: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:15 pm

I've been an EMT for 20 years- I have a pretty good understanding of how things work out in the field in most states- I'm neutral as to what I believe really happened or didn't happen- let's just say something does not add up in my mind....
so if I look at this from an EMS response- the one thing I cannot figure out is the following:
- Dispatch reports shooting at school- Cops arrive- Once it's determined at some point there are MASS CASUALTIES- immediate request for AS MANY RESOURCES AS POSSIBLE is the next step... (it doesn't matter if at a quick glance many appear to be mortally wounded)- you don't assume and cops cannot make that call anyway.
- So if there were truly dying children - everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) should have been called or put on standby- period.
I have responded to MANY MVC calls where IN ROUTE- we call for medivac on standby- (You can always cancel them) it happens all the time.
The idea is you want as much help as possible at your disposal.... ESPECIALLY with children- You do EVERYTHING KNOWN TO MAN....

so just based on that fact alone- (regardless of what you see on video)- every surrounding town should have dispatched rigs- medivac would have been called (actually multiple)- the number one priority after scene safety is life saving efforts- I can tell you for a fact in my town we send minimum of 3 ambulances- crash truck to a standard MVC- if we hear from cops that it looks bad- We call medivac- (once on scene- we can cancel)

Someone explain to me how this did not happen-....I can only think of a few scenarios:
1. whoever went in first never reported mass casualties- WHY I don't know (something to cover up?)
2. mass failure in incident command (or some process)
but I can tell you even if kids "appeared" mortally wounded- you would try everything and anything to save them- out of 26 people- some should have been transported!!!
and who prounced them dead? only a nurse- ER doc or medic (in most cases- working under a doc) can do it- EMT's and police cannot.
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Zephyr



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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:08 am

I couldn't agree more, huskyfan68.

Chapman, Smith, Penna--all saw rooms 10 and 8 no later than 9:51:31 a.m. (when Smith announced shooter down), and in all likelihood, they saw those rooms earlier than that.

Yet not one of them radioed dispatch to say there were not two, but 27 seriously wounded.

We know that because 1) the radio transmissions have been publicly available from day one, and 2) when Newtown dispatcher Bob Nute hears EMT Dahlmeyer's transmission to "call for everything," it is clearly the first time he is aware that this is a mass casualty incident.

The time of her transmission? 10:02 a.m.

What on earth prevented NPD from alerting dispatch to the dozens of extra victims?

By the time of Dahlmeyer's transmission, victims had been bleeding for half an hour; it would be longer yet before the first regional ambulances, now finally alerted, made it to Newtown.

By the time they arrived, the roads were so thoroughly blocked by state and parent vehicles that they literally could not access the scene, despite PD's repeated requests that they do so. Newtown Volunteer Fire Dept.'s quadrunner couldn't even get through.

A failure in Incident Command, indeed--alluded to by FBI Dir. James Comey, who said that lives in New Mexico were saved because of "lessons learned at Sandy Hook." And the Texas ALERRT Asst. Dir. actually alluded to the Sandy Hook response being, in his words, "a train wreck."

Sad stuff; but what's even sadder is that those who took an oath are not being honest about the serious mistakes made at Sandy Hook.

There is every indication that it was an officer-involved shooting inside the school which plunged NPD into virtual radio silence--and appears to have even resulted in deliberate stalling of EMS. Lives depend on a full and honest accounting of the emergency response to Sandy Hook. It is high time for an after action report, and an independent investigation.
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Dataverse



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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:58 am

This has puzzled me to this very day, precisely what happened during the emergency actions taken in response to the shootings were not very well documented.

I'd hazard a guess and say that there was so much initial panic that everyone was scrambling and didn't know how to combat the situation first-hand. It is possible that they did not send medical assistance into the school building under the assumption that the perpetrator, Adam Lanza, was still active within the vicinity.
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Zephyr



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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:18 pm

Newtown Police transmissions indicate Kullgren, the commanding officer, communicating very calmly with dispatch; he never notified dispatch about the catastrophic leap in patient numbers, however. This doesn't look good. We must remember that this has nothing to do with whether or not to send EMS into a dangerous situation; this has to do with calling enough EMS in the first place from surrounding towns (the travel takes time), so that they could have been waiting in the safety of the staging area and then be only seconds from the school when called up to transport.

It's not about whether or not Kullgren should have told Bob to send ambulances directly to the school; it's about Kullgren failing to tell Bob many, many additional ambulances were needed. The odd thing is that CSP did the right thing--the MOMENT they saw the scene, they placed phone call after phone call to immediately summon regional ambulances. But Newtown officers who saw the classrooms did not, even though they saw those rooms earlier than CSP did, when patients had an even greater chance of being saved.

No one knows better than a Newtown officer how few ambulances Newtown has. It was 100% their responsibility to immediately notify dispatch so that dispatch could immediately notify C-MED. In a further twist, Newtown dispatch seems to have not only not notified C-MED, but actively worked to keep information from them. (I don't think this is some hoax issue; just territorialism).

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Sabratha

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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:17 pm

Well, my stance on these kind of events is that we should never try to explain a certain event as a conspiracy as long as it can be reasonably explained by indolence, human error and a sloppy job of trained professionals.

In this case, perhaps also the procedures were at fault.

I'd possibly also blame US car culture. In Poland, if there's slow traffic and there's a fireman car, a police car or paramedics coming through on a signal, people will do what they can to let the emergency people through. They will stop, drive their own cars off the road or into a ditch just to let emergency responders go through and not have to wait in traffic.

From what I read, this is entirely not how the US residents reacted and the traffic severely impaired emergency responders.

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LPorter101

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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:26 pm

Sabratha wrote:
Well, my stance on these kind of events is that we should never try to explain a certain event as a conspiracy as long as it can be reasonably explained by indolence, human error and a sloppy job of trained professionals.

In this case, perhaps also the procedures were at fault.

I'd possibly also blame US car culture. In Poland, if there's slow traffic and there's a fireman car, a police car or paramedics coming through on a signal, people will do what they can to let the emergency people through. They will stop, drive their own cars off the road or into a ditch just to let emergency responders go through and not have to wait in traffic.

From what I read, this is entirely not how the US residents reacted and the traffic severely impaired emergency responders.

We Yanks do move over for cop cars, fire trucks, and ambulances ... we're not that assholey. Very Happy

At least, that's how it's done where I live...
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ellie z



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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:36 pm

Quote :
We Yanks do move over for cop cars, fire trucks, and ambulances ... we're not that assholey.

At least, that's how it's done where I live...

Here too. It's the law isn't it, it's not just out of courtesy. People will do the same for a funeral procession, but I don't think that one is legally required.
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huskyfan68



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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:53 pm

Sabratha-  I'm not saying it's a conspiracy- I'm saying something is wrong at many levels........
First off- it's nearly impossible for there to be that many failures in EMS- communication- incident command etc.... simply due to the fact that someone would have bucked the system in some way- I can site examples (again I'm speaking from REAL situations)
I've been on numerous car accidents- The call goes out- there are fireman/EMTs that show up in personal vehicles- they park on the curb- lawns.. anywhere- it's chaos- that is the point- there are many situations that until facts are known- people do what they want in the interest of saving lives- I have seen 20-25 cars show up for a 2 car MVC-
Thats part of my first point- the initial reaction is CHAOS-- that is normal-  if anyone (EMT-fire) heard dispatch for children shot- there should have been mass chaos in the parking lot- (look at videos of Brazil school shooting, or even the massacre in Beslin- this depicts what should have been the scene....  Look how orderly Sandy Hook scene is- there is no way (unless someone never radioed) the fact we had 20-26 shooting victims-- and why would they not radio????
and ask yourself this- If that was the case- (for some insane reason no one called in mass casualties)-  where are the LAWSUITS???

You mean to tell me- if police/swat etc- delayed EMS care (even for 30 seconds) to your child- there would be no lawsuits????
as grim as it sounds- bodies should have been rushed, carried- (dying or not)- out of that school- bottom line.

I have transported patients (young and old) from houses, apartments THAT WERE PULSELESS on arrival)- guess what- (unless they have been dead and show signs of unrecoverable mortality)- we try and save them-
Can you explain to me why NONE of the kids were transported???  the ambulances should have been lined up down the street!!  I also went to 9/11-  When I was deployed we HAD 24 ambulances staged in Jersey City within 30 minutes-  ready to go.... (whether you go or not is a different story)
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Sabratha

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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:13 pm

huskyfan wrote:
First off- it's nearly impossible for there to be that many failures in EMS- communication- incident command etc.... simply due to the fact that someone would have bucked the system in some way- I can site examples (again I'm speaking from REAL situations)

Ok, you have experience in this field, I do not. I know its not outside the sort of indolence polish EMS did at times, but perhaps US EMS are better funded and more professional as a result.

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huskyfan68



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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:56 pm

it makes no sense on many levels- If someone has input- I would be happy to hear it-
I could understand "one" failure or one component- I have never seen this many failures or non explanations... (no medivac... no lawsuits- no panic- no chaos)
I have seen more panic and chaos at a single car accident ..... this is over 20 MULTIPLE GUNSHOT VICTIMS- ask yourself that question.....
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fantasykingdom985

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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:08 pm

I used to wonder about this as well. I found a site called Sandy Hook facts that I think explains it very well. Basicaly they had 29 casuaties, two were yellow tags, two were red tags, and all the rest were black tags. That means that most of the 29 casulaties were already dead. There was no point to the emts taking them to the hospital at that point. For anyone who wants to read the post, it is under the title : only a doctor can declrare you dead. The main jist is that in mass casulaty situations EMTS can presume someone dead and a doctor will make the offical declaration later. In the case of room [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] the crime scene had already been disturbed by the EMTS they had on scene checking for vital signs. They only found one boy alive, and the rest were black taged. They could have made the decision to try and take the dead to the hospital anyway, but that would have distrubed the crime scene even more. I guess one way to look at it is that instead of a mass casualty situation they had a mass fatality situation.
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Zephyr



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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:19 pm

fantasykingdom985 wrote:
I used to wonder about this as well. I found a site called Sandy Hook facts that I think explains it very well. Basicaly they had 29 casuaties, two were yellow tags, two were red tags, and all the rest were black tags. That means that most of the 29 casulaties were already dead. There was no point to the emts taking them to the hospital at that point. For anyone who wants to read the post, it is under the title :  only a doctor can declrare you dead. The main jist is that in mass casulaty situations EMTS can presume someone dead and a doctor will make the offical declaration later. In the case of room [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] the crime scene had already been disturbed by the EMTS they had on scene checking for vital signs. They only found one boy alive, and the rest were black taged. They could have made the decision to try and take the dead to the hospital anyway, but that would have distrubed the crime scene even more. I guess one way to look at it is that instead of a mass casualty situation they had a mass fatality situation.

The "rest were black tags" is a decision made long, long after the point at which NPD first found the victims, at which point it was NPD's immediate responsibility to notify dispatch this was an MCI. There is no protocol short of 100% decapitation or rigor mortis of every known victim which calls for not bothering to notify dispatch. Also, by NPD's own radioed statements, they felt another shooter was still on the loose, AND they hadn't even begun to clear all the rooms yet. They had literally zero idea  how many more wounded they would discover. Even if 100% of the victims in Rooms 10 and 8 had been decapitated--they were not--it was absolutely NPD's job to inform dispatch that this was an active shooter situation with multiple existing casualties and multiple casualties likely yet to occur.

Regarding the black tags, it is more accurate to say they eventually became black tags, rather than they were black tags at 9:49 a.m. (they were not at that point). In surgeon William Billups' words, "Most of those children did not have wounds that were immediately lethal."
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Wideawake

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PostSubject: Re: Sandy Hook- An EMS perspective....   Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:05 am

I have never responded to a mass casualty, and my mass casualty training is strictly in the case of the ER's treatment of such situations. But who tagged the victims? Are police officers trained to tag the victims and decide who is walking wounded versus who is critically injured? (Serious question here.) Assuming that the EMT who made the call at 10:02 and informed dispatch of the situation tagged them, why wouldn't the officers who were in the room ten minutes before call for help? I can tell you that as soon as I walked in the room I would have called for all available ambulances, regardless of whether I thought they were all dead.

Shouldn't that be standard protocol for a school shooting anyway? Why wouldn't it be?
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