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 Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"

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LPorter101

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PostSubject: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:34 am

Eric Harris wrote:
someones bound to say "what were they thinking?" when we go NBK or when we were planning it, so this what I am thinking. "I have a goal to destroy as much as possible so I must not be sidetracked by my feelings of sympathy, mercy, or any of that, so I will force myself to believe that everyone is just another monster from Doom like FH or FS or demons, so It's either me or them. I have to turn off my feelings."

If Eric had been a psychopath, then he wouldn't have had any feelings to turn off, now, would he?
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:38 am

Lol. It is quite evident from all of the evidence, all of his journal entries and writings, and all the videos of them both that Eric was not a psychopath or sociopath. The crime itself is not the sort of crime you would see a psychopath commit. Eric had passion about NBK, had revenge on his mind for all the bad things in his life. Had he felt no emotion and had he actually been a psychopath, he would not have been troubled by his life and would probably end up being a serial killer instead.

The only reason anyone thinks he is, is because they've had a bit of good old fashioned Cullen brainwashing.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:19 am

Yeah I always found that entry interesting, it's not the only instance where he doesn't sound like you're typical run of the mill psycho.

Cullen is not the one who came up with the diagnoses of psychopath, he got all his information from a criminal psychologist. And every other professional who's analyzed Eric has said he was a psychopath.

But they also seem to be going strictly by his journal entry's and they also say they really can't diagnose someone after death.

I can't remember right now if they've ever analyzed this particular statement of his? Wonder what they'd say about it?

I'm pretty undecided about this right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:27 am

The journal was made for public and I do not take those thing which are there word for word however I'm amongst those who believe that Eric wasn't a psychopath.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:04 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The journal was made for public and I do not take those thing which are there word for word however I'm amongst those who believe that Eric wasn't a psychopath.

You are right. He was not a psychopath. His journal is just a guy blowing off steam. If Andy Rooney wrote down his thoughts he'd sound just as OCD and angry as Eric. Plus let's keep in mind Eric was teenage boy. Most teenage boys have violent, homicidal fantasies and many of them never grow out of them. That is why there are so many violent video games. Who do people assume are paying the billions of dollars to buy them year after year -- grandmas?

It's not just his journal -- it's his interactions w/ friends, his creative writing, and the transcripts of the BT, not to mention his online chats that show Eric Harris was not a psychopath.

Here's the part that is even more funny: Cullen bases almost his entire "psychopath" argument on the work of Hare, using the "Psychopath checklist" as the fulcrum of his argument.

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Hare's framework was never meant to be used as a tool for laymen and it is not an appropriate tool for administering diagnoses by untrained personnel. It was meant as a guide for his own experiments and research, period.

"An individual's score may have important consequences for his or her future, and because the potential for harm if the test is used or administered incorrectly is considerable, Hare argues that the test should be considered valid only if administered by a suitably qualified and experienced clinician under scientifically controlled and licensed, standardized conditions"

Eric Harris was evaluated by mental health professionals but they did not diagnose him as being a psychopath.

Cullen has ZERO validity as an expert on mental health. I could take Hare's index, pull it out of context and prove that ANYONE is a psychopath. The idea that Eric Harris was a psychopath is an empty assertion and there is absolutely no validity to this specious meme.

Hare's work is important but its popular iteration is nothing more than a buzzword that carries no actual meaning. It is an easy way to stop thinking about Columbine. It is a dangerous myth, almost like a drug that gives people the peace and happiness of denial.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:10 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Eric Harris wrote:
someones bound to say "what were they thinking?" when we go NBK or when we were planning it, so this what I am thinking. "I have a goal to destroy as much as possible so I must not be sidetracked by my feelings of sympathy, mercy, or any of that, so I will force myself to believe that everyone is just another monster from Doom like FH or FS or demons, so It's either me or them. I have to turn off my feelings."

If Eric had been a psychopath, then he wouldn't have had any feelings to turn off, now, would he?

Frankly him saying he's planning to turn off his feelings sounds pretty psychopathic in itself.

The whole: Psychopaths have no emotions is pop culture stuff that is not verified by clinical psychiatrists. Its a grain of trusth coved in a big ball of BS.

Facts:

- Some psychopaths have flat affect,
- Some have shallow emotions
- Almost all have little empathy (empathy, not low social skills or trouble recognizing other people's emotions).

Having said that, psychopathy is more of a spectrym/personality type than a simple "all or nothing" disorder. Not all psychopaths are equally psychopathic and not all have every trait at the same level.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:33 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Facts:

- Some psychopaths have flat affect,
- Some have shallow emotions
- Almost all have little empathy (empathy, not low social skills or trouble recognizing other people's emotions).

Having said that, psychopathy is more of a spectrym/personality type than a simple "all or nothing" disorder. Not all psychopaths are equally psychopathic and not all have every trait at the same level.

Sabratha, with all due respect: where are getting your information? You are citing "facts" and you are not providing any sources. I assume that you are not a clinical psychologist? Your understanding of psychopathy strikes me, an admitted layman, as being very superficial. Please provide some evidence for your assertions. The pathology associated with mental illness is not at all as cut and dried as you are suggesting. This is even more true in regard to the diagnosing of psychopathy.  

If you are referring to Hare's index, please see my upstream post. There is no value in using it in an anecdotal fashion. it is only relevant under the most rigorous clinical condition and even then it is merely a guide.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:41 pm

Try RobertD. Hare's books, Randall T. Salekin's papers and  as sources.

I did in fact study psychology, Warsaw University.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Try RobertD. Hare's books, Randall T. Salekin's papers and  as sources.

I did in fact study psychology, Warsaw University.

If you had studied at all diligently you would know that Hare's psychopathy index is of no use in the kind of context that has been used to retroactively designate Eric Harris as a psychopath.

You would also know that a meaningful psychological diagnosis is impossible to make without a direct evaluation of the subject. You should also be aware of the fact that Eric Harris displayed much more tendencies associated with PTSD or borderline personality than with psychopathy.

Seeing as how you have some scholarly background, you ought to be able to provide some evidence for your assertions. Please do so.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

If you had studied at all diligently you would know that Hare's psychopathy index is of no use in the kind of context that has been used to retroactively designate Eric Harris as a psychopath.

I have stated that his model of describing psychopathy seems the best to me, in comparison with other models. I have never stated we can make a professional diagnosis of Eric or Dylan based on this, as a diagnosis is not possible if the subject is deceased and cannot be observed.

I do think we can make an educated guess based on the wrritings and themes the killers use. But that's all.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You would also know that a meaningful psychological diagnosis is impossible to make without a direct evaluation of the subject.
Oh yes, I have stated this many times, possibly even on this forum. People who remember my threads about psychological disorders on the old forums can verify, I assume LPorter and KitKat recall these.

Proof? Here is someone in 2014 quoting my older post (original post circa 2008) :
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also contains my posts from april 2015, where I say: "We can never accurately diagnose a deceased person if he was not through a directed psychological evaluation during his lifetime."

So yes, straw man on your side Gusto. Sorry to point this out.

As for sources, try anything by Hare for starters. "Without Conscience". Its the most accessible stuff he wrote on the topic, but the doctrinal foundations are the same as for his psychological articles regarding PCL-R

If you have any scientific subscription to US academic sources, try articles by Stephen D.Hart. I mention thse in passing, as the last time I checked these are not publically available and you'd need to pay to see them or get a subscription.

EDIT: Sadly the same rings true for the basic csource of all: PCL-R manual itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:13 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

If you had studied at all diligently you would know that Hare's psychopathy index is of no use in the kind of context that has been used to retroactively designate Eric Harris as a psychopath.

I have stated that his model of describing psychopathy seems the best to me, in comparison with other models. I have never stated we can make a professional diagnosis of Eric or Dylan based on this, as a diagnosis is not possible if the subject is deceased and cannot be observed.

I do think we can make an educated guess based on the wrritings and themes the killers use. But that's all.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You would also know that a meaningful psychological diagnosis is impossible to make without a direct evaluation of the subject.
Oh yes, I have stated this many times, possibly even on this forum. People who remember my threads about psychological disorders on the old forums can verify, I assume LPorter and KitKat recall these.

Proof? Here is someone in 2014 quoting my older post (original post circa 2008) :
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
also contains my posts from april 2015, where I say: "We can never accurately diagnose a deceased person if he was not through a directed psychological evaluation during his lifetime."

So yes, straw man on your side Gusto. Sorry to point this out.

As for sources, try anything by Hare for starters. "Without Conscience". Its the most accessible stuff he wrote on the topic, but the doctrinal foundations are the same as for his psychological articles regarding PCL-R

If you ahve any scientific subscription to US academic sources, try articles by Stephen D.Hart. I mention thse in passing, as the last time I checked these are not publically available and you'd need to pay to see them or get a subscription.

There was no "straw man" argument involved here. You cited Hare and I am claiming that Hare's psychopathy index has no validity in regard to making a psycho-historical interpretation of NBK or -- more specifically -- Eric Harris.

Let me restate that for empahsis: I am not saying that it is HARDER to use Hare's index as a tool for psycho-history; I am saying it is impossible to do so. Any claims made on this basis are specious. They are pseudoscientific.

I am not familiar with Stephen D. Hart. I work for EBSCO publishing and I have access to a pretty good sized academic database of sources.  But providing me with someone's name is a far cry from providing evidence for your assertions about the nature of psychopathy.

I suspect your reluctance to do so is because you are relying so heavily on the "pop" psychological interpretation of Hare's work. Unfortunately for you, Hare himself has provided the counterargument to your claims.

If you can muster up the energy to do so I would greatly appreciate your making any kind of substantiation for the "facts" you cited upstream. I would be even more grateful if you could meaningfully connect those 'facts" to Eric Harris in any way.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
There was no "straw man" argument involved here. You cited Hare and I am claiming that Hare's psychopathy index has no validity in regard to making a psycho-historical interpretation of NBK or -- more specifically -- Eric Harris.

It needs to be stressed that you are in fact making a straw man argument. Here is my own statement from april this year, I stand by this and I have repeated this and variants of this statement all over since my 2007 activity on the old boards:

"We can never accurately diagnose a deceased person if he was not through a directed psychological evaluation during his lifetime."

There, go argue with this statement please.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
There was no "straw man" argument involved here. You cited Hare and I am claiming that Hare's psychopathy index has no validity in regard to making a psycho-historical interpretation of NBK or -- more specifically -- Eric Harris.

It needs to be stressed that you are in fact making a straw man argument. Here is my own statement from april this year, I stand by this and I have repeated this and variants of this statement all over since my 2007 activity on the old boards:

"We can never accurately diagnose a deceased person if he was not through a directed psychological evaluation during his lifetime."

There, go argue with this statement please.

As with every debate we have you just keep repeating the same points and seldom if ever answer any of my questions.

There is no straw man. You, like Cullen, are using Hare's index of psychopathy as a basis for saying Eric Harris was a psychopath. That is an erroneous suggestion. It is scientifically unsound.

Please provide a shred of evidence that indicates that Eric Harris was a psychopath that in no way refers to Hare's index.

Please provide a clinical definition for "psychopath" that does not make reference to Hare's index.

Please demonstrate that you know the difference between psychological theory and psychological diagnosis.

Please show that you understand that psychohistory is part of the humanities; not a science.

Please support your upstream "facts" with ... anything. Scientific data and peer-reviewed sources would be best. But I'd be happy for a good newspaper article at this point.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:00 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please provide a shred of evidence that indicates that Eric Harris was a psychopath that in no way refers to Hare's index.
This is ambiguous.

My belief is that Eric likely was a psychopath. This is not me making a professional diagnosis, as such a diagnosis cannot be made without Eric being alive.

Quote :
As with every debate we have you just keep repeating the same points and seldom if ever answer any of my questions.

A diagnosis is not possible. I have stated this before. I will keep repeating this as long as you make hints or suggestions that I am making or trying to make a formal diagnosis.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please provide a (...)
Why? I do not like the confrontational altitude you are adopting. Please convince me that I should reply to these, as so far you have not done so.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:08 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please provide a shred of evidence that indicates that Eric Harris was a psychopath that in no way refers to Hare's index.
This is ambiguous.

My belief is that Eric likely was a psychopath. This is not me making a professional diagnosis, as such a diagnosis cannot be made without Eric being alive.

Quote :
As with every debate we have you just keep repeating the same points and seldom if ever answer any of my questions.

A diagnosis is not possible. I have stated this before. I will keep repeating this as long as you make hints or suggestions that I am making or trying to make a formal diagnosis.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please provide a (...)
Why? I do not like the confrontational altitude you are adopting. Please convince me that I should reply to these, as so far you have not done so.

It's not confrontational. I want to know where you derive your "facts" about psychopathy. You don't have to reply to my questions if you don't feel like doing so. I'm interested in the psychopathy issue and I am not at all convinced that it is a valid interpretation of Eric Harris. If you had some basis for characterizing Eric Harris as a psychopath that has clinical validity I'd sure like to see it. You claimed to have a scholarly background in psychopathy. I'm interested in having a robust debate on the issue.

If you don't have that data, I think it is dangerous to make that characterization of Eric because it makes it easy to sweep NBK under the rug.

As such I will continue to argue against this point of view when possible because I think it is important.

But I am not trying to insult you personally or be confrontational at all. This issue obviously is one that gets me a bit revved up.

I love you

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:20 pm

Eric is dead, thus no clinical diagnosis can be made.

If this is what you mean by "clinical validity" then there is no basis whatsoever for calling Eric normal (free of mental disorders). There is no "clinical validity" for claling him disordered either. Neither case can be made as a diagnosis, becuas ethe subject cnanot be studied as he's dead.

We can only make what I'll term here as an "educated guess" based on their life history, their behavior as reported by other and writings.


So, what do you mean by "clinical validity"?

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:38 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Eric is dead, thus no clinical diagnosis can be made.

If this is what you mean by "clinical validity" then there is no basis whatsoever for calling Eric normal (free of mental disorders). There is no "clinical validity" for claling him disordered either. Neither case can be made as a diagnosis, becuas ethe subject cnanot be studied as he's dead.

We can only make what I'll term here as an "educated guess" based on their life history, their behavior as reported by other and writings.


So, what do you mean by "clinical validity"?

I would like you (or anyone else) to provide a clinical definition of psychopathy that is not based on Hare's index. I would then like to see you (or anyone) make a psychohistorical argument based on this definition and on the evidence we have that Eric was a psychopath.

I can do this in regard to Eric having PTSD. I can do it to establish that he suffered from a dissociative personality disorder; I can do it to show that he may have been a borderline personality. I can do this to demonstrate that Dylan was clinically depressed. I can do it to show that Dylan was clinically suicidal.

What I can't do is use a clinical definition of psychopathy and the existing evidence to show the Eric Harris was a psychopath. And neither can you, Cullen, or anyone else.

I'll buy making guesses as psychohistory but I still think the best guesses should be backed by the existing psychological models we have on hand. That means: using clinical definitions from accepted, peer-reviewed sources. Not saying "Psychopaths do this; psychopaths do that." You have stated that there are "facts" about psychopathy. These "facts" seem to have originated, imho, with your layperson's understanding of Hare's work.

Problem is, Hare's index is not a viable, clinical approach to psychohistory. It does not have merit outside of being a tool for analysis on a real-world basis. Hare's index can't be used psychohistorically is what I am saying and without it, the "Eric was a psycho" crowd has no basis of evidence whatsoever. They don't even know how to define "psychopath" outside of Hare's work. Most of them probably don't even know they are keying off of Hare; they are just blindly repeating psychobabble.

 
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:44 am

This is one of the quotes that I feel speaks to how I see Eric.

I would like to hear from some psychologists who don't believe Eric was a psychopath.
I know they are out there because I saw an article by one once but can't find it anymore.
Perhaps more are afraid to speak up because of peer pressure within their professional communities.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:23 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Perhaps more are afraid to speak up because of peer pressure within their professional communities.

I'll bet you're right.

The psychopath thing never even started until Cullen got it rolling. He's not even a psychologist. His understanding of the available lit leaves a lot to be desired.




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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:08 am

I really hate that the belief that Eric was a psychopath is still considered by some people. Psychopaths/sociopaths don't have to turn off their feelings because they don't feel guilt. Eric wanted to be a psychopath and so he tried his hardest to manipulate his own mind to fit that image. The kid was a very good liar as psychopaths tend to be, but then again it could be argued that Dylan was an even better one. Eric did everything he could to come across to everyone as tough and the faked cold attitude was part of that.

In his journal he states that NBK could be stopped if people would simply give him more compliments. A psychopath doesnt need others to compliment him because they whole heartedly believe themselves to be superior. His self esteem was wrecked and he didnt feel respected. The hardass soldier attitude was a mask and the act of NBK itself was a twisted form of self therapy. If others wouldn't validate his ego in the manner he wanted then he would prove to everyone including himself that he was an "alpha" male. In the end though he couldn't escape his low self esteem and he took his life in an extremely violent manner. One truly has to hate them self to blow their head apart with a shotgun.

I understand how easy it is for people to read his rants and think "he's a psychopath" but Eric's psychological state was so much deeper than that. He was more than capable of being a sweet and caring person. His high intellect combined with the constant moving around, his lack of friends and girlfriends, and the general atmosphere of Littleton and Columbine created a depression in his mind that was too much for him to handle. The doctors who were treating him only made it worse by giving him Luvox which is known to make mental illness worse for some teenagers. Its my belief that Eric was a psychotic misdiagnosed as a simple depressive. I was best friends with a diagnosed sociopath for 3 years and I've met a few others in counseling groups. Once you deal with one long enough you come to learn they're all basically identical. I dont get the sociopathic vibe from Eric. His personality was just too "deep" for him to simply be a psychopath.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:51 am

Sometimes I think some of you get a little too deep for your own good. I can't blame many of you because it's the environment we created, labeling everything and trying to come up with an answer for every little thing but I wouldn't get it twisted, the evidence Eric left behind and the way he went about his life far outweighs the stance he was a psychopath than not.

You can make the argument he had other disorders as well but psychopathic was definitely one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I would like you (or anyone else) to provide a clinical definition of psychopathy that is not based on Hare's index.

By clinical definition, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean a definition made by a practicing clinical psychologist? A psychiatrist? One found in a psychodynamic diagnostic manual?

I perfonally prefer Hare, as he is the most precise and probably the most psychometrically sound approach taht's seen both practical usse as far as inmates go, but also wide research use showing some statistical validity.

But there's of course other psychologists who create dtheir own models when it comes to psychopathy. Theodore Millon would be a good example, I can get you some info about his model (though I'm currently away from my home for a few days, limited net access so expect this on Monday no sooner).

APA does not recigize psychopathy and isntead offered a smiliar disorder defnition called "Antisocial PD". Antisocial PD however mind you is a murky concept, most research shows it being pretty much synonymous with criminal behavior, huge number sof inmates (over 50%, often as much as 90%) fit the criteria, becaus ethe criteria are so wide and murky. I'd advise against using Antisocial PD in research, as pretty much its just a poor theorethical construct, mostly a sort of compromise definition made by APA.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I would then like to see you (or anyone) make a psychohistorical argument based on this definition and on the evidence we have that Eric was a psychopath.

If you mean a diagnosis, then I repeat its not possible. If you mean "educated guess", then I already did this in the past and you probably read my posts on the matter so I won't be able to offer much in the way of further info.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I can do this in regard to Eric having PTSD. I can do it to establish that he suffered from a dissociative personality disorder; I can do it to show that he may have been a borderline personality. I can do this to demonstrate that Dylan was clinically depressed. I can do it to show that Dylan was clinically suicidal.

If we want to speak precise psychological terms, let's do so. What do you exactly mean by "establish" and "demonstrate"?


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What I can't do is use a clinical definition of psychopathy and the existing evidence to show the Eric Harris was a psychopath. And neither can you, Cullen, or anyone else.

Same case. What do you exactly mean by "show"?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'll buy making guesses as psychohistory but I still think the best guesses should be backed by the existing psychological models we have on hand. That means: using clinical definitions from accepted, peer-reviewed sources.
There's lots of competing models, some more widely accepted than others. Hare produced what are probably the most widely accepted model, definition and diagnostic tool for psychopathy. If you don't like his model, fair enough.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Not saying "Psychopaths do this; psychopaths do that." You have stated that there are "facts" about psychopathy. These "facts" seem to have originated, imho, with your layperson's understanding of Hare's work.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not gonna present any ifnormation atht could help people identify me in RL (I like my privacy thank you), so you can either trust me on my studies in Warsaw University, or dhoose to believe taht I'm making false claims. Your choice.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Problem is, Hare's index is not a viable, clinical approach to psychohistory. It does not have merit outside of being a tool for analysis on a real-world basis. Hare's index can't be used psychohistorically is what I am saying
What makes you believe that? Hare's model and PCL-R is as good as any other model out there when it comes to speculation about deceased people (and equally bad when it coems to diagnosing them). In fact, I'd say its somewhat better, as it includes some factors that can be assessed by looking at the person's past actions and criminal history. 

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I perfonally prefer Hare, as he is the most precise and probably the most psychometrically sound approach taht's seen both practical usse as far as inmates go, but also wide research use showing some statistical validity.

But there's of course other psychologists who create dtheir own models when it comes to psychopathy. Theodore Millon would be a good example, I can get you some info about his model (though I'm currently away from my home for a few days, limited net access so expect this on Monday no sooner).


Sabratha -- Your studies do not seem to have informed you about the nature of psychological theory, diagnosis, or the use of clinical models to present a psycho-historical interpretation of individual people or events.

I'd appreciate any info you have on Millon or anyone else, thanks.  Very Happy  Meanwhile here are a few points:

1. Hare's model for psychopathy is not an applicable tool for psycho-history.

2. Even it were, you cannot make predictions about behavior based on a psychological diagnosis.

This means that even if you could use Hare's index in a meaningful way to do a postmortem analysis of Eric Harris (which you can't) it would be of little use in providing any meaningful insight into Eric's behavior or the "reasons" for NBK. A colloquial way of putting this would be "Not all psychopaths become murderers."

Therefore you are in a triple-fallacy here. First, you are using Hare's model to analyze Eric Harris when Hare himself insists with fervor that the psychopathy index is to be used ONLY under clinical conditions by experts and it is NOT applicable for a layman's use in any way. It is a clinical tool. It is NOT a predictive tool. You are using it as a source for psycho-history and it is NOT applicable. Just like a hammer can't sew a pair of pants.

Second, even if you could use Hare's model, it means little or nothing  because a clinical diagnosis of a personality disorder does NOT predict behavior, nor does it "explain" behaviors.

Thirdly, even if Hare's model could be used in any meaningful way, and there was an iota of a chance that the index could predict behavior (which it CAN'T) Eric Harris still does NOT fulfill the criteria of being a psychopath.

What you are engaged in is psychobabble.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

In fact, I'd say its somewhat better, as it includes some factors that can be assessed by looking at the person's past actions and criminal history. 

Like what?  What factors?  Keep in mind this quote before you respond: "An individual's score may have important consequences for his or her future, and because the potential for harm if the test is used or administered incorrectly is considerable, Hare argues that the test should be considered valid only if administered by a suitably qualified and experienced clinician under scientifically controlled and licensed, standardized conditions."


Again, you cannot use Hare's psychopathy index for psycho-history. Is that so hard to understand, really? scratch


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
APA does not recigize psychopathy and isntead offered a smiliar disorder defnition called "Antisocial PD". Antisocial PD however mind you is a murky concept, most research shows it being pretty much synonymous with criminal behavior, huge number sof inmates (over 50%, often as much as 90%) fit the criteria, becaus ethe criteria are so wide and murky. I'd advise against using Antisocial PD in research, as pretty much its just a poor theorethical construct, mostly a sort of compromise definition made by APA. APA does not recigize psychopathy and isntead offered a smiliar disorder defnition called "Antisocial PD". Antisocial PD however mind you is a murky concept, most research shows it being pretty much synonymous with criminal behavior, huge number sof inmates (over 50%, often as much as 90%) fit the criteria, becaus ethe criteria are so wide and murky. I'd advise against using Antisocial PD in research, as pretty much its just a poor theorethical construct, mostly a sort of compromise definition made by APA.  

Yep. So why even bother trying to shoehorn Hare's work into your psycho-historical diagnosis? Answer: because it is more conducive to psychobabble.  Throwing around empty psychological terms is way to make your argument sound studied and important when it really boils down to "Psycho and Emo did it."

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:57 pm

I think that quote from Eric proves he was a psychopath. Hare says that "genuine emotion is short-lived and ego-centric" in psychopaths, which is exactly what Eric displays in that quote.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

1. Hare's model for psychopathy is not an applicable tool for psycho-history.

Do you realize that Dr. Robert Hare himself has applied it to dozens of dead people, and endorsed its application to Harris on his own website?

Do you realize that hundreds of doctors apply it all the time to dead people in consultation with the FBI?

And that several, including Dr. Frank Ochberg and Dr. Peter Langman, have profiled Eric as a psychopath with Hare's blessing?

Disagree if you want, but don't say it is not an applicable tool for psycho-history, because doctors do it all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:13 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

1. Hare's model for psychopathy is not an applicable tool for psycho-history.

Do you realize that Dr. Robert Hare himself has applied it to dozens of dead people, and endorsed its application to Harris on his own website?

Do you realize that hundreds of doctors apply it all the time to dead people in consultation with the FBI?

And that several, including Dr. Frank Ochberg and Dr. Peter Langman, have profiled Eric as a psychopath with Hare's blessing?

Disagree if you want, but don't say it is not an applicable tool for psycho-history, because doctors do it all the time.


I appreciate your referencing Ochberg and Langman, but I still feel that using Hare's psychopathy index as a tool for psycho-history is dubious at best.

Here is a quote from Hare's website: "assessments require the integration of information from interview, file, and collateral sources. Information from these various sources is rarely available unless someone is already in the mental health or criminal justice systems."

Please note that this latter stipulation pretty much eliminates the psychopathy test from being used in any meaningful way on someone who is not directly audited. Please note that the mental health professional who audited Eric cited OCD as a diagnosis and they acted on this diagnosis by prescribing him Luvox. So that's it for a clinical diagnosis of Eric Harris. Period.

That is the only clinical diagnosis we will ever have about Eric Harris.

Psycho-history is distinct from clinical psychology. One is based in the humanities; the other is based in science. Even if the psychohistorical profiles you cite above claim that Eric Harris was a psychopath that still doesn't give you,me, or anyone else any meaningful information about Eric or NBK. This is because even a clinical diagnosis of mental illness is incapable of predicting behavior. Furthermore, psycho-history is distinct from a clinical diagnosis. In fact, the APA does not even accept psychopathy as a clinical disorder. You can use the Hare checklist for psycho-history as a diversion, just like you can kick a can down the road, but you're not any more likely to get any meaningful information out of it than you are to get some beer out of a dusty can.

For the record, you're right, I shouldn't say that the Hare checklist can't be used for psycho-history; I should say it can't be used in any meaningful way. So I'll stand by that. It's not applicable. You can't get a clinical diagnosis out of it because it isn't even recognized by the APA and you can't apply it to someone who is not under direct auditing of a mental health expert on psychopathy and Hare's checklist -- so yeah, that pretty much renders it useless, particularity for the layman. It devolves almost instantly to psychobabble.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:28 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

1. Hare's model for psychopathy is not an applicable tool for psycho-history.

Do you realize that Dr. Robert Hare himself has applied it to dozens of dead people, and endorsed its application to Harris on his own website?

Do you realize that hundreds of doctors apply it all the time to dead people in consultation with the FBI?

And that several, including Dr. Frank Ochberg and Dr. Peter Langman, have profiled Eric as a psychopath with Hare's blessing?

Disagree if you want, but don't say it is not an applicable tool for psycho-history, because doctors do it all the time.


I think it is horribly wrong for a mental health professional to definitively diagnose any deceased person, especially a deceased person they never ever spoke to, much less treated. I am almost positive that goes against professional ethics.
IMO if it doesn't, it should.

I wonder if that practice has become more acceptable in today's media saturated environment.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:33 am

Dr. Hare and hundreds of other psychiatrists apply it to dead people all the time.  And I tend to side with doctors and their informed opinion over a layman's opinion.  Sorry.

The FBI obviously thinks they get "useful" information out of it because they have spent millions on it. I guess you know better than doctors and the FBI on how to do their jobs.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:38 am



[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I really hate that the belief that Eric was a psychopath is still considered by some people. Psychopaths/sociopaths don't have to turn off their feelings because they don't feel guilt. Eric wanted to be a psychopath and so he tried his hardest to manipulate his own mind to fit that image. The kid was a very good liar as psychopaths tend to be, but then again it could be argued that Dylan was an even better one. Eric did everything he could to come across to everyone as tough and the faked cold attitude was part of that.

In his journal he states that NBK could be stopped if people would simply give him more compliments. A psychopath doesnt need others to compliment him because they whole heartedly believe themselves to be superior. His self esteem was wrecked and he didnt feel respected. The hardass soldier attitude was a mask and the act of NBK itself was a twisted form of self therapy. If others wouldn't validate his ego in the manner he wanted then he would prove to everyone including himself that he was an "alpha" male. In the end though he couldn't escape his low self esteem and he took his life in an extremely violent manner. One truly has to hate them self to blow their head apart with a shotgun.

I understand how easy it is for people to read his rants and think "he's a psychopath" but Eric's psychological state was so much deeper than that. He was more than capable of being a sweet and caring person. His high intellect combined with the constant moving around, his lack of friends and girlfriends, and the general atmosphere of Littleton and Columbine created a depression in his mind that was too much for him to handle. The doctors who were treating him only made it worse by giving him Luvox which is known to make mental illness worse for some teenagers. Its my belief that Eric was a psychotic misdiagnosed as a simple depressive. I was best friends with a diagnosed sociopath for 3 years and I've met a few others in counseling groups. Once you deal with one long enough you come to learn they're all basically identical. I dont get the sociopathic vibe from Eric. His personality was just too "deep" for him to simply be a psychopath.


I don't know if I can agree that Eric was always psychotic, although I think its possible that he and maybe even Dylan slipped into a psychotic type state towards the very end , because what they were going to do was so surreal.
I heartily agree with the rest of your post however and feel that its terrific.
Very well written, detailed and truthful.

I would like to ask you about your former friend and the other psychopaths you knew? What were they like? What was it like to be around them? How did they treat you?
I assume that you had to eventually stop being friends with your close friend because of this condition?
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:27 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

1. Hare's model for psychopathy is not an applicable tool for psycho-history.
What do you mean exactly by psycho-history? If you mean this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Then please rest assured that Psychology as a science does not recognize the validity of psychohistory, denies any scientific value to it and states that deceased people cannot be diagnozed, unless evaluated by a qualified psychologist during their lifetime. This is my stance as well.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
2. Even it were, you cannot make predictions about behavior based on a psychological diagnosis.
As explaiend before, we cannot even attempt to make a diagnosis of Eric. So your point is moot.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This means that even if you could use Hare's index in a meaningful way to do a postmortem analysis of Eric Harris (which you can't) it would be of little use in providing any meaningful insight into Eric's behavior or the "reasons" for NBK. A colloquial way of putting this would be "Not all psychopaths become murderers."
If my gues sthat Eric was in fact a Psychopath is true, then it could in fact help to explain several of his actions and shed some additional light on some statements he is making in his journal (the "people who wronged me" type of statements for example which start to make a lot of sense if you look at them as expressions of psychopathic grandiosity or narcissistim).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
First, you are using Hare's model to analyze Eric Harris when Hare himself insists with fervor that the psychopathy index is to be used ONLY under clinical conditions by experts and it is NOT applicable for a layman's use in any way. It is a clinical tool. It is NOT a predictive tool. You are using it as a source for psycho-history and it is NOT applicable. Just like a hammer can't sew a pair of pants.
You are again confusing a diagnosis with what I termed as nothing more than an educated guess. Moreover, you are confusing PCL-R (diagnostic tool) with Hare's model of psychopathy in general.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Second, even if you could use Hare's model, it means little or nothing  because a clinical diagnosis of a personality disorder does NOT predict behavior, nor does it "explain" behaviors.
Same case - you are confusing a diagnosis with a lose assessment based on Eric's behavior and writing. We cannot attempt to make a diagnosis of Eric, thus this point is also moot.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This is because even a clinical diagnosis of mental illness is incapable of predicting behavior.
Actually a diagnosis often has some predictive value, this of course depends on the behavior in question, the disorder, the validity of the tools used etc.

However, in the case of CHS we are nor making a diagnosis. Moreover we are not using a model to predict behavior anyways. We are using it to interpret past statements and behavior that had already taken place. Thus your point here is also moot.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Again, you cannot use Hare's psychopathy index for psycho-history. Is that so hard to understand, really? scratch
As explained above, I do not consider psychohistory to be a valid branch of science at all and it should not be treated as such.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Yep. So why even bother trying to shoehorn Hare's work into your psycho-historical diagnosis? Answer: because it is more conducive to psychobabble.  Throwing around empty psychological terms is way to make your argument sound studied and important when it really boils down to "Psycho and Emo did it."
Can you prove this?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

1. Hare's model for psychopathy is not an applicable tool for psycho-history.

Do you realize that Dr. Robert Hare himself has applied it to dozens of dead people, and endorsed its application to Harris on his own website?

Do you realize that hundreds of doctors apply it all the time to dead people in consultation with the FBI?

And that several, including Dr. Frank Ochberg and Dr. Peter Langman, have profiled Eric as a psychopath with Hare's blessing?

Disagree if you want, but don't say it is not an applicable tool for psycho-history, because doctors do it all the time.

Yep. That's the key difference between a formal diagnosis of a living person (with all the legal ramifications) and a loose assessment of a deceased person (which I prefer to call an "educated guess" instea dof beating around the bush).

There's a lot of confusion amongst lay people in particular about what is a diagnosis and what is not. I admittedly migth have contributed to said confusion on the forums back in the day, due to the naming of a thread "Diagnosis Dylan Klebold" (even though in the content of my posts in said thread, I clearly indicated that its not a formal diagnosis by any means).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I think it is horribly wrong for a mental health professional to definitively diagnose any deceased person, especially a deceased person they never ever spoke to, much less treated.
Words of wisdom if I ever seen any. That's why I stress again: I'm not making a diagnosis at all. I'm making nothing more than an educated guess and I've always been open about this. If I had been ambiguous at times by using imprecise terms (such as assessment) than it is obviously my fault and I apologize for any confusion this might have caused.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
]
I don't know if I can agree that Eric was always psychotic, although I think its possible that he and maybe even Dylan slipped into a psychotic type state towards the very end , because what they were going to do was so surreal.

You mean psychotic or psychopathic? Becuase these are two very different things. Psychotic in short and simple terms means stuff like delusions, hallucinations, seeing things which aren't there, hearing voices taht are not there etc.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In his journal he states that NBK could be stopped if people would simply give him more compliments. A psychopath doesnt need others to compliment him because they whole heartedly believe themselves to be superior.
I belive Langman adressed this part in his book and interpreted it as Eric being very narcissistic (even for a psychopath) and I would tend to agree.

Having said that, Eric's psychopathy (or lack of such) is certialy up for debate and we can't relaly "prove" one or the other. I believe that interpreting eric as a psychopath sheds some light on soem of his more obscure and controversial statements, fits in with the behavior he displayed during the shooting. But that's it - the fact taht it helps us explain some of his behavior or writings doesn't mean it is necessarily true. And it certainly does not in any way "justify" NBK as an act of a mentally ill person mind you.

This is one of my gripes with some of the interpretations of NBK. Those that are constructed in order to justify NBK and shift the blame onto the victims, school, parents, jocks, drugs, music, videogames etc rather than explain the minds and motives of Eric and Dylan.
Sure, school, joks, parents, movies and so on might have influenced the way Eric and Dylan thought and behaved. But the fact is taht virtually all of CHS students were exposed to these factors and only E&D chose to go on a rampage. Thus an explanation taht does not start from the analysis of the personalities and beliefs of the killers is imho a wrong one.

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