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 Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"

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Gustopoet2

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:48 pm

Sabratha, if you do not accept psycho-history as clinical science and you agree that an "educated guess" is all that can be done with Hare's index, then why mention Hare at all?

Please see the definition of psychobabble:

"a form of speech or writing that uses psychological jargon, buzzwords, and esoteric language to create an impression of truth or plausibility. The term implies that the speaker or writer lacks the experience and understanding necessary for the proper use of psychological terms. Additionally, it may imply that the content of speech deviates markedly from common sense and good judgement.

Frequent use of psychobabble can associate a clinical, psychological word with meaningless, or less meaningful, buzzword definitions. Laypersons often use such words when they describe life problems as clinical maladies even though the clinical terms are not meaningful or appropriate."

So, "psychopathy" is not recognized by the APA; psycho-history is not science, and Hare himself claims that the index shouldn't be used by laypersons even to make educated guesses.

So all reference to Eric Harris being a psychopath (or having psychopathic tendencies) by laypersons that is based on Hare's clinical (but not APA accepted) approach is by definition psychobabble. Period.

You may take a baroque, seemingly studied approach to psychobabble but it still has no clinical validity whatsoever. And is therefore absolutely meaningless in terms of gaining any insight into Columbine.

Also, I feel that are not reading my posts very closely as I have already mentioned the distinction between psycho-history and clinical psychology many, many times upstream, along with placing Hare's model in context, many times.

You or anyone else who wants to assert or imply that Eric Harris was a psychopath has to contend with two main issues: 1) you have no CLINICAL basis for making this assertion 2) You are engaging in dubious psycho-history.

It is all well and good for you to say you understand the difference between psycho-history and clinical diagnosis, but in your assertions (and others') claims about Eric Harris, this distinction is never present. It is "Eric Harris was a psychopath. Hare's model proves it."

Cullen even hawks his book as "We finally know why the killers did it!"

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Psychopathy is not an accepted designation of mental illness by the APA; psycho-history is not a science, Hare's model is ill-equipped to be used as  tool for psycho-history; therefore, the entire argument that Eric Harris was a psychopath is nothing more than a bunch of unsubstantiated drivel, perpetuated by people who would really just like to sweep NBK under the rug and spout  pseudoscience to make themselves seem important and knowledgeable.

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Last edited by Gustopoet2 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sabratha

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:26 pm

Quote :
It is all well and good for you to say you understand the difference between psycho-history and clinical diagnosis, but in your assertions (and others') clams about Eric Harris, this distinction is never present. It is "Eric Harris was a psychopath. Hare's model proves it."

Feel free to quote me on that. In every longer and more detailed thread I wrote about this topic I have stressed that I'm not making a formal diagnosis. If in some other post I have abbreviated it to and oversimplified it as "Hare's model proves it", then I'm sorry for the confusion, however I do not recall any post where I have said this.

I mention Hare because I believe an educated guess is the best we will get either way (and Hare is at least a widely accepted and thoroughly tested model using reliable diagnostic tools). Every psychological professional will tell you the same - you can't really diagnose Eric as normal and non-disordered, not by using Hare's model, not by using any other psychological model, not by using any sociological, medical or anthropological model either. Because he's dead and cannot be properly evaluated.

I don't feel like continuig on about this, as I feel we'l just be goign round in circles.  

I don't feel strongly enough about Eric's psychopathy to care all that much. Eric is dead, he'll never be properly diagnosed hence saying that he was normal or not is just guesswork anyways.

With all I know about Eric, I believe he likely was psychopathic to some degree, given his actions and how these might tie in with psychopathic behavior. But we will never be sure and everyone is free to make their own conclusion.


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Gustopoet2

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:10 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Quote :
It is all well and good for you to say you understand the difference between psycho-history and clinical diagnosis, but in your assertions (and others') clams about Eric Harris, this distinction is never present. It is "Eric Harris was a psychopath. Hare's model proves it."

Feel free to quote me on that. In every longer and more detailed thread I wrote about this topic I have stressed that I'm not making a formal diagnosis. If in some other post I have abbreviated it to and oversimplified it as "Hare's model proves it", then I'm sorry for the confusion, however I do not recall any post where I have said this.

If you are not making a formal diagnosis, then there is no validity to using the term "psychopath." It is a clinical term. Using a clinical term to describe an informal diagnosis is by definition psychobabble. I have no problem with people playing armchair psychologist; I am happy to do so myself. There is a very fine line between psycho-history and psychobabble. The line is blurred so far as to be meaningless when you use Hare's psychological checklist for psychopathy because of Hare's own admonition that is not applicable for use by a layperson under any circumstances.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I mention Hare because I believe an educated guess is the best we will get either way (and Hare is at least a widely accepted and thoroughly tested model using reliable diagnostic tools). Every psychological professional will tell you the same - you can't really diagnose Eric as normal and non-disordered, not by using Hare's model, not by using any other psychological model, not by using any sociological, medical or anthropological model either. Because he's dead and cannot be properly evaluated.

Right. What you are not acknowledging is that the "educated guess" is basically worthless form anything other than an anecdotal point of view.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


I don't feel like continuig on about this, as I feel we'l just be goign round in circles.  

I don't feel strongly enough about Eric's psychopathy to care all that much. Eric is dead, he'll never be properly diagnosed hence saying that he was normal or not is just guesswork anyways.

With all I know about Eric, I believe he likely was psychopathic to some degree, given his actions and how these might tie in with psychopathic behavior. But we will never be sure and everyone is free to make their own conclusion.


Fair enough. If someone can provide an actual clinical basis to support the idea that Eric was a psychopath I'd love to hear it. The psycho-historical basis seems to me to be pretty flimsy.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:05 pm

Doctors do postmortem diagnoses all the time.  Every one that's looked at the massacre said Eric's a psychopath.  Hare even linked it on his site.

If you want to say you don't believe it, that's fine.  Just don't say there's no clinical basis for it.  There is. It's Dr. Ochberg, Dr. Langman, and Dr. Hare all saying it.  

They are all psychiatrists and they know a lot better than you what they can and can't do.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:48 pm

Eric as if justified by saying that he has a goal, which motivates him to do these horrible things. He never apologizes to the victims, but constantly justifies its actions. Something that actually I'm not a monster, but you're all going to die anyway, because I decided so.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric: "I have to turn off my feelings"   Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Doctors do postmortem diagnoses all the time.  Every one that's looked at the massacre said Eric's a psychopath.  Hare even linked it on his site.

If you want to say you don't believe it, that's fine.  Just don't say there's no clinical basis for it.  There is. It's Dr. Ochberg, Dr. Langman, and Dr. Hare all saying it.  

They are all psychiatrists and they know a lot better than you what they can and can't do.
Can you link Hare's endorsement of Eric's psychopath diagnosis? I remembered you saying this several times and I tried to locate it but I could only find a link to Cullen's article in a section with a disclaimer that this was media coverage on the topic of psychopathy posted "strictly for interest sake" with a special note for this particular article saying
hare.org wrote:
An article by Dave Cullen, April 20, 2004. *NOTE: Some of Dr. Hare's work was used by the investigators and the writer but Dr. Hare was not directly involved in the psychological assessments.
It doesn't sound like he has endorsed the diagnosis personally and none of his quotes in the article appear to be specifically about Columbine and are, instead, general comments on psychopathy.

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