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 Dave Cullen 's latest strike

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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:28 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
People, you don't need a peer reviewed scientific article to see that Eric's behavior showed that he was deficient in the areas of empathy/remorse.

Selectively. He did show remorse to his family and friends in the final basement tape. One could argue that his (though selective) lack of remorse was because he was a psychopath, but then one could say it came from nothing more than a built up hatred towards most people. It is not conclusive proof of anything.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Great post. I agree.
I used to pretty much say and think many of the same things as Eric did and I do not believe that I was ever a psychopath.
Sometimes peoples life experiences alone can bring them to that kind of hatred and anger.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:33 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Here is my comment:

You are indeed correct that Dave Cullen's book is full of inaccurate and misleading information. Unfortunately, you take the ball and run with it in the wrong direction, focusing on the tired issue of antidepressants.

The main problem with Mr. Cullen's book is that his characterization of Eric Harris as a swaggering, confident ladies' man and Dylan Klebold as his cowering emo lapdog is so thoroughly at variance with the established, known facts of the two boys' lives that one wonders how a reasonably intelligent (and honest) person who spent ten years looking at the available evidence could have come to such a conclusion.

I could write a book debunking Cullenbine, but for now I'll make these points:

As evidence of Harris' popularity and promiscuity, Cullen cites the testimony of a now-discredited "Columbine fangirl" (or groupie, if you will) named Brenda Parker. (She claimed to have been Eric's lover, but later admitted to the police that she had made the whole thing up.) Cullen has steadfastly refused to acknowledge or correct this error.

It is clear that Eric harbored deep, deep resentment over his lack of success with girls and his low social standing.

He wrote:
* Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off. then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me... constantly... therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED. as of this date I have enough explosives to kill about 100 people, and then if I get a couple bayonetts, swords, axes, whatever I'll be able to kill at least 10 more. and that just isnt enough! GUNS! I need guns! Give me some fucking firearms!
* Whatever I do people make fun of me, and sometimes directly to my face. I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much huh! HA!

Those are brief excerpts from his journal. In the past, in response to various things that I have written, Cullen has claimed that I "cherry-pick" entries to make Eric seem as if he had lower self-esteem than he did. Cullen believes that Eric's numerous expressions of contempt for "all the fat ugly retarded crippled dumbass stupid fuckheads in the world" indicate that he regarded himself as a truly-superior being. I don't buy that. He hated everyone and everything, but first and foremost he loathed himself.

This is the last thing that he wrote: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo."

As Westword reporter Alan Prendergast put it, "That is how the journal ends - not with the howl of the wolf-god, but the whine of the pathetic geek who can't land a prom date. And decides everybody deserves to die."

(In an article published in August 1999, Prendergast - an underrated figure in Columbine journalism - debunked most of the myths that Cullen claimed to have debunked in his book.)

Eric's writings are supremely angry - there are parts where his rage boils over into descriptions of brutal cannibalistic sex fantasies. (But some of Dylan's writings are so disjointed and bizarre that I am inclined to agree with Peter Langman's view that he was possibly borderline schizophrenic.)

Here are some quotes from newspaper articles on the basement tapes, written by reporters who (unlike Cullen) actually got to see them when they were screened for the first (and only) time by Jeffco in December 1999:

* But Harris shows some anger toward his father, Wayne, a military man who moved his family across the country several times. Harris talks of always being the new, "white, scrawny" kid. "I had to go through all that shit so many times," Harris says.
* "Only four or five people here didn't rip on me - four or five out of the whole state of Colorado!'' Eric Harris moaned to his pal. If he were just able to get in small fistfights, like he used to, Harris says. Now, he'd get suspended, his parents sued. Now, he says, pointing his shotgun "Arlene'' at the screen, he has no choice.
* "You know who you are. Thanks. You made me feel good. Think about that for a while, f---ing bitches." - Harris, after listing five girls "who never even called me back."

Eric constantly felt slighted. This might be evidence of his psychopathy, and/or it might be evidence that he was extremely sensitive to his very real inability to live up to the masculine ideal that some of his fellow students (and his own brother) embodied. He was a little geeky guy.

(Next to Klebold, who Cullen would have us believe trembled at the prospect of Eric's wrath, he looks like a midget. Klebold's body language in the clips of the two boys together is always confident - he stands up to his full 6'3"/6'4"-ish height.)

Here is a quote from a Denver Post article (1999-12-14):

"Contrary to popular opinion in the Columbine community, Harris comes off in the videos as the more sympathetic character of the two. Portrayed in the days after the attack as angry and weird, he is apologetic and somewhat remorseful in the tapes. He's careful to absolve his parents of any blame and shows sympathy to his mother, Kathy, for what he is about to do, trying not to 'bond' with her because he will soon die.

"'It's not their fault. They had no f---ing clue,' Harris says. 'It would not solve anything to arrest them.'"

Was Eric acting, enjoying putting on a show? Cullen would claim that he was. But he can't explain away the fact that Klebold came across as a bloodthirsty monster:

"Klebold is monstrous on the videotapes, openly raging about his lifelong hidden anger and all the slights he suffered at the hands of students, teachers and his family. He smiles ghoulishly into the camera, lovingly handles weapons and constantly combs his fingers through his shoulder-length red hair. He shows no contrition, only deadly aggression.

'This goes to all my family: I'm sorry I have so much rage,' Klebold says. 'You made me what I am. Actually, you just added to what I am.'"

And a Rocky Mountain News article (1999-12-13):

"Then Harris says, 'Let's talk about our parents for a minute.'

"Klebold begins coldly. 'It's my life,' he says. 'They gave it to me, I can do with it what I want. . . . If they don't like it, I'm sorry, but that's too bad.'

"Harris is gentler. 'They might have made some mistakes that they weren't really aware of in their life with me, but they couldn't have helped it.'

"Both boys say again and again that their parents are great.

"The Klebolds saw this tape last fall. They cried. The Harris parents know the tape exists but haven't seen it.

"'It s--- to do this to them,' Harris says. 'They're going to go through hell once we're finished. They're never going to see the end of it.'

"Klebold promises his parents there was nothing they could have done to stop what will happen.

"'You can't understand what we feel; you can't understand no matter how much you think you can,' he says.

"Harris plays with a pair of scissors, rapidly snapping the blades together and apart, together and apart. They laugh at the noise.

"He explains why he didn't spend more time with his family.

"'I didn't want to do any more bonding with them. It will be a lot easier on them if I haven't been around as much.'"

Would a psychopath with no regard for others bother to make such remarks? Again, Cullen would say that Eric is acting for the camera. (Why a guy who wanted to come across as a badass muthafucka would try to spoil that image by talking about his mother is beyond me.)

On another tape, Eric did start to cry while reminiscing about old friends. Cullen (who hasn't seen the tape) claims that it was an act. Unlike him, I'll reserve judgment until I see it for myself.

The bullying angle might be somewhat exaggerated. But at a school where hulking jocks did demonstrably enjoy many privileges denied to the rest of the student body - not the least of which was the right to torment others without fear of punishment - Eric was a short, scrawny, geeky boy with a shrunken chest. His older brother was the perfect son - athletic enough to make the varsity football team but smart enough to make the honor roll. Even most of Eric's friends - fellow computer nerds - were well over six feet; they literally towered over him. Dylan, an ugly (sorry, fangirls) ogre of a boy who seldom bathed, had a girl friend (not a girlfriend, per se) who begged him to take her to the prom; Eric, a decent-looking guy who kept himself well-scrubbed, begged six girls for prom dates and was turned down by each and every one of them. Every minute of every day, he was subjected to reminders of his failure to measure up.

I maintain that Eric's body language at the beginning of this clip is revealing:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When Eric sees the larger boys approaching, around the 0:15 mark, he stops talking and tenses up. (The other boy seems them first, and stops talking - he stares straight ahead, not taking his eyes off of them.) He stands as erect as he can, steeling himself for a confrontation. But as he nears them, he lowers his head and cowers like a dog. (Some claim that he is "ramming" through the wall of jocks in a macho manner, but I disagree.)

Also note that the jock on the right side of the screen is flipping off the camera. It's hard to see, due to the pixelation, but if you look closely you can tell that his middle finger is extended. So the mutual dislike and contempt between the "popular" crowd and the "outcasts" was very real.

Later, in the cafeteria, Eric was humiliated in front of some other boys when a girl who had promised to meet him instead walked out of the room without saying a word:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Around 11:24, he slouches and lowers his head until his chin is resting in his hands. His body language indicates that he is giving up, accepting defeat. He has already lost - that girl has already walked up the stairs and out of his life, at least for the moment - so there's no point in puffing himself up any longer.

Examine Eric's facial expression around the 11:40 mark. Is that the face of a swaggering ladies' man at the top of his Game, or that of a dorky boy who is beating himself up over his pathetic inability to prevent yet another cruel rejection? (Or neither?)

I could (and probably will) go on.

@LPorter.
Excellent response. Well written and thought out.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:34 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Here is my comment:

You are indeed correct that Dave Cullen's book is full of inaccurate and misleading information. Unfortunately, you take the ball and run with it in the wrong direction, focusing on the tired issue of antidepressants.

The main problem with Mr. Cullen's book is that his characterization of Eric Harris as a swaggering, confident ladies' man and Dylan Klebold as his cowering emo lapdog is so thoroughly at variance with the established, known facts of the two boys' lives that one wonders how a reasonably intelligent (and honest) person who spent ten years looking at the available evidence could have come to such a conclusion.

I could write a book debunking Cullenbine, but for now I'll make these points:

As evidence of Harris' popularity and promiscuity, Cullen cites the testimony of a now-discredited "Columbine fangirl" (or groupie, if you will) named Brenda Parker. (She claimed to have been Eric's lover, but later admitted to the police that she had made the whole thing up.) Cullen has steadfastly refused to acknowledge or correct this error.

It is clear that Eric harbored deep, deep resentment over his lack of success with girls and his low social standing.

He wrote:
* Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off. then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me... constantly... therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED. as of this date I have enough explosives to kill about 100 people, and then if I get a couple bayonetts, swords, axes, whatever I'll be able to kill at least 10 more. and that just isnt enough! GUNS! I need guns! Give me some fucking firearms!
* Whatever I do people make fun of me, and sometimes directly to my face. I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much huh! HA!

Those are brief excerpts from his journal. In the past, in response to various things that I have written, Cullen has claimed that I "cherry-pick" entries to make Eric seem as if he had lower self-esteem than he did. Cullen believes that Eric's numerous expressions of contempt for "all the fat ugly retarded crippled dumbass stupid fuckheads in the world" indicate that he regarded himself as a truly-superior being. I don't buy that. He hated everyone and everything, but first and foremost he loathed himself.

This is the last thing that he wrote: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo."

As Westword reporter Alan Prendergast put it, "That is how the journal ends - not with the howl of the wolf-god, but the whine of the pathetic geek who can't land a prom date. And decides everybody deserves to die."

(In an article published in August 1999, Prendergast - an underrated figure in Columbine journalism - debunked most of the myths that Cullen claimed to have debunked in his book.)

Eric's writings are supremely angry - there are parts where his rage boils over into descriptions of brutal cannibalistic sex fantasies. (But some of Dylan's writings are so disjointed and bizarre that I am inclined to agree with Peter Langman's view that he was possibly borderline schizophrenic.)

Here are some quotes from newspaper articles on the basement tapes, written by reporters who (unlike Cullen) actually got to see them when they were screened for the first (and only) time by Jeffco in December 1999:

* But Harris shows some anger toward his father, Wayne, a military man who moved his family across the country several times. Harris talks of always being the new, "white, scrawny" kid. "I had to go through all that shit so many times," Harris says.
* "Only four or five people here didn't rip on me - four or five out of the whole state of Colorado!'' Eric Harris moaned to his pal. If he were just able to get in small fistfights, like he used to, Harris says. Now, he'd get suspended, his parents sued. Now, he says, pointing his shotgun "Arlene'' at the screen, he has no choice.
* "You know who you are. Thanks. You made me feel good. Think about that for a while, f---ing bitches." - Harris, after listing five girls "who never even called me back."

Eric constantly felt slighted. This might be evidence of his psychopathy, and/or it might be evidence that he was extremely sensitive to his very real inability to live up to the masculine ideal that some of his fellow students (and his own brother) embodied. He was a little geeky guy.

(Next to Klebold, who Cullen would have us believe trembled at the prospect of Eric's wrath, he looks like a midget. Klebold's body language in the clips of the two boys together is always confident - he stands up to his full 6'3"/6'4"-ish height.)

Here is a quote from a Denver Post article (1999-12-14):

"Contrary to popular opinion in the Columbine community, Harris comes off in the videos as the more sympathetic character of the two. Portrayed in the days after the attack as angry and weird, he is apologetic and somewhat remorseful in the tapes. He's careful to absolve his parents of any blame and shows sympathy to his mother, Kathy, for what he is about to do, trying not to 'bond' with her because he will soon die.

"'It's not their fault. They had no f---ing clue,' Harris says. 'It would not solve anything to arrest them.'"

Was Eric acting, enjoying putting on a show? Cullen would claim that he was. But he can't explain away the fact that Klebold came across as a bloodthirsty monster:

"Klebold is monstrous on the videotapes, openly raging about his lifelong hidden anger and all the slights he suffered at the hands of students, teachers and his family. He smiles ghoulishly into the camera, lovingly handles weapons and constantly combs his fingers through his shoulder-length red hair. He shows no contrition, only deadly aggression.

'This goes to all my family: I'm sorry I have so much rage,' Klebold says. 'You made me what I am. Actually, you just added to what I am.'"

And a Rocky Mountain News article (1999-12-13):

"Then Harris says, 'Let's talk about our parents for a minute.'

"Klebold begins coldly. 'It's my life,' he says. 'They gave it to me, I can do with it what I want. . . . If they don't like it, I'm sorry, but that's too bad.'

"Harris is gentler. 'They might have made some mistakes that they weren't really aware of in their life with me, but they couldn't have helped it.'

"Both boys say again and again that their parents are great.

"The Klebolds saw this tape last fall. They cried. The Harris parents know the tape exists but haven't seen it.

"'It s--- to do this to them,' Harris says. 'They're going to go through hell once we're finished. They're never going to see the end of it.'

"Klebold promises his parents there was nothing they could have done to stop what will happen.

"'You can't understand what we feel; you can't understand no matter how much you think you can,' he says.

"Harris plays with a pair of scissors, rapidly snapping the blades together and apart, together and apart. They laugh at the noise.

"He explains why he didn't spend more time with his family.

"'I didn't want to do any more bonding with them. It will be a lot easier on them if I haven't been around as much.'"

Would a psychopath with no regard for others bother to make such remarks? Again, Cullen would say that Eric is acting for the camera. (Why a guy who wanted to come across as a badass muthafucka would try to spoil that image by talking about his mother is beyond me.)

On another tape, Eric did start to cry while reminiscing about old friends. Cullen (who hasn't seen the tape) claims that it was an act. Unlike him, I'll reserve judgment until I see it for myself.

The bullying angle might be somewhat exaggerated. But at a school where hulking jocks did demonstrably enjoy many privileges denied to the rest of the student body - not the least of which was the right to torment others without fear of punishment - Eric was a short, scrawny, geeky boy with a shrunken chest. His older brother was the perfect son - athletic enough to make the varsity football team but smart enough to make the honor roll. Even most of Eric's friends - fellow computer nerds - were well over six feet; they literally towered over him. Dylan, an ugly (sorry, fangirls) ogre of a boy who seldom bathed, had a girl friend (not a girlfriend, per se) who begged him to take her to the prom; Eric, a decent-looking guy who kept himself well-scrubbed, begged six girls for prom dates and was turned down by each and every one of them. Every minute of every day, he was subjected to reminders of his failure to measure up.

I maintain that Eric's body language at the beginning of this clip is revealing:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When Eric sees the larger boys approaching, around the 0:15 mark, he stops talking and tenses up. (The other boy seems them first, and stops talking - he stares straight ahead, not taking his eyes off of them.) He stands as erect as he can, steeling himself for a confrontation. But as he nears them, he lowers his head and cowers like a dog. (Some claim that he is "ramming" through the wall of jocks in a macho manner, but I disagree.)

Also note that the jock on the right side of the screen is flipping off the camera. It's hard to see, due to the pixelation, but if you look closely you can tell that his middle finger is extended. So the mutual dislike and contempt between the "popular" crowd and the "outcasts" was very real.

Later, in the cafeteria, Eric was humiliated in front of some other boys when a girl who had promised to meet him instead walked out of the room without saying a word:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Around 11:24, he slouches and lowers his head until his chin is resting in his hands. His body language indicates that he is giving up, accepting defeat. He has already lost - that girl has already walked up the stairs and out of his life, at least for the moment - so there's no point in puffing himself up any longer.

Examine Eric's facial expression around the 11:40 mark. Is that the face of a swaggering ladies' man at the top of his Game, or that of a dorky boy who is beating himself up over his pathetic inability to prevent yet another cruel rejection? (Or neither?)

I could (and probably will) go on.

@LPorter.
Excellent response. Well written and thought out.

Thanks.

It still hasn't shown up on the site, so I'm going to edit it and submit it again.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:18 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
People, you don't need a peer reviewed scientific article to see that Eric's behavior showed that he was deficient in the areas of empathy/remorse.

Selectively. He did show remorse to his family and friends in the final basement tape. One could argue that his (though selective) lack of remorse was because he was a psychopath, but then one could say it came from nothing more than a built up hatred towards most people. It is not conclusive proof of anything.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Great post. I agree.
I used to pretty much say and think many of the same things as Eric did and I do not believe that I was ever a psychopath.
Sometimes peoples life experiences alone can bring them to that kind of hatred and anger.

If you believe that social forces are the cause of his behavior, then the word you are looking for is sociopath.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The hate Cullen gets on here is ridiculous sometimes.

I know right? Really boring and some of the posters namely the one up there who everyone knows just go on and on about it. Part of the reason this forum is pretty much dead now and a lot of good posters left.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:33 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The hate Cullen gets on here is ridiculous sometimes.

I know right? Really boring and some of the posters namely the one up there who everyone knows just go on and on about it. Part of the reason this forum is pretty much dead now and a lot of good posters left.

Fortunately, you're here to take the place of all those good posters.

I don't apologize for going after Cullen. He's spread far more untruth than truth. He has the right to spread his bullshit and I have the right to call him on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Here is my comment:

You are indeed correct that Dave Cullen's book is full of inaccurate and misleading information. Unfortunately, you take the ball and run with it in the wrong direction, focusing on the tired issue of antidepressants.

The main problem with Mr. Cullen's book is that his characterization of Eric Harris as a swaggering, confident ladies' man and Dylan Klebold as his cowering emo lapdog is so thoroughly at variance with the established, known facts of the two boys' lives that one wonders how a reasonably intelligent (and honest) person who spent ten years looking at the available evidence could have come to such a conclusion.

I could write a book debunking Cullenbine, but for now I'll make these points:

As evidence of Harris' popularity and promiscuity, Cullen cites the testimony of a now-discredited "Columbine fangirl" (or groupie, if you will) named Brenda Parker. (She claimed to have been Eric's lover, but later admitted to the police that she had made the whole thing up.) Cullen has steadfastly refused to acknowledge or correct this error.

It is clear that Eric harbored deep, deep resentment over his lack of success with girls and his low social standing.

He wrote:
* Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off. then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me... constantly... therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED. as of this date I have enough explosives to kill about 100 people, and then if I get a couple bayonetts, swords, axes, whatever I'll be able to kill at least 10 more. and that just isnt enough! GUNS! I need guns! Give me some fucking firearms!
* Whatever I do people make fun of me, and sometimes directly to my face. I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much huh! HA!

Those are brief excerpts from his journal. In the past, in response to various things that I have written, Cullen has claimed that I "cherry-pick" entries to make Eric seem as if he had lower self-esteem than he did. Cullen believes that Eric's numerous expressions of contempt for "all the fat ugly retarded crippled dumbass stupid fuckheads in the world" indicate that he regarded himself as a truly-superior being. I don't buy that. He hated everyone and everything, but first and foremost he loathed himself.

This is the last thing that he wrote: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo."

As Westword reporter Alan Prendergast put it, "That is how the journal ends - not with the howl of the wolf-god, but the whine of the pathetic geek who can't land a prom date. And decides everybody deserves to die."

(In an article published in August 1999, Prendergast - an underrated figure in Columbine journalism - debunked most of the myths that Cullen claimed to have debunked in his book.)

Eric's writings are supremely angry - there are parts where his rage boils over into descriptions of brutal cannibalistic sex fantasies. (But some of Dylan's writings are so disjointed and bizarre that I am inclined to agree with Peter Langman's view that he was possibly borderline schizophrenic.)

Here are some quotes from newspaper articles on the basement tapes, written by reporters who (unlike Cullen) actually got to see them when they were screened for the first (and only) time by Jeffco in December 1999:

* But Harris shows some anger toward his father, Wayne, a military man who moved his family across the country several times. Harris talks of always being the new, "white, scrawny" kid. "I had to go through all that shit so many times," Harris says.
* "Only four or five people here didn't rip on me - four or five out of the whole state of Colorado!'' Eric Harris moaned to his pal. If he were just able to get in small fistfights, like he used to, Harris says. Now, he'd get suspended, his parents sued. Now, he says, pointing his shotgun "Arlene'' at the screen, he has no choice.
* "You know who you are. Thanks. You made me feel good. Think about that for a while, f---ing bitches." - Harris, after listing five girls "who never even called me back."

Eric constantly felt slighted. This might be evidence of his psychopathy, and/or it might be evidence that he was extremely sensitive to his very real inability to live up to the masculine ideal that some of his fellow students (and his own brother) embodied. He was a little geeky guy.

(Next to Klebold, who Cullen would have us believe trembled at the prospect of Eric's wrath, he looks like a midget. Klebold's body language in the clips of the two boys together is always confident - he stands up to his full 6'3"/6'4"-ish height.)

Here is a quote from a Denver Post article (1999-12-14):

"Contrary to popular opinion in the Columbine community, Harris comes off in the videos as the more sympathetic character of the two. Portrayed in the days after the attack as angry and weird, he is apologetic and somewhat remorseful in the tapes. He's careful to absolve his parents of any blame and shows sympathy to his mother, Kathy, for what he is about to do, trying not to 'bond' with her because he will soon die.

"'It's not their fault. They had no f---ing clue,' Harris says. 'It would not solve anything to arrest them.'"

Was Eric acting, enjoying putting on a show? Cullen would claim that he was. But he can't explain away the fact that Klebold came across as a bloodthirsty monster:

"Klebold is monstrous on the videotapes, openly raging about his lifelong hidden anger and all the slights he suffered at the hands of students, teachers and his family. He smiles ghoulishly into the camera, lovingly handles weapons and constantly combs his fingers through his shoulder-length red hair. He shows no contrition, only deadly aggression.

'This goes to all my family: I'm sorry I have so much rage,' Klebold says. 'You made me what I am. Actually, you just added to what I am.'"

And a Rocky Mountain News article (1999-12-13):

"Then Harris says, 'Let's talk about our parents for a minute.'

"Klebold begins coldly. 'It's my life,' he says. 'They gave it to me, I can do with it what I want. . . . If they don't like it, I'm sorry, but that's too bad.'

"Harris is gentler. 'They might have made some mistakes that they weren't really aware of in their life with me, but they couldn't have helped it.'

"Both boys say again and again that their parents are great.

"The Klebolds saw this tape last fall. They cried. The Harris parents know the tape exists but haven't seen it.

"'It s--- to do this to them,' Harris says. 'They're going to go through hell once we're finished. They're never going to see the end of it.'

"Klebold promises his parents there was nothing they could have done to stop what will happen.

"'You can't understand what we feel; you can't understand no matter how much you think you can,' he says.

"Harris plays with a pair of scissors, rapidly snapping the blades together and apart, together and apart. They laugh at the noise.

"He explains why he didn't spend more time with his family.

"'I didn't want to do any more bonding with them. It will be a lot easier on them if I haven't been around as much.'"

Would a psychopath with no regard for others bother to make such remarks? Again, Cullen would say that Eric is acting for the camera. (Why a guy who wanted to come across as a badass muthafucka would try to spoil that image by talking about his mother is beyond me.)

On another tape, Eric did start to cry while reminiscing about old friends. Cullen (who hasn't seen the tape) claims that it was an act. Unlike him, I'll reserve judgment until I see it for myself.

The bullying angle might be somewhat exaggerated. But at a school where hulking jocks did demonstrably enjoy many privileges denied to the rest of the student body - not the least of which was the right to torment others without fear of punishment - Eric was a short, scrawny, geeky boy with a shrunken chest. His older brother was the perfect son - athletic enough to make the varsity football team but smart enough to make the honor roll. Even most of Eric's friends - fellow computer nerds - were well over six feet; they literally towered over him. Dylan, an ugly (sorry, fangirls) ogre of a boy who seldom bathed, had a girl friend (not a girlfriend, per se) who begged him to take her to the prom; Eric, a decent-looking guy who kept himself well-scrubbed, begged six girls for prom dates and was turned down by each and every one of them. Every minute of every day, he was subjected to reminders of his failure to measure up.

I maintain that Eric's body language at the beginning of this clip is revealing:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When Eric sees the larger boys approaching, around the 0:15 mark, he stops talking and tenses up. (The other boy seems them first, and stops talking - he stares straight ahead, not taking his eyes off of them.) He stands as erect as he can, steeling himself for a confrontation. But as he nears them, he lowers his head and cowers like a dog. (Some claim that he is "ramming" through the wall of jocks in a macho manner, but I disagree.)

Also note that the jock on the right side of the screen is flipping off the camera. It's hard to see, due to the pixelation, but if you look closely you can tell that his middle finger is extended. So the mutual dislike and contempt between the "popular" crowd and the "outcasts" was very real.

Later, in the cafeteria, Eric was humiliated in front of some other boys when a girl who had promised to meet him instead walked out of the room without saying a word:
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Around 11:24, he slouches and lowers his head until his chin is resting in his hands. His body language indicates that he is giving up, accepting defeat. He has already lost - that girl has already walked up the stairs and out of his life, at least for the moment - so there's no point in puffing himself up any longer.

Examine Eric's facial expression around the 11:40 mark. Is that the face of a swaggering ladies' man at the top of his Game, or that of a dorky boy who is beating himself up over his pathetic inability to prevent yet another cruel rejection? (Or neither?)

I could (and probably will) go on.
This is a really good, well thought out post. And you make a lot of really good points. I agree with everything you said about the boys (Eric in particular). I also feel like it was originally Dylan's idea, not Eric's. Dylan was just lazy with the preparing and planning of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:54 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
People, you don't need a peer reviewed scientific article to see that Eric's behavior showed that he was deficient in the areas of empathy/remorse.

Selectively. He did show remorse to his family and friends in the final basement tape. One could argue that his (though selective) lack of remorse was because he was a psychopath, but then one could say it came from nothing more than a built up hatred towards most people. It is not conclusive proof of anything.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Great post. I agree.
I used to pretty much say and think many of the same things as Eric did and I do not believe that I was ever a psychopath.
Sometimes peoples life experiences alone can bring them to that kind of hatred and anger.

If you believe that social forces are the cause of his behavior, then the word  you are looking for is sociopath.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
No, I don't believe it is.As I've spoken of before here, in my life, I came close to going down the same path Eric did as a teen and I can't agree that I was a sociopath either.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:59 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The hate Cullen gets on here is ridiculous sometimes.

I know right? Really boring and some of the posters namely the one up there who everyone knows just go on and on about it. Part of the reason this forum is pretty much dead now and a lot of good posters left.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Um, not all of us here think the Cullen criticism is boring. From what I've observed, more are interested in it than not. Lporter has been the most effective and dedicated Cullen critic that I know of and I feel that the anti Cullenities owe him a great debt in that regard.
I'm also not aware of anyone who has left especially for this reason.
These tragic events took place 17 years ago now and longer and there isn't always fresh and exciting new material to talk about.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:12 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The hate Cullen gets on here is ridiculous sometimes.

I know right? Really boring and some of the posters namely the one up there who everyone knows just go on and on about it. Part of the reason this forum is pretty much dead now and a lot of good posters left.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Um, not all of us here think the Cullen criticism is boring. From what I've observed, more are interested in it than not. Lporter has been the most effective and dedicated Cullen critic that I know of and I feel that the anti Cullenities owe him a great debt in that regard.
I'm also not aware of anyone who has left especially for this reason.
These tragic events took place 17 years ago now and longer and there isn't always fresh and exciting new material to talk about.
We have not 'lost' any members due to Cullen debates. I have never even gotten a complaint about the Cullen debates. And believe me, people have no problems complaining about what's going on at this forum.

Members come and go. They lose interest and go. They may come back months or years later if the interest is sparked again. It happens all of the time. However the Top Contributor's list is pretty consistent. You will find the best of the best posters on that list and they've all been here for a very long time. In the entire time only about 4 people on the list have lost interest and dropped off the list.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:12 pm

Thanks for the moral support, PaintItBlack and Jenn. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:08 am

I just believe Dylan is the more fascinating of the two because he's much more complex, he's harder to peg. Eric Harris was the easy one, at least to me. I don't need an expert or anybody else telling me he was a psycho because I did time with plenty of them, I know how they act. They see the world different, everybody and everything comes 2nd to their needs and wants. God forbid they don't get what they want, hell freezes over. You can't take what Eric wrote word for word because it doesn't work like that with those people. Dylan is far more fascinating to me. Much harder to figure out.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:26 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[Dylan is m]uch harder to figure out.

I agree with you on this.

I see Eric as a weak little guy who wanted to be a big strong badass muthafucka. He hated living in a world where he couldn't be on top. The girls who rejected him, the jocks who bullied him, the kids who just plain ignored him - in his mind, they all melded together into one contemptible mass of (in-)humanity.

The school was the arena where he was humiliated day in and day out. It was the stage upon which the drama of his miserable social life (or relative lack thereof) unfolded. That's why he wanted to destroy it.

"You think I'm small? You think I'm weak? I'll show you how big and strong I am! Get a load of this, fuckers!"

I've known kids like Eric - little guys who get shoved around all the time. Some of them become bodybuilders; others become billionaires. Some of them come to terms with their limitations and focus on doing the things that they can do in life. Some of them stay losers forever.

I don't "get" Dylan nearly as well. Never have, and likely never will.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:38 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The hate Cullen gets on here is ridiculous sometimes.

I know right? Really boring and some of the posters namely the one up there who everyone knows just go on and on about it. Part of the reason this forum is pretty much dead now and a lot of good posters left.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Um, not all of us here think the Cullen criticism is boring. From what I've observed, more are interested in it than not. Lporter has been the most effective and dedicated Cullen critic that I know of and I feel that the anti Cullenities owe him a great debt in that regard.
I'm also not aware of anyone who has left especially for this reason.
These tragic events took place 17 years ago now and longer and there isn't always fresh and exciting new material to talk about.

If they can't take it, let them leave. If they don't understand why people on this forum won't sit back and let Cullen bullshit to a nation, then that's their problem.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:41 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
People, you don't need a peer reviewed scientific article to see that Eric's behavior showed that he was deficient in the areas of empathy/remorse.

Selectively. He did show remorse to his family and friends in the final basement tape. One could argue that his (though selective) lack of remorse was because he was a psychopath, but then one could say it came from nothing more than a built up hatred towards most people. It is not conclusive proof of anything.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Great post. I agree.
I used to pretty much say and think many of the same things as Eric did and I do not believe that I was ever a psychopath.
Sometimes peoples life experiences alone can bring them to that kind of hatred and anger.

If you believe that social forces are the cause of his behavior, then the word  you are looking for is sociopath.

Anger and hatred does not equate to sociopathy, don't be so quick to label.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:12 am

That response was to PaintItBlack.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:17 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
That response was to PaintItBlack.

Didn't realise, all I saw was my name at the start.

My point remains relevant either way.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:34 pm

Not sure if it's worthy of it's own thread, but Cullen had a Vanity Fair post about the interview. Of course we had to get the "Dylan was a meek follower, Eric psychotic mastermind!" thrown in there.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:49 pm

Sometimes I wonder if this prick Cullen is provoking the Harrises to get them to speak up or call him or something...
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if this prick Cullen is provoking the Harrises to get them to speak up or call him or something...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
No, I think he knows the Harrises' won't ever speak to him.
It's just his endless policy of self promotion.He is trying to constantly spread his falsehood further because that means more book sales and more paid work.


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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:50 pm


Dave replied back to my email about his misprint in Vanity Fair :


Thank you VERY much.

I went back to the DVR and you're right. I'm very sorry, and we're correcting it now.

d

Dave Cullen
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:45 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Dave replied back to my email about his misprint in Vanity Fair :


Thank you VERY much.

I went back to the DVR and you're right. I'm very sorry, and we're correcting it now.

d

Dave Cullen  
Writer

Wow, Dave, you did the right thing for once. Good for you.

Ask him if he'll correct his mistake about Brenda Parker. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:50 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
People, you don't need a peer reviewed scientific article to see that Eric's behavior showed that he was deficient in the areas of empathy/remorse.

Selectively. He did show remorse to his family and friends in the final basement tape. One could argue that his (though selective) lack of remorse was because he was a psychopath, but then one could say it came from nothing more than a built up hatred towards most people. It is not conclusive proof of anything.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Great post. I agree.
I used to pretty much say and think many of the same things as Eric did and I do not believe that I was ever a psychopath.
Sometimes peoples life experiences alone can bring them to that kind of hatred and anger.

If you believe that social forces are the cause of his behavior, then the word  you are looking for is sociopath.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
No, I don't believe it is.As I've spoken of before here, in my life, I came close to going down the same path Eric did  as a teen and I can't agree that I was a sociopath either.

It could be that not going down that path was due to the fact that you aren't a sociopath.

A lot of people consider or think about what E&D did. Life can be cruel, people can be cruel & it's human to get fed up with catching the BS sometimes & "dream" of revenge. What stops 99.9% of us from going "NBK" is our sense of humanity.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:01 pm

Actually, Father of Two, I don't think thats it.
Today,I had a conversation with my close and old friend, the very same one that had wanted to do the massacre with all those years ago,and we were talking about the show last night and what was said about Eric.Then we started talking about why he and then Dylan went through with it and we did not and we concluded that it was more a matter of circumstances than any inner, moral awakening .
We were certainly rageful and full of enough bitterness and hate to do it.
Finally, after hashing it out we came to the conclusion that besides not being able to drive at that time and all the practical concerns the biggest reason we did not was that we were afraid to die and afraid of being punished forever in the afterlife and Eric and Dylan didn't have those fears.

I know that doesn't make either her or I look good, but what can I say?
That's how we were and what was going on in our lives at that time.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The hate Cullen gets on here is ridiculous sometimes.

I know right? Really boring and some of the posters namely the one up there who everyone knows just go on and on about it. Part of the reason this forum is pretty much dead now and a lot of good posters left.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Um, not all of us here think the Cullen criticism is boring. From what I've observed, more are interested in it than not. Lporter has been the most effective and dedicated Cullen critic that I know of and I feel that the anti Cullenities owe him a great debt in that regard.
I'm also not aware of anyone who has left especially for this reason.
These tragic events took place 17 years ago now and longer and there isn't always fresh and exciting new material to talk about.
We have not 'lost' any members due to Cullen debates. I have never even gotten a complaint about the Cullen debates. And believe me, people have no problems complaining about what's going on at this forum.

Members come and go. They lose interest and go. They may come back months or years later if the interest is sparked again. It happens all of the time. However the Top Contributor's list is pretty consistent. You will find the best of the best posters on that list and they've all been here for a very long time. In the entire time only about 4 people on the list have lost interest and dropped off the list.

99% of us were not involved in 4/20/99, yet hold a special interest & passion for the events & parties involved. We all vary to some degree as to why this peaks our interest, but in the end we share the common bond of being followers of a benchmark event in our lifetimes.

I think its extremely reasonable, justified & possibly required that we are committed to truthful & honest representation of the events leading up to, including & following 4/20/99. Revisionist history has already ruined 1,000's of historical events & God knows the media can pursued opinions @ their whim.. as if their is no greater example than CHS itself.

Cullen seized an opportunity to exercise his professional skills & cast his hand into the entrepreneurial game.. I respect that, but when someone as influential as he has become on the matter blatantly twists or ignores truths, it's fair game if not a responsibility to call it out & without reasonable limits.

Let the truth be known & most importantly... Never Forget.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:17 pm

Cullen fixed his mistake:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

One of Sue's more jarring revelations was that Dylan asked her to buy him a gun. She scoffed and declined, and said she did not permit guns in her house.

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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:37 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Actually, Father of Two, I don't think thats it.
Today,I had a conversation with my close and old friend, the very same one that had wanted to do the massacre with all those years ago,and we were talking about the show last night and what was said about Eric.Then we started talking about why he and then Dylan went through with it and we did not and we concluded that it was more a matter of circumstances than any inner, moral awakening .
We were certainly rageful and full of enough bitterness and hate to do it.
Finally, after hashing it out we came to the conclusion that besides not being able to drive at that time and all the practical concerns the biggest reason we did not was that we were afraid to die and afraid of being punished forever in the afterlife and Eric and Dylan didn't have those fears.

I know that doesn't make either her or I look good, but what can I say?
That's how we were and what was going on in our lives at that time.

Thankfully both of you are still with us today.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Cullen fixed his mistake:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

One of Sue's more jarring revelations was that Dylan asked her to buy him a gun. She scoffed and declined, and said she did not permit guns in her house.

discussed this with my son today, he's a 17 yr old Sr in HS/likely the same period when Dylan made the request for a gun.


I wish Sue had gone into more detail.. I have to imagine it triggered some concerns & questions into "why" & "what for". Maybe it was edited, but Diane Sawyer certainly should have jumped on that.. if anyone wants to point out a moment where the parents should have recognized a serious issue, that was it (as well as the essay Dylan wrote, but to a lesser degree.. sounds like the teacher didn't do a very good job of explaining just how warped the essay topic really was*).

*I don't blame the parents, I could just as easily been in their shoes.. having said that, if I were the Harris' I would have searched Eric's room, car & everywhere else on a regular basis after they found the pipe bomb. If I were the Klebolds, I'm getting a copy of that essay asap.. & not relying on the verdict of the counselor. Admittedly, this is in hindsight & from afar.
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:40 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Actually, Father of Two, I don't think thats it.
Today,I had a conversation with my close and old friend, the very same one that had wanted to do the massacre with all those years ago,and we were talking about the show last night and what was said about Eric.Then we started talking about why he and then Dylan went through with it and we did not and we concluded that it was more a matter of circumstances than any inner, moral awakening .
We were certainly rageful and full of enough bitterness and hate to do it.
Finally, after hashing it out we came to the conclusion that besides not being able to drive at that time and all the practical concerns the biggest reason we did not was that we were afraid to die and afraid of being punished forever in the afterlife and Eric and Dylan didn't have those fears.

I know that doesn't make either her or I look good, but what can I say?
That's how we were and what was going on in our lives at that time.

Thankfully both of you are still with us today.

Thank you,Father of Two:)
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PostSubject: Re: Dave Cullen 's latest strike   Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:45 am

Is it possible that Dylan asked Sue for the gun before the NBK plot, or at least before it started being seriously planned?
Maybe he asked for it because he wanted to only kill himself at that point and not others?
He did write something like that once in his journal-"I'm going to get so and so to buy me a gun and use it on a poor son I know named Vodka."

Its odd that he asked his Mom for one though.It seems like he would have tried to steal one first ,or maybe he didn't and his attempt failed?
I think he must have given his Mom some legitimate sounding reason as to why he wanted one  and that part was edited out which is very unfair because Sue should have been allowed to fully explain herself.
I just can't believe that he would ask and she would just say no and that would be the end of it.
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