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 A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses

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queenfarooq



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PostSubject: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:40 pm

*THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK*

I noticed there are a couple of threads popping up containing bits and pieces of Sue's book. I received my hard copy today from Amazon and have just stated reading it.
I thought it may be interesting to have somewhere to post our responses to the new or interesting information that we come across in the book. Or similarly any related thoughts and feelings regarding things that may stand out for us.

At the moment personally I'm only up to pg(18) Chapter 2. I found Sue's detailed description regarding how she and the family responded inside their home to the news about Columbine and about how Dylan may be involved very interesting. I couldn't help but wonder what was going on in the Harris household at this time.

I did almost get the impression that after hearing Sue's side of things, the visit of Judy Brown to the Klebold home on 4/20 felt like it was quite unexpected and a little inappropriate:

Quote :
Alerted by the Littleton rumour mill that Dylan was involved in the events at the school, she had come to our house. I was startled to see her

Quote :
I was too distracted to question why she was there, but it did seem odd for her to have materialized during this most private of times.
pg(12)
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:58 pm

Yeah, it's a good idea to have them all in one thread.

So Dylan tried out for the Columbine baseball team, but didn't make it.

He was a failed jock.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:42 pm

This book would have made Dylan cry I'm sure, very sentimental.

I feel bad for Eric, that he doesn't have someone to talk about him like this.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:50 pm

I was surprised to read that he gave Devon a kiss on the head at Prom.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:39 pm

I'm on the chapter where she talks about seeing the Basement Tapes.

She says Eric was encouraging Dylan to be angry, and that he was grasping at straws...argh. Maybe Eric was encouraging Dylan's anger because Eric was trying to help him feel better? It doesn't have to be a manipulative thing, I think Eric looked at Dylan and saw that he had a lot of repressed anger that was eating him from the inside, and he didn't want his best friend to hate himself or feel bad. Dylan internalized a lot and had trouble putting his feelings into words--of course his explanation is going to be clumsy and seem trivial. But it doesn't really. He felt picked-on by everyone, as far back as daycare. That's not as easy to let go of as it sounds, not when it's a constant pattern over the years of one's life.

I keep thinking, as she's describing the reactions of the locals--now do you see what these people are like? Insular, judgmental, vindictive, evangelical, intolerant, superstitious mental midgets going after her for something she didn't do and had no frame of reference for. For all of the people who were kind and sympathetic to her, there were as many who went after her with lawsuits, threats and aspersions. These are the people Dylan was surrounded by. It couldn't have been good for his depressive tendencies. I've talked to some people who have lived in the Denver suburbs and for the most part they paint the same picture of what the majority of people are like there.

We have the guidelines for school shooting reportage spelled out now. Now we know exactly what the press is lying to us about so we can fill in our own blanks. Media literacy! I guess it's part of my punk rock tendencies, this impulse to loudly shout the thing nobody else wants to say, but I think this hidey-sneaky PCism is as bad as sensationalism because it's still lying. When you're exaggerating the truth at least there's the kernel of the whole truth under the exaggeration. When you're hush-hushing for the supposed greater good of the public, you're not presenting all the information.

(Future terrorists take note--take control of your own publicity because the corporate media is onto you and not your sock puppet anymore. Onion sites, guerrilla distribution, video editing software, file sharing, hidden blogs...take a few cues from ISIS and what they did right. Just don't get busted in the interim--cover your incriminating details until it's Judgment Day, and use a proxy, every time.)
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:12 pm

I'm skipping around. (I never read a book from cover to cover, at least not at the beginning. But I do end up reading the whole thing.)

She keeps stressing the fact that Dylan let four people live.

Eric let people live, too, didn't he? He didn't shoot Bree Pasquale.

(Yes, he had broken his nose, so he wasn't in the best of shape.)

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:26 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm skipping around. (I never read a book from cover to cover, at least not at the beginning. But I do end up reading the whole thing.)

She keeps stressing the fact that Dylan let four people live.

Eric let people live, too, didn't he? He didn't shoot Bree Pasquale.

(Yes, he had broken his nose, so he wasn't in the best of shape.)

John Savage and who else?

Don't forget Eric also let Brooks go
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:29 pm

Has anyone read the Acknowledgements yet? There's one in there that makes me want to pull my hair out.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:33 pm

*goes to acknowledgements now...* *surprised by the index....*

Oh nooooooo. I can almost imagine him being more than happy to help.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
*goes to acknowledgements now...* *surprised by the index....*

Oh nooooooo. I can almost  imagine him being more than happy to help.


I can't say I'm shocked. She keeps quoting Langman as saying things like "Columbine wouldn't have happened without Eric."

And how about that introduction?

"Eric was a failed Hitler; Dylan was a failed Holden Caulfield."


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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:42 pm

Another tidbit from the Acknowledgements:

She thanks Nate Dykeman, but not Brooks Brown.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
*goes to acknowledgements now...* *surprised by the index....*

Oh nooooooo. I can almost  imagine him being more than happy to help.


I can't say I'm shocked. She keeps quoting Langman as saying things like "Columbine wouldn't have happened without Eric."

And how about that introduction?

"Eric was a failed Hitler; Dylan was a failed Holden Caulfield."


Yeah I saw those too.
That's one of the things that's slightly disappointed me. It at least sounded like she was not going to go down this road in the Diane Sawyer interview, and she hasn't gone as far down the road as our good friend Dave. But it's not surprising that this would be a deep rooted belief that she will always hold and I can't really blame her in many ways. I admire her honesty so far with her book and she has said things which do not paint her in the best light as she mentioned she would. Although she seems too empathic to outright slaughter Eric in her book, I find myself wondering how much she may like to.
I'm only about 40 pages into her book, but from what I understand there will be some more subtle and not so subtle "Eric blame" coming up.
The unfortunate truth is that we will never know what went on behind closed doors between Eric and Dylan.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:48 pm

But she has done us a great service, in one respect. She has confirmed for us that Eric was, indeed, bullied:
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:58 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Another tidbit from the Acknowledgements:

She thanks Nate Dykeman, but not Brooks Brown.

Oh you mean she didn't thank Judy for showing up at her home on the day of the shooting? I think I need to let go of this as despite Judy's reasons I do feel this was a slightly inappropriate move. Again it probably wasn't but it all just feels a little too nosey to me.
I came across the section when Sue details the bomb squad arriving on pg(19) and describes herself, Tom, Byron, Allison (who lived in the studio outbuilding) AND Judy sheltering from the rain outside her home. Sounds like Judy stayed quite a while.
This is just all my instant reaction to this scenario, maybe I'll feel differently once I've reflected on it.

To go back to the Cullen reference. I'm just processing the idea Sue would use him to "fact check" and to "help with accuracy."
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:12 pm

Any word of how involved Cullen was? I'm sure I read somewhere he had approximately 10 hours worth of phone calls with her?
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:47 pm

I've posted this in another thread, but I'm putting it here too.

I've read her book and watched most of the interviews. I do believe she's genuine but to be honest, there's something off about her. Multiple times in the book and in the interviews she repeats the same flowery clichés and metaphors when describing her feelings. It is a bit too much at times. It's like she's quoting piece of literature, and could be mistaken as disingenuous or detached.

Something which struck me was one of the survivors posted on Facebook that Wayne and Kathy's letter so cold and emotionally stunted, while the Klebold's was personally and heartfelt whilst other's were angry that Sue wrote to them. Now, I'm not one to talk because I have not suffered such a tragedy, but I could almost see why victims and survivors are not happy, because her rhetoric is to poetic and fluffy to come across as insincere in my eyes.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:00 pm


I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:28 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Dylan didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?


Last edited by PaintItBlack on Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:36 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:21 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:37 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:58 pm

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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:59 am

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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.

Yeah, I get the impression Judy Brown is an arrogant "window twitcher", a nose neighbour who revels in other people's short comings.
Sorry, but I just find her smarmy.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:39 pm

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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.


There was a friend of Brooks in the car at the time but they have never come forward to give their own account of what happened.

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We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:44 pm

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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.

Yeah, I get the impression Judy Brown is an arrogant "window twitcher", a nose neighbour who revels in other people's short comings.
Sorry, but I just find her smarmy.


The Klebolds and Browns were close when their boys were young, then reconnected after the shootings and were close again for a few years but they fell out and Judy said that she was ashamed she ever called Sue her friend.
You can read about it below

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We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski


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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:42 am

Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:31 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN: We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered. We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system. These are not angry, out of control parents. They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it. They refused to sit with them. They refused to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:06 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN:  We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered.  We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system.  These are not angry, out of control parents.  They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it.  They refused to sit with them.  They refused to do it.

Good riddance to the Browns then. They have no right whatsoever to tell the Klebold family what they need to do.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:33 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN:  We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered.  We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system.  These are not angry, out of control parents.  They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it.  They refused to sit with them.  They refused to do it.

Good riddance to the Browns then. They have no right whatsoever to tell the Klebold family what they need to do.

I am on the fence usually with the Browns. This article made me so mad. Very very mad at them lol. This was from 2004 so things could have changed but really I don't think so. They just go on and on about how it is the Klebold and Harris family's fault. They don't want a sorry from them. They want EVERYTHING they know. The have no idea what they want but they want it.

Look I understand their sons were at the school on the 20, Brooks had been threatened by Eric, and he was friends with Dylan for a very long time but come on. Your sons were not killed or injured. Yes emotional scars hurt too but I think they just push too far. I feel a bit bad for Brooks in a way. I wonder if he can ever have a normal conversation with his parents? They changed his room to an evidence room and it seems they are obsessed. Anyway...this is way OT. Sorry !!
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