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 highlights of the 11k

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ShadowedGoddess
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:42 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
On page 12254, it states that there was "a bloodstained shirt and emergency medical supplies" under Table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Maybe it's from that? Lisa Kreutz did say that a paramedic came in when she was found by SWAT, so maybe it's from them?


That is a possibility. It may have been dropped/left by SWAT or one of the paramedics. It might have been something that SWAT was using as they were checking the bodies for explosives etc.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

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My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
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I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
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Littlelo

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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:08 am

It's just weird that they would enter it into evidence if it was from a first responder. I didn't think that was commonplace. But that's what I'm leaning towards, too.
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ShadowedGoddess
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It's just weird that they would enter it into evidence if it was from a first responder. I didn't think that was commonplace. But that's what I'm leaning towards, too.


There were only a select few that the tool could have belonged to. Either it was a victims, E&D's, or one of the first responders. Possibly even from a janitor. Who knows, it could have been dropped by anyone that was coming in or out that day.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

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My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
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I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:23 am

Just something else interesting I noticed. The two paramedics who treated Lisa Kreutz: Troy Laman (8509) and Robert Montoya (The Denver Post). Montoya's statement doesn't say anything past 11:30 (9491-9492), and Laman's statement isn't even there. Anyone know why this is?
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:52 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Just something else interesting I noticed. The two paramedics who treated Lisa Kreutz: Troy Laman (8509) and Robert Montoya (The Denver Post). Montoya's statement doesn't say anything past 11:30 (9491-9492), and Laman's statement isn't even there. Anyone know why this is?


That is kind of strange. scratch BUT you have to remember this is Jeffco we are dealing with. They don't have the best track record of keeping up with reports! Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

That is kind of strange. scratch BUT you have to remember this is Jeffco we are dealing with. They don't have the best track record of keeping up with reports! Haha
Haha Very true
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:07 pm

One thing that bothers me is about Kelly Fleming. I've always assumed that Kelly Fleming was next to table number 2 when the shooting took place in the library. I remember reading that in several sources (which I can't now find, isn't that always the way?). But upon reading the statements of Lisa Kreutz and Valeen Schnurr, I just don't see how that could be.

For one thing neither Kreutz or Schnurr mention a girl sitting next to the table during the shooting. Kreutz mentions a blonde girl crawling up to the table and laying her head down by her at some point, but describes this as happening after everyone had left the library.

If Kelly Fleming had in fact been sitting next to the table, wouldn't somebody have mentioned it at some point? Also, if Fleming was shot dead right next to the table, wouldn't somebody have mentioned that? Valeen Schnurr describes moving out from under the table to leave the library and states that she moved out from under it on the east side. If you look at the diagrams of the library where you can see the positioning of the bodies, this would have been almost impossible without at least noticing Fleming, yet she doesn't mention her at all.

So then I thought, okay, so Fleming was shot at table number 4, where she had been sitting, and then crawled to table number 2 (perhaps in an effort to leave the library, and doesn't that just break your heart?). But there's problems with that theory as well. For one thing, the gunshot wound did so much damage to her internally AND fractured her left hip, how could she have crawled anywhere?

I just don't understand why no one mentioned her if she was next to table number 2 all along. And who could the girl Lisa Kreutz saw crawling to her table have been if it wasn't Kelly Fleming? Hair color discrepancy aside, was there anybody else in that area that didn't leave after the shooting?

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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:25 pm

I've also always been curious about this and somewhat frustrated as well. Kelly Fleming was originally sat at table 4 (Nicole Nowlen remembered seeing her sat there) but due to the position of her table she sought cover behind table 2, (the same reason Nowlen moved from her table and joined John Tomlin under his). I've mentioned before that one witness passing through the library could see in the reflection of the shattered mirror in the shot at display cabinet a body near table 1 with a wound in the back. She couldn't tell the sex, but this was most likely Kelly.

Another thing I've wondered is presuming the girls under table 2 moved the chairs in around them when they got under the table, whether Kelly simply hid on the outside of these chairs (which would've left her very exposed) or if she hid on the inside.

About Lisa Kreutz, I'm wondering whether or not she was simply delirious when she thought a girl came up to her. I can't remember where she was under table 2 again, but she would've had Lauren's body just north of her, and Kelly's to the east.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:41 pm

Here's a good question: If Kelly wanted cover, why would she go to the table with 5 people under it, rather than either of the adjacent tables with 2 people under it?

Also, Lisa Kreutz was initially on the right-hand side of the center of the table. She does say that she moves to between tables 1 and 2 in an effort to get out of the library. Did lose a lot of blood, and was pale when paramedics finally got to her, so that probably contributed to her odd report about the girl coming up to her.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:57 pm

Quote :
Here's a good question: If Kelly wanted cover, why would she go to the table with 5 people under it, rather than either of the adjacent tables with 2 people under it?

Another point I've wondered as well. It could be she simply initially felt safer to be by a table of older girls, than asking a boy (who she may not have known) if she could go under his table. It's perhaps likely as well she may not at first realised the seriousness of the situation until E&D had entered the library, and by that point I'm sure she probably realised how exposed she was, but where could she go?

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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:34 pm

Yeah, that makes sense. It could also explain the bruise on her right knee. Like you said: she likely didn't realize the magnitude of the situation, and rushed to the closest place of cover: table 2. She likely bruised her right knee in the panic
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:46 am

That is just so sad. If she was sitting next to the table while the five girls underneath it were all huddling together, she would have for all intents and purposes still been on her own.

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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:44 pm

I have NEVER noticed this before or heard of it. Does anyone have any more info? Evidence Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I believe recovered at Eric's house) is a wooden plaque with "R/NBK/V" on it.

[Pg. 11,557]

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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:49 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I have NEVER noticed this before or heard of it. Does anyone have any more info? Evidence Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I believe recovered at Eric's house) is a wooden plaque with "R/NBK/V" on it.

[Pg. 11,557]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

That’s new to me!!

They made a plaque and everything...

Interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:52 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I have NEVER noticed this before or heard of it. Does anyone have any more info? Evidence Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I believe recovered at Eric's house) is a wooden plaque with "R/NBK/V" on it.

[Pg. 11,557]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

That’s new to me!!

They made a plaque and everything...

Interesting.

Me too. But I would pay money to see it. Also to know when it was made and by who.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Know anything about this? scratch

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein


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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:58 pm

I just tried looking back at photos from the evidence exhibit in 2004 with no luck. It could be a small piece of wood or metal and they just called it a plaque, but the fact that one or both of them made something like that is so interesting...

Edit:
I checked and it was one of the items released back to Wayne after the investigation the following year. So it wouldn't have been at the exhibit.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I just tried looking back at photos from the evidence exhibit in 2004 with no luck. It could be a small piece of wood or metal and they just called it a plaque, but the fact that one or both of them made something like that is so interesting...

Edit:
I checked and it was one of the items released back to Wayne after the investigation the following year. So it wouldn't have been at the exhibit.

I wonder if Wayne would have wanted it...

I do wonder if Tom or Sue have Dylan’s trench coat in a closet or attic

It’s just a coat yes but it’s almost become an iconic or infamous piece of clothing.

Eric was into having symbols like a plaque. He carried around his berserker with him and he had it on 4/20.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:36 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I just tried looking back at photos from the evidence exhibit in 2004 with no luck. It could be a small piece of wood or metal and they just called it a plaque, but the fact that one or both of them made something like that is so interesting...

Edit:
I checked and it was one of the items released back to Wayne after the investigation the following year. So it wouldn't have been at the exhibit.

I wonder if Wayne would have wanted it...

I do wonder if Tom or Sue have Dylan’s trench coat in a closet or attic

It’s just a coat yes but it’s almost become an iconic or infamous piece of clothing.

Eric was into having symbols like a plaque. He carried around his berserker with him and he had it on 4/20.

All questions I reaaally want to know the answers to.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:37 pm

I wouldn't think he would have wanted it, and I highly doubt that the Harris's have it over the mantel piece. Shocked

But the fact that E&D had made a sort of a commemorative plaque/anything for NBK is just kinda twisted. Yet we all know that Eric lived for that type of shit.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:41 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I wouldn't think he would have wanted it, and I highly doubt that the Harris's have it over the mantel piece. Shocked

But the fact that E&D had made a sort of a commemorative plaque/anything for NBK is just kinda twisted. Yet we all know that Eric lived for that type of shit.

Sadly Eric got everything he wanted from the Marines through Dylan and NBK Sad

I’m sure we’ve talked about it before, how different it would have been if Eric got into the Marines.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:45 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I wouldn't think he would have wanted it, and I highly doubt that the Harris's have it over the mantel piece. Shocked

But the fact that E&D had made a sort of a commemorative plaque/anything for NBK is just kinda twisted. Yet we all know that Eric lived for that type of shit.

Sadly Eric got everything he wanted from the Marines through Dylan and NBK Sad

I’m sure we’ve talked  about it before, how different it would have been if Eric got into the  Marines.


Eric even said that maybe being a Marine would have given him a reason to be good(or somethings along those lines). It definitely would have given him an outlet to his aggression.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:47 pm

I've seen something somewhere about Dylan supposedly making his earring in a shop class in school. I wonder if it's the same place the plaque was made? I know that's a stretch.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:49 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I've seen something somewhere about Dylan supposedly making his earring in a shop class in school. I wonder if it's the same place the plaque was made? I know that's a stretch.

Nah not really. They could have made it in the school's shop class. That would have been something I can picture Eric laughing his ass over, making an NBK plaque at the very school they were going to attack..

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:24 am

I'm still making my very slow way through the 11k and I'm now reading Brian Anderson's first statement on 04/21/99 (I know, I got a long way to go). He makes no mention of seeing Ms. Nielson in the north main hallway nor does he at any time state she was with him when he was shot at and injured. He says the first time he saw her (not knowing her name) was in the library when she 'entered with them'. Nielson was very adamant that Brian Anderson was walking next to her when they were shot at and that she even spoke to him before that. How very strange that he completely ommits her being there.

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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:31 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm still making my very slow way through the 11k and I'm now reading Brian Anderson's first statement on 04/21/99 (I know, I got a long way to go). He makes no mention of seeing Ms. Nielson in the north main hallway nor does he at any time state she was with him when he was shot at and injured. He says the first time he saw her (not knowing her name) was in the library when she 'entered with them'. Nielson was very adamant that Brian Anderson was walking next to her when they were shot at and that she even spoke to him before that. How very strange that he completely ommits her being there.

Wow I must have read his testimony and I never picked up on that. But he must be misremembering, right? They both had injuries from when Eric shot through the door, and she mentions that at the beginning of the 911 call.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:33 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm still making my very slow way through the 11k and I'm now reading Brian Anderson's first statement on 04/21/99 (I know, I got a long way to go). He makes no mention of seeing Ms. Nielson in the north main hallway nor does he at any time state she was with him when he was shot at and injured. He says the first time he saw her (not knowing her name) was in the library when she 'entered with them'. Nielson was very adamant that Brian Anderson was walking next to her when they were shot at and that she even spoke to him before that. How very strange that he completely ommits her being there.


One thing to be aware of is that the witness statements are FULL of inconsistencies. Much of it was likely due to trauma, and the stressful situation. It really is hard to tell what those kids really saw or heard. Because their witness accounts are so jumbled up, with things out of order, timelines all off, things added in that they heard from others but didn't actually see for themselves etc. Its hard to make sense out of it sometimes.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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Screamingophelia
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:43 am

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I've seen something somewhere about Dylan supposedly making his earring in a shop class in school. I wonder if it's the same place the plaque was made? I know that's a stretch.

Nah not really. They could have made it in the school's shop class. That would have been something I can picture Eric laughing his ass over, making an NBK plaque at the very school they were going to attack..

I wonder if the Man in Black story was Dylan's way of having "fun" like Eric probably was...

Did Sue take jewelry making classes or was that speculation? I read somewhere that she may have made it for him. He could have had it custom made somewhere too.
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:43 pm

Hi. I'm hoping someone can please tell me exactly in this link where the library witnesses testimony starts? Thanks!
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SMBH_7

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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:56 pm

Hope this helps![You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: highlights of the 11k   Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:50 pm

Thank you so much Very Happy Very Happy
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highlights of the 11k
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