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 Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying

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LostHighway
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PostSubject: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:43 pm

An interesting compare and contrast of the McDonalds incident.

"There was one more odd incident on our way home, which at the time Tom and I chalked up to Dylan’s desire to get back to his friends. The three of us stopped at a packed McDonald’s in Pueblo for a quick bite. A large group of teenagers had taken over a couple of tables against the wall. We’d just unwrapped our sandwiches when Dylan leaned forward, hardly moving his lips, and said urgently, “We have to go. Those kids are laughing at me.” I looked over. The teenagers were hooting and hollering and having a great time, and none of them was paying the slightest bit of attention to us.
“Relax, Dyl. Nobody’s looking at you,” I said. Besides, if a person didn’t want to be noticed, why wear a floor-length leather coat? But Dylan grew more insistent, casting quick, paranoid glances over his shoulder at the oblivious kids. He was so uncomfortable that we bolted our burgers and hustled out of there; the teenagers didn’t even look up at us as we left. The rest of the ride home was uneventful.”

What is PTSD Hypervigilance?
One of the many hyper-arousal symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is hyper vigilance and this refers to the experience of being constantly tense and ‘on guard’- your brain is on high alert in order to be certain danger is not near.
This state of increased awareness, anxiety, and sensitivity to the environmental around you often manifests as a need to always scan your surroundings for potential threats. With the brain resources on constant alert, the results can be inappropriate or even aggressive reactions in everyday situations.
People displaying hypervigilance can be so involved in their scrutiny of whats around them, that they tend to ignore their family and friends. Often, they will overreact to loud sounds and bangs, unexpected noises, smells, etc. They can get really agitated and irritated, when they move into a crowded or noisy area as there is too much to scrutinise.
Even familiar surroundings and people can be an issue as hyper vigilance can make people acutely aware of subtle details normally ignored – body language, a persons voice and tone, their mood, their expressions – all things which are continually assessed.
Some of the common behaviours of hypervigilance are:
Lack of objectivity – reading too much into situations
An over awareness of what people see or think about us
Looking for others to betray constantly
Constantly concerned about others
Not being aware of what is obvious to others
Over scrutiny/analysing behaviour of situations
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:35 pm

this is relatable to me, I used to be like this, still am at times. It's more than obvious that Dylan had this issue. Vastly different from what most teens go through with insecurities, being self conscious and all that. Thing is I haven't asked myself this - did Eric have the same issue? Cause to me it seems like Eric thinks he's far more superior than the world hence with not being popular or accepted - he gets mad rather than, cowering at the corner thinking he's not good enough.

I know i'm not being very eloquent here.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:25 pm

Dylan was diagnosed with Avoidant personality disorder posthumously, which could also account for his paranoia, desire to suddenly leave, and feelings of inferiority.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:59 pm



Randy Brown talks about hypervigilance in this video
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:59 pm

I do know first hand that if you are bullied a lot, you will always be self conscious and paranoid that it will happen anywhere you go so I think that this can point to him being pretty badly bullied, yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:58 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
I do know first hand that if you are bullied a lot, you will always be self conscious and paranoid that it will happen anywhere you go so I think that this can point to him being pretty badly bullied, yes.

I read an article on this very thing, and I'd like to share it here:
http://thegrassgetsgreener.com/living-with-ptsd-after-bullying/

I think Eric may have been showing some symptoms as well, based on this article:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/somatic-psychology/201103/child-bullyings-consequence-adult-ptsd
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:28 pm

lilypadlane wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
I do know first hand that if you are bullied a lot, you will always be self conscious and paranoid that it will happen anywhere you go so I think that this can point to him being pretty badly bullied, yes.

I read an article on this very thing, and I'd like to share it here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think Eric may have been showing some symptoms as well, based on this article:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: you too? confused  Same here, I could tell much about it.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: good reading material, thanks for sharing! I have always thought that both Eric and Dylan had had some kind of complex posttrauma.

(I might over-analyze the whole story, but is it possible that they went NBK before graduation because they did not want to face the adult life?
I mean: both of them were clever guys and they probably understood that there were bullies in the adult world too? Maybe they thought "we have already gotten enough of this s**t, why would we go through even more of it?"
Were they so tired of their lives that they wished nothing else but going away forever - after having taken revenge? At least this is my impression. I assume this is why nothing and no-one could have stopped them.
This sounds very romantic and I am sure many teenagers have similar ideas and thoughts...)

The other thing I noticed is Dylan's feeling of being stigmatized as "a bad one".

In the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], he wrote about his "being a criminal" and that this girl whom he wrote the letter to would surely hate her if she had known what he had done.
What do you guys think?
"I am a criminal, I have done things that almost nobody would even think about condoning."
Isn't it a sign of that Dylan overestimated his earlier "crimes" - which were not that heinous: there are many youngsters who do such things and have affairs with the police, but grow up to be normal and non-criminal adults-?
"I won't be able to survive in this world after this legal conviction" - even if he did not end up in prison?

Again: it is possible that I am over-analyzing, but this gives me an impression that Dylan had already felt himself bad enough (scapegoat-like), otherwise he could have gotten over this legal conviction.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:35 pm

Moonshadow wrote:
lilypadlane wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
I do know first hand that if you are bullied a lot, you will always be self conscious and paranoid that it will happen anywhere you go so I think that this can point to him being pretty badly bullied, yes.

I read an article on this very thing, and I'd like to share it here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think Eric may have been showing some symptoms as well, based on this article:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: you too? confused  Same here, I could tell much about it.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: good reading material, thanks for sharing! I have always thought that both Eric and Dylan had had some kind of complex posttrauma.

(I might over-analyze the whole story, but is it possible that they went NBK before graduation because they did not want to face the adult life?
I mean: both of them were clever guys and they probably understood that there were bullies in the adult world too? Maybe they thought "we have already gotten enough of this s**t, why would we go through even more of it?"
Were they so tired of their lives that they wished nothing else but going away forever - after having taken revenge? At least this is my impression. I assume this is why nothing and no-one could have stopped them.
This sounds very romantic and I am sure many teenagers have similar ideas and thoughts...)

The other thing I noticed is Dylan's feeling of being stigmatized as "a bad one".

In the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], he wrote about his "being a criminal" and that this girl whom he wrote the letter to would surely hate her if she had known what he had done.
What do you guys think?
"I am a criminal, I have done things that almost nobody would even think about condoning."
Isn't it a sign of that Dylan overestimated his earlier "crimes" - which were not that heinous: there are many youngsters who do such things and have affairs with the police, but grow up to be normal and non-criminal adults-?
"I won't be able to survive in this world after this legal conviction" - even if he did not end up in prison?

Again: it is possible that I am over-analyzing, but this gives me an impression that Dylan had already felt himself bad enough (scapegoat-like), otherwise he could have gotten over this legal conviction.

Hm hard to say. It isnt' dated but is between the Feb and Aug 98 entries. Perhaps he was feeling guilty as well about planning NBK? He is a criminal...yea they were charged with criminal trespassing. If he wrote this after March 19 the diversion would already be decided.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:36 pm

Moonshadow wrote:
(I might over-analyze the whole story, but is it possible that they went NBK before graduation because they did not want to face the adult life?
I mean: both of them were clever guys and they probably understood that there were bullies in the adult world too? Maybe they thought "we have already gotten enough of this s**t, why would we go through even more of it?"
Were they so tired of their lives that they wished nothing else but going away forever - after having taken revenge? At least this is my impression. I assume this is why nothing and no-one could have stopped them.
This sounds very romantic and I am sure many teenagers have similar ideas and thoughts...)

The other thing I noticed is Dylan's feeling of being stigmatized as "a bad one".

In the love letter he did not send, he wrote about his "being a criminal" and that this girl whom he wrote the letter to would surely hate her if she had known what he had done.
What do you guys think?
"I am a criminal, I have done things that almost nobody would even think about condoning."
Isn't it a sign of that Dylan overestimated his earlier "crimes" - which were not that heinous: there are many youngsters who do such things and have affairs with the police, but grow up to be normal and non-criminal adults-?
"I won't be able to survive in this world after this legal conviction" - even if he did not end up in prison?

Again: it is possible that I am over-analyzing, but this gives me an impression that Dylan had already felt himself bad enough (scapegoat-like), otherwise he could have gotten over this legal conviction.

Pretty much all that you said seems true enough.
Dylan beat himself up so hard about the crime he did and then thinking of himself as a whole as wasteful. It's so unhealthy! Reading all of that I wish I could tell him to calm down. If there's a perfect example of someone who over-romanticises everything it's him.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:27 pm

Lizpuff wrote:

Hm hard to say.  It isnt' dated but is between the Feb and Aug 98 entries.  Perhaps he was feeling guilty as well about planning NBK?  He is a criminal...yea they were charged with criminal trespassing.  If he wrote this after March 19 the diversion would already be decided.

I agree it is hard to say, this is why I am so careful about forming any opinions Rolling Eyes
It is pretty possible that he had already seen himself as a perpetrator - even if the shooting had not happened yet? He seems to be very determined, it is clear that his words about suicide were not empty threats.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Pretty much all that you said seems true enough.
Dylan beat himself up so hard about the crime he did and then thinking of himself as a whole as wasteful. It's so unhealthy! Reading all of that I wish I could tell him to calm down. If there's a perfect example of someone who over-romanticises everything it's him.

Yeah, and exactly this black-or-white thinking - that you see as so unhealthy - makes me think he had serious problems with coping with shame and his own bad deeds. (Most of us have the ability to cope - at least, to a certain grade - with them and have a healthy feeling of "I am OK, even if I did something what is not OK at all." Identifying oneself with their own shameful deeds might be a sign of not having mature coping methods.)
Over-idealizing certain things and individuals, projecting his idealistic fantasies into them, while being completely helpless when it comes to shame-related questions shows that he had extremely great problems related to self-esteem and self-worth. "If I am not perfect, so I am a non-humane criminal... and so I might as well behave as one." Something like this?

Yeah, I have the same impression! Reading his thoughts, I feel like telling him "hey, the fact that you did this-and-that does not make you an immoral criminal for life! Not everyone who breaks the law is a notorious and unfixable criminal!" and "what you did (the happenings that led to January) was really not THAT bad." I wonder if anyone had said this to him?
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:37 pm

If this was about the Jan incident which I think it may be, I think it shows he was way more upset about it than he let on.

He seemed to be very meh about diversion and trying to repent for his crime. It seems he was more distraught about this then

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:39 pm

Moonshadow wrote:
Yeah, and exactly this black-or-white thinking - that you see as so unhealthy - makes me think he had serious problems with coping with shame and his own bad deeds. (Most of us have the ability to cope - at least, to a certain grade - with them and have a healthy feeling of "I am OK, even if I did something what is not OK at all." Identifying oneself with their own shameful deeds might be a sign of not having mature coping methods.)
Over-idealizing certain things and individuals, projecting his idealistic fantasies into them, while being completely helpless when it comes to shame-related questions shows that he had extremely great problems related to self-esteem and self-worth. "If I am not perfect, so I am a non-humane criminal... and so I might as well behave as one." Something like this?

I wish I knew what bred him to have this sort of perspective. From his minor crime, to his pornography taste/fetish, I mean every single thing that he thought would annihilate him from being a good person, he punished himself way too hard at it. Even in terms of his fetish he apologised for it and said something like he tried to stay away from it but he couldn't - or sth like that, can't recall right now.

I feel like if a girl he liked told him that he was okay and not everybody's perfect, it might help him chill out a little and feel that who he was can still be appreciated.
And I wouldn't say it's much of a coping method he needed but more like accepting his flaws, accepting his guilty pleasures, putting a limit to things he might deem as sinful, and grow as a person. as a man. Teens these days are lucky as we have progressed in the whole self-acceptance movement and they learn pretty hastily to appreciate who they are, etc etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:17 pm

ultraviolencelv wrote:
Moonshadow wrote:
Yeah, and exactly this black-or-white thinking - that you see as so unhealthy - makes me think he had serious problems with coping with shame and his own bad deeds. (Most of us have the ability to cope - at least, to a certain grade - with them and have a healthy feeling of "I am OK, even if I did something what is not OK at all." Identifying oneself with their own shameful deeds might be a sign of not having mature coping methods.)
Over-idealizing certain things and individuals, projecting his idealistic fantasies into them, while being completely helpless when it comes to shame-related questions shows that he had extremely great problems related to self-esteem and self-worth. "If I am not perfect, so I am a non-humane criminal... and so I might as well behave as one." Something like this?

I wish I knew what bred him to have this sort of perspective. From his minor crime, to his pornography taste/fetish, I mean every single thing that he thought would annihilate him from being a good person, he punished himself way too hard at it. Even in terms of his fetish he apologised for it and said something like he tried to stay away from it but he couldn't - or sth like that, can't recall right now.

I feel like if a girl he liked told him that he was okay and not everybody's perfect, it might help him chill out a little and feel that who he was can still be appreciated.
And I wouldn't say it's much of a coping method he needed but more like accepting his flaws, accepting his guilty pleasures, putting a limit to things he might deem as sinful, and grow as a person. as a man. Teens these days are lucky as we have progressed in the whole self-acceptance movement and they learn pretty hastily to appreciate who they are, etc etc.

yea I would also like to know when he started to feel like his thoughts ideas and actions were shameful.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:33 pm

Do you guys think his parents might have been hard on him in the form of shaming, and that could be why he was so hard on himself? My mentality was pretty similar to this when I was younger - everything I did made me feel like a terrible unworthy person, I was highly embarrassed and extremely hard on myself, and looking back for me it was the result of always being shamed, guilted and criticized growing up. If this was the case I'm not saying his parents didn't love him or anything, but that might have been their way (or one of his parent's way) of trying to steer him in the right direction?
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:39 pm

Kiwik wrote:
Do you guys think his parents might have been hard on him in the form of shaming, and that could be why he was so hard on himself? My mentality was pretty similar to this when I was younger - everything I did made me feel like a terrible unworthy person, I was highly embarrassed and extremely hard on myself, and looking back for me it was the result of always being shamed, guilted and criticized growing up. If this was the case I'm not saying his parents didn't love him or anything, but that might have been their way (or one of his parent's way) of trying to steer him in the right direction?

I'm not sure, because his parents seem like pretty chill and laidback parents. Ever since Sue came out into the media she seemed like someone who was quite relaxed and artsy and would implement discipline when things get way out of hand. I think Dylan had a case of extreme self-loathing to an extent where he felt someone like him don't get to indulge in the things that he did, and cannot do any wrong, since he thought him as a being was already trash. He grew self-conscious from the way he looked up till the things that he did. Adding on with liking a girl he thought was perfect and an angel, it put him down way lower than he already felt. edit: the self-loathing could definitely be the result of all the years of bullying he took.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:45 pm

Kiwik wrote:
Do you guys think his parents might have been hard on him in the form of shaming, and that could be why he was so hard on himself? My mentality was pretty similar to this when I was younger - everything I did made me feel like a terrible unworthy person, I was highly embarrassed and extremely hard on myself, and looking back for me it was the result of always being shamed, guilted and criticized growing up. If this was the case I'm not saying his parents didn't love him or anything, but that might have been their way (or one of his parent's way) of trying to steer him in the right direction?

I think so in a way. Sue was presented in Kass' book as being someone who was also ashamed of her thoughts and fears. I think as nice and supportive as Sue was that she may have projected this kind of thought onto Dylan in a way. This isn't to blame her at all but I do think kids read into that kind of thing
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan and PTSD Hypervigilance: a symptom of bullying   Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:52 am

yeah! its always struck me as super weird with how ashamed he was of his sexuality etc almost like he was raised in a very religious household or something...which he wasn't. so, i was always puzzled as to why he would beat himself up so hard and have such huge black and white thinking. like, for example, i have huge black and white thinking because i have BPD...but i dunno if he had that, we can't really diagnose him post mortem (even though Sue thinks he had a PD) but i've always found that odd. because Sue has always seemed very open minded but it could also be what you said [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] .

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