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 To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..

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Nirvana92

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PostSubject: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:44 am

Please read this article:


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Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?
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Lizpuff
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:52 am

I liked that article. I agree with a lot of it. Thanks for posting!

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Freezingmoon

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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:15 pm

The article mentions that Eric had a leg deformity.  I know about his chest deformity, but not about the leg deformity.  Does anyone know what it was?
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:20 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please read this article:


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Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?

That's exactly what a psychopath would say.

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Lizpuff
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:00 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The article mentions that Eric had a leg deformity.  I know about his chest deformity, but not about the leg deformity.  Does anyone know what it was?

I am not sure it was a deformity persay...but his medical records show him going in for leg issues many times in his early childhood. Clear as mud though lol
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:12 pm

I dont believe Eric was necessarily psychopath, I do however believe he was seriously mentally disturbed. Great article with a plausible theory.
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Nirvana92

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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:22 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please read this article:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?

That's exactly what a psychopath would say.

No if Eric was a sociopath he would have said so. He had no reason to lie on the BT or in his writings. Most socios know they're different from a very young age, and a good deal of them end up diagnosed with Conduct Disorder before the age of 18. Crying over missed friends isnt something a sociopath would do either. Eric was nothing more than a wanna be badass.
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please read this article:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?

That's exactly what a psychopath would say.

No if Eric was a sociopath he would have said so. He had no reason to lie on the BT or in his writings. Most socios know they're different from a very young age, and a good deal of them end up diagnosed with Conduct Disorder before the age of 18. Crying over missed friends isnt something a sociopath would do either. Eric was nothing more than a wanna be badass.


I respectfully disagree.

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Nirvana92

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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:32 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please read this article:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?

That's exactly what a psychopath would say.

No if Eric was a sociopath he would have said so. He had no reason to lie on the BT or in his writings. Most socios know they're different from a very young age, and a good deal of them end up diagnosed with Conduct Disorder before the age of 18. Crying over missed friends isnt something a sociopath would do either. Eric was nothing more than a wanna be badass.
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PaintItBlack
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:09 pm

If Eric was a psychopath so was Dylan.Nobody has shown me any convincing evidence or any evidence at all that this isn't the case other than This and that Dr. said so and Dylan wrote about wanting love and Eric wrote about killing.That's far from being enough to convince me.

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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


Eric's journal was all an act.
Amen (although I wouldn't say "all". I believe that some of his notes were his true views, he just chose to form it in a way that would make him look hateful and rebellious (i guess?) therefore it was a some kind of "act" meant to be published after his death. He wanted to be perceived that way and it worked.
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:33 am

In my opinion I don't think it's as easy as just labeling one or both of them a psychopath and leaving it at that. E&D were complex, unstable individuals. I think it has more to do with their personalities and how they dealt with their struggles. I do believe they both suffered from mental illness to some degree, but not enough to excuse their actions. I agree with other comments I've seen on this board and elsewhere that state that Eric was, deep down, overly sensitive and struggled with his feelings, which probably had a lot to do with why he felt he had to prove his masculinity. It seems like he took things way too personal and developed a vengeful attitude. Maybe he conditioned himself to react with anger when things upset him to appear more masculine, as opposed to say crying over it. I also agree with other comments that stated that sexual frustration played a big role for both of them (might have been the root of the problem, maybe moreso than bullying). All those factors combined with their desperation to prove themselves and be acknowledged, along with teenage hormones set up a 'perfect storm' environment. And even in the end, I don't believe that either one would have acted without the other. If one of them did have second thoughts or secretly didnt actually want to go through with it after devoting so much time and energy planning and expecting it to be epic, I bet neither would have had the heart to back out and let the other down.
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WhereHateRunsRed



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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:27 am

"Yeah he was just pretending to be full of hate it was an act"

>Shoots dozens of people

OK.
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Ivan



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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:41 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please read this article:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?
There's a difference between psychopathy and sociopathy. I personally believe both Eric and Dylan were sociopaths, along with Seung Hui Cho, Anders Breivik and all of those shooters that had a "reason" behind their sprees.

That's essentially what a sociopath is -- someone who justifies their violence by citing political reasons. Timothy McVeigh is another great example actually.
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Ivan



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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:48 am

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WhereHateRunsRed



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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:51 am

"Yeah he was just pretending to be full of hate it was an act"

>Shoots dozens of people

OK.
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Vii

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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:22 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
"Yeah he was just pretending to be full of hate it was an act"

>Shoots dozens of people

OK.
A human's mind & heart isn't just "black or white". The point was: the public as well as media try to present him as hateful only. They base it on his journal which shouldn't be used to examine his true personality since it was written a certain way on purpose.
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WhereHateRunsRed



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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:32 am

Yeah I'm not that dense I was just pointing out to the people who believed he was all talk that the facts state otherwise
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lasttrain
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:37 am

His journal was not an act. He attempted to do all the things he wrote about, which proves it was not an act.

Eric was a psychopath. The doctors who reviewed his writings, Dr. Frank Ochberg, Dr. Dwayne Fuselier, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, and Dr. Peter Langman, have all identified him as a psychopath. Unlike message board posters, these doctors have experience with thousands of patients. Dr. Robert Hare, who invented the category of psychopathy, endorsed the diagnosis by linking it on his website.

Eric's writings and the testimony about his behavior from others is a textbook fit with the psychopathy checklist. Psychopathy is not about killing people. It is about superficial charm, a grandiose sense of self, a need for constant stimulation, a love of lying, a shallow sense of emotion, poor self control, failure to take responsibility for one's own actions, a predatory disposition to others, and finally a record of juvenile delinquency.

Dylan does not fit most of these categories. His demeanor is not glib or smarmy, he did not constantly try to manipulate people for amusement, he does not exult in lying or deceiving others as a pastime, and he does not have a shallow sense of emotion.

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes emotions. On the contrary, Hare says that psychopaths often feel "shallow emotions" that are tiny compared to what a normal person would feel. Eric shedding tears over murdering 400 people and then trying to do it anyway is a great example of the kind of the "shallow emotion" that psychopaths feel.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In other words, textbook psychopath. Just like Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, Dr. Frank Ochs, and Dr. Dwayne Fusilier all say.
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:19 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
His journal was not an act.  He attempted to do all the things he wrote about, which proves it was not an act.

Eric was a psychopath.  The doctors who reviewed his writings, Dr. Frank Ochberg, Dr. Dwayne Fuselier, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, and Dr. Peter Langman, have all identified him as a psychopath.  Unlike message board posters, these doctors have experience with thousands of patients.  Dr. Robert Hare, who invented the category of psychopathy, endorsed the diagnosis by linking it on his website.

Eric's writings and the testimony about his behavior from others is a textbook fit with the psychopathy checklist.  Psychopathy is not about killing people.  It is about superficial charm, a grandiose sense of self, a need for constant stimulation, a love of lying, a shallow sense of emotion, poor self control, failure to take responsibility for one's own actions, a predatory disposition to others, and finally a record of juvenile delinquency.

Dylan does not fit most of these categories.  His demeanor is not glib or smarmy, he did not constantly try to manipulate people for amusement, he does not exult in lying or deceiving others as a pastime, and he does not have a shallow sense of emotion.

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes emotions.  On the contrary, Hare says that psychopaths often feel "shallow emotions" that are tiny compared to what a normal person would feel.  Eric shedding tears over murdering 400 people and then trying to do it anyway is a great example of the kind of the "shallow emotion" that psychopaths feel.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In other words, textbook psychopath. Just like Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, Dr. Frank Ochs, and Dr. Dwayne Fusilier all say.
You must have said 5 or 6 times now that you're not going to listen to anything people on a message board have to say over what these so called 'doctors' have to say? Why do you even bother visiting this message board if you don't care what anyone on it has to say? And you'd think if these doctors were so great, they'd know you can't properly diagnosis someone who is dead by writings they left behind.
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Kiwik
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:24 pm

I think they were too quick to slap a diagnosis on him b/c people wanted answers and it was one of the most logical, acceptable explanations. Almost like they were saying "Who cares, the kid murdered innocent people and blew his brains out. Typical psycopathic behavior. Next!" I just feel like there's way more to it than that.
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lasttrain
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
His journal was not an act.  He attempted to do all the things he wrote about, which proves it was not an act.

Eric was a psychopath.  The doctors who reviewed his writings, Dr. Frank Ochberg, Dr. Dwayne Fuselier, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, and Dr. Peter Langman, have all identified him as a psychopath.  Unlike message board posters, these doctors have experience with thousands of patients.  Dr. Robert Hare, who invented the category of psychopathy, endorsed the diagnosis by linking it on his website.

Eric's writings and the testimony about his behavior from others is a textbook fit with the psychopathy checklist.  Psychopathy is not about killing people.  It is about superficial charm, a grandiose sense of self, a need for constant stimulation, a love of lying, a shallow sense of emotion, poor self control, failure to take responsibility for one's own actions, a predatory disposition to others, and finally a record of juvenile delinquency.

Dylan does not fit most of these categories.  His demeanor is not glib or smarmy, he did not constantly try to manipulate people for amusement, he does not exult in lying or deceiving others as a pastime, and he does not have a shallow sense of emotion.

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes emotions.  On the contrary, Hare says that psychopaths often feel "shallow emotions" that are tiny compared to what a normal person would feel.  Eric shedding tears over murdering 400 people and then trying to do it anyway is a great example of the kind of the "shallow emotion" that psychopaths feel.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In other words, textbook psychopath. Just like Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, Dr. Frank Ochs, and Dr. Dwayne Fusilier all say.
You must have said 5 or 6 times now that you're not going to listen to anything people on a message board have to say over what these so called 'doctors' have to say? Why do you even bother visiting this message board if you don't care what anyone on it has to say? And you'd think if these doctors were so great, they'd know you can't properly diagnosis someone who is dead by writings they left behind.

But if it is true that you cannot diagnose a dead person, how are these doctors--who in Dr. Hare's case invented the diagnostic criteria--doing it?

Who defines when you can and cannot diagnose someone? Doctors.
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:39 pm

When did Eric lie as a pastime?He lied to keep himself out of trouble and to put forth the illusion that he was living a normal life with a planned future.Dylan did the exact same thing.

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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:27 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please read this article:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?
There's a difference between psychopathy and sociopathy. I personally believe both Eric and Dylan were sociopaths, along with Seung Hui Cho, Anders Breivik and all of those shooters that had a "reason" behind their sprees.

That's essentially what a sociopath is -- someone who justifies their violence by citing political reasons. Timothy McVeigh is another great example actually.

I agree to an extent, but its still not that simple. Just about anyone who kills another person will try and justify it. Its simple human nature. Sociopaths have a deep rooted belief in themselves that trumps all. A sociopath wouldn't write love letters like Dylan did. A sociopath wouldn't dream of killing themselves either and suicide altogether is rare for the disorder. I do believe Dylan was extremely selfish and loved manipulating people. He exhibited behavioral signs that very much remind me of an addict, except instead of drugs it was his own death he obsessed over. I think Dylan knew in his heart that he was eventually going to kill himself years before NBK happened. All the lies and manipulation (especially in his final year) was all done to assure his death.

I understand why people say Eric was a psychopath, but I can't accept it myself. I think a "crisis of masculinity" better explains the gap between the acting in his journal/BTs and IRL day-to-day personality his peers saw. IMO the fact that he willingly admitted suicidal and homicidal thoughts to his psychiatrist is quite telling. To a real psychopath/sociopath lying to a mental health professional is like their SuperBowl. Instead of lying though Eric told the truth like he really wanted help. Him crying over old friends is another is another one of those moments. That's a shocking amount of emotion for a cold blodded badass psychopath to show. Even weirder is the fact that he left it for us to see after putting in all the work to make his Reb character a reality.
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:46 pm

I just can't accept the psychopath diagnosis either. I wanted to believe it at first.....I really wanted to, because then things would make sense.  But honestly, Dylan seems  more manipulative than Eric.  Dylan terrifies me the most.  Dylan seems the most sadistic.  I feel like Eric was salvageable under the right circumstances....Dylan not so much.

The field of psychiatry is just a huge cluster-f*ck.  Doctors misdiagnose the living on a frequent basis.....I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they misdiagnosed an 18 year old dead guy based on the ramblings found in his journal.
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
When did Eric lie as a pastime?He lied to keep himself out of trouble and to put forth the illusion that he was living a normal life with a planned future.Dylan did the exact same thing.

you know what, I feel like telling about lies. I lie a lot. almost constant. and to everybody

I could convince them that I'm going to climb Mount Everest . . . I can make you believe anything.

Here he is not just lying for self-preservation or to keep out of trouble, but for sport and to mock the people around him.
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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:45 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
When did Eric lie as a pastime?He lied to keep himself out of trouble and to put forth the illusion that he was living a normal life with a planned future.Dylan did the exact same thing.

you know what, I feel like telling about lies. I lie a lot. almost constant. and to everybody

I could convince them that I'm going to climb Mount Everest . . . I can make you believe anything.

Here he is not just lying for self-preservation or to keep out of trouble, but for sport and to mock the people around him.


That really doesn't prove anything as he had to lie to most people he knew to keep out of trouble and to keep the NBK plan going.
As for the second quote just because he had some pride in how good he was at lying, doesn't mean that he did it just to be doing it .And again,Dylan lied a lot too.He put his family through a whole college odyssey knowing he almost certainly wasn't going be around to go.

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Ivan



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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:25 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Please read this article:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Eric's journal was all an act. He brags throughout about how he can make us believe anything. He says he wants to "leave a lasting impression on the world". Hell the kid says he WISHES he was a sociopath so he wouldn't feel anything. If he knew what a sociopath was, and he really was a sociopath, then he would have known he was a sociopath. That's just how sociopathy works. How can this even still be an argument 17 years later?
There's a difference between psychopathy and sociopathy. I personally believe both Eric and Dylan were sociopaths, along with Seung Hui Cho, Anders Breivik and all of those shooters that had a "reason" behind their sprees.

That's essentially what a sociopath is -- someone who justifies their violence by citing political reasons. Timothy McVeigh is another great example actually.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I agree to an extent, but its still not that simple. Just about anyone who kills another person will try and justify it. Its simple human nature. Sociopaths have a deep rooted belief in themselves that trumps all. A sociopath wouldn't write love letters like Dylan did. A sociopath wouldn't dream of killing themselves either and suicide altogether is rare for the disorder. I do believe Dylan was extremely selfish and loved manipulating people. He exhibited behavioral signs that very much remind me of an addict, except instead of drugs it was his own death he obsessed over. I think Dylan knew in his heart that he was eventually going to kill himself years before NBK happened. All the lies and manipulation (especially in his final year) was all done to assure his death.
Not exactly - a lot of serial killers revel in the experience of being found out/caught. Some do (like you've said) try and justify it, but there are a lot of them who don't. I don't feel serial killers who seek out victims then try and justify it later are sociopaths - I believe they are psychopaths trying to use another angle of manipulation in order to get their way.

Sociopaths are different in that they lead a seemingly normal life until they decide they want to get back at society for the damage that's been done, eerily similar traits to the shooters/perpetrators I've listed above. The difference is they all had different thresholds. Eric and Dylan's weren't high enough - and I believe a sociopath may look at suicide as an escape. Dylan wanted to hurt others though as evidenced by his November 1997 journal entry.

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I understand why people say Eric was a psychopath, but I can't accept it myself. I think a "crisis of masculinity" better explains the gap between the acting in his journal/BTs and IRL day-to-day personality his peers saw. IMO the fact that he willingly admitted suicidal and homicidal thoughts to his psychiatrist is quite telling. To a real psychopath/sociopath lying to a mental health professional is like their SuperBowl. Instead of lying though Eric told the truth like he really wanted help. Him crying over old friends is another is another one of those moments. That's a shocking amount of emotion for a cold blodded badass psychopath to show. Even weirder is the fact that he left it for us to see after putting in all the work to make his Reb character a reality.
I put Eric in the same category as Dylan, actually. I don't think they were too dissimilar - I think they were friends because they had so much in common. Both could manipulate very well, but as you have said, Eric was the one leaving signs behind.

An interesting thing to note too (even though it's unlikely) is that Eric wrote on one of his AOL profiles "I like being schizophrenic", perhaps indicating he knew he was sick but liked it?[/quote]
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cass2008



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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:33 pm

there are a lot of things they could have diagnosed Eric with but at the same time eric was a good deceiver after all we do know this much about him...
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jp2892

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PostSubject: Re: To all the "Eric was a psychopath" people..   Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:23 pm

I can understand and believe that Eric wasn't as "psychopathic" as some people believe, but I don't quite understand why some of you are saying that Dylan was the scary one. Yeah, he lied and manipulated - but was it really any worse than Eric? Why are so many people saying Dylan was the most sadistic out of the two?
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