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 Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia

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PostSubject: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:55 am

Quote :
“Gays…. well all gays, ALL gays, should be killed. Mit keine fragen [German: without questions]. Lesbians are fun to watch if they are hot but still, its not human. It’s a fucking disease. You don’t see bulls or roosters trying to fuck, do you? No, I didn’t think so.”
...
“Women, you will always be under men. It’s been seen throughout nature, males are almost always doing the dangerous shit while the women stay back. It’s your animal instincts, deal with it or commit suicide, just do it quick. That’s all for now.”

How serious was Eric with his Homophobia and Sexism? Now I'm sure we remember the numerous debates we have on the entry he made about his desire to "rape"/have hardcore sexual encounters with women, nevertheless for me, I feel that was an example of an entry of his to take with a grain of salt.
However my question in terms of his homophobia mainly is, HOW was he groomed to indulge in an ignorant perspective such as that? Who taught him that or rather, if he taught himself as so, there has to be a root to this belief no? It has to be through some form of influence to be or in this case to sound so hateful towards gays/lesbians. And I would like to tie this with his comments on sexism aswell, although I feel the sexism entries sounds like he is echoing old-school sexism he probably picked up from books or movies, just to sound like a jerk, I'm not sure if it would be WHO he was as a young man. El thoughtzos?

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:20 am

it always seemed like he said this kind of shit for shock value for me but thats just my opinion. but with the kind of person he was...i wouldn't put it past him to tease someone who was gay. especially because jocks called him and Dylan "fags" all of the time and a kid like Eric would act out and start to make fun of gay kids to sort of...feel some weird twisted catharsis. its a lot like when he said that he makes fun of kids who look like him.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:27 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
it always seemed like he said this kind of shit for shock value for me but thats just my opinion. but with the kind of person he was...i wouldn't put it past him to tease someone who was gay. especially because jocks called him and Dylan "fags" all of the time and a kid like Eric would act out and start to make fun of gay kids to sort of...feel some weird twisted catharsis. its a lot like when he said that he makes fun of kids who look like him.
So do you mean that everything that he has written about: homophobia, sexism, racism, rape, each of them is out of shock value and just for the heck of it? I agree some of it is to that extent, however with certain topics, I'm wondering how much he means and how he ended up with such belief. It sort of bummed me out reading his comments about Gays and Women. Cause it was really hard to grasp.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:57 am

i think some of it was for shock value, yes. because he knew he would get a rise out of people and it would shock their sensibilities and upset them the way they did you, for example (and i honestly don't blame you. things like that upset me as well). and i also think he just hated people in general? so he wanted to say the most horrible and demeaning things possible about people. but i also--like i said--wouldn't put it past him to honestly not like gay people etc. because the way he was acting and acting out all of the rage and alienation he was feeling was neither nice or constructive. he was just a stupid punk ass kid half of the time, a total douche. but then he had times when he wasn't. so i think thats what confuses us. the instability of his personality.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:49 am

One thing I've noticed doing my own research on Columbine is the considerably homophobic views many students of Columbine in the late 90s harbored, not just Eric or Dylan. Narrow-minded, conservative, middle class America at its worst - almost like homophobia was the norm back then. I'm glad it seems like society has somewhat shifted its attitude towards becoming accepting of the LGBT community, but there is still a long, long way to go and many regressive thinkers (and complete head-cases ala the Pulse Nightclub shooter) in our midst.

I've always wondered how Eric and Dylan formed their racist views. I guess as Littleton was a predominantly white town, they didn't often associate with many people of other races. I guess races/cultures were just another target for their hatred (and in Dylan's case, self-hatred considering he hated on Jews despite being Jewish himself).

Eric in particular had some pretty sexist views, too. He mentioned a couple of times that women were inferior to men, reportedly in the basement tapes he said that women were simply "bitches who should make me dinner" etc. I wonder if his anger at females who turned him down exacerbated those thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:20 am

^ agreed. especially about the area they were living in and really the time they were living in. but, really there are still people who think that way even now and there will always be. i don't think it was just about them as individuals...it was also about society as a whole especially in small towns and predominately white towns like that.

which is actually why it scares me as a Latina female to live anywhere in the US but in a big city. there is a lot of homophobia and racism going on in towns like that. especially because people don't humanize us in places like that because we do not live there and we are not welcome there.

its actually a wonder to me that Dylan's parents were as open as they were. its just a lot of unlearning for white people. finding out about white privilege, finding out about feminism and how important it is but also wanting to actually put those things to use. and wanting to put those things into your brain and belief systems instead of disregarding it as jokes and nothing serious.

i definitely think those things were a factor. i have other opinions on it that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] probably doesn't share but i do agree with you on what you said up top. i do think those are/were definitely factors.


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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
One thing I've noticed doing my own research on Columbine is the considerably homophobic views many students of Columbine in the late 90s harbored, not just Eric or Dylan. Narrow-minded, conservative, middle class America at its worst - almost like homophobia was the norm back then. I'm glad it seems like society has somewhat shifted its attitude towards becoming accepting of the LGBT community, but there is still a long, long way to go and many regressive thinkers (and complete head-cases ala the Pulse Nightclub shooter) in our midst.

I've always wondered how Eric and Dylan formed their racist views. I guess as Littleton was a predominantly white town, they didn't often associate with many people of other races. I guess races/cultures were just another target for their hatred (and in Dylan's case, self-hatred considering he hated on Jews despite being Jewish himself).

Eric in particular had some pretty sexist views, too. He mentioned a couple of times that women were inferior to men, reportedly in the basement tapes he said that women were simply "bitches who should make me dinner" etc. I wonder if his anger at females who turned him down exacerbated those thoughts?

Yeah thank you for elaborating on the sexism. I did wanna add in like a follow up to more of the stuff he said but I'm focusing more on the homophobia initially, so. Very good factor you brought up, I'd like to learn more. Middle-class suburban conservative America in the 90s, literally where and the period they were brought up, it's to no surprise it has bred a view such as that. I think [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] also made a good point where Eric's reaction significantly could also be due to the gay/fag bullying received, hence causing him to counter react the same way to gay people in general.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I wonder if his anger at females who turned him down exacerbated those thoughts?
It might be, same as the gay accusations he received.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I guess races/cultures were just another target for their hatred (and in Dylan's case, self-hatred considering he hated on Jews despite being Jewish himself).
I'm not sure if I can agree on this yet, on the latter. Mmmm self-hatred was present for Dyl but I can't really vouch when race or religion comes in.

But lol at the "If they're hot lesbians it'd be fun to watch". Come on now.What if they offered him a threesome? huh Eric?

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:55 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
which is actually why it scares me as a Latina female to live anywhere in the US but in a big city. there is a lot of homophobia and racism going on in towns like that. especially because people don't humanize us in places like that because we do not live there and we are not welcome there.

Good point, that's something that crossed my mind as well re: Littleton.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
its actually a wonder to me that Dylan's parents were as open as they were.

That's why I've always wondered to myself how Dylan came to be who he was despite his upbringing, as his parents seemed to be relatively open-minded, accepting people...but then again on second thought, Sue was pretty uptight when it came to Byron Klebold's pot use. I'm by no means a pot smoker myself, but was it really a big deal? I think a lot of teenagers go through phases with alcohol/weed. Perhaps the Klebolds were more conservative than some of us may think (totally not criticizing Sue or Tom, just a random thought that I had).
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:56 am

Perhaps the period of time they lived and grew up in has caused them to be complacent without the need to try and learn about LGBT issues and open those doors up. Let alone as teens, getting caught being accepting of such culture would only cause more bullying and picking on from them. But the lesbian comment Eric made shows alot: that he isn't really hateful if girl on girl relationship turns him on. It's kinda like those typical guys who cringe at gays but would force two girls to make out and take their top off at a party.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:58 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
its actually a wonder to me that Dylan's parents were as open as they were.

That's why I've always wondered to myself how Dylan came to be who he was despite his upbringing, as his parents seemed to be relatively open-minded, accepting people...but then again on second thought, Sue was pretty uptight when it came to Byron Klebold's pot use. I'm by no means a pot smoker myself, but was it really a big deal? I think a lot of teenagers go through phases with alcohol/weed. Perhaps the Klebolds were more conservative than some of us may think (totally not criticizing Sue or Tom, just a random thought that I had).

Don't we find out how open they were only through Dylan's mom after the massacre? I mean, we have no idea of their household really prior to NBK/throughout Dyl's life. Sue seems cool, no doubt, I can tell, but we don't really know for sure.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:02 am

liquorvamp wrote:
But lol at the "If they're hot lesbians it'd be fun to watch". Come on now. What if they offered him a threesome? huh Eric?

Of course he would've wanted in, he was a self-confessed hypocrite.

I've always wondered how many men who decry homosexuality as "unnatural" would be subject to an involuntary, natural bodily response if presented with visual stimulation of two attractive women together.
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:05 am

liquorvamp wrote:

Don't we find out how open they were only through Dylan's mom after the massacre? I mean, we have no idea of their household really prior to NBK/throughout Dyl's life. Sue seems cool, no doubt, I can tell, but we don't really know for sure.

Exactly. Not to say that Sue is a fraud or was by any means a bad mother (she obviously loved and still loves her son dearly), but hindsight is 20/20.
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:38 am

I agree with a lot of what is said above.

The 90's were not as accepting of gays. And being that Littleton was a small town with a lot of religion they were not accepting. Some religion not all of course but some preach hellfire over gays and lesbians. Even if Eric and Dylan did not attend a church or anything they must have come into contact with this kind of thinking at an early stage in life.

And I don't know if I can explain this thought but I feel like Eric's dad would be not very accepting of that either. I feel like Eric may have picked some of these thoughts up from his dad. Not saying that Wayne was a racist or sexist, but I feel he is very old school.

If you read Jeff Kass' book, Sue is represented in that book as pretty open but that she had a ton of anxiety and fears. I am pretty sure this is where Dylan got his fears and anxiety from. I don't think she truly got over it by the time Dylan was born.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
And I don't know if I can explain this thought but I feel like Eric's dad would be not very accepting of that either. I feel like Eric may have picked some of these thoughts up from his dad. Not saying that Wayne was a racist or sexist, but I feel he is very old school.

If you read Jeff Kass' book, Sue is represented in that book as pretty open but that she had a ton of anxiety and fears. I am pretty sure this is where Dylan got his fears and anxiety from. I don't think she truly got over it by the time Dylan was born.

Lizzy, would you recommend Jeff's book to me? Cause honestly I haven't read it in full yet, and I've seen it referenced alot and it sounds like a really promising read. How fictional or embellished is it?
It's my first time learning of Sue's anxiety. That's very interesting, wow. and I guess I would understand if Dyl himself picked up these traits. I hope Sue didn't beat herself up too much regarding this aspect. It's almost relatable to me considering some of the negative traits that I've picked up from my mom and having to cope with it.

Ditto on Wayne Harris. No doubt that the boy has been fed strict morals and pressured by him.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:06 am

liquorvamp wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
And I don't know if I can explain this thought but I feel like Eric's dad would be not very accepting of that either. I feel like Eric may have picked some of these thoughts up from his dad. Not saying that Wayne was a racist or sexist, but I feel he is very old school.

If you read Jeff Kass' book, Sue is represented in that book as pretty open but that she had a ton of anxiety and fears. I am pretty sure this is where Dylan got his fears and anxiety from. I don't think she truly got over it by the time Dylan was born.

Lizzy, would you recommend Jeff's book to me? Cause honestly I haven't read it in full yet, and I've seen it referenced alot and it sounds like a really promising read. How fictional or embellished is it?
It's my first time learning of Sue's anxiety. That's very interesting, wow.  and I guess I would understand if Dyl himself picked up these traits. I hope Sue didn't beat herself up too much regarding this aspect. It's almost relatable to me considering some of the negative traits that I've picked up from my mom and having to cope with it.

Ditto on Wayne Harris. No doubt that the boy has been fed strict morals and pressured by him.

Well it is a very quick read. I just reread it in 2 days and that was not reading very much at all during sessions...my husband just had surgery so I read while he was being worked on...anyway....I think it is a good book.

It has a ton more info on the Klebolds rather than the Harrises but he gives good insight into the Klebold and Harris backgrounds and Eric and Dylan's roots. He doesn't give too much info on the massacre itself as in like a timeline etc but goes very in depth into the after effects and his efforts to get information. He worked for the RMN so he has a ton of info. I would recommend it.
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:20 pm

I think I'll hop right on it. Did you read the dutch one? "We are but we aren't psycho"?

Each time I'm ready to think Eric is complex enough through his rants and the observation that he makes, he goes around and says the most closed-minded things that's disappointing. Say I were his friend back in the 90s and we would clash on things like this, he might end up hating me. hahah.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:34 pm

Eric was homophobic but so was Dylan.I think its a reaction to them being called gay themselves for so long and a reflection of the school/town environment they lived in.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:37 am

liquorvamp wrote:
I think I'll hop right on it. Did you read the dutch one? "We are but we aren't psycho"?

Each time I'm ready to think Eric is complex enough through his rants and the observation that he makes, he goes around and says the most closed-minded things that's disappointing. Say I were his friend back in the 90s and we would clash on things like this, he might end up hating me. hahah.

I have it and have started reading it a few times but the translation I have is not the best so it is hard to get into. I hope to finish it soon
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:58 am

The best rule of thumb is that they wanted the massacre to be as obscene as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:09 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The best rule of thumb is that they wanted the massacre to be as obscene as possible.
So the graphic writing and rants were like accessories?

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:29 pm

liquorvamp wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The best rule of thumb is that they wanted the massacre to be as obscene as possible.
So the graphic writing and rants were like accessories?

Eric wanted to be the opposite of what other people saw as good. Directing special violence at people who are already weak and persecuted was part of that.

If he had not committed the shooting, would Eric have gone on to be an anti-gay activist? No. But if he had found an "out" gay classmate in the school during the shooting, I do believe he would have been more likely to shoot him because a hate crime would compound the awfulness of what he was doing. Same as with Isaiah.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:12 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Eric wanted to be the opposite of what other people saw as good. Directing special violence at people who are already weak and persecuted was part of that.

If he had not committed the shooting, would Eric have gone on to be an anti-gay activist? No. But if he had found an "out" gay classmate in the school during the shooting, I do believe he would have been more likely to shoot him because a hate crime would compound the awfulness of what he was doing. Same as with Isaiah.
Okay. Then good. It's not who he truly was.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:25 am

Yeah, I just think it was all for shock value.
Because all of the obscene homophobia, racism and sexism just seemed very…"cliche" to me. A regurgitation of the most ignoramus and obnoxious stuff racists, homophobic and sexists say.
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:16 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Yeah, I just think it was all for shock value.
Because all of the obscene homophobia, racism and sexism just seemed very…"cliche" to me. A regurgitation of the most ignoramus and obnoxious stuff racists, homophobic and sexists say.

I agree. He is speaking to an audience and was pretty much building himself up to be the top macho aggressive man for both himself and the readers.
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:32 pm

With respect to others' views, let me write about my own impressions.

Eric often had contradictory opinions, so that sometimes it is hard to decide what he really meant.
For example, while he smoked not only cigarettes, but sometimes he enjoyed cigars - he did mention young smokers in his "You know what I hate?" list.
As he had an extraordinarily impulsive personality, I assume that sometimes he did not think before he spoke or wrote.

I have to agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I have this impression that he tried his best to build himself up to be the "Alpha male", and said things he thought to be suitable for a macho. Therefore it was really important for him, to come with homophobic and male-chauvinistic attitudes.

(But hey, it was a girl, Robyn, who helped them obtain firearms! And we see a girl too, on the video where they are practising their shooting abilities!)

And, I can really relate to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ' thoughts on this. I find it possible that such attitudes might have been "the norm" in that environment (though not necessarily in such a radical form.)

So I think it was mostly an important part of his aggressive macho image.
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:09 pm

I'm of a mind that he was either projecting an image or hated everyone equally.

Given his writings about hating racists, and then the names that Isaiah was called, it seems very contradictory.

Sadly - for those of you wondering, yes, homophobia was the norm at the time. I think this article sums it up best for what it was like to be a homosexual person in the 90's
https://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/soin/enhancingCurricula/timeline.html#1990s
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:20 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Eric often had contradictory opinions, so that sometimes it is hard to decide what he really meant.
For example, while he smoked not only cigarettes, but sometimes he enjoyed cigars - he did mention young smokers in his "You know what I hate?" list.
As he had an extraordinarily impulsive personality, I assume that sometimes he did not think before he spoke or wrote.

I have to agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I have this impression that he tried his best to build himself up to be the "Alpha male", and said things he thought to be suitable for a macho. Therefore it was really important for him, to come with homophobic and male-chauvinistic attitudes.

I agree with this.
And I echo the shared sentiment that he said the most textbook typical shocking ignorant "opinions" to have him come off as not just one but a concoction of things that would make him look ignorant and that of an asshole but yet, probably the way that HE thought was the norm back then so that he'd be cool - so to be homophobic and racist, looking down on women, etc.

The thing is I wonder is if he were living in our time today, would he be someone who is supportive of LGTB community? And let's say for the Black Lives Matter movement going on now?

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:03 pm

That's a really great question. I wonder if he would have matured to the point where he would have come around (assuming those were really his opinions) or if he'd have matured to a point of no longer caring what others thoughts of his opinions in regards to whether or not they aligned with the cultural norm (assuming they weren't).
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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:44 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Yeah, I just think it was all for shock value.
Because all of the obscene homophobia, racism and sexism just seemed very…"cliche" to me. A regurgitation of the most ignoramus and obnoxious stuff racists, homophobic and sexists say.

Agreed. I find it difficult to believe most things he put into that journal. I take that shit with a big old pinch of salt.

With nobody to call him out - only he was reading this after all - until it was past the time that they could see him for who he really was, he could get away with saying whatever the fuck he wanted.

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PostSubject: Re: Problematic: Eric Harris' Homophobia   Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:28 pm

Maybe it all seemed cliche because he was an teenager that wrote those things in 1998/1999, we are reading it as adults in 2016. It doesn't mean that he didn't truly believe what he was saying. You may find similar shock value content in a lot of teenagers journals, but how many of them will formulate a plan to kill 100's of students, including people they are friends with? I would take what that teenager says literally in a journal, because he proved he wasn't kidding. He was a sadistic, deeply disturbed kid.
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