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seether



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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:42 am

I thought I read in the autopsy reports that Dylan had marks/scars consistent with self-harm? I can't remember in regards to Eric, but I thought he did, also.

Does anyone know how long records are kept after a suicide, by the coroner's office and/or the police etc.? I've been interested in getting any from my father's suicide, but since it was in the 1990s, I'm not sure how lucky I'd be.

If I may offer, I'd be glad to answer any questions that I can in regards to Eric's method of suicide, in particular. My father died in the same manner, .12 gauge, double-barrel, and yes, it really is a truly horrific and virtually guaranteed method of suicide. I've often wondered about Eric's service, because my grandmother did insist on an open casket viewing, for immediate family, and he was embalmed, so I know it's possible, and it is done at times. (The face/head area was hidden, so that we were able to view his body from the neck down, and see his hands, at least. It was absolutely as f-ed up as it sounds.)

I agree with what others said, regarding the weight of brain matter. You can only collect so much before you have to resort to using a putty knife or wringing out carpeting, book pages, etc. Luckily, I did NOT see that part, but others did. I know that my family had to pay for the damages, and I heard what had to be done so that the landlord was able to rent the apartment out again. I've done years of researching into this area, sort of a way to combat PTSD and desensitize myself as much as possible. I feel terrible for the Dylan's and Eric's families, to have those photos splashed all over a tabloid magazine, and now the internet. How devastating that would be. I can't believe that they were actually published, in print. Absolutely nothing is sacred.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:03 am

seether wrote:
If I may offer, I'd be glad to answer any questions that I can in regards to Eric's method of suicide, in particular. My father died in the same manner, .12 gauge, double-barrel, and yes, it really is a truly horrific and virtually guaranteed method of suicide. I've often wondered about Eric's service, because my grandmother did insist on an open casket viewing, for immediate family, and he was embalmed, so I know it's possible, and it is done at times. (The face/head area was hidden, so that we were able to view his body from the neck down, and see his hands, at least. It was absolutely as f-ed up as it sounds.)

I agree with what others said, regarding the weight of brain matter. You can only collect so much before you have to resort to using a putty knife or wringing out carpeting, book pages, etc. Luckily, I did NOT see that part, but others did. I know that my family had to pay for the damages, and I heard what had to be done so that the landlord was able to rent the apartment out again. I've done years of researching into this area, sort of a way to combat PTSD and desensitize myself as much as possible. I feel terrible for the Dylan's and Eric's families, to have those photos splashed all over a tabloid magazine, and now the internet. How devastating that would be. I can't believe that they were actually published, in print. Absolutely nothing is sacred.

I'm extremely sorry for your loss and I'm appreciative that you're willing to talk about it and are handling it well. Continue remaining strong. I'm really proud that your choice of engaging in such researches helps you as you said combat PTSD and desensitise yourself. Sometimes it's the best way to cope and I understand that aspect.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:21 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:03 am

Lizpuff wrote:
One thing I have always wondered about is this:

This is a snip from Dylan's autopsy.

It mentions pulmonary edema.  And from what I gather it is associated or can be associated with heart failure.  Could this be caused from his suicide or would this have been something going on from when he was alive?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I know Tomb already answered this quite well, but I'll add my 2 cents because I work with heart failure patients and see this in almost all of them: From what I gather the pulmonary edema occurred because Dylan shot himself in such a way that his heart continued to beat for a short period of time (he didn't blow out his brainstem like Eric did).  As Dylan lost blood his blood pressure drastically dropped and he went into hypovolemic shock. His heart began to fail and when the left side of the heart fails to pump blood out of the heart, the blood backs up into the lung vessels and causes pulmonary congestion.  Pressures in the lungs increase and fluids begin to seep out into the air spaces, which causes pulmonary edema. It's like drowning in your own body fluids. The body's natural response it to start coughing.....which is probably why Patrick Ireland heard coughing in the library at some point. Between the two guys, I say Eric did it the right way. His death was instant. I always wondered why Dylan chose to shoot himself this way. If I was going for instant, sure death, I would have chosen Eric's way.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:10 am

Freezingmoon wrote:
Lizpuff wrote:
One thing I have always wondered about is this:

This is a snip from Dylan's autopsy.

It mentions pulmonary edema.  And from what I gather it is associated or can be associated with heart failure.  Could this be caused from his suicide or would this have been something going on from when he was alive?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I know Tomb already answered this quite well, but I'll add my 2 cents because I work with heart failure patients and see this in almost all of them: From what I gather the pulmonary edema occurred because Dylan shot himself in such a way that his heart continued to beat for a short period of time (he didn't blow out his brainstem like Eric did).  As Dylan lost blood his blood pressure drastically dropped and he went into hypovolemic shock. His heart began to fail and when the left side of the heart fails to pump blood out of the heart, the blood backs up into the lung vessels and causes pulmonary congestion.  Pressures in the lungs increase and fluids begin to seep out into the air spaces, which causes pulmonary edema. It's like drowning in your own body fluids. The body's natural response it to start coughing.....which is probably why Patrick Ireland heard coughing in the library at some point. Between the two guys, I say Eric did it the right way. His death was instant. I always wondered why Dylan chose to shoot himself this way. If I was going for instant, sure death, I would have chosen Eric's way.

Wow. Thank you for the response and it makes total sense. I don't usually feel bad for Eric and Dylan but this made me feel bad for him. No matter what he did this sounds like a horrible way to die!
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:12 am

That is so sad Dylan! That is soooo sad. Urgh I'm frustrated.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:12 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:15 am

I just wonder if Dylan just didn't know how to kill himself properly....It seems kinda silly because he wanted to die so bad...but in movies this is how a lot of people kill themselves. Could it be possible he thought this was a good way to commit suicide? I don't know. TBH before all this kind of talk I would have thought the same.

My husband's uncle committed suicide the same way as Dylan but with a much larger caliber of gun. He died instantly

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:22 am

It could be between freaking out at that moment seeing the result of his best friend's suicide and assuming the classic movie-method of gun to the head. Either way, he's the one who always wanted to die and yet he let himself suffer that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:35 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:40 am

Tomb wrote:
Like I say, it's very intriguing and provocative because, based on their journals, you would think the suicides would be reversed, Dylan with the shotgun and Eric with the Tec-9. Well, maybe not Eric. He strikes me as somebody that would have made up his mind he was going to blow his brains out with the 12 gauge in advance of the massacre. I don't think he would have left anything to chance.

Most police departments now no longer use 9 mm ammunition because it is unpredictable. Say a police officer is shooting someone in the drivers seat and they have a rear passenger. It's well documented that the 9 mm round can enter the driver of the vehicle, pass through them and the seat and enter the rear passenger, potentially killing an innocent person.

There have been cases of attempted suicide with 9mm ammunition that has ended up either maiming the individual or causing extensive damage that requires long-term, round the clock care. I think I addressed this on this thread too, but there are cases of attempted suicide via a 12 gauge that didn't kill the person. That's why I say it's *almost* guaranteed death.

So based on all of this. When this was going on with Dylan he was probably unconscious? It sounds like the coughing and whatnot was probably a natural body response.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:49 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:53 am

Tomb wrote:
It's possible he was conscious for a period of time, but it's also possible he wasn't. We know he moved some after he shot himself. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] has a pretty good description somewhere on here I've read. For instance, he moved his head after shooting himself based on the blood patterns around his mouth. I don't think he lived for long, maybe a minute or so, but it's hard to tell. What we do know is that he did live for enough time for the pulmonary edema to develop enough to show at autopsy.

I guess for my own personal sake I hope he was not conscious just because I don't wish that suffering on anyone. Anyway thanks for your opinions I find it all fascinating!
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:09 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:18 am

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This maybe? I have differing thoughts than hers on some things but others I believe

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:09 pm

Thank you for that information, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] , including the information and theories about Dylan's last moments. It was my dad, rather than grandfather, who died by suicide - although his father/my grandfather actually DID die by suicide as well (overdose, in his case). I'm still mixed about the open casket; I appreciate the lengths that they go to, to honor family wishes. The head and face was built up - it was more or less a decapitation - and while it was all covered with a silk scarf, they really did a great job of constructing and shaping things. Hence, why I often wonder about Eric's funeral.

I'll try to find where I read about SI marks - who knows where my brain might have swiped it from, if not any actual medical records. I'm really curious about the pulmonary edema. My mom had congestive heart failure, and obviously, it didn't happen within moments, but Dylan's case is obviously different. I didn't notice that term when I was scanning the autopsy report. So what is the possible timeline for that, in this kind of case? Obviously death was not instant, but I wonder how long it would have taken to flood and overwhelm his body like that.

In regards to his manner of death and weapon of choice, I think a couple of things affected that. He had the tendency to romanticize everything; I think that it was sort of symbolic, so similar to movies. I think that he thought of it as a "cleaner" death and body, and I think that seeing Eric after death was enough in itself to freak him out.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:11 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:19 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:41 pm

seether wrote:
Thank you for that information, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] , including the information and theories about Dylan's last moments.  It was my dad, rather than grandfather, who died by suicide - although his father/my grandfather actually DID die by suicide as well (overdose, in his case).  I'm still mixed about the open casket; I appreciate the lengths that they go to, to honor family wishes.  The head and face was built up - it was more or less a decapitation - and while it was all covered with a silk scarf, they really did a great job of constructing and shaping things.  Hence, why I often wonder about Eric's funeral.

I'll try to find where I read about SI marks - who knows where my brain might have swiped it from, if not any actual medical records.  I'm really curious about the pulmonary edema.  My mom had congestive heart failure, and obviously, it didn't happen within moments, but Dylan's case is obviously different.  I didn't notice that term  when I was scanning the autopsy report.  So what is the possible timeline for that, in this kind of case?  Obviously death was not instant, but I wonder how long it would have taken to flood and overwhelm his body like that.

In regards to his manner of death and weapon of choice, I think a couple of things affected that.  He had the tendency to romanticize everything; I think that it was sort of symbolic, so similar to movies.  I think that he thought of it as a "cleaner" death and body, and I think that seeing Eric after death was enough in itself to freak him out.

Now that I'm looking at Dylan's autopsy again, I see that it says he actually died from the aspiration of blood and subdural hemmhorage, but he did have pulmonary edema as well.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So it looks like he mainly sucked blood into his lungs and in addition to this he had pulmonary edema.  I think it all happened rather quickly and he wasn't really that aware of what was going on after he shot himself. The immediate swelling of the brain, blood loss, and lack of oxygen to the brain would mean that he was most likely unaware and not feeling anything.....but it still took a few minutes for his heart to completely stop.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:02 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:14 pm

Is there a report of Cassie? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], did you find one on hers? Cause if so I was wondering if you know whether she too died instantly or, what're the details on her. Cause hers was brutal aswell, right in the face.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:38 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:43 pm

I think about Steve Curnow a lot. He was found with his hands still folded in his lap. I think he must have went quick. I hope so at least. I think Cassie probably went quick. Poor Lauren whimpered for a while. I feel so terrible for her

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:05 pm

for reference
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:15 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:18 pm

Tomb wrote:
ultraviolencelv wrote:
for reference
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Yes, it's Lauren whose death position looks like she suffered. I would like to see the full reports for all the victims just to see if they died instantly or lingered.

In the 11k, it was mentioned by a few near Lauren that she whimpered for at least a bit. Sad I feel so sad for her.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:24 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:29 pm

I do not believe Lauren suffered more than a few seconds as she had multiple wounds.If she lived a few minutes I believe she was unconscious and felt nothing.She must have went unconscious very fast.

Cassie went unconscious and died very quickly too.I'd say in a matter of seconds.While her family said that they didn't think she looked enough like herself to be shown at the funeral, her Dad was surprised at how well she looked since she was shot at such close range.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:37 pm

seether wrote:
I thought I read in the autopsy reports that Dylan had marks/scars consistent with self-harm?  I can't remember in regards to Eric, but I thought he did, also.

Does anyone know how long records are kept after a suicide, by the coroner's office and/or the police etc.?  I've been interested in getting any from my father's suicide, but since it was in the 1990s, I'm not sure how lucky I'd be.

If I may offer, I'd be glad to answer any questions that I can in regards to Eric's method of suicide, in particular.  My father died in the same manner, .12 gauge, double-barrel, and yes, it really is a truly horrific and virtually guaranteed method of suicide.  I've often wondered about Eric's service, because my grandmother did insist on an open casket viewing, for immediate family, and he was embalmed, so I know it's possible, and it is done at times.  (The face/head area was hidden, so that we were able to view his body from the neck down, and see his hands, at least.  It was absolutely as f-ed up as it sounds.)

I agree with what others said, regarding the weight of brain matter.  You can only collect so much before you have to resort to using a putty knife or wringing out carpeting, book pages, etc.  Luckily, I did NOT see that part, but others did.  I know that my family had to pay for the damages, and I heard what had to be done so that the landlord was able to rent the apartment out again.  I've done years of researching into this area, sort of a way to combat PTSD and desensitize myself as much as possible.  I feel terrible for the Dylan's and Eric's families, to have those photos splashed all over a tabloid magazine, and now the internet.  How devastating that would be.  I can't believe that they were actually published, in print.  Absolutely nothing is sacred.


I'm so sorry for your loss and sorry you had to see your Dad like that.I would not have wanted to see my Dad in such a condition.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:24 am


Cassie Bernall Autopsy:

PATHOLOGIC DIAGNOSES:

1. Shotgun wound of head

A. Skull fractures, massive
B. Cerebral lacerations and contusions
C. Subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage
D. Aspiration of blood

2. Shotgun wound of right hand

OPINION:

Death was due to a shotgun wound of the head.

**Cassie Bernall may have been alive for a few seconds because she did aspirate blood (like Dylan).

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