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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:40 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:04 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:18 am

Tomb wrote:
Unfortunately, for most of the victims, we only have 1-2 pages that's pretty much a synopsis of what killed them. Therefore, without access to the full reports, we can't say for sure how many dies instantly or how many may have lingered. We know no one suffered very long, but as evidenced by Cassie's synopsis, she lived long enough to breathe in blood.

It's likely some didn't feel the pain of being shot at the time. Some of the survivors didn't even realize they were shot until later. Adrenaline accounts for a lot of this. Terror was probably the overwhelming emotion felt by most.

For someone like Cassie though could it have been like she was shot, and the shock of being hit made her gasp and she happened to gasp at the right time to cause her to aspirate some blood? I'd like to think so just so that I would not have to think about suffering.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:53 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:58 am

Tomb wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Tomb wrote:
Unfortunately, for most of the victims, we only have 1-2 pages that's pretty much a synopsis of what killed them. Therefore, without access to the full reports, we can't say for sure how many dies instantly or how many may have lingered. We know no one suffered very long, but as evidenced by Cassie's synopsis, she lived long enough to breathe in blood.

It's likely some didn't feel the pain of being shot at the time. Some of the survivors didn't even realize they were shot until later. Adrenaline accounts for a lot of this. Terror was probably the overwhelming emotion felt by most.

For someone like Cassie though could it have been like she was shot, and the shock of being hit made her gasp and she happened to gasp at the right time to cause her to aspirate some blood?  I'd like to think so just so that I would not have to think about suffering.

Yes, it's possible it was her final breath. Even Eric's autopsy reveals "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains a small amount of hemorrhagic fluid on the right side." We know he dies instantly, so again, he was likely breathing in when the shot decimated his head. He was possibly breathing rapidly as he was preparing to commit suicide.

Rohrbough's autopsy contains the same line as Eric's having "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains hemorrhagic fluid."

Rohrbough's autopsy is heartbreaking at the number of wounds he sustained, but I feel like he died almost instantly, having suffered a through and through shot of the aorta, which will cause you to bleed to death very rapidly. But he also had significant damage from a gunshot wound to the heart, lungs, stomach, liver and a less life threatening gunshot to the lower left leg. The coroner breaks down these as wounds and comes to the conclusion all the damage was done by 3 gunshots, all with 9 mm ammunition. They do a good job of describing the trajectory of each bullet and the damage caused by each one.

Interesting tidbit on Eric I didn't know that. So I guess it could have been her last breath then.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:19 am

Tomb wrote:
Yes, it's possible it was her final breath. Even Eric's autopsy reveals "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains a small amount of hemorrhagic fluid on the right side." We know he dies instantly, so again, he was likely breathing in when the shot decimated his head. He was possibly breathing rapidly as he was preparing to commit suicide.

Rohrbough's autopsy contains the same line as Eric's having "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains hemorrhagic fluid."

Rohrbough's autopsy is heartbreaking at the number of wounds he sustained, but I feel like he died almost instantly, having suffered a through and through shot of the aorta, which will cause you to bleed to death very rapidly. But he also had significant damage from a gunshot wound to the heart, lungs, stomach, liver and a less life threatening gunshot to the lower left leg. The coroner breaks down these as wounds and comes to the conclusion all the damage was done by 3 gunshots, all with 9 mm ammunition. They do a good job of describing the trajectory of each bullet and the damage caused by each one.


Interesting Tomb. Very very excellent.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:47 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:41 pm

I'd like to see more detailed diagrams - not necessarily detailed in wounds, but in position of hands etc., at a high resolution. I doubt it would help solve many questions, but little details could answer random nagging questions that one thinks of.

Does anyone know exactly how long it was, before the two photographs were taken of the bodies of Dylan and Eric in the library? I'm SO curious about that one, like pretty much everyone else. I think that Dylan definitely is not in the position in which he landed, after falling to the floor. I've heard the theory that he was pushed over, or kicked over, by police/SWAT; that's upsetting to think of. I know that they have to stay safe, and might have felt that he was best turned over from a distance, but it makes a difference if he was nudged over, or forcefully kicked over. Just regard for a human body, regardless of the circumstance. It's horrifying to consider how the bodies of so many people were treated (or neglected) after this.

I also think there's weight to the idea that he turned over himself, just before death, whether voluntarily or not - if he was conscious to any degree, I think it would be instinct to turn from anything pressing against his face. Maybe even if he was unconscious; thinking about the reflexes I've seen on ultrasounds and then in person, with my babies, it's amazing what reflexes we have, and how strong they can be.

Then there's a similar idea, that I really haven't seen mentioned by name, but would make sense given that he died in a very sudden and violent manner. Even if he had fallen face first onto Eric's leg, and hadn't moved himself voluntarily or involuntarily while choking, it's very possible IMO that a "cadaveric spasm" would account for his position (just as I imagine it would account for other people, such as one student who was clutching a pencil).

That question is one that puzzles me the most. I'm definitely not well versed in wounds like his, where death might be slower. It appears that he had been on his face, looking at the flow of blood; however, and this could be completely off, it looks as though he didn't spend much time in that position. Would he have such a large amount of blood underneath him, if he were turned over hours after his death? The blood etc. from his face first position seems very minor in comparison, impact injury aside, when you look at the trickle of blood on his face... I'm not sure why it matters, but it just nags at me. I understand that a large amount of blood came from Eric, when moving him, but that's understandable, given that it was a collection of blood and perhaps other fluids that would not have evaporated or dried quickly.

I guess the other thing is their coloring. I wonder, did the newspaper touch up the images, or were they really that color when they were found? I've only seen a few bodies, so again, I'm a noob when it comes to this part, but their color seemed almost absurd when considering things such as blood loss and time from death to discovery. I remember reading about how people appeared to be sleeping after death, and then being shocked the first time I saw a body, because I wasn't expecting the blue/gray on almost white pallor, or other coloring changes (I apologize if I'm too graphic at any point!).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I can't read of Dave Sanders without feeling angry. I've heard and read the excuses, but I just cannot accept any of them. There just is no "reasonable" excuse for him not at least surviving to make it to the hospital. The whole rescue and recovery aspect was bullshit, IMO, but the death of Sanders is another kind of heartbreaking.

What kind of work is it that you do, exactly? I apologize - I haven't made my way around enough to see a description, apart from working with the deceased. Do you have a post or thread that has detail on your job, how you got into your field, experiences, etc? I would love to work in that general area. I actually wouldn't have much trouble, I think, in working with suicide victims, and my mother taught me to follow traditional "laying out" practices as much as we could legally manage with family, but I think I would fail miserably when it came to anyone in a very active stage of decomposition. Mess without stench or additional 'creatures' involved isn't so much of a put off. It was an appalling idea to have my father in an open casket, but I have intense respect and admiration, as well as gratitude, for whoever spent the time and effort to rebuild the general structure and shape of his head and face, especially in profile.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:20 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:44 am

Re: SI. I have this much from Eric's autopsy report - it was saved in one of my notes, and I'm trying to dig through again to find elaboration or other mentions.

"“Present on the lateral aspect of the left upper arm is a small cluster of punctate lacerations and cuts.”"

These sound like wounds consistent with self-injury, and have been discussed at length between myself and some others who are totally not pros when it comes to all things medical, but deserve at least some form of distinction in SI. /dry humor Eric being a righty, that lines up perfectly - that's where the worst of the scarring is for many with SI, the non-dominant arm, as well as the upper thighs. I'm going to dig more when I have more time, to see where it was noted for Dylan - I cannot be losing my mind here!

I'm not sure if it was this thread, but I know many people have wondered about the postmortem dried artifact on an area of Dylan's... personal area, shall we say. I read some really interesting postmortem things unrelated to that, but they did include the information that a male CAN get an erection upon death, and even ejaculate or leak semen. I knew about the urinary and fecal incontinence, and that a female will continue to menstruate (although gravity can have an effect), but this was new to me!
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:06 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Does anyone know exactly how long it was, before the two photographs were taken of the bodies of Dylan and Eric in the library? I'm SO curious about that one, like pretty much everyone else. I think that Dylan definitely is not in the position in which he landed, after falling to the floor. I've heard the theory that he was pushed over, or kicked over, by police/SWAT; that's upsetting to think of. I know that they have to stay safe, and might have felt that he was best turned over from a distance, but it makes a difference if he was nudged over, or forcefully kicked over. Just regard for a human body, regardless of the circumstance. It's horrifying to consider how the bodies of so many people were treated (or neglected) after this.

I also think there's weight to the idea that he turned over himself, just before death, whether voluntarily or not - if he was conscious to any degree, I think it would be instinct to turn from anything pressing against his face. Maybe even if he was unconscious; thinking about the reflexes I've seen on ultrasounds and then in person, with my babies, it's amazing what reflexes we have, and how strong they can be.

Then there's a similar idea, that I really haven't seen mentioned by name, but would make sense given that he died in a very sudden and violent manner. Even if he had fallen face first onto Eric's leg, and hadn't moved himself voluntarily or involuntarily while choking, it's very possible IMO that a "cadaveric spasm" would account for his position (just as I imagine it would account for other people, such as one student who was clutching a pencil).

That question is one that puzzles me the most. I'm definitely not well versed in wounds like his, where death might be slower. It appears that he had been on his face, looking at the flow of blood; however, and this could be completely off, it looks as though he didn't spend much time in that position. Would he have such a large amount of blood underneath him, if he were turned over hours after his death? The blood etc. from his face first position seems very minor in comparison, impact injury aside, when you look at the trickle of blood on his face... I'm not sure why it matters, but it just nags at me. I understand that a large amount of blood came from Eric, when moving him, but that's understandable, given that it was a collection of blood and perhaps other fluids that would not have evaporated or dried quickly.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I appreciate that you brought up the possibility that the result of their autopsies could actually be due to their bodies being moved meaning their positions altered the results and can't really be confirmed as the cause of death. I actually never thought of it that way. Your paragraph is pretty thought provoking.

And do you really consider that Eric had inflicted self harm on himself? Did it mention anything about the cuts being really old scars? I have read a few people saying it wasn't really self infliction but he could've gotten them from making things and the instruments he used could've gotten to him or whatsoever IDK

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:13 am

I'm not entirely sure how bombs are constructed; however, I'm fairly familiar with guns, cleaning and handling, and alterations (never done the last one, just witnessed it many times as a kid). I find it really hard to imagine how one might inflict those wounds by accident. I'm an absolute klutz, and I've worked with tools, machines, kitchenware, you name it - I have many scars, but none of those make it to that part of my arms. There was no mention of healed scars, just cuts etc., so I assume they were recent. My "collection" includes both small puncture marks, but more cuts. I've had voluntary psych care, and in intake reports, they always differentiated between cuts and scars. I'll see what else I can find, but it's something I've wondered about.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:28 am

The position of the cut sounds like the place one would say, contemplate serious self harm and this is coming from an ex cutter too. I mean, that's quite a common spot for one to almost "hit the spot" if they felt close to suicidal but, never really got that far. and ditto on it being on the non-dominant arm too.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:34 am

Personally I think the 'lacerations and cuts' were sustained from his activities that day. I mean they did a lot of damage to that school. I read a report that stated Eric was leaning out of the broken window of one of the entrance doors so he could shoot at the first cop on the scene. Glass cuts so easily and when it shatters it can go everywhere, and they busted out a lot of windows that day.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:34 am

Exactly - I apologize if this is triggering, but that was my "sweet spot" - if I didn't want to cause a lot of risky damage, but I wanted to cut, that was my go-to spot. With the advent of movements like The Body Positive Movement, and The Semicolon Project, a lot more people are daring to go sleeveless, and I'm really amazed by the number of people who have scars in the same place. I totally applaud the sleeveless thing, just at the same time, it's sobering and kind of surreal, to think of how many of us lived through this. I hope that you're feeling better, these days. xoxo
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:35 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Exactly - I apologize if this is triggering, but that was my "sweet spot" - if I didn't want to cause a lot of risky damage, but I wanted to cut, that was my go-to spot.  With the advent of movements like The Body Positive Movement, and The Semicolon Project, a lot more people are daring to go sleeveless, and I'm really amazed by the number of people who have scars in the same place.  I totally applaud the sleeveless thing, just at the same time, it's sobering and kind of surreal, to think of how many of us lived through this.  I hope that you're feeling better, these days. xoxo

That's also plausible - it's just such an exact area. I would expect more extensive lacerations with broken glass etc., and in more areas, but who knows...
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:37 am

The best way to decide is how fresh or old the cuts were and if it seemed repetitive.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:33 am

Yep, and we'll never know. Ugh.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:37 pm

From Dylan's autopsy:
Quote :
"Present on the anterior aspect of the proximal portion of the right lower extremity are several tiny healing reddish-brown abrasions. There is a cluster of three yellow-brown contusions on the anterior-lateral aspect of the right lower leg, varying in size from ¼” to 1". Present on the lateral aspect of the left knee is a cluster of three yellow-brown contusions, varying in size from ¼" to 5/8".

Those definitely sound like SI marks, IME.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:39 pm

There was mention of healing abrasions on his left hand, but I think those are more likely to be from shooting practice.
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:19 am

Sure does sound like self infliction. Although, pretty odd spots.

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:42 pm

Oh gosh, I didn't know that about Lauren (that she was suffering for a few minutes before death). Poor girl. Poor everyone. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:08 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:32 am

Based on the autopsy summaries/reports, aspirated blood was reported only with Cassie Bernall & Dylan Klebold
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:48 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:46 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:08 am

Tomb wrote:
Aortas, hearts, massive head wounds you don't *think* they suffered at all. Likely, they don't, it's science. But, when you have blood in the lungs that means they breathed after being wounded. When it's wounds that take time to exsanguinate, you can deduce that they sustained life long enough to breathe in blood. So, although they were "alive", you don't know what they felt or if they even knew what happened. I hope I'm not confusing, I try not to be, I try to speak English.

I kind of understand. I am by no means an expert in any of this. I took one course on death investigations in college and understood *some* of the jargon, but honestly it just goes over my head. That said, I do find post mortem/autopsy reports interesting to learn about (I didn't mean to sound creepy there, I swear).
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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:26 am

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:34 am

This is one of my favorite threads. So much information! I find it fascinating!

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PostSubject: Re: Done   Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:06 am

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