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 Dylan as Schizotypal

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human_abstract



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PostSubject: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:01 am

Peter Langman, whose articles can be found at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] proposes that Dylan was schizotypal. This mental disorder has surprisingly little info available online other than the same repeated symptoms, which generally are:

1. An odd style of speech in which words are incorrectly used (halcyon, as an example for Dylan).
2. "Magical thinking" in which events are fated to affect an individual, often with paranoid or negative inklings. There's numerous examples of Dylan thinking this way, although I posit that it's fairly normal among teenagers as they're in the developmental stage where 'everything is about them'.
3. Lack of hygiene / wearing the same clothes again and again.
4. Overall, a lack of ability to socialize. This goes further than just shyness, as the affected individual doesn't become comfortable even around family members or their own parents.
5. Going with the previous point, a preference for being alone.

While this disorder is not considered a form of schizophrenia, it is a red flag that somebody is potentially at risk for developing schizophrenia later on. I believe the magical thinking fits in most closely with this.

It's difficult to get a better grasp on the schizotypal personality because other than the above list of symptoms, finding real life examples of this is difficult. Even finding accounts of people with the disorder describing their lives isn't easy to find. I've managed to come across a few, but they weren't particularly enlightening.

Thoughts? I can't really say I believe he had this disorder as being a teenager makes one say, do, and write all sorts of crazy stuff. I remember experiencing a few of these issues myself in the day. If he were a 30 year old man at the time of his writings, then I'd be more prone to believe it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:17 am

While I do agree that posthumous diagnoses are not valid or trustworthy, I must admit that Dylan's writings were very strange - even for somebody his age. I don't think we'll ever know what was going on with his mental state; but having said that, I don't think it's absurd to consider that there was something there. Some sort of disassociative disorder, maybe.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:54 am

I am pretty much Dylan. I was and almost still am half of how he was now, and I know for a fact I'm not schizophrenic or would cause any harm. I'm no doctor or english major to explain it in thorough terms but some of these are perhaps just habits or personality traits. If I went and look back at all the writings and doodles I ever did when I was in school it's close to Dylan's level. It's really nothing much to it than someone who was in love and lonely and thought alot. The only thing he had a problem was his horrid handwriting.
Dylan was just a dreamer.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:25 am

Dylan was shy to an extent. People talk about it all the time, but when he knew someone he was normal. There were even people that knew him that stated he was very loud and talked a lot. I don't think that fits this.

And yes it did seem he was a bit dirty and wore the same clothes but so do a lot of other teens. I think for him it was mostly laziness. And he liked that same shirt.

He did have odd words he used though. A preference for being alone? IDK. He was around Eric a ton and he did spend time around other friends so I don't think that fits either.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:40 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Dylan was shy to an extent. People talk about it all the time, but when he knew someone he was normal. There were even people that knew him that stated he was very loud and talked a lot. I don't think that fits this.

And yes it did seem he was a bit dirty and wore the same clothes but so do a lot of other teens. I think for him it was mostly laziness. And he liked that same shirt.

He did have odd words he used though. A preference for being alone? IDK. He was around Eric a ton and he did spend time around other friends so I don't think that fits either.

Yeah. He used odd words, but that would be perfect if he were say, a poet, a writer, a songwriter. He was just artsy, he was imaginative and he probably wanted to beat around the bush about what he meant in his writings as opposed to being direct like Eric. and I totally get Dylan's type. He had to be comfortable around a person or certain people to finally relax and be himself. He had his episodes. But it's no one of a kind character or something.

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If you're so very good looking
Why do you sleep alone tonight?
I know because tonight is just like any other night
That's why you're on your own tonight
With your triumphs and your charms
While they are in each other's arms
Oh mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
And as I climb into an empty bed
Oh well, enough said

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:04 pm

I believe something was going on mentally with both boys. Dylan, for certain.

The dirtiness, I'm not sure whether it was symptomatic or just teenage boy. I know as a mother, there are times when I have to remind my teenage son that he needs to go take a shower or else he'll be stinky and girls won't like it .

I think it's possible he may have been schizoaffective - depressive type, but without medical records, it's only speculative.

He did tend to use some words inappropriately, but that could be attributed to not knowing their proper use.

Magical thinking could also be attributed to being a teenager. I can remember several times when I believed I was fated for something before I grew up and realized that life was a matter of choice.

I am unsure of his ability to socialize. On the one hand, he was described as shy, but on the other, we have accounts of him being loud and talkative.

I wish we knew whether he experienced any hallucinations, as that could tell us so very much.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:11 pm

We knew for a fact he had his anxiety episodes. That mcdonalds one with his parents really hit me. He wanted to leave real quick right as told by Sue if I'm not wrong? He was so flushed and his self-consciousness hit him real bad I totally got how he felt, because the kids were laughing at him in his duster.
And yet he had an opposite reaction to that where he flaunted how different he was and he liked it. He liked that he scared a couple of people.

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If you're so very good looking
Why do you sleep alone tonight?
I know because tonight is just like any other night
That's why you're on your own tonight
With your triumphs and your charms
While they are in each other's arms
Oh mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
And as I climb into an empty bed
Oh well, enough said

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:18 pm

ultraviolencelv wrote:
We knew for a fact he had his anxiety episodes. That mcdonalds one with his parents really hit me. He wanted to leave real quick right as told by Sue if I'm not wrong? He was so flushed and his self-consciousness hit him real bad I totally got how he felt, because the kids were laughing at him in his duster.
And yet he had an opposite reaction to that where he flaunted how different he was and he liked it. He liked that he scared a couple of people.

yea a paranoia episode where he thought they were laughing at him but in reality they were not. I feel bad for him. His mom seemed to make light of it
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:13 pm

Without him actually being alive and available to 'study', we can never be sure of anything.

A mixture of these symptoms occur with a lot of different mental illnesses. We could find ways to fit the symptoms of many mental illnesses into Dylan's actions/habits if we tried hard enough. As would be the same with most people. With the amount of illnesses that Dylan has been put forward as potentially having (on and off of this forum) it is clear that most (if not all) claims are not true. True or not, we will now never truly know - and that's that.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:13 pm

In Sue's book she mentions that she once spoke with a psychologist who believed that Dylan had avoidant personality disorder.  I can actually see Dylan as being either schizotypal or having avoidant personality.  But sadly we'll just never know exactly what was going on with him.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:58 am

I do agree with everyone who thinks we will never know what Dylan's diagnose really was.

However, I still think that he had rather Cluster C tendencies, I really doubt that he had a schizotypal disorder. This disorder is in the Cluster A group - the "strange ones"' cluster -, and even if these two - schizotypal and avoidant - might show similar symptoms, there are completely different patterns behind each.

A schizotypal person has a tendency to think illogically, to combine things that in reality has nothing to do with each other. A patient with this disorder might give an impression of being "very original" or sometimes the stereotypical "crazy genius", while (s)he just has bizarre attitudes and cannot notice that (s)he does not fit in.
Compared to the avoidants - they are way too self-conscious and they are aware of - or afraid of - "not fitting in".
In addition to this, emotional coldness - being indifferent to both positive and negative emotional stimulations, not being able to form real emotional boundaries - is very typical of schizotypal persons. (While an avoidant can be wounded very easily by negative criticism and tries his/her best to not get into situations where [s]he might be critized or rejected.)

A schizotypal person has very little - or no - interest in interpersonal relations, while an avoidant might have a desire to be more social, but (s)he does not dare to be open, in fear of being rejected or laughed at.

An avoidant person has a different attitude; even if (s)he overestimates dangers or others' reactions, there is some kind of logic in his/her pattern of attitudes.
Even if the facade is rather similar - both are withdrawn and quiet -, the main difference is that a schizotycal does really not care about the environment, while an avoidant is just hiding the emotions (s)he actually feels towards others.
The "being strange" or "being different" image might be totally consciously planned for an avoidant who has good reasons to have a "don't come close to me!" kind of metacommunication.
And, while schizotypals are usually not very emotional - avoidants are, even if they hide their feelings.

This is why I think that Dylan probably did not have schizotypal tendencies, at least not seriously enough to have a full-blown personality disorder. (There are many people who might show one or two typical traits of a personality disorder!) His emotions - the anger and the deep sadness he expressed in his writing - seem to have been too intensive for a schizotypal.

I would rather assume that he had strong avoidant and dependent tendencies, but I see a kind of hidden and childish narcissism too.

Of course, this is just my - absolutely subjective - opinion, and I might be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:39 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I do agree with everyone who thinks we will never know what Dylan's diagnose really was.

However, I still think that he had rather Cluster C tendencies, I really doubt that he had a schizotypal disorder. This disorder is in the Cluster A group - the "strange ones"' cluster -, and even if these two - schizotypal and avoidant - might show similar symptoms, there are completely different patterns behind each.

A schizotypal person has a tendency to think illogically, to combine things that in reality has nothing to do with each other. A patient with this disorder might give an impression of being "very original" or sometimes the stereotypical "crazy genius", while (s)he just has bizarre attitudes and cannot notice that (s)he does not fit in.
Compared to the avoidants - they are way too self-conscious and they are aware of - or afraid of - "not fitting in".
In addition to this, emotional coldness - being indifferent to both positive and negative emotional stimulations, not being able to form real emotional boundaries - is very typical of schizotypal persons. (While an avoidant can be wounded very easily by negative criticism and tries his/her best to not get into situations where [s]he might be critized or rejected.)

A schizotypal person has very little - or no - interest in interpersonal relations, while an avoidant might have a desire to be more social, but (s)he does not dare to be open, in fear of being rejected or laughed at.

An avoidant person has a different attitude; even if (s)he overestimates dangers or others' reactions, there is some kind of logic in his/her pattern of attitudes.
Even if the facade is rather similar - both are withdrawn and quiet -, the main difference is that a schizotycal does really not care about the environment, while an avoidant is just hiding the emotions (s)he actually feels towards others.
The "being strange" or "being different" image might be totally consciously planned for an avoidant who has good reasons to have a "don't come close to me!" kind of metacommunication.
And, while schizotypals are usually not very emotional - avoidants are, even if they hide their feelings.

This is why I think that Dylan probably did not have schizotypal tendencies, at least not seriously enough to have a full-blown personality disorder. (There are many people who might show one or two typical traits of a personality disorder!) His emotions - the anger and the deep sadness he expressed in his writing - seem to have been too intensive for a schizotypal.

I would rather assume that he had strong avoidant and dependent tendencies, but I see a kind of hidden and childish narcissism too.

Of course, this is just my - absolutely subjective - opinion, and I might be wrong.

That is a really good explanation! I agree with a lot of what you said. Especially the part about fitting in. Dylan knew he was an outcast. He wrote about it all the time. And if the schizotypal does not know they are weird and odd then that wouldn't be him at all!

Thanks for this. I do not know much about mental health
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:48 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I like your paragraph, it's very detailed. Thank you for it. It really clears up the differences of the two while they might seem to float in the same boat. I would say he was an avoidant. I mean the part that really got to me was the being consciously different, consciously acting as such as such to put on a shield , cause that was what Dylan was doing.

_________________
If you're so very good looking
Why do you sleep alone tonight?
I know because tonight is just like any other night
That's why you're on your own tonight
With your triumphs and your charms
While they are in each other's arms
Oh mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
And as I climb into an empty bed
Oh well, enough said



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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:08 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: good to see that you both think my post makes some sense, thanks Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:52 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I agree with both of you.

Many of Dylan's actions (as well as Eric's) can be attributed to more than one mental illness. It's interesting to see the varying opinions of what may have been going on.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:59 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Many of Dylan's actions (as well as Eric's) can be attributed to more than one mental illness. It's interesting to see the varying opinions of what may have been going on.

This is very true, comorbidity is a wide-known thing.
Also, it is legally impossible to set up a posthumous diagnose, so we might as well have exciting conversations about guessing.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:51 pm

I'm not a big fan of Langemann's, tbpfh. I think that the schizotypal diagnosis is often used when someone can't really classify someone as schizophrenic and they want to make some sort of half-assed assessment of a person.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:55 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm not a big fan of Langemann's, tbpfh. I think that the schizotypal diagnosis is often used when someone can't really classify someone as schizophrenic and they want to make some sort of half-assed assessment of a person.

HEY I missed your thoughts Thoughtbox! Welcome back!
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:52 am

I feel some of the things Dylan wrote about touched on a state of genuine delusion, but it's hard to pull apart the things he literally believed and what was a metaphor / artistic way of describing things. For instance, describing himself as an otherwordly being (later on as a god) and his peers as zombies. Usually I would assume describing somebody as a zombie to mean they're a listless drone, a mindless member of society, and so forth, but the way Dylan writes gives me a feeling that he believes something more delusional than that.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:58 am

Quote :
Thanks for this.  I do not know much about mental health

In addition to what you said, schizotypals often have trouble distinguishing what is real and what is fantasy; the boundaries between the two worlds are fuzzy and abstract. That's not the same as psychosis or schizophrenia, although these two conditions overlap with Schizotypal Personality Disorder. For example, Schizotypals tend to believe that small events on the news have special meaning to them, while schizophrenics believe they are at the scene of the crime, even when they are not. We often have assure schizophrenics that the hallucinations are not real; I don't recall schizotypals having full-fledged hallucinations, although they do believe in implausible ideas that sound odd to an outsider.

Thanks to Sue's book, it's easier for me to see the bigger picture: the family dynamic that's so important to understanding a patient's mental health condition. I believe Dylan's writings and behavior indicate borderline tendencies, although it's been a while since I've had a chance to read the entire journal and some of my colleagues disagree.

Thanks so much for the post.


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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:10 pm

From my personal knowledge, schizotypal personalities belong way more to a spectrum of behaviors, like people with Aspergers. Some of them might experience hallucinations, some don't and follow a common daily routine. Schizotypals aren't interested that much in social activities, but (unlike avoidants, who simply find difficult interacting because of past letdowns) they choose it deliberately, and Dylan wanted badly to belong to something, but he felt he was incapable of doing so.
I'm not a professional, but I would say that his psychological pain left him so numb that he began to build a "parallel" world where he could let his imagination loose without worrying too much of the consequences. It's like a stream of consciousness, in a surrealist way.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm not a professional, but I would say that his psychological pain left him so numb that he began to build a "parallel" world where he could let his imagination loose without worrying too much of the consequences. It's like a stream of consciousness, in a surrealist way.

Sounds like me.

_________________
If you're so very good looking
Why do you sleep alone tonight?
I know because tonight is just like any other night
That's why you're on your own tonight
With your triumphs and your charms
While they are in each other's arms
Oh mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
And as I climb into an empty bed
Oh well, enough said

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:55 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I'm not a professional, but I would say that his psychological pain left him so numb that he began to build a "parallel" world where he could let his imagination loose without worrying too much of the consequences. It's like a stream of consciousness, in a surrealist way.

I always thought Dylan's journals allowed him to self-mutilate without anyone noticing or suspecting. It's interesting to see the writer, Dylan, inflicting vitriolic abuse onto his cast aside identity, also called Dylan. I like to think this identity dissociation a psychological coping mechanism rather than a creative writing endeavour..
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:48 am

The big question is how seriously he took his writings. If you asked him about it, he might have just dismissed it as some silly shit he made up.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:31 pm

related topic...

anyone read in Jeff Kass' book "Columbine:  A True Crime Story" about Sue Klebold as a young student being the topic of a case report by Dr. Hugh Missildine?  Missildine authored "Your Inner Child of the Past".

Would love to get my hands on a copy of that case report by Mussildine.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:20 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
related topic...

anyone read in Jeff Kass' book "Columbine:  A True Crime Story" about Sue Klebold as a young student being the topic of a case report by Dr. Hugh Missildine?  Missildine authored "Your Inner Child of the Past".

Would love to get my hands on a copy of that case report by Mussildine.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:51 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
related topic...

anyone read in Jeff Kass' book "Columbine:  A True Crime Story" about Sue Klebold as a young student being the topic of a case report by Dr. Hugh Missildine?  Missildine authored "Your Inner Child of the Past".

Would love to get my hands on a copy of that case report by Mussildine.

Yes!  I loved that little bit of insight.  Made her seem very much like Dylan in my eyes.  She had fears and insecurities abound.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan as Schizotypal   Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:32 am

Dylan had an unusual mind, but I cannot say that he was inadequate. He was pretty smart for his age, maybe even too much. Perhaps he's feeling rejected in some creative, philosophical side. Dylan was his way of trying to understand the world and our role in it. Maybe Dylan would be a good philosopher.
I can also say that every person can be supplied, if desired, any psychiatric "diagnosis". Although I have no doubt that Dylan was depressed, which affected his perception. However, his shyness and apparent reticence was a defense mechanism that allowed him to deal with stress. People do react differently to problems. Someone vents their anger on other people, someone hiding their vulnerabilities behind silence.
As for magical thinking, it is to some extent peculiar to all people. Many people believe in bad omens, talismans, rituals, astrology, in the end, believe in God and the afterlife, though none of this is accepted scientific proof. People just believe what they want to believe.

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