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 If the bombs went off ?

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MACHIAVELLI



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PostSubject: If the bombs went off ?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:09 pm

And they killed approximately 500 people,do you think they would get much greater media coverage, be presented differently to the public ,would police conceal more evidence,get a movie,and would your opinon (view) of them change ?
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Nirvana92

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:24 pm

Are we talking hypothetical or in terms of the actual BLEVE bombs they used? Because the bombs they used had zero chance of causing 500 deaths. For the propane tanks they used to blow it would have had to sit on a constantly burning flame for between 5-20 minutes. At one point they managed to ignite some of the starter chemicals they stuffed the bags with which almost immediately set off the fire sprinklers. The bombing aspect was doomed from the second it was conceived.

Honestly though I'm not sure how a succesful bombing would have changed things. Even after years of continued school shootings Columbine is still THE case. From all the media coverage it received you'd think they really did kill 500 students. The fact that it occurred in a school environment made it appear that much more heinous.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:55 pm

Nirvana92 wrote:
Are we talking hypothetical or in terms of the actual BLEVE bombs they used? Because the bombs they used had zero chance of causing 500 deaths. For the propane tanks they used to blow it would have had to sit on a constantly burning flame for between 5-20 minutes. At one point they managed to ignite some of the starter chemicals they stuffed the bags with which almost immediately set off the fire sprinklers. The bombing aspect was doomed from the second it was conceived.

Honestly though I'm not sure how a succesful bombing would have changed things. Even after years of continued school shootings Columbine is still THE case. From all the media coverage it received you'd think they really did kill 500 students. The fact that it occurred in a school environment made it appear that much more heinous.
I never understood why they didn't just ram their cars into the school; they'd have caused more destruction than they did with their supposed 'bombs'.

Kids will be kids though.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:06 pm

Nirvana92 wrote:
Are we talking hypothetical or in terms of the actual BLEVE bombs they used? Because the bombs they used had zero chance of causing 500 deaths. For the propane tanks they used to blow it would have had to sit on a constantly burning flame for between 5-20 minutes. At one point they managed to ignite some of the starter chemicals they stuffed the bags with which almost immediately set off the fire sprinklers. The bombing aspect was doomed from the second it was conceived.
The first time I read about the bombs they used on here long ago, I was really surprised and still am now re-reading this again at how clueless they were. Like I'm surprised they didn't actually look up and confirm whether they're doing it right, what sort of process it would take to blow up. They seemed well-equipped and smart enough to be making them but neither of them thought to make sure what the process was? To ensure it would blow up? I mean, were they actually that clueless or they were wrong but at the time thought the ones they made would 100% blow up.

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:06 am

ultraviolencelv wrote:
Nirvana92 wrote:
Are we talking hypothetical or in terms of the actual BLEVE bombs they used? Because the bombs they used had zero chance of causing 500 deaths. For the propane tanks they used to blow it would have had to sit on a constantly burning flame for between 5-20 minutes. At one point they managed to ignite some of the starter chemicals they stuffed the bags with which almost immediately set off the fire sprinklers. The bombing aspect was doomed from the second it was conceived.
The first time I read about the bombs they used on here long ago, I was really surprised and still am now re-reading this again at how clueless they were. Like I'm surprised they didn't actually look up and confirm whether they're doing it right, what sort of process it would take to blow up. They seemed well-equipped and smart enough to be making them but neither of them thought to make sure what the process was? To ensure it would blow up? I mean, were they actually that clueless or they were wrong but at the time thought the ones they made would 100% blow up.

I think the bombing aspect of their fantasy was just too far out of their range. They had the brain power necessary to build them, but they didnt have the knowledge to make them blow. I'm sure any normal person could build what they believe to be a working bomb if they tried. Mixing fire and propane tanks is a pretty basic concept. A teenage mind wouldn't stop to consider how basic a concept it is, so they wouldn't take into account any safety measures to prevent an explosion.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:22 am

I've also discussed this in another thread, I think something about how much NBK costs....for the bombs, I don't know if they knew this but they probably woudn't be able to afford a much more massive set-up. I always thought they could actually pull a boston marathon bombing and do it the pressure cooker way wouldn't that be possible? In comparison to an open space with the inside of the cafeteria I feel the kind of result it was at the marathon might be harmful enough in the school.

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:54 pm

I'm just thinking out loud here, but they resorted to plan B awfully quickly that it almost seems like they, or at least Dylan, he was smart and this whole thing/the bombs were his "brain child", knew it wouldn't work and they'd have to go into the school and do there killing face to face.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:11 pm

NotYourRobot wrote:
I'm just thinking out loud here, but they resorted to plan B awfully quickly that it almost seems like they, or at least Dylan, he was smart and this whole thing/the bombs were his "brain child", knew it wouldn't work and they'd have to go into the school and do there killing face to face.

Lemme try to understand you...so you're saying that Dylan sorta figured the bombing part of NBK wasn't going to work at all but Dylan just helped along till the end to ensure his suicide, but prior to that Plan B/shooting had to happen first and that incurred pretty quickly?

Or maybe the timing they assumed the bombs would go off didn't go off so they just knew it was dud and they couldn't waste time idling outside with all the gear on them, they had to utilise it.

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:14 pm

Yes that's what I'm thinking, it just seems like a pretty quick turn around after such a huge mistake.and if the ultimate destination wasn't the library, why not enter through the cafeteria just open fire
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:28 pm

The shootings outside had caught the attention of Mr.Sanders so the cafeteria got warned and evacuated pretty quickly. I feel two kids with shotguns vs the amount of people in array in the cafeteria wouldn't really work out...trying to recall the timeline they were outside for abit before Dylan went in by himself to check the cafeteria, went out again, then they both went down the hallway then to the library right?
My timeline knowledge is rusty right now

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:01 pm

No I'm saying don't shoot outside, with no warning just enter and go.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:10 pm


NotYourRobot wrote:
No I'm saying don't shoot outside, with no warning just enter and go.

I don't think it'd work out that well. They might take a couple of people out initially, but keep in mind they didn't really have like machine guns/complete automatic shotguns where @ one go they can take out multiple heads real quick repetitively, and secondly with the amount of people there they will get jumped.

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:25 pm

ultraviolencelv wrote:

NotYourRobot wrote:
No I'm saying don't shoot outside, with no warning just enter and go.

I don't think it'd work out that well. They might take a couple of people out initially, but keep in mind they didn't really have like machine guns/complete automatic shotguns where @ one go they can take out multiple heads real quick repetitively, and secondly with the amount of people there they will get jumped.

Yeah there was no way entering the cafeteria would have been to their advantage. They could have gotten a decent amount of kills, but I assume somebody would have tried to stop them. There's plenty of school shooters who were stopped by students/staff when a gun jams or they have to reload. E/D's main advantage was the fact that they started outside and had pushed most of the schools inhabitants into hiding when they finally entered. They'd have been screwed had a brave jock or two gotten a hold of them.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:47 pm

Very true
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:06 am

For them, I wonder if they thought they had waited long enough. I mean they had a schedule and all but when you are waiting on a pot to boil it seems to take forever. Maybe when they were standing outside waiting for the bombs and they didn't go off right on time it felt like they had waited longer than they actually did. Seconds felt like hours sort of thing.

I never read the anarchist's cookbook so I don't know the contents but I think this was the best bomb they could afford as ultra said.

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:58 am

MACHIAVELLI wrote:
And they killed approximately 500 people,do you think they would get much greater media coverage, be presented differently to the public ,would police conceal more evidence,get a movie,and would your opinon (view) of them change ?

I think the amount of media coverage would have been the same. When it happened, it was all over the national news, and reported in some other countries.

I think the way the they were presented to the public would also be the same in that they were portrayed as monsters from the beginning.

I'm not sure that the police would have been able to conceal as much evidence as they did given that the involvement of the FBI likely would have been much higher than it was.

I'm also not sure they would've gotten a movie. Timothy McVeigh bombed Murrah Federal Building, and to my knowledge, no movie has been made about him, though there has been an episode of Mugshots about him.

I don't think my opinion would change. I see them as neither fully good nor fully evil.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:48 am

Fewer people would have died.

If the bombs had gone off, it would have created a brief fireball like you see in the cafeteria video, and the fire alarm would have immediately sounded and the sprinklers would have put it out.

The kids would have run toward the exits, where Eric would have shot at them (maybe Dylan too, but who knows). But as soon as they got shot at they would have run in the opposite direction, creating a stampede to the east side of the school. In the meantime, everyone else in the school, including the kids in the library, would be moving in an orderly fashion toward the east exits and then running when they saw the stampede.

At the same moment, Neil Gardner would have been pulling into the roundabout and driving directly toward Eric's position in an unmarked car with Eric's back to him. We know for a fact that Gardner would not have hesitated to shoot an active shooter. Eric would have been totally exposed in no man's land. So I think he drops Eric right away.

That leaves Dylan by himself by the west doors and I don't think that scenario lasts long either.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:51 am

lasttrain wrote:
Fewer people would have died.

If the bombs had gone off, it would have created a brief fireball like you see in the cafeteria video, and the fire alarm would have immediately sounded and the sprinklers would have put it out.

The kids would have run toward the exits, where Eric would have shot at them (maybe Dylan too, but who knows). But as soon as they got shot at they would have run in the opposite direction, creating a stampede to the east side of the school. In the meantime, everyone else in the school, including the kids in the library, would be moving in an orderly fashion toward the east exits and then running when they saw the stampede.

At the same moment, Neil Gardner would have been pulling into the roundabout and driving directly toward Eric's position in an unmarked car with Eric's back to him. We know for a fact that Gardner would not have hesitated to shoot an active shooter. Eric would have been totally exposed in no man's land. So I think he drops Eric right away.

That leaves Dylan by himself by the west doors and I don't think that scenario lasts long either.

Are you a psychic?

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:52 am

lasttrain wrote:
Fewer people would have died.

If the bombs had gone off, it would have created a brief fireball like you see in the cafeteria video, and the fire alarm would have immediately sounded and the sprinklers would have put it out.

The kids would have run toward the exits, where Eric would have shot at them (maybe Dylan too, but who knows). But as soon as they got shot at they would have run in the opposite direction, creating a stampede to the east side of the school.  In the meantime, everyone else in the school, including the kids in the library, would be moving in an orderly fashion toward the east exits and then running when they saw the stampede.

At the same moment, Neil Gardner would have been pulling into the roundabout and driving directly toward Eric's position in an unmarked car with Eric's back to him.  We know for a fact that Gardner would not have hesitated to shoot an active shooter.  Eric would have been totally exposed in no man's land.  So I think he drops Eric right away.

That leaves Dylan by himself by the west doors and I don't think that scenario lasts long either.  

If the bombs had gone off, Eric would be at the East doors. Not the West. He moved when things failed
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thank goodness you weren't friends with the boys and were in on the rampage cause you would've helped made a more sensible plan than the boys did.

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:10 am

Lizpuff wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
Fewer people would have died.

If the bombs had gone off, it would have created a brief fireball like you see in the cafeteria video, and the fire alarm would have immediately sounded and the sprinklers would have put it out.

The kids would have run toward the exits, where Eric would have shot at them (maybe Dylan too, but who knows). But as soon as they got shot at they would have run in the opposite direction, creating a stampede to the east side of the school.  In the meantime, everyone else in the school, including the kids in the library, would be moving in an orderly fashion toward the east exits and then running when they saw the stampede.

At the same moment, Neil Gardner would have been pulling into the roundabout and driving directly toward Eric's position in an unmarked car with Eric's back to him.  We know for a fact that Gardner would not have hesitated to shoot an active shooter.  Eric would have been totally exposed in no man's land.  So I think he drops Eric right away.

That leaves Dylan by himself by the west doors and I don't think that scenario lasts long either.  

If the bombs had gone off, Eric would be at the East doors.  Not the West.  He moved when things failed

Really?  My understanding was that Eric was waiting by the south-facing cafeteria exit waiting for the bomb to explode.  By his car.  Is that wrong?

When I refer to the east doors, I mean the east doors.  The ones to the east.  Emptying into the teacher parking lot on Fair Dr., where most of the students actually escaped.  I don't know of any eyewitness statement or journalistic source that places Eric at the east doors, in the teacher parking lot, or anywhere near Fair Dr. in the moments leading up to the shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:51 pm

lasttrain wrote:
Fewer people would have died.

If the bombs had gone off, it would have created a brief fireball like you see in the cafeteria video, and the fire alarm would have immediately sounded and the sprinklers would have put it out.

The kids would have run toward the exits, where Eric would have shot at them (maybe Dylan too, but who knows). But as soon as they got shot at they would have run in the opposite direction, creating a stampede to the east side of the school.  In the meantime, everyone else in the school, including the kids in the library, would be moving in an orderly fashion toward the east exits and then running when they saw the stampede.

At the same moment, Neil Gardner would have been pulling into the roundabout and driving directly toward Eric's position in an unmarked car with Eric's back to him.  We know for a fact that Gardner would not have hesitated to shoot an active shooter.  Eric would have been totally exposed in no man's land.  So I think he drops Eric right away.

That leaves Dylan by himself by the west doors and I don't think that scenario lasts long either.  
How much damage would bombs have done if they did go off? According to what I've read they were powerful enough to bring the whole library down onto the cafeteria. I've been researching bombs and explosives myself and it didn't seem like that was possible as seen in the cafeteria footage. Would propane had been powerful to create such an explosion?

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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:40 pm

lasttrain wrote:
Fewer people would have died.

If the bombs had gone off, it would have created a brief fireball like you see in the cafeteria video, and the fire alarm would have immediately sounded and the sprinklers would have put it out.

The kids would have run toward the exits, where Eric would have shot at them (maybe Dylan too, but who knows). But as soon as they got shot at they would have run in the opposite direction, creating a stampede to the east side of the school.  In the meantime, everyone else in the school, including the kids in the library, would be moving in an orderly fashion toward the east exits and then running when they saw the stampede.

At the same moment, Neil Gardner would have been pulling into the roundabout and driving directly toward Eric's position in an unmarked car with Eric's back to him.  We know for a fact that Gardner would not have hesitated to shoot an active shooter.  Eric would have been totally exposed in no man's land.  So I think he drops Eric right away.

That leaves Dylan by himself by the west doors and I don't think that scenario lasts long either.  

I just want to throw out there that there's some discrepancies between the official timeline and the dispatch logs when it comes to Gardner. The log states the boys were already firing inside the school and that Eric walked outside to engage Gardner. In fact theres about 7 minutes between the predicted detonation time and Gardners arrival. Since the boys seemed to have always intended to enter the school at some point (Dylan mentions charging through the building) I'm not sure the police response would have effected them either way.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:02 am

aquillina wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
Fewer people would have died.

If the bombs had gone off, it would have created a brief fireball like you see in the cafeteria video, and the fire alarm would have immediately sounded and the sprinklers would have put it out.

The kids would have run toward the exits, where Eric would have shot at them (maybe Dylan too, but who knows). But as soon as they got shot at they would have run in the opposite direction, creating a stampede to the east side of the school.  In the meantime, everyone else in the school, including the kids in the library, would be moving in an orderly fashion toward the east exits and then running when they saw the stampede.

At the same moment, Neil Gardner would have been pulling into the roundabout and driving directly toward Eric's position in an unmarked car with Eric's back to him.  We know for a fact that Gardner would not have hesitated to shoot an active shooter.  Eric would have been totally exposed in no man's land.  So I think he drops Eric right away.

That leaves Dylan by himself by the west doors and I don't think that scenario lasts long either.  
How much damage would bombs have done if they did go off? According to what I've read they were powerful enough to bring the whole library down onto the cafeteria. I've been researching bombs and explosives myself and it didn't seem like that was possible as seen in the cafeteria footage. Would propane had been powerful to create such an explosion?

Highly doubtful. Ive seen enough mythbusters to see what an exploding propane tank needs to explode. Unless Eric and Dylan had dismantled the fire suppression system nothing could have ever happened anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: If the bombs went off ?   Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:39 am

If the bombs were strong enough (like they said) the would have surely been injured by debris , fumbeled with their weapons and promptly get shot by police.

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