"bye"

In Sue Klebolds interview with Diane Sawyer back in February, she said Dylan's last words to her was "bye" as he was leaving the house. She said he said it in a mean and sarcastic way, not really acting like himself. Should she of stopped him right there before he left?

Easy to say when you already know everything. There were many cautionary signs that no one paid attention. There are things that do not depend on us, and we shouldn't blame yourself for it.

Love wrote:

Easy to say when you already know everything. There were many cautionary signs that no one paid attention. There are things that do not depend on us, and we shouldn't blame yourself for it.

You can tell in that interview she loved her son very much and she would've done anything for him. In my opinion he didn't deserve a good mother like her.

What was stopping him going to do? He'd just come up with some excuse like "I'm just a little annoyed that I have to get up early to give so and so a ride to bowling class at 6 o'clock in the morning". Dylan and Eric planned, bought supplies for and put together everything they needed to bomb and shoot up the school and their parents never suspected a thing. I seriously doubt his Mom stopping him to see why he had a mean attitude that morning was going to stop it from happening.

bradt93 wrote:

Love wrote:

Easy to say when you already know everything. There were many cautionary signs that no one paid attention. There are things that do not depend on us, and we shouldn't blame yourself for it.

You can tell in that interview she loved her son very much and she would've done anything for him. In my opinion he didn't deserve a good mother like her.

Actually we don't know what their relationships were. Dylan called his parents zombies that wanted to manipulate him.

I always kinda wondered why they didn't kill their parents, too.

I think they deep down they still love their family anyhow.

shades wrote:

I think they deep down they still love their family anyhow.

I think they loved their family and didn't want to kill them. It seemed that people they knew, they weren't able to kill such as John Savage. With all the planning they did for April 20, if they wanted to kill their parents, they would have planned it. But they never planned on killing their parents. Their main focus was to bomb the school and shoot those trying to escape. It might have been more humane if they had killed their parents. Instead they left them to deal with the aftermath of the massacre.

spinvault wrote:

I think they loved their family and didn't want to kill them. It seemed that people they knew, they weren't able to kill such as John Savage. With all the planning they did for April 20, if they wanted to kill their parents, they would have planned it. But they never planned on killing their parents. Their main focus was to bomb the school and shoot those trying to escape. It might have been more humane if they had killed their parents. Instead they left them to deal with the aftermath of the massacre.

You have a very good point [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. They loved them, but they let them suffer with the aftermath.
I'm not sure what to make of the fact they didn't kill anyone they knew or liked when faced with that day except that it made it look like a targeted, revenge killing in the beginning. I mean they still took innocent people out to prove their point not bullies, but when they saw a friend as you said John they let him go.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] very interesting comments and the more I think about it, the more I completely agree! If E & D wanted to kill their parents/family, it would've been planned out like everything else. I sometimes wonder if E & D's parents/family almost wish they killed them first. I couldn't imagine living the life they've lived!!

TaylorsMom wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] very interesting comments and the more I think about it, the more I completely agree!  If E & D wanted to kill their parents/family, it would've been planned out like everything else.  I sometimes wonder if E & D's parents/family almost wish they killed them first.  I couldn't imagine living the life they've lived!!

I read somewhere (probably Sue's book) that she and her husband both said that they wished Dylan would have killed them first.

From Sue's Book, A Mother's Reckoning:


Of course, I understood why people did not want Dylan and Eric to be mourned or memorialized, but this unchallenged display of anger frightened us. Within a few days of his arrival, my brother accepted an offer to sleep at a neighbor’s house. He urged us to leave with him. “You’re in such a state of shock, you can’t see how dangerous this is.”

We were in shock, but the bigger issue was that we just didn’t care. One particularly bad night, Tom said wearily, “I wish he’d killed us, too.” It was a thought we would have on many occasions over the years.


And,


It’s funny I don’t have more to say about surviving cancer; I certainly didn’t feel detached or blasé about it when it was happening. It was treated, and I moved on with gratitude. But after I recovered, I realized I’d been wrong in the journal entry that begins this chapter: I did not want to die.

Tom would often say he wished Dylan had killed us too, or that we’d never been born at all. I prayed I’d pass away in my sleep, a quiet deliverance from the agony of waking up and realizing it hadn’t all been a terrible nightmare. Sitting in traffic, I’d fantasize about being given the opportunity to trade my life for the people who had died at the school, or being presented with the chance to sacrifice myself to save a large group. Dying would be a relief, I thought, and dying to save others would give my miserable life purpose.

Surviving breast cancer helped me to see (as perhaps we all should) that my life was a gift. My work, going forward, would be to find a way to honor that gift.

None of this should've happened. I hope all the victims are finally in peace. I hope in the future we have background checks for the mentally ill so they can't buy a gun and an aggressive ant-bullying program.

Unforunately, it has happened many times:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

They love their parents but it proves for the both of them it's harder to take their families' lives. They loved them but they were sorry they had to leave them to deal. Infact I'm pretty sure Eric made an apology such as that on the basement tapes. He knew what he was doing and he was sorry.

shades wrote:

They love their parents but it proves for the both of them it's harder to take their families' lives. They loved them but they were sorry they had to leave them to deal. Infact I'm pretty sure Eric made an apology such as that on the basement tapes. He knew what he was doing and he was sorry.

Exactly, they left them with the fallout afterwards, but they didn't care. It also shows how selfish they were.

I am pretty darn sure Dylan could really care less what he left behind. I think he did love his parents sure but I think his hatred of his life and all other things was stronger than that love. I don't think it was his intent to hurt them but I am sure he didn't give it a passing thought.

do you think eric cared a little more? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

shades wrote:

do you think eric cared a little more? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think he did. He obv still did what he did no matter how he felt about his parents but him taking the time to mention them in the BT stands out to me. I don't think Eric looked down on life as much as Dylan did. I do think he saw the light in the tunnel at times so to speak so I do think Eric knew he would miss things while Dylan didn't care as much and just wanted out

Lizpuff wrote:

shades wrote:

do you think eric cared a little more? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think he did.  He obv still did what he did no matter how he felt about his parents but him taking the time to mention them in the BT stands out to me.  I don't think Eric looked down on life as much as Dylan did.  I do think he saw the light in the tunnel at times so to speak so I do think Eric knew he would miss things while Dylan didn't care as much and just wanted out

Why didn't Sue or the Harris's put their kids in an mental institution so they could get help? I know Sue said from her interview, she didn't see the signs, but that paper Dylan wrote and was given to the school counselor. I mean come on that paper he wrote, you could tell he was crying for help. I don't get why the counselor didn't see anything wrong with it, either he was an idiot or wasn't thinking.

bradt93 wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

shades wrote:

do you think eric cared a little more? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think he did.  He obv still did what he did no matter how he felt about his parents but him taking the time to mention them in the BT stands out to me.  I don't think Eric looked down on life as much as Dylan did.  I do think he saw the light in the tunnel at times so to speak so I do think Eric knew he would miss things while Dylan didn't care as much and just wanted out

Why didn't Sue or the Harris's put their kids in an mental institution so they could get help? I know Sue said from her interview, she didn't see the signs, but that paper Dylan wrote and was given to the school counselor. I mean come on that paper he wrote, you could tell he was crying for help. I don't get why the counselor didn't see anything wrong with it, either he was an idiot or wasn't thinking.

The paper itself is up for a bit of debate. Sue says she asked Dylan to see it but he never showed her and she forgot. The teacher said she would show it to a counselor and call the Klebolds if there were any issues but there is debate as to whether or not she actually did this. There were quite a few signs that Dylan threw out there showing he needed some help, but unfortunately no one put 2 and 2 together and he slipped thru the cracks. Just so happens he killed others and not just himself. I don't think either of them needed an "institution" persay but they did need help.

I think the Harris's did a disservice for Eric when they moved out of Michigan, because apparently from what I heard, Eric liked his old school there. I know his dad Wayne was in the army and had to move a lot, but I think that could've affected him emotionally.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I was a military brat, too, and while it's not always fun to have to start over constantly, it doesn't necessarily cause harm, either. Plus Eric was in Colorado from middle school onward. He had a nice, wealthy and stable life with plenty of friends. He was just a spoiled, malicious jerk who hated life and decided to take as many people out with him as he could.

While Eric and Dylan are indeed spoilt jerks who were ungrateful, in Eric's case, who's to say all the rejection, failed effort and constant breaking off and moving he felt/went through didn't upset him and take a toll on him. Many times I know exactly what what he goes through. He probably couldn't understand why no one treasured him or wanted to be around him. The few good people who meant something to him, he had to move away from or weren't near him (like the Jen girl from LSU he talked to online). I think of the two Eric still had love for his family before he did the massacre. He still had a little of feelings in him. Dylan was flat out of it.

Moving nearly always upsets kids. But it doesn't generally turn them into homicidal maniacs.

As for no-one treasuring him, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. He had nothing but good things to say about his parents who clearly loved him. He adored his older brother. And Susan clearly liked him a lot. Then there were the friends he moved away from that he kept in touch with over email. He might not have been popular but he was loved.

There was something like 29 days left in the school year. Columbine would have been behind him. He could've dated Susan or gone to see his friends or enrolled in university. But no. He decided humanity didn't deserve this Earth and so decided to kill as many of us that he could.

We need to remember that there's our perspective and then there's his. I understand because I think those are what HE sees then eventually feels. He can't understand why people don't want to be around him but he doesn't know why, he thinks he tries but we don't know how hard. And we were not in his mental state, all those that he had went through could easily be the last straw FOR HIM and he couldn't take it anymore.

I could easily be blinded by the things I go through and therefore put a conclusion to how I see human beings and this world. But I also have the capability to eventually take a step back and assess the thing as a whole. Eric seemed like someone who's determined to see it through his way.

He waited and planned NBK for a year. That's not a moment of snapping, or a final straw, that's a year of premeditation. That showed patience and determinatIon. And he got off on doing it. He had plenty of time to change his mind or find another way to cope, the way the rest of us do. But he wanted to play God and he did.

He planned it indeed and then he waited for a reason to go through with it. He might've hoped for a reason to back out but there wasn't one. He couldn't even get caught.

How do we know he waited for a reason to go through with it?

Cause there were multiple events of seeking to get caught or finding a reason to back out somehow, when there was no follow up on all the red flags like his dad finding the pipe bombs and things didn't get better for him, with all the preparation set and Dylan on his side he just went ahead and did 4/20.

Justjenna wrote:

Moving nearly always upsets kids. But it doesn't generally turn them into homicidal maniacs.

As for no-one treasuring him, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. He had nothing but good things to say about his parents who clearly loved him. He adored his older brother. And Susan clearly liked him a lot. Then there were the friends he moved away from that he kept in touch with over email. He might not have been popular but he was loved.

There was something like 29 days left in the school year. Columbine would have been behind him. He could've dated Susan or gone to see his friends or enrolled in university. But no. He decided humanity didn't deserve this Earth and so decided to kill as many of us that he could.

I think a lot of times when looking into this case we forget that the people involved were teenagers. I think we forget the mentality of someone at that age and how minor issues that would be considered insignificant to an adult can be devastating to a teenager. I know I've rehashed this is other threads but it's easy to look back with an adult's perspective and life experience and say "your problems aren't even THAT bad..." Sometimes I look back at the things that I thought were important at that age and wonder why I cared so much. 

E&D were also at an age where you're trying to be more independent from your parents and it's easy to overlook their love and resent when they try to show it (like getting angry when they try to help you with something you want to do yourself or being embarrassed if they tell you they love you in public haha).

I believe both e&d were overly sensitive kids. I don't think Eric dealt with loss very well, so the moving and losing friends and having to readjust over and over again probably did mess him up. Some kids adapt to that better than others - I have relatives whose parents were in the military and moved around a lot, and one sibling adjusted well and was unaffected by it while the other went into a deep depression and had to be medicated and eventually homeschooled. 

I don't think Eric or Dylan would've become homicidal maniacs if they each didn't have an accomplice who shared their anger and hatred. They encouraged and fed off each other and don't think either would've acted alone.

Kiwik wrote:

Justjenna wrote:

Moving nearly always upsets kids. But it doesn't generally turn them into homicidal maniacs.

As for no-one treasuring him, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. He had nothing but good things to say about his parents who clearly loved him. He adored his older brother. And Susan clearly liked him a lot. Then there were the friends he moved away from that he kept in touch with over email. He might not have been popular but he was loved.

There was something like 29 days left in the school year. Columbine would have been behind him. He could've dated Susan or gone to see his friends or enrolled in university. But no. He decided humanity didn't deserve this Earth and so decided to kill as many of us that he could.

I think a lot of times when looking into this case we forget that the people involved were teenagers. I think we forget the mentality of someone at that age and how minor issues that would be considered insignificant to an adult can be devastating to a teenager. I know I've rehashed this is other threads but it's easy to look back with an adult's perspective and life experience and say "your problems aren't even THAT bad..." Sometimes I look back at the things that I thought were important at that age and wonder why I cared so much. 

E&D were also at an age where you're trying to be more independent from your parents and it's easy to overlook their love and resent when they try to show it (like getting angry when they try to help you with something you want to do yourself or being embarrassed if they tell you they love you in public haha).

I believe both e&d were overly sensitive kids. I don't think Eric dealt with loss very well, so the moving and losing friends and having to readjust over and over again probably did mess him up. Some kids adapt to that better than others - I have relatives whose parents were in the military and moved around a lot, and one sibling adjusted well and was unaffected by it while the other went into a deep depression and had to be medicated and eventually homeschooled. 

I don't think Eric or Dylan would've become homicidal maniacs if they each didn't have an accomplice who shared their anger and hatred. They encouraged and fed off each other and don't think either would've acted alone.

I agree very much with what you said. I myself have anxiety and depression. I have had people look at me and my life/problems and go something like "why the hell are you upset about that? it isn't a big deal". But to me it is a huge deal. Moving around and being an army brat may not be a big deal to some but obv for Eric it was a big deal. Likewise Dylan who was raised in one place with a nice home and seemingly loving family who from outward perspective were "perfect" could still find things to hate about his life.

I hope you all understand from my point of view why I don't like Evan Todd. He said in interview they were "rejects" and "of course they are going to get bullied when you "horns sticking out of your hat" or something to that effect he said. He was trying to make them leave the school, now what right did him and the other bullies to do that? I really wish people would to get to know each other instead of judging everyone instead of only being friends with people on the football team or basketball team. It seemed back then you had to be an athlete to be popular and that is what makes me upset.

bradt93 wrote:

bradt93 wrote:

I hope you all understand from my point of view why I don't like Evan Todd. He said in interview they were "rejects" and "of course they are going to get bullied when you have "horns sticking out of your hat" or something to that effect he said. He was trying to make them leave the school, now what right did he and the other bullies have to do that? I really wish people would to get to know each other instead of judging everyone instead of only being friends with people on the football team or basketball team. It seemed back then you had to be an athlete to be popular and that is what makes me upset.

I don't see your point of view and I disagree with you about this.

Evan Todd was a young teenager when this shooting happened. He was lashing out at two people who had inflicted earth-shattering trauma on him.

The idea that now, almost twenty years later, we should be publicly villainizing him because he said negative things about people who tortured and killed his classmates in front of him--that is hard proposition to view with any credibility.

We will have to disagree then, no one has a right to bully anyone and noone has a right to try to force them to leave a school, just because they are as "cool" as they are.

I think back to 1999. This was not something that saturated the media in the way it does now. This was a whole new ballgame for all involved, top to bottom. It seems like every time you turn on the news now, there's another mass shooting. Not the case back then. I don't think a parent then would have dreamed that this massacre was being plotted and planned by their children. Sure, maybe they thought their prodigy had issues of some sort, but not this. Hindsight really is 20/20 and so is the benefit of knowing future massacres.

bradt93 wrote:

We will have to disagree then, no one has a right to bully anyone and noone has a right to try to force them to leave a school, just because they are as "cool" as they are.

Nobody said that the bullying happened because they have the right to. They don't. But it still happens,

And when it happens one decides what they're gonna do about it.

And that latter sentence about being forced to leave school cause they aren't cool is as stupid as it sounds. So just ignore it. This is high school.

Did the parents ever say what Dylan and Eric were like before they first went to Columbine? Did they have mental issues way before they went to that school?

bradt93 wrote:

Did the parents ever say what Dylan and Eric were like before they first went to Columbine? Did they have mental issues way before they went to that school?

Sue of course has spoken way more about Dylan. She describes him as sensitive and shy. He was smart and she also described him as malleable. She said at one point that you could convince him to change his mind on topics pretty easily.

Less has been said about Eric, but his friends from before Colorado state he was a bit preppy, but he was nice and not anything like the "colorado" Eric. He seems to have been loyal to those he called friends.

bradt93 wrote:

We will have to disagree then, no one has a right to bully anyone and noone has a right to try to force them to leave a school, just because they are as "cool" as they are.

Evan Todd was several years younger than Eric and Dylan. He never bullied Eric and Dylan and never tried to force them to leave the school. We know this because when they saw him they did not recognize him and they asked him if he was a jock. Ergo, they had never seen him before and he had not bullied them.

In my opinion, you should stop slandering Evan Todd, who is a real person, on this message board.

Lizpuff wrote:

Sue of course has spoken way more about Dylan.  She describes him as sensitive and shy.  He was smart and she also described him as malleable.  She said at one point that you could convince him to change his mind on topics pretty easily.

Sue as if hinting at the fact that Dylan could easily be influenced by Eric. But she says nothing about the influence of Dylan on the Eric.

Love wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Sue of course has spoken way more about Dylan.  She describes him as sensitive and shy.  He was smart and she also described him as malleable.  She said at one point that you could convince him to change his mind on topics pretty easily.

Sue as if hinting at the fact that Dylan could easily be influenced by Eric. But she says nothing about the influence of Dylan on the Eric.

That could also be true. We just don't know, but I think they were suffering from some type of disorder, but I don't know what though. I think that's the greatest mystery of all, why they did it and what type of disorders they were suffering from? For example, why would Eric tell Brooks Brown " I like you, go home"?

I don't see Eric as spoiled at all, nor Dylan either, at least not by their parents.
Their parents seemed to take steps to avoid that.

I have come to hate what both did but I see them as lonely,depressed ,mixed up kids who had a powerful rage they didn't know how to deal with or let go of.
You can say that's just making excuses for them and that's one way of looking at it but simply demonizing them misses a huge part of the picture imo.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't see Eric as spoiled at all, nor Dylan either, at least not by their parents.
Their parents seemed to take steps to avoid that.

I have come to hate what both did but I see them as lonely,depressed ,mixed up kids who had a powerful rage they didn't know how to deal with or let go of.
You can say that's just making excuses for them and that's one way of looking at it but simply demonizing them misses a huge part of the picture imo.

privileged vs spoiled for sure.

bradt93 wrote:

That could also be true. We just don't know, but I think they were suffering from some type of disorder, but I don't know what though. I think that's the greatest mystery of all, why they did it and what type of disorders they were suffering from? For example, why would Eric tell Brooks Brown " I like you, go home"?

Disorder or no, shooting someone you know is much more emotionally fraught than shooting strangers. For people with personality disorders - which is what some forensic psychs have suggested for Eric and Dylan - these people know that killing people is wrong, but for some types of personality disorders (though I think Eric probably didn't even have a full blown personality disorder, I think he demonstrated many characteristics of the dark quadrant of subclinical personality traits - if you google this term or "dark triad of personality" there'll be articles about it.) wanting power over others is part of the psychopathology. Furthermore, Eric and Dylan weren't suffering from a psychosis of any kind. They planned, and premeditated their mass murder-suicide for a significant amount of time. It meets both the mens rea and actus rea components required for a conviction of murder in a court - in that, they planned the act, and they carried it out.

When you ask why Eric let Brooks go, or why Dylan let John Savage go, you have to consider the psychology of guns. They are a weapon of distance. You have to get right in someone's face to stab them and kill them. You have to look your victim in the eye while you're murdering them and Eric and Dylan in reality, probably didn't have the stomach for that. Which is probably why they didn't use the knives they armed themselves with. Whereas, with guns you can kill people in a few seconds - and a lot of them. You can shoot someone point blank with a gun and not even have to look them in the face. It's distanced killing.

It''s distance killing until you get up close and personal and shoot someone at "point blank" range.

Eric/Dylan were pretty close to some of the victims they shot in the library.

sororityalpha wrote:

It''s distance killing until you get up close and personal and shoot someone at "point blank" range.

Eric/Dylan were pretty close to some of the victims they shot in the library.

Well, I heard a rumor they sort of felt remorse at the end, like a what WTH moment? LOL.