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 Patti Nielson Procedure

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PostSubject: Patti Nielson Procedure   Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:16 am

I think maybe she should tell the kids to try and run out of the library , when she went to main entrance she only saw eric , dylan was out of view i think .

So if she saw only eric then why not to try to alert the kids to run out of the library instead of telling them to stay put .

I think it was a bad attitude and lead to more kids being shoot at .

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:12 am

I was never happy with her nor like her but in an old thread on here discussing this, I'm inclined to agree that on that day as it happened, Patti wouldn't have known the right thing to do or the correct instructions. Perhaps she felt staying put in the library was the best thing to do.

Who would have known the boys decided to go in there?

I do think though that the idea to stay under the tables in open view of everyone inclusive of the boys is kinda dumb I mean they basically presented themselves like sitting ducks. But, again, Patti wouldn't have known. and could some of the kids ran out of their own accord? Of course. But in a state of panic and staying with friends/being instructed by Patti, they must've felt it was better to comply.

I still can't stand Patti to save my life though. edit: No....pun intended....

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:12 am

Even till this day I still question Patti Nielson on how she handled the situation. But who could blame her? She just got glass embedded into her shoulder and there are two gun totting cahoots running around shooting randomly. I would probably be freaking out and screaming my lungs out too.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:29 pm

Honestly I find people saying she chose a 'dumb' way to solve the problem are really cringey. As long as you haven't been in a life and death situation especially not knowing where the aggressor might be or where they might go, you can't really up and say "yeah that was a stupid move". I'm sure plenty of us have been in very stressful situations where our reactions didn't seem quite logical, so try to remember that moment and equate that with what happened in Patti's mind.

Love it or not, the flight or fight reaction is still within all of us , no matter how much we like to think we're a superhero who is perfectly calm and logical when there are loud sounds and things breaking/exploding and people dying around us.
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:42 pm

But doesn't one think that the action of hiding under an open table protects nothing? Infact it makes it easier to identity people one by one as a perpetrator.

And yes I know I know in the state of panic she couldn't think of clever ideas and also each kid had the freedom to escape at their own accord if they wanted to.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:46 pm

And how about the operator on the phone? Did Patti ask what should I do? I know she probably said stay put or whatever but did she enquire with her about the closest exists and which way out could possibly be safe, other initiatives or whatever. As an operator she probably had more training and a responsibility to think fast, that was HER job if I'm not blaming Patti.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:40 am

I know you won't like my opinion but here it is :

This kinda feels like a witch hunt in regards to why didn't people hide in better places or why operators didn't give better advice. It reminds me of (if I remember correctly) Sue's book where her lawyer said that since the primary recipients of the blame (E+D) were not there to take the blows, the parents or whoever seemed fit was next and this feels somewhat the same. It's a natural thing to do, but intelligence thankfully dictates that we should reason beyond our instincts which ,in this case, it's to not point the finger at others.

There are plenty of cases where in a crisis like that operators advise people to remain where they are and find the safest spot to hide. It worked out for all the kids who sat in classrooms while E and D passes right by and looked inside but didn't shoot them. If we're going to find blame in a, imo, irrational way, I believe we should throw our hands in the air and blame ALL the terrified kids who chose to hide in the kitchen, classrooms, closets etc.

Fact of the matter is, the operator most likely didn't know the layout of the school, how far exactly the shooters where or their intentions. There were about 50 or something sitting ducks in the library, most of which didn't hide in any good places yet they were spared out of sheer luck. If we're going to follow the narrative from above, we should start discussing about how 'dumb' those kids where for not hiding well, but had the luck not to be killed.

Also, as far as I know, before Patti made the phone call , she didn't have any clue where they might go. After they came near the library it was impossible to just up and run and risk being shot. You have loud gun noises, ringing alarms and people running and screaming and you honestly believe that in that chaos you have time to look around and find a safe spot? Nevermind the fact that she was a teacher and the pressure to keep the kids safe was in her hands and beyond any doubt, she knew that in the back of her mind.

I'd really enjoy putting victim blamers in a highly stressful situation , where their and the lives of all around them depend on their decision and see how well they do, operator or teacher or whatever position they might be assigned to. Most people would probably be traumatized by a simple simulation. This discussion reminds me, in a way, of those people who say "oh this would never happen to me" and yet in a dire situation they'd end up doing the exact things they blame others of.

Imo , there's no way around this. You do not have trained officers making decisions, but a scared civilian who's never been in such a situation before and an operator who most likely followed protocol.

PS: I had a funny thing happen about 2 days ago. We had a 5.3 earthquake and it was just me and my flatmate. As it began , his first reaction was to bolt out the door which, as people know, it's a very silly things to do as the stairs in a block are likely to collapse first. But his gut reaction was what he listened to and risked his life for something that, in that moment of panic, seemed very logical. It happens every day, and scolding people for doing silly things in a panic is not productive.
In a situation like that you simply stay in the house/flat, under the door and wait it out which is what I did , along with staring and talking to the cat ;^)
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:07 am

You are right, I don't like the opinion. Everything that happened that day was flawed.
And I'm not calling the kids dumb here, I'm saying they have no choice but to listen to a teacher's orders there.

Besides I already said above that no one would have known that the boys were going to enter there and rational decisions are hard to make during a state of panic. I still believe the operator could have butt in and gave better orders than let Patti ramble half the time during the call almost talking about unnecessary things.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:11 am

By the way I don't really appreciate being told I'm putting blame irrationally, Nor the implication that I am victim blaming, it should be no mystery why Patti got hate and had been taking the L for years. I brought up her and the Operator's actions that day not what the kids chose to do which is rather under miss patti's orders.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:05 am

Actually, the operator asked Patti if she would get up from her hiding spot and walk over to the Library doors that Dylan and Eric were right outside of shooting people and asked her to close the Library doors. Patti repeatedly said that the shooter was right outside the doors and the operator said again "can you close the doors" to which Patti said that she had 3 kids and was afraid to go near the doors because the shooter was right there at the doors shooting people. So yea, that is the operate that Patti was dealing with.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:42 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I know you won't like my opinion but here it is :

This kinda feels like a witch hunt in regards to why didn't people hide in better places or why operators didn't give better advice. It reminds me of (if I remember correctly) Sue's book where her lawyer said that since the primary recipients of the blame (E+D) were not there to take the blows, the parents or whoever seemed fit was next and this feels somewhat the same. It's a natural thing to do, but intelligence thankfully dictates that we should reason beyond our instincts which ,in this case, it's to not point the finger at others.

There are plenty of cases where in a crisis like that operators advise people to remain where they are and find the safest spot to hide. It worked out for all the kids who sat in classrooms while E and D passes right by and looked inside but didn't shoot them. If we're going to find blame in a, imo, irrational way, I believe we should throw our hands in the air and blame ALL the terrified kids who chose to hide in the kitchen, classrooms, closets etc.  

Fact of the matter is, the operator most likely didn't know the layout of the school, how far exactly the shooters where or their intentions. There were about 50 or something sitting ducks in the library, most of which didn't hide in any good places yet they were spared out of sheer luck. If we're going to follow the narrative from above, we should start discussing about how 'dumb' those kids where for not hiding well, but had the luck not to be killed.

Also, as far as I know, before Patti made the phone call , she didn't have any clue where they might go. After they came near the library it was impossible to just up and run and risk being shot. You have loud gun noises, ringing alarms and people running and screaming and you honestly believe that in that chaos you have time to look around and find a safe spot? Nevermind the fact that she was a teacher and the pressure to keep the kids safe was in her hands and beyond any doubt, she knew that in the back of her mind.

I'd really enjoy putting victim blamers in a highly stressful situation , where their and the lives of all around them depend on their decision and see how well they do, operator or teacher or whatever position they might be assigned to. Most people would probably be traumatized by a simple simulation. This discussion reminds me, in a way, of those people who say "oh this would never happen to me" and yet in a dire situation they'd end up doing the exact things they blame others of.

Imo , there's no way around this. You do not have trained officers making decisions, but a scared civilian who's never been in such a situation before and an operator who most likely followed protocol.

PS: I had a funny thing happen about 2 days ago. We had a 5.3 earthquake and it was just me and my flatmate. As it began , his first reaction was to bolt out the door which, as people know, it's a very silly things to do as the stairs in a block are likely to collapse first. But his gut reaction was what he listened to and risked his life for something that, in that moment of panic, seemed very logical. It happens every day, and scolding people for doing silly things in a panic is not productive.
In a situation like that you simply stay in the house/flat, under the door and wait it out which is what I did , along with staring and talking to the cat ;^)

I agree with what you are saying.
Patti saw the boys outside the west doors. She knew they were heading inside. If you look at a layout of the school, from the west doors to the library is not far. If she HAD taken the 50 kids and ushered them out into the hall and told them to run, yea some would have gotten away but then Eric and Dylan would have had 50 kids out in the open to shoot at. Grim thought but true. Patti had no way of knowing what the boys were there for or where they were going to go....
If they had some kind of actual target she may not have ever thought they would come to the library.
Add to all that she was scared and panicking...yea she was the "adult" in the situation but she was just as terrified as anyone else and didn't want to die herself. She did the best she could with what very little time there was.

And lets face it....if she did somehow shut and lock the doors....Eric and Dylan could have kicked them open anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:55 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

And lets face it....if she did somehow shut and lock the doors....Eric and Dylan could have kicked them open anyway.
They could have done the exact same thing to any of the classrooms yet they still didn't. If the doors were shut and locked they could have by a slight chance have passed over the library. But I guess we'll never know.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:03 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
They could have done the exact same thing to any of the classrooms yet they still didn't. If the doors were shut and locked they could have by a slight chance have passed over the library. But I guess we'll never know.
Exactly. So far for the locked doors, they maybe have tried  to force open one or two of them but then they just leave. It's not to my knowledge of any adamant breaking and entering a locked/barricaded premise. Maybe they went into the library because there's actually a literal open welcome for them. They were improvising their moves. We will never know how much different it would be if the library doors were closed and the time before they went in, Patti and the kids could have orchestrated something completely different.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

And lets face it....if she did somehow shut and lock the doors....Eric and Dylan could have kicked them open anyway.
They could have done the exact same thing to any of the classrooms yet they still didn't. If the doors were shut and locked they could have by a slight chance have passed over the library. But I guess we'll never know.

The only reason I put that there is of course the unknown. They were on a high when they entered the school before the library. It was only after they left the library that they appeared to be downtrodden. If they entered and found the library locked still on that high note I think it is a likely scenario they could have tried to enter.

Sitting ducks as it were. Obv that didn't happen so no way of knowing anything but being that they were still looking for body count I think it is as likely as anything else that they may have tried to enter
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:50 pm

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Pages 000324-000325:

[Noticing Dylan shooting outside] At that point, Peggy stated that Rich yells that this is, in fact, real and that everybody should get down. Peggy stated that she lost sight of Rich at that point, due to the fact chat the whole entire library erupted in panic.

IO asked Peggy what she specifically did and she said that her reaction was to do what they do during a fire alarm drill. IO asked her if she could recall the fire alarm at this point and she stated that she cannot recall the alarm going off at this point. Peggy reported that in her mind, she recalled that she was telling the kids to get out, same as they would for a fire drill. She showed IO on the diagram that the normal method of exit from the library would be to leave out the main hallway and then out the northwest door, or to exit the rear exit door of the library.

She also reported that she had previously observed the rear library door propped open, but she was unclear as to why it had been propped open.

Peggy stated that as she made her way through the panic in the library, yelling at kids to get cut, she stated "that's when I saw Dave." IO asked her who she was speaking about and she stated that she saw Dave Sanders running down the main hallway that adjoins the library, motioning with his hands to "get back." She reported to this IO, pursuant to questions, that she believed Dave was running in a northwest direction through the hallway, and waving his hands towards the library as if telling people to stay in the library. Peggy stated that it was at that point, she saw and smelled the smoke in the hallway, and began hearing gunshots and, what she described as explosions. IO asked her if she observed Dave Sanders to be injured at that time and she stated, not that she recalled.

Peggy stated that she went back into the library, as the hallway was full of smoke, and her first thought was that it was kids throwing smoke bombs. Peggy stated that once she was into the library, it was only seconds later that Brian Anderson ran into the library and collapsed in front of the main desk.

*Dave Sanders allegedly motioned for people to stay in the Library as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:57 pm

Thanks [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I didn't realize that very last note, that Mr. Sanders apparently motioned for people to stay in the library, very interesting, but not surprising.

I know in other similar threads that people have criticized Patti, including myself to a degree, but the more I think about it, she really just did what people were telling her to do, and certainly, under the unbelievably extraordinary circumstances, did what any of us would have done---listened to others' advice and/or instructions.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:05 pm

Ah yes please bring to light that the deceased hero too gave the same instructions so whoever's in charge in the library won't be criticised too much.

It is what it is, 4/20 had already happened, and there was definitely room for so much improvement.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:31 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Ah yes please bring to light that the deceased hero too gave the same instructions so whoever's in charge in the library won't be criticised too much.

It is what it is, 4/20 had already happened, and there was definitely room for so much improvement.

lol

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:49 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Thanks [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I didn't realize that very last note, that Mr. Sanders apparently motioned for people to stay in the library, very interesting, but not surprising.

I know in other similar threads that people have criticized Patti, including myself to a degree, but the more I think about it, she really just did what people were telling her to do, and certainly, under the unbelievably extraordinary circumstances, did what any of us would have done---listened to others' advice and/or instructions.

Well I hope people don't hate me for saying this but yes, it's very easy to criticize someone from the comfort of your home and chair. I've been in a situation where someone was screaming and stabbing their wrist with a knife less than a meter from me and I can tell you in that moment all I did was freeze as my mind was racing with no idea what to do. I find it somewhat shocking that anyone believes that mere civilians can be accused of doing something wrong in such an extreme situation , BUT I respect all opinions as everyone is entitled to their own, so , more power to whatever you think.

As long as these people's mental and physical wellbeing aren't threatened, I have no problem. I will have a problem with anyone going after these people and harassing them for something they are absolutely not guilty of.
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:12 pm

The way some or the way she acted in crisis doesn't define everybody else who have been capable of thinking quicker and proactively. The library deaths were the most casualties of 4/20, so who wouldn't flip out on what the procedures were in there that day and look for who was in charge?

As I said things already happened and there was definitely room for improvement and Patti was still patti so yeah.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Well I hope people don't hate me for saying this but yes, it's very easy to criticize someone from the comfort of your home and chair.
You can't really determine who on this board have been in crisis too either so how do you know criticism came from comfort and not experience?

Everybody are not the same. edit: Some of us have gone through things and maybe we just don't talk about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:20 pm

Patti wasn't a hero. Simple as that. and I forgive her for that.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:27 pm

You guys do realize that Patti Nielson in her first year at Columbine and she was a part-time art teacher, not the librarian with keys to lock the doors. As for barricading the doors, she was ONE person, not to mention the fact that she had already been shot at and had shrapnel in her shoulder. And she could hear them (she only saw one gunman outside, Eric) throwing bombs and shooting in the hallway right out the doors. What sort of barricade did you want her to construct in the less than 30 seconds she had before E&D entered? Even if there had been a barricade, those boys would have knocked it down, they wanted to be in the library because it was the best vantage to kill cops. This close contact shooting might've been improvised when the cafeteria bombs failed but they weren't just wandering around looking for targets.
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Well I hope people don't hate me for saying this but yes, it's very easy to criticize someone from the comfort of your home and chair.
You can't really determine who on this board have been in crisis too either so how do you know criticism came from comfort and not experience?

Everybody are not the same. edit: Some of us have gone through things and maybe we just don't talk about it.

That's true, sorry about that.
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:53 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Patti wasn't a hero. Simple as that. and I forgive her for that.
With two gun toting cahoots rampaging around the school there really wasn't much she could have done to protect herself, let alone everyone else around her.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Patti wasn't a hero. Simple as that. and I forgive her for that.
With two gun toting cahoots rampaging around the school there really wasn't much she could have done to protect herself, let alone everyone else around her.

Yes this. What could she have done? Leaving the library the kids could have been shot at as well. Leaving by both doors that is. There was no good choice for her
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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:26 pm

Is everyone trying to help me understand why she let kids die? Does no one comprehend that she did have ample time to gather students into the AV room, or go fuck it and have the kids evacuate? How fast would Eric and Dylan have gone into the library until they did anyway? there was TIME. Whatever I'm out. Patti is infact not a hero anyway, I don't have to understand why she wasn't. Dave sacrificed, Patti flight.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:37 pm

The last thread on this same discussion took place exactly this year. I'm basically echoing the sentiments of what some have said here so I don't get how a complete 360 occurred. It's undeniable that there was time to evacuate, that stubbornness and determination can have her be a leader and let the kids go. All the time she rambled under that table, was time where kids could LEAVE. oh, she may not know where the boys were at the moment? Back exit baby, the back exit.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:41 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here is the other thread for anyone who wants to read it. FWIW I have the exact same thoughts as the last thread.

I will never call her a hero, but I think she did the best she could as a panicked woman

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:55 am

I wanted to apologise for coming on too strong and getting a little mad by the way you guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Patti Nielson Procedure   Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:29 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I wanted to apologise for coming on too strong and getting a little mad by the way you guys.

Its all good. I thought you might be having an off day. Happens to everyone! Have a great day today :*
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