Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum

A place to discuss the Columbine High School Massacre along with other school shootings and crimes.
Anyone interested in researching, learning, discussing and debating with us, please come join our community!
 
HomeHome  PortalPortal  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Share | 
 

 Eric and Dylan - Godlike

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
sscc
Top Contributor


Posts : 372
Join date : 2016-02-27

PostSubject: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:37 pm

I think the fact that both of the boys indulged in the idea that they were godlike is interesting and I think there’s something telling in the way each boy refers to the concept of being a god. There are two very different points of view here and I think they point to the reality that Eric was far more insecure than Dylan. Also, Dylan mentions the idea of being a god much sooner (and also more often) than Eric does. I think this is a possible indication that it was Dylan’s ideas and point of view that were transferred to Eric in terms of motivation for the shooting instead of the other way around. We already know that Dylan wrote about hurting people before Eric started his own journal. Even the fact that Dylan kept a journal and then Eric followed his lead is an indication that Dylan was in some ways a role-model that Eric was trying to live up to which goes completely against what many people, including the experts, believe to be true. I think Dylan had a greater influence over Eric's thought process than is generally acknowledged.

I’ll start by quoting each mention of being “god” or “godlike” from Eric and Dylan’s journals for reference. Here is Dylan.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
5/21/97
Good things turn bad, bad things become good, the ‘people’ on the earth see it as a battle they can win. HA fuckin morons. If people looked at History, they would see what happens. I think, too much, I understand, I am GOD compared to some of those un-existable brainless zombies. Yet, the actions of them interest me, like a kid with a new toy. Another contrast, more of a paradox, actually, like the advanced go for the undevelopeds realm, while some of the morons become everything dwellers — but exceptions to every rule, & this is a BIG exception — most morons never change, they never decide to live in the ‘everything’ frame of mind!

9-5-97
me is a god, a god of sadness
exiled to this eternal hell
the people I helped, abandon me
I am denied what I want,
To love & to be happy
Being made a human
Without the possibility of BEING human

The cruelest of all punishments
To some I am crazy
It is so clear, yet so foggy
Everything’s connected, separated
I am the only interpreter of this
Id rather have nothing than be nothing
Some say godliness isn’t nothing
Humanity is the something I long for
I just want something I can never have

The story of my existence.

11-3-97
Some god I am...All people I ever might have loved have abandoned me, my parents piss me off & hate me...want me to have fuckin ambition!! How can I when I get screwed & destroyed by everything??!!! I have no money, no happiness, no friends...Eric will be getting further away soon...I’ll have less than nothing...how normal. I wanted to love...I wanted to be happy and ambitions and free & nice & good & ignorant...everyone abandoned me.

The meek are trampled on, the assholes prevail, the gods are
deceiving, lost in my little insane asylum with the outhouse [?] redneck music playing...wanna die & be free with my love...if she even exists. She probably hates me...finds a [?] or a jock who treats her like shit. I remember details...nothing worth remembering I remember. I don’t know my love: could be ___, or ____ or ____, or ____, or anyone. I don’t know & I’m sick of not knowing!! To be kept in the dark is a punishment!! I have lost my emotions like in Hurt the song. NIN. People eventually find happiness I never will. Does that make me a non-human? YES. The god of sadness…

2-2-98
Well well...so much changes...(like existence). I understand almost everything now...so close to my love — The runes have shown it, she has shown it, I have felt it. I know the meaning of each life: to be loved by your love, & to be happy with ones self. Only for the gods though (me, ____, etc.). the zombies & their society band together & try to destroy what is superior (what they don’t understand & are afraid of. Soon….either I’ll commit suicide, or I’ll get with & it will be NBK for us. My happiness. Her happiness. NOTHING else matters. I’ve been caught with most of my crimes —xpl [for example] drinking, smoking & the house vandalism, & the pipe bombs.

society is tightening it's grip on me, & soon I & [edited] will snap, we will have on revenge on society, & then be free, to exist in a timeless spaceless place of pure happiness. The purpose of life is to be happy & be with yer love who is equally happy. Not much more to say. Goodbye.

Almost happiness is slavery -- the real people (gods) are slaves to the majority of zombies, but we know & love being superior.

I didnt want to be a jock... i hated The hapiness
that they have - & I will have something infinitely better...

(By the way, some zombies are smarter than others, some manipulate... like my parents.)
I am God. ____ is God. & zombies will pay for their arrogance, hate, fear, abandonment, & distrust.

8-10-98
The zombies have set their place in my mind. for the cliff theory, Ive jumped off w. [arrow down to] ____ & we've floated away to the halcyon. the zombies will pay for their being, their nature. I know everything, yet I know nothing. I am a true god. my infinite memories, thoughts, perceivations of purity come a lot more w. her, there is pure pure hapiness -- the pupo purpose of our our existence. I hate, love things. hate everything, love me & [edited]. I understand that i can never ever be a zombie, even if i wanted to. the nature of my entity.. Soon we will live in the halcyons of our minds, the one thing that made me a god. Things are so simple, now that they are infinitely complicated. HAHAHAHA

I UNDERSTAND

THE EVERYTHING

I AM THE GOD

OF THE EVERYTHING

W. ____

Fate is my only master

So here’s my summary of Dylan’s use of idea that he was like a god. He was already a god, naturally, by his unique way of thinking, and he was destined to be alone in a world of zombies unless he found the other “real people” (or gods) and one of these might be the person who would actually love him. In some ways, Dylan longed to be a regular human being (or zombie) but he felt he wasn’t capable of being a zombie and he resented this fact. He felt that the zombies constantly abandoned him and would ensure that he would never be happy, a god of sadness. To deal with this, he was disdainful of the zombies. It wasn’t him who was flawed, it was them. He grew to hate them and want revenge because they were much happier than he was even though they were inferior and had abandoned, manipulated, distrusted, feared or hated him. I believe this is why he wanted to go NBK. To release his years of anger and resentment (wrath) upon the people around him.

Now onto Eric.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
4/12/98
as I said before, self awareness is a wonderful thing. I know what all you fuckers are thinking and what to do to piss you off and make you feel bad. I always try to be different, but I always end up copying someone else. I try to be a mixture of different things and styles but when I step out of myself I end up looking like others or others THINK I am copying. One big fucking problem Is people telling me what to fuckin do, think, say, act, and everything else. Ill do what you say IF I feel like it. But people (I.E. parents, cops, God, teachers) telling me what to [arrow points to do, think, say, act, and everything else] just makes me not want to fucking do it! thats why my fucking name is REB!!! no one is worthy of shit unless I say they are, I feel like GOD and I wish I was, having everyone being OFFICIALLY lower than me. I already know that I am higher than almost anymore in the fucking welt in terms of universal Intelligence and where we stand in the universe compared to the rest of the UNIV. and if you think I dont know what Im talking about then you can just "ßUCK DICH" and saugen mein Hund! Isnt america supposed to be the land of the free? how come, If im free, I cant deprive a stupid fucking dumbshit from his possessions If he leaves then sitting in the front seat of his fucking van out in plain sight and in the middle fucking nowhere on a Fri fucking day night. NATURAL SELECTION. fucker should be shot. same thing with all those rich snotty toadies at my school. fuckers think they are higher than me and everyone else with all their $ just because they were born into it? Ich denk NEIN. BTW, "sorry" is just a word. it doesnt mean SHIT to me. everyone should be put to a test. an ULTIMATE DOOM test, see who can survive in an environtment using only smarts and military skills. put them in a doom world. no authority, no refuge, no BS copout excuses. If you cant figure out the area of a triangle or what "cation" means, you die! if you cant take down a demon w/ a chainsaw or kill a hell prince w/ a shotgun, you die! fucking snotty rich fuckheads [Censored] who rely on others or on sympathy or $ to get them through life should be put to this challenge. plus it would get rid of all the fat, retarded, crippled, stupid, dumb, ignorant, worthless people of this world. no one is worthy of this planet only me and who ever I choose. there is just no respect for anything higher than your fucking boss or parent. everyone should be shot out into space and only the people I saw should be left behind

11/17/98
I want to do that too. I want to tear a throat out with my own teeth like a pop can. I want to gut someone with my hand, to tear a head off and rip out the heart and lungs from the neck, to stab someone in the gut, shove it up to the heart, and yank the fucking blade out of their rib cage! I want to grab some weak little freshman and just tear them apart like a fucking wolf. show them who is god. strangle them, squish their head, bite their temples into the skull, rip off their jaw. rip off their colar bones, break their arms in half and twist them around, the lovely sounds of bones cracking and flesh ripping, ahh... so much to do and so little chances.

11/22/98
I am fucking armed. I feel more confident, stronger, more God-like. I have confidence in my ability to deceive people, hopefully I’ll make it to April, but that might not happen. Ug, its been a busy weekend, I need to sleep, I’ll continue tomorrow.

And here’s Eric. He only mentions the idea being a god three times. The first mention is right before a reference to the van break in. This is mainly speculation but it makes me think the idea of being a god may have first come up in a conversation with Dylan about that night, possibly as they tried to justify their behavior to themselves and to each other. We can see that Dylan was the one calling himself a god among zombies for almost a year before this. The second two times, Eric doesn’t exactly say that he is a god. He says he wants to be violent to show someone that he’s god and then says that having weapons makes him feel more like a god. Eric does not seem to feel the same way as Dylan. He seems to feel that he is not quite a god when he is in his every day life because he is controlled by other people and that power or violence in general and NBK specifically will allow him to truly be a god.

So this is why I see it the way that I do. I believe it’s possible that Dylan started talking to Eric about how they were superior to other people and in a sense, godlike. I believe that Eric had deep self-esteem problems and that in Eric’s mind, NBK was going to officially "turn him into a god." He was going to finally prove that he was powerful and ultimately superior, regardless of what anyone else had to say on the matter. On the other hand, I think Dylan already believed he was basically a god, but this wasn’t necessarily a good thing because he suffered for it. Calling himself godlike was an acknowledgment that he was very different from the people around him, for better or worse. NBK was Dylan’s revenge for being a god in a world of zombies.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Lizpuff
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1570
Join date : 2016-03-02
Age : 29

PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:47 am

That reminds me of Langman in Why Kids Kill His quotes were that Eric wants to be God but thinks he isn't and that makes him mad and how Dylan thinks he is God but that he is a god of sadness and it makes him depressed.

_________________
Hold me now I need to feel complete
Like I matter to the one I need
Back to top Go down
sscc
Top Contributor


Posts : 372
Join date : 2016-02-27

PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:02 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
That reminds me of Langman in Why Kids Kill  His quotes were that Eric wants to be God but thinks he isn't and that makes him mad and how Dylan thinks he is God but that he is a god of sadness and it makes him depressed.
That's funny. I actually downloaded this book a couple of weeks ago but I haven't read it yet. It's nice to hear that someone else came to the same conclusion because it was one of the first things that stood out to me that showed the tangible differences between Eric and Dylan. However, I think Dylan's belief that he was a god only made him depressed at first and eventually led to rage. When you look at the quotes chronologically, you can see that Dylan starts off by being depressed and lamenting his status as a god but then moves on to say that the zombies will have to pay for their behavior. I don't understand why Dylan's rage and narcissism is largely ignored and instead people mainly focus on Eric's grandiosity and violence. They both show signs of thinking poorly of themselves and then covering it up with an over-the-top self-concept. It's a very similar mental process and I suspect that Dylan is only slightly quieter about his grandiose feelings because he's more secure with the idea than Eric.

I guess I need to read the book if I want to see what Langman says about whose idea this was. I know the idea of calling yourself a god isn't completely unheard of but it's idiosyncratic enough to make me think that Eric borrowed this idea from Dylan. When comparing dates, you can see that at first, Dylan was depressed and didn't really want to be a god but by the time 1998 comes (right after the van break in), he has accepted it and is saying outright that it makes him superior but society is trying to control him. This is the exact context in which Eric brings up being a god for the first time.

I also think that in addition to the idea of being a god, the idea of "self-awareness" making them superior comes from Dylan and that these are two closely related concepts. Eric seems to adopt this idea too. Maybe I'm over-analyzing or making too many assumptions but I believe that while Eric was the driving force behind the planning for 4/20, Dylan provided the philosophical framework of superiority for Eric to give himself permission to go through with killing others. In my mind, it was more than "Eric wanted to kill and Dylan wanted to die" that drove them into deadly territory and I think it was more of an equal partnership than is usually acknowledged. They just provided different pieces of the puzzle. In war or revolution, the leaders ensure that the moral and philosophical justifications are spelled out to the soldiers because killing and dying is serious business. Everyone needs a cause to believe in and a way to dehumanize the enemy. I think it was similar with Eric and Dylan. I've probably said it before but I don't think Dylan was simply depressed and giving himself an excuse to die. Maybe his rage was sparked by his depression but I think his desire to express his "wrath" was very clear. He wanted to die but he also wanted to get revenge.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
shades
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 2739
Join date : 2016-03-05
Location : Dark City

PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:34 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think the fact that both of the boys indulged in the idea that they were godlike is interesting and I think there’s something telling in the way each boy refers to the concept of being a god. There are two very different points of view here and I think they point to the reality that Eric was far more insecure than Dylan. Also, Dylan mentions the idea of being a god much sooner (and also more often) than Eric does. I think this is a possible indication that it was Dylan’s ideas and point of view that were transferred to Eric in terms of motivation for the shooting instead of the other way around. We already know that Dylan wrote about hurting people before Eric started his own journal. Even the fact that Dylan kept a journal and then Eric followed his lead is an indication that Dylan was in some ways a role-model that Eric was trying to live up to which goes completely against what many people, including the experts, believe to be true. I think Dylan had a greater influence over Eric's thought process than is generally acknowledged.

I agree. I won't deny this. Eventually I realised the same too. I think it's a stroke of luck that Dylan motivated somebody who just happened to have always had the rage and desire to hurt people which then lead to it being all Eric could think about. He wanted it so much that he took over on his own accord all the planning for NBK.

_________________
If you're so very good looking
Why do you sleep alone tonight?
I know because tonight is just like any other night
That's why you're on your own tonight
With your triumphs and your charms
While they are in each other's arms
Oh mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
And as I climb into an empty bed
Oh well, enough said

Back to top Go down
shades
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 2739
Join date : 2016-03-05
Location : Dark City

PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:37 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
So here’s my summary of Dylan’s use of idea that he was like a god. He was already a god, naturally, by his unique way of thinking, and he was destined to be alone in a world of zombies unless he found the other “real people” (or gods) and one of these might be the person who would actually love him. In some ways, Dylan longed to be a regular human being (or zombie) but he felt he wasn’t capable of being a zombie and he resented this fact. He felt that the zombies constantly abandoned him and would ensure that he would never be happy, a god of sadness. To deal with this, he was disdainful of the zombies. It wasn’t him who was flawed, it was them. He grew to hate them and want revenge because they were much happier than he was even though they were inferior and had abandoned, manipulated, distrusted, feared or hated him. I believe this is why he wanted to go NBK. To release his years of anger and resentment (wrath) upon the people around him.

Man, this is perfect. and highly relatable too.

_________________
If you're so very good looking
Why do you sleep alone tonight?
I know because tonight is just like any other night
That's why you're on your own tonight
With your triumphs and your charms
While they are in each other's arms
Oh mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
And as I climb into an empty bed
Oh well, enough said

Back to top Go down
shades
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 2739
Join date : 2016-03-05
Location : Dark City

PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:40 pm

This whole God thing sounds to me just a general term of trying to cope with how flawed they are and yet there's still a tiny bit of denial trying to do that. It's kinda like, who am I kidding, I could be my own person and laugh at the zombies, all these kids, the basic society, but yet I know I am an outcast and I'm not gonna be happy or accepted the way everybody else is.


_________________
If you're so very good looking
Why do you sleep alone tonight?
I know because tonight is just like any other night
That's why you're on your own tonight
With your triumphs and your charms
While they are in each other's arms
Oh mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
And as I climb into an empty bed
Oh well, enough said

Back to top Go down
TheSpiral
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 483
Join date : 2016-04-15
Age : 17
Location : Croatia

PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:43 am

Dylan is so unbelievably cringy.

_________________
For all I aspire, I'm really a lier...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:46 pm

Where did they get the idea that they were gods? What sort of things did they read that would influence their thoughts about such things? Did they study existentialism in school or something?

I think that knowing what sort of material they absorbed to form their thinking will explain a lot about how they saw the world, which would reveal so much more about them.

Back to top Go down
sscc
Top Contributor


Posts : 372
Join date : 2016-02-27

PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:58 pm

Here's a piece about the possibility that Eric was influenced by Manson (through Dylan's research), Hobbes and Nietzsche along with Hitler and the Nazis.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

He never mentioned Manson so it's unknown whether he really took an interest in that but he said in his journal "I just love Hobbes and Nietzsche," so we can assume that he read some of their work even if we don't know what he read. He definitely admired the Nazis and you can see his Nazi report written for school in the police documents.

The article mentions the idea of Nietzsche's Ubermensch (superman) which may be be somewhat of an inspiration for the idea that they were like gods, in that he is superior to ordinary man and not bound by the laws, morals and ethics that suppress the creative and destructive instincts of the average, weak men that make up the masses.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(Slightly off topic, but here is an interesting story of two other young men who were fascinated with the concept and used this to justify petty theft, vandalism and eventually the murder of another young man, which they had planned for months, simply to see if they could cause a public uproar and get away with it.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

I don't know much about Dylan's influences but the piece above also briefly mentions the movie Natural Born Killers and it seems that Dylan was especially interested in the concept of going on a crime spree with a woman he loved, as the characters in the movie do, although he eventually settled on the idea of NBK with Eric. They both seemed to have embraced the glorification of blood lust and gaining fame through violence that the movie addresses, while ignoring the fact that it was a criticism of this behavior. They took what they wanted and left what got in the way. As Eric said, "Like the early Nazi government, my brain is like a sponge, sucking up everything that sounds cool and leaving out all that is worthless. That’s how Nazism was formed, and that’s how I will be too!"

It's hard to say whether the ideas they were exposed to sparked this line of thought or whether they sought out confirmation for what they already believed about themselves. It's probably a mixture but there isn't enough information released to say what ideas came from where. I believe Eric was always looking for inspiration, validation and purpose so I also think this is why his relationship with Dylan was crucial to the final outcome. He claimed that individualism was important but it seems that it was in the partnership with Dylan that he found the confidence to rebel in these major ways. Before Dylan he may have tried to get away with breaking the rules but with Dylan his crimes took on the spin of being revolutionary and philosophically justified. Maybe I give Dylan too much credit but I believe it's more likely that Dylan was the true individualist and Eric was perpetually seeking someone to emulate and respect without even realizing it. As I said above, I believe that the idea of being like gods originated with Dylan between the two of them, even though I can't say why Dylan came to this idea in the first place.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan - Godlike   Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:34 pm

@sscc wrote:
Here's a piece about the possibility that Eric was influenced by Manson (through Dylan's research), Hobbes and Nietzsche along with Hitler and the Nazis.

He never mentioned Manson so it's unknown whether he really took an interest in that but he said in his journal "I just love Hobbes and Nietzsche," so we can assume that he read some of their work even if we don't know what he read. He definitely admired the Nazis and you can see his Nazi report written for school in the police documents.

The article mentions the idea of Nietzsche's Ubermensch (superman) which may be be somewhat of an inspiration for the idea that they were like gods, in that he is superior to ordinary man and not bound by the laws, morals and ethics that suppress the creative and destructive instincts of the average, weak men that make up the masses.

(Slightly off topic, but here is an interesting story of two other young men who were fascinated with the concept and used this to justify petty theft, vandalism and eventually the murder of another young man, which they had planned for months, simply to see if they could cause a public uproar and get away with it.

I don't know much about Dylan's influences but the piece above also briefly mentions the movie Natural Born Killers and it seems that Dylan was especially interested in the concept of going on a crime spree with a woman he loved, as the characters in the movie do, although he eventually settled on the idea of NBK with Eric. They both seemed to have embraced the glorification of blood lust and gaining fame through violence that the movie addresses, while ignoring the fact that it was a criticism of this behavior. They took what they wanted and left what got in the way. As Eric said, "Like the early Nazi government, my brain is like a sponge, sucking up everything that sounds cool and leaving out all that is worthless. That’s how Nazism was formed, and that’s how I will be too!"

It's hard to say whether the ideas they were exposed to sparked this line of thought or whether they sought out confirmation for what they already believed about themselves. It's probably a mixture but there isn't enough information released to say what ideas came from where. I believe Eric was always looking for inspiration, validation and purpose so I also think this is why his relationship with Dylan was crucial to the final outcome. He claimed that individualism was important but it seems that it was in the partnership with Dylan that he found the confidence to rebel in these major ways. Before Dylan he may have tried to get away with breaking the rules but with Dylan his crimes took on the spin of being revolutionary and philosophically justified. Maybe I give Dylan too much credit but I believe it's more likely that Dylan was the true individualist and Eric was perpetually seeking someone to emulate and respect without even realizing it. As I said above, I believe that the idea of being like gods originated with Dylan between the two of them, even though I can't say why Dylan came to this idea in the first place.

I can't remember who it was, but one of them wrote an essay on Charles Manson. It wasn't very good, had a lot of facts wrong, and just rambled pointlessly. I think Eric wrote it.

Okay, so Eric was studying Nazism, at least a little, and that would influence some of his thinking, but he doesn't appear to be an intellectual, so I doubt he was influenced by any formal ideologies other than what Dylan may have introduced in talking.

My curiosity about this is sparked by the possibility that they may have been partially indoctrinated into some sort of belief system by somebody along the way, and this is where they got some of their ideas about reality. Dylan certainly writes some rather cognitively dissociated thoughts about reality in his journal, which is a sign of possible mind-control. We saw the same thing with many other killers in the past, including Sirhan Sirhan, Berkowitz, Manson... shit, I could list a whole bunch of them! And they were all being mentally tampered with by government psychistrists, hypnotists, whatever before and after they went out and killed people.
Back to top Go down
 
Eric and Dylan - Godlike
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» EVANS, Dylan
» Erik's scene in class
» Team Connor-Dylan Joey-Beth Brandon-Frank
» Eric's Quest
» Dylan Newton (Remake)

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Thoughts on the Shooting-
Jump to: