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 Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222

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PostSubject: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:24 am

File 174A-DN-57419 April 30, 1999
Inv Thomas Wilson, DJTTF
On 04/29/99 Detective Steve Hipp, Northglenn Police Department, was contacted regarding lead DN1796. Hipp provided a transcript of the interview with Brandon Martine of Northglenn High School.
A copy of the transcript was submitted to SA Matt Harris for evaluation and coordination with computer connections related to the suspects.
Martine claimed to know Eric Harris from the Internet. The interview details communications between them and the use of computer games involving school simulations.
The interview does not indicate any knowledge on Martine’s part that Eric Harris or his friends were planning to commit crimes or possessed weapons or explosives.
Detective Hipp is available to facilitate any future interviews if necessary.

NORTHGLENN POLICE DEPT. DET. S. HIPP & DET. P. GESI CR [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
INTERVIEW WITH BRANDON MARTINE DATE OF INTERVIEW: 04-23-99

HIPP: Being conducted by Detective Steve Hipp, Detective Paul Gesi, Northglenn Police Department at the Northglenn High School on 4-23-99 reference Intel Report 700899, time's 11:33 and we're at, in an office at the High School. And it's just the three of us in the room and I'U be speaking with Brandon Marline, M-A-R-T-I-N-E, date of birth 12-23-81 of 10611 Julian Street, Westminster, Colorado, 80030, home phone 303-469-7485. Do you have a, a work phone number, do you work?
MARTINE: Uh, no sir.
HIPP: Okay.
MARTINE: I do have a pager though.
HIPP: What's your pager number?
MARTINE: Uh, 303-510-3741.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:24 am

HIPP: 3741, okay. Now, with speaking just briefly with uh, Officer Hawk, it's my understanding that uh, you had some contact with these two gentlemen.
MARTINE: Correct.
HIPP: Uh, with the Trench Coat Mafia?
MARTINE: Um, I didn't know them as the Trench Coat Mafia and I didn't know of any relationship to the Trench Coat Mafia, but I did know um, Eric Harris uh, personally and have met him personally and I knew, I don't recogni-, I don't remember his name, the other kid though, but I recognize his picture and I remember meeting him and I just remembered him being a good friend of Eric.
GESI: Why don't you go ahead and lay it out, how you uh, met him originally and what happened.
MARTINE: Um, about maybe three years ago, maybe a little bit longer, I don't know, I'm not sure exactly, but uh, we met on a bulletin board system, a BBS, um, called reczone, it uh, was ran by a guy up in Boulder and uh, my friends and I were on this bulletin board and I got onto computer games 'cause I started to like 'em and uh, we called in to play multi-player games and uh, he, all of the sudden he came in and uh, you know, just like any normal person, you greet 'em and, you know, be nice to 'em and say hi and they start playing with you and you have fun with 'em and after since then, uh, I have known him, that's how I met was on there. Uh, the board did eventually go down and the owner sold it to someone else and we all moved over to another bulletin board system called Mystical Realms and the owner of that I was not so sure of, I just remember a lot of us going over there and he did go over there and uh, we still played over there, we switched to other games 'cause new ones were coming out and uh, I knew him from there and then afterwards, all those boards went down and the new thing was the internet and uh, we got on the internet and I’ve known him on there ever since and uh, uh, I stayed in touch with him, I had his phone number and made sure I called him and stuff and uh, we did meet a couple of times wi-, uh, we had net parties they called 'em where we would all join up in a group and meet somewhere and play together at a local area and uh.
HIPP: When's the last time you had a personal meeting with.
MARTINE: About maybe a week ago.
HIPP: Where was that at?
MARTINE: Um, I'm not sure of the exact date.
HIPP: That's alright.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:24 am

MARTINE: Um, it wasn't personal, it was on the net and I talked to him uh, on uh, AMI, which is America Online Instant Messenger and um, he uh, I, I just, I, I was talking to him and uh, I told him I was gonna get in touch with him and give him a call earlier to see if he wanted to do something but I never got a chance to call him.
HIPP: You got his phone number memorized?
MARTINE: Uh, 932-8561.
GESI: 8561.
HIPP: And that's for Har-, for uh, Harris?
MARTINE: Yeah.
HIPP: 932-8561?
MARTINE: 61.
GESI: Have you ever been down to his house?
MARTINE: Uh, no I have not. Uh, he's never been to mine either.
GESI: Alright, where would you guys meet, then?
MARTINE: Uh, we met one place up in Boulder where they play games and it was above an arcade and we uh, went there and met uh, from one of the bulletin board systems and another one, there was a competition going out at Red Rocks Community College and he gave me the information about that one and said that Columbine High School got, like all that information about it and he wanted me to come down to that one with him and uh, I met him down at that one and um, we played down there and uh, there mighta been somewhere else but I can't remember.
GESI: Okay, the place up in Boulder.
MARTINE: Yes.
GESI: Um, it's above an arcade, do you know where abouts in Boulder, do you remember the streets?
MARTINE: Um, no I don't. I just know it was above an arcade, um.
HIPP: How'd you know to go there? How did you get directions?
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:24 am

MARTINE: Uh, directions were uh, through the BBS because the owner of the BBS told us that he was gonna pay and support for this uh, gaming that was going on up there and a bunch of us and my friends we went up to the location and he sent it through us in our uh, mail system on the bulletin board.
GESI: Now, the, what is a BBS?
MARTINE: It's a bulletin board system they call 'em, I'm not exactly sure of all the information I can give you but what it is is you dial into it, it has multiple phone numbers and you um, can chat, post messages, uh, have e-, your personal e-mail system on it and stuff. The one on reczone was just all localized, it was only that area that could call, you know, call into it direct, um, when Mystical Realms came along, they, they uh, broadened to the internet and that one you could use to get onto the internet and stuff, but.
GESI: So most recent was via the internet?
MARTINE: Uh, what do you mean?
GESI: Your most recent communication uh-
MARTINE: With him, was off the internet, yes-
GESI: Okay and, and as far as obtaining information on these uh, particular meetings.
MARTINE: Uh, the meetings that I remember were all declared through uh, the bulletin board systems when, when we, when we first knew each other, but uh, the other information to Red Rocks was declared over phone I think and online on the internet. He sent me a message I think.
HIPP: Had he met you here at the school?
MARTINE: Huh?
HIPP: Has he met you here at the high school?
MARTINE: Um, no, uh, I think he does know that I went to Northglenn High School but uh, I don't, uh, he never came here or met me here.
GESI: Okay.
HIPP: What did you talk about?
MARTINE: Uh, everything. I don't, I could go over no-, numerous things. I mean.
HIPP: Give me some highlights, some things you think, things you think are important.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:25 am

MARTINE: Um, the last time I talked to him that I remember him talking about him liking music and uh, 'cause we're big into music a lot, me and our friends and uh, he was talking about how he liked techno music and that's the same kind I like.
HIPP: Techo?
MARTINE: Techno.
HIPP: Techno?
MARTINE: And uh, he said he really liked the, the group uh, Ramstein and uh.
HIPP: Ramstein?
MARTINE: Yeah and he wanted some songs from 'em and I told him I had some and um, I, I was nice to him about it and stuff and uh, he uh, uh, another thing that we did was, is uh, I talked to him about uh, his philosophy class, he was in a philosophy class, and uh, he said he really liked it and he was, he was getting along in it and stuff and uh, I told him I was going to do a philosophy class next year and he really, we went off a little bit about our philosophies and they were similar.
HIPP: What's his philosophies?
MARTINE: Um, he was talking to me about how uh, he liked Aristotle's stuff and, and how he, he just liked the, the concept of, of talking to each other and.
HIPP: You okay?
MARTINE: Yeah. But I, I don’t know a lot about the, the philosophies, I just remember that we were talking and, and he, he uh, he, he just told me some of his and, and, and I told him some of mine and they matched and I really didn't want to get into a big deal on it with him because I know that's a touchy subject for a lot of people and uh.
HIPP: Tell me some more about his philosophies, not who, I understand he liked Aristotle.
MARTINE: I really don't know. I, I know that he liked playing the games and stuff just for uh, fun, he told me 'cause we all did it just for fun, he said.
HIPP: What games you talking?
MARTINE: Uh, uh Doom II, um, Duke Nukem 3D, uh. Quake and I tried talking about Quake II with him but he said he didn't get into that 'cause it was, his computer wasn't fast enough and stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:25 am

HIPP: We're gonna pause for just a second, I'll be right back.
HIPP: We're back on tape.
GESI: Just within seconds. You, you stopped at Doom II or what, what other type of game?
MARTINE: Um, like I said Duke Nukem, uh, um, he made levels for uh, some of the games and I played 'em and I have, I think I still have one of the maps on my computer, um, he made a level for Doom II and they refer to 'em as watts [wads], they're just levels and uh, um, we played on that, I didn't like the designs on 'em and stuff though. The, the one, there was one particular one though, it was a Duke Nukem 3D that uh, I remember, um, he said he replicated it in his school and uh, it was the first time that, that he ever personally like gave me a, a, a file to, to, to play like that and uh, we played against each other, uh, privately uh, modem to modem just uh, me and him on it and uh, we played the level and i-, and.
GESI: What was the theme of the level?
MARTINE: Um, usually there is no themes to the levels, you just, you get the level and um, you memorize it in your head because you know you gotta figure it out and uh, when, when you know a level, it's just death match, you just, one on one going across at each other and um.
GESI: So it was just a one on one?
MARTINE: Yeah. You just played like that.
GESI: [INAUDIBLE] okay.
HIPP: Tell me what his personal philosophies were, they, you said they were like yours so you know, what, what are your personal philosophies, what are you talking about?
MARTINE: He um, he stated that, you know, he liked a lot of people. Uh, he told me that he liked women a lot, uh, he had problems with girls sometimes and stuff and I had problems with them as well and we always talked it through each other. He um.
HIPP: Explain that to me now.
MARTINE: Uh, one night, uh, I came back from a place called Rock Island and uh, I told him I wasn't feeling very good and we just were talking and he said, you know, he got dumped down by a girl too and uh, and I did as well and, and, I was talking to him and he said that um, he, he, he was helping me through it. He was telling me all this stuff like saying, you know, it's okay, and stuff and um, I tried tell', saying the same back to him and told him that I wanted to get together with him, you know, to, to talk things out and work things with him and uh, I wanted him to come down and uh, he said that he couldn't, all the times that I talked to him, he always
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:25 am

said that he couldn't 'cause he had, he was really busy and stuff because he worked and he went to school and, and we live pretty far apart from each other and.
HIPP: What's some of the other personal philosophies you talk about that were same or different.
MARTINE: Like I said...
HIPP: You were saying {INAUDIBLE]
MARTINE: ...he didn't like Plato's stuff he told me 'cause I, I like that, um.
GESI: What is significant about the Aristotle that you guys shared?
MARTINE: Um, um, oh geez, I can't remember exactly. I just know that we were talking about certain, I asked him if he knew Ann Rand because that's one of my faves.
GESI: Uh huh.
MARTINE: And uh, he said no he didn't recognize her and I said I really base a lot off of her and he says, he says that if she followed the same thing as Aristotle he would like that and.
GESI: What is it about Aristotle that you guys like? [INAUDIBLE]
MARTINE: I really can't remember. Um, just that he was one of the first creators and uh, I, we didn't really go big on the subject, he was just explaining the class to me, how it was really easy and he liked it a lot 'cause he shared his feelings.
HIPP: Tell me what he disliked and you disliked that you agreed about. Not necessarily philosophy, I mean personally.
MARTINE: There was one kid on this bulletin board system we all had problems with, we didn't like but I mean that, that's normal things and uh, we, we talked together about it and it was our little thing sorta too that we didn't like him but uh, I asked my, that kid, I asked him, he's my friend now, uh, I asked him if he ever felt threatened by us or had any threats from us or from, from him 'cause he knows him as well and he said no, he was never threatened by us and we did, you know, we didn't threaten him and, and I don't remember we really getting seriously into it because, I mean, that's not something we, we do. Uh, we would get a little bit mad about it but um.
HIPP: Why would you not like this kid originally?
MARTINE: The stuff he said, he would say stuff about us and we would go back at him, just.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:25 am

HIPP: Alright, what do you mean, I don't understand.
MARTINE: Um, on the bulletin board system, uh, he posted messages that had uh, thoughts in 'em that, that we didn't like and, and-
HIPP: What thoughts?
MARTINE: I can't remember uh. exactly. This was a long-
HIPP: What do you think, what would be thoughts that you didn't like?
MARTINE: I can't remember, it, he, we played this game called Swords of Chaos online, it was a, it was a multi-player, I don't remember if, if uh Eric ever played it but I know that this kid did and we always got into fights about it because it was a game that was uh, you either play co-op together or you, you go head on head with someone and we always had problems with it because we would, it was a difficult game to play with and it was, we always play with each other and um.
HIPP: Did Eric ever talk to you about Nazism?
MARTINE: Uh, no, I did not-
HIPP: Racism?
MARTINE: No.
HIPP: Supreme race?
MARTINE: No. We did talk about uh, jocks though and uh he, I remember us, uh, getting a little bit mad about it but we didn't um, he said he played baseball one time and, and I told him I played baseball my freshman year and uh, he, he related something to that but he wasn't, he never told me that he was like really mad at 'em or [INAUDIBLE] he had the same opinion as me, like when uh, you, you like join a team or something, it's all favoritism, you know, you get on it and they don't care about uh, if you get to play or not, it's all about winning and stuff and we talked about that but that was all.
GESI: Do you letter in something?
MARTINE: Um, marching band.
GESI: In marching band?
MARTINE: Yeah and I played baseball, baseball my freshman year and.
GESI: Uh huh.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:26 am

HIPP: Okay, go back to, what did he tell you about Nazism and, and stuff like that, any other thoughts?
MARTINE: Like I said, I, I don't remember him saying anything-
HIPP: Or, you know, that type of thing.
MARTINE: He was never a racist person around us, he never said anything racist, any, any racist marks, he, he never-
HIPP: Or when you talked philosophy, you talk, did he talk Hitler's philosophy then, then maybe if not Nazi then Hitler?
MARTINE: Oh no, no, he did not. I know that he wouldn't go off about that because if he did I would've really remembered it because I, I wouldn't have been talking to him about the situation, 'cause I don't like talking about that stuff.
GESI: How many times did you meet him face to face? Like, like friends?
MARTINE: Um, coulda been two to four times.
GESI: Two to four times and the most recent was when?
MARTINE: I think uh, Red Rocks Community College was the last one.
GESI: And that was when?
MARTINE: Oh geez, um, maybe last year I think, sometime, or the year before.
GESI: And the last time you talked to him was about a week ago?
MARTINE: Yeah about, I guess.
GESI: And that was by the phone?
MARTINE: Uh, no, it was on the internet.
HIPP: How did he dress when you met him, the times you were with him?
MARTINE: Uh, he did wear pants that had a lot of pockets on 'em, never, I've never seen him in a trench coat, um, he-
HIPP: Did he wear, did he look Gothic, was he wearing black?
MARTINE: He always, no, he never wore, I never saw him Gothic person, he, he wore a hat always though, I remember him always wearing a hat, um, the other kid though that hung out
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:26 am

with him, um, he, he seemed a little bit Gothic to me, uh, for some reason. He wasn't very talkative, he, they, they sounded like they were best friends though and um, he just didn't seem like the, that's why I didn't, that's why I don't know him as well and didn't like talking to him because I just didn't feel that he was a, a comfortable person.
HIPP: Okay, how, talk about hates, dislikes, groups of people he hated, disliked, you're talking about the same, I mean if you talk philosophy, you talked everything, you talked politics [INAUDIBLE]-
MARTINE: Uh, yes but I can't remember uh, completely what his was. I, I just know that we talked a little about, it was about mostly the class though. Because I related my class that I was gonna take next year to, to his and asked him if, if his was, you know, going good and stuff.
HIPP: What, what are your dislikes in people? Groups of people? This-
MARTINE: I don't have dislikes in groups of people, I try to keep to myself and uh.
HIPP: You a loner?
MARTINE: Uh, no I have friends and.
GESI: What was the main thing that you liked about this Eric?
MARTINE: That he had similar interests as me and he um.
HIPP: Interests being com- computer games?
MARTINE: Computer games.
HIPP: What else?
MARTINE: Um, he, um, he was just a person that I, I thought that uh, that knew me pretty well and I knew him and we could uh, talk through things, you know, he's just one of those common people that I know, I, I know a bunch of people that seem to be close to me on the net and I like ha-, being close with people on the net, I don't, you know, get real personal with people unless I know 'em pretty well and he was a guy that I talked to a lot. We, uh, we, we shared a common interest in um, in things on the bulletin board and that was just what interest me at the time was, with the bulletin board system.
HIPP: What, I still don't understand what you meant by philosophies when you first started. I mean, and I'm not talking ancient history philosophies, I'm talking your personal beliefs that you and him discussed and, and why they were the same. 'Cause that's what you're talking
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:26 am

about. I'm not going out and telling anybody this if you have concerns of this, I just need to know this.
MARTINE: No I don't have concerns about that. I, I like I said though, it's, it was brief to me, I don't remember the, the complete uh, discussion we had about it, I just know that we were talking about philosophies.
GESI: [INAUDIBLE]
MARTINE: Yeah, well, well usually when we chat, you know, we, we chat about what's going on at school and stuff and that one just came up 'cause I told him, you know, next year I'm taking, I'm taking Human Traditions and it's sort of a philosophy class and then all of the sudden he, he started talking about uh, his philosophy class and saying that he liked it because it was a good class where he shared uh, a good idea, he said he didn't like some of the other ideas that the people had in there because uh, that was another thing, he felt like uh, friends, uh, I have a big topic about friends and he doesn't, I, I don't really necessarily have friends, I, I call 'em acquaintances and the reason why is is because my true definition of a friend is, is too definition of a friend.
HIPP: M-m h-m-m.
MARTINE: I don't, you know, but I consider people that would, you know, I hang around with people, they consider we're friends, you know, so I have to say that I'm friends with 'em and I hang out with 'em and they are.
GESI: Alright. Let's look hindsight a little bit now. After, after this tragedy that's happened. Tell us some things that um, looking hindsight, 'cause a lot of times when people are caught up uh, with friends and just talking, stuff like that, there's not any true red flags that come up, looking hindsight sometimes though we look back and we go wow, maybe. And we're not obviously not looking to place blame anywhere, you understand that? You don't have any-
MARTINE: Do you mean, what, what, what do you mean? I [INAUDIBLE]
GESI: Looking hindsight do you, do, now knowing what happened, do you look back and remember some things that he talked about or did?
MARTINE: Um, that would relate to this, um, us uh, uh not liking that one kid, uh, that was on the bulletin board but he didn't really go big on that. Um, uh, playing the game Duke Nukem, there were pipe bombs in that game and him creating the level that I remember.
HIPP: Duke?
MARTINE: Duke Nukem.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:27 am

HIPP: Nukem?
MARTINE: Yeah.
HIPP: How do you spell that?
MARTINE: D-U-K-E.
HIPP: K-E.
MARTINE: N-U-K-E-M 3D it was called.
HIPP: 3D?
MARTINE: DukeNukem3D.
GESI: Can you still get online and get that game?
MARTINE: Um, yes. Um.
GESI: How would you do that?
MARTINE: Get online and get, I don't know what you mean, uh.
GESI: Well how would you if you wanted to play the game? How, how, tell me how you get there.
MARTINE: You would, uh, have to personally call someone up and directly do it, it was not an internet based program.
GESI: It was not internet based.
MARTINE: It was a multi-player though with a bulletin board system localized. You, or networked together.
GESI: Right.
HIPP: It had pipe bombs, what else, what, what was the setting, where was the, the pipe bomb in the game played? What, what setting? Uh, a warehouse? A school? A hospital? A department store?
MARTINE: Uh, the pipe bomb was just a general weapon in the game.
HIPP: Yeah, but I mean, where is the, the background game supposed to be, like when you, I know when you play different-
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:27 am

MARTINE: When you play?
HIPP: Yeah.
MARTINE: The role of the game, uh, I don't, you're just supposed to go through bad guys. I don't really get into the roles of the games, I just like, skills-
GESI: But that, what he's asking is like, um, as your character, is it moving through a cave, is he moving through warehouses killing people or?
MARTINE: Oh, he moves through uh, uh streets. Anything you want you can make a level personalized to your own [INAUDIBLE]
GESI: Was any level personalized to a school, now that you think back?
MARTINE: He, yes, he created a level, personalized to his school he told me and uh, I mean.
GESI: Do you remember seeing it?
MARTINE: I played him on it.
GESI: Okay, what was it, what was the layout? What parts of the school?
MARTINE: I, I really don't under-, I really don't know that, the layout of it but I do remember a kitchen in it and uh, he, it had a, a square and there was um, a, a like a table platform here and a platform here and you can enter in it uh, four ways I think and he put laser uh, trip wires all over on the, 'cause you could do that in the game and you can put one up and, and crouch and put one down and he put 'em at all the entrances and usually would trap himself in there and I would try going in there and getting him but that was, that was the part of the game and.
GESI: Where would he set up the pipe bombs at in the game?
MARTINE: Um, uh, usually uh, he would and you would pers-, put 'em around the lasers because when you tripped a laser it would create an explosion and the explosion would set off the pipe bomb. You could set ‘em off uh, manually as well but just as a smart player would do, they would put 'em around on the sides, um, he, he did the same. He put 'em around near the other explosions.
GESI: How would you, um, 'cause I've never played this game, understand. How, how would you know that it's a pipe bomb, a pipe bomb compared like to a hand grenade or any other type of thing?
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:27 am

MARTINE: Because it was a, if not a pipe bomb, something that you throw and it um, it looks like a pipe literally and um, when you throw it it clings on the ground and it goes to an area. It doesn't blow up until you manually set it to blow up.
GESI: Okay. Do you remember anything, what, did any of the games include timers?
MARTINE: Uh, um, what do you mean timer wise? Timer weapons?
GESI: Timer pipe bombs, yes.
MARTINE: Um, no. But you could set it off uh, uh any way, uh manually, uh, by throwing another bomb at it and blowing it up, that's.
HIPP: Okay. Did he ever talk about guns and, and bombs in general, how to make 'em, how to do it?
MARTINE: Um.
HEPP: Real guns, real bombs.
MARTINE: Real guns, I've never had an issue with him but the bombs sort of. Uh, he did talk about uh, getting some information on the net about um, building uh, fireworks in devices and he told me uh, one time that he, um, he, something about a fireworks stand or something. He said he, he got a bunch of fireworks from there and he said every night he would go out and ha-   uh, go with his friend uh, and uh, they would go out to like sewers and light off fireworks and stuff. And he said that um one time it got to a point where uh, he said he got in trouble for doing uh, trespassing, something with a van, I, I can't remember exactly but he said something about a van and he got in trouble about it and I tried getting more about it but he said he didn't want to talk about it. I felt, I didn't.
HIPP: Okay. We talked about getting on the net to build bombs?
MARTINE: Uh, yeah, he just said that he got some good information about building a good uh, fireworks and explosives and stuff.
HIPP: Did he say bombs or fireworks? [INAUDIBLE]
MARTINE: Um, I don't think, he never related 'em to bombs I don't think.
HIPP: He said fireworks and explosives?
MARTINE: Yes. Um, I do remember on his web site he said he did post the instructions on there but I never was interested in it. I did go to his web site though a couple of times.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

HIPP: What was his web site?
GESI: Tell us about that
MARTINE: Um, on his web site it was black and it had like red stripes and stuff on it. It was mostly related to the game Quake, which was a new, and Doom II, he had uh, stuff on there that you can download. Um, he put my name down on the bottom with some other people that we knew that would put like special things to these people, you know, for creating the page and stuff and he had a, a, a private page to it in the back room and you had to enter a password on the bottom and it was something like 4tequila something. I can't remember exactly because I had it written down and, and he took the site down a while ago and I never got to see, uh, I never went to it as much 'cause it didn't have anything that really interests me.
HIPP: What did he have on there?
MARTINE: Um, on the private section he had Mama jokes I guess you would consider 'em, they we-, uh they were just jokes. He had a big long uh, text tiling on there but I didn't, wasn't interested on reading it a lot of it, he had files you could download, uh, he ca-, he uh, he called something about a clan and clans related on the internet are different from like gangs and cliques or whatever. Uh, clans on the internet are a group of people that play the game that are teams, they play a team versus a team and he wanted uh, he wanted me to, actually we're on a clan together and uh, we, we had our friends on it as well and we'd play this game and against other people and uh, he then said that the clan would, he said that the clan broke down and it went away and he said that now it was just his personal clan with him and Vodka, which was his friend, uh, that he hung out with and um.
HIPP: Vodka?
MARTINE: Yeah, like the drink vodka and uh, he, he said that uh he, he just made it personalized with him and I said that's cool, you know, just to be in, I told him you know, I'm cool with that and uh, I'll be with you guys but I can't come down there and do stuff with you and.
GESI: What, what was the name of the clan?
MARTINE: I really can't remember. I just remember before it was like RB [RC – Rebel Clan] or something like that.
GESI: RB?
MARTINE: RB which stand for something and I can't remember. I just remember the initials that we had. Um.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

GESI: What was the, you said that he had some text. What was, and you didn't read all of it but what was the gist of it?
MARTINE: Um, it was just an explanation of a lot of stuff, uh, on it. It had a, the, the strategy play on how to play and stuff like that.
GESI: Anything about his beliefs or?
MARTINE: I don't know, I really didn't get into it.
GESI: Did he talk about um, actually making a pipe bomb?
MARTINE: He told me about making something that exploded and he went out and tested it with his friend near a sewer.
GESI: Where, by what sewer, any idea?
MARTINE: I have no clue, he just said-
GESI: Just by a sewer?
MARTINE: He said he went to some uh, open like uh, open uh pipe or something, he said he went in there and exploded it and he said it was real loud or something.
GESI: An open pipe, you mean like a drain pipe?
MARTINE: Yeah, something like that, he said.
GESI: And did he say, he didn't say where it was, did it sound like he walked there?
MARTINE: Uh, it sounded like yeah, he did, he said he, when he lit it off or something, he started running through uh, yards and jumping fences or something 'cause it was pretty loud he said or something.
GESI: So it was near a neighborhood.
MARTINE: I, I think so.
GESI: Do you have any idea about when that was? Think about it.
MARTINE: It was before he got in trouble with uh, trespassing or whatever for something.
GESI: Before he broke into the car?
MARTINE: Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

GESI: Okay. I mean how long before, any idea?
MARTINE: Uh, a while, I don't know, a couple of weeks, maybe.
GESI: Did he say who was with him when that happened?
MARTINE: His friend Vodka.
HIPP: Vodka. Now Vodka, who is Vodka?
MARTINE: Um, it was this tall guy that I think was the picture of his of uh, uh, gunman.
GESI: So you think Vodka is this other gunman?
MARTINE: Correct. Uh, he, uh, Eric was the only person that I knew that hung out with, you know, had a real good best friend or something and that would be considered him uh he, he came to the, the net parties with us once in a while, he never, he never really talked a lot to us about like him playing. I never saw him online a lot, he just hung out with him a lot is what I remember.
GESI: What would Vodka, or not Vodka, what would Eric say about his parents?
MARTINE: That was something I never really got to talk to him about. I never knew his parents, I called his house and his parents would answer the phone but I asked if he was there and they would just get him for me. I remember him talking about his brother, he said he had an older brother but he really didn't talk about his family life that much.
HIPP: Did he ever talk about-
MARTINE: He said he got mad at 'em once in a while for something.
HIPP: He got mad at 'em?
MARTINE: For something, I can't remember what, but it was just like a common kid thing, you know, you get mad at your parents for things.
HIPP: Did he ever talk about guns, his guns?
MARTINE: No. Never.
HIPP: Never? Do you own guns?
MARTINE: No.
HIPP: Do you own guns?
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

MARTINE: No.
HIPP: Okay. And he never talked about guns?
MARTINE: No. We just talked about the guns online but not like seriously, we just talked about, you know, what was the best to use to, to, to kill the other person on the game.
GESI: What would he say?
HIPP: What was the best to use?
MARTINE: Um, theoretically, the, it depends on what game, too. Uh, theoretically on Doom II, um, it would be the double barrel shotgun, uh, wide spray, close range is the best, he said with uh, up close, you know, and we, I mean these were just common things that you would talk about because it relates to the game.
HIPP: M-m h-m-m.
MARTINE: And uh, the BFG was a good gun because-
HIPP: What's a BFG?
MARTINE: Uh, they refer to the Big Fucking Gun, um, you um, shoot out a wall.
HIPP: What kind of-
MARTINE: And it spreads and if you hit out a wall at a certain angle, at that angle you can hit someone that is really far away from you. It's just a green blob that shoots and it's all electronic impulse and.
HIPP: Okay.
MARTINE: Uh, on Duke Nukem, I explained to him that the chain gun is the best when you're flying in the air 'cause you had jet packs and uh, when you're flying in the air, if you have auto aim on, all the bullets directly go to the person and say if you had a rocket launcher, they go [INAUDIBLE] someone else.
GESI: What would he say about Vodka?
MARTINE: He just said he was a good friend. They talked a lot to each other, um, I never really knew him personally but uh, I just remember him saying everything he did was with him. A lot of the things were with him.
GESI: How long do you remember him talking about him?
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

MARTINE: About his friend? Um, that was a while ago actually and that would be when uh, probably the last time was when uh, the incident happened where he got in trouble with the law I guess.
GESI: Who do you suppose in the, in talking to Eric, who, who sounded more like the leader? Eric or Vodka?
MARTINE: Sounded like uh, Eric, Eric was um, a guy that was more in control and he would go do stuff and, and Vodka would follow, follow him. But I, I, I don't know though because Vodka would have ideas and Eric would follow along with his ideas but I’m-
[END OF SIDE ONE]
HIPP: Eric, what ideas would Vodka have that Eric would follow along on?
MARTINE: Uh, like going out at night and lighting off fireworks. I remember he said that was a good idea, that he, that Vodka had and he said that he was gonna go do it and stuff.
GESI: Now, what did it sound like to you, uh, who, who knew more about like making these explosives? Was it Eric or Vodka?
MARTINE: I didn't know much about Vodka, but I know Eric, he, he said that uh, he knew some stuff about ‘em.
HIPP: Give me some other names of people that, that you know.
MARTINE: Um.
HIPP: That would know.
MARTINE: Eric used the handle Reb, Rebel, Reb Doomer, Rebel Doomer, Reb Domain [REB DoMiNe] was the last one that I had for him.
HIPP: Okay, Reb, Rebel.
MARTINE: Uh, Reb Doomer.
HIPP: Reb. Reb Doomer?
MARTINE: Doomer. Um, um, Reb Domain was the last one I uh, have of him. Uh, he did have an ICQ number that used a different name. I can't remember what it is, I have a-
HIPP: What's an ICQ number, um, um-
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:29 am

MARTINE: ICQ is a program in which you can enter la-, or you can talk to someone, um, or that you can send 'em files, talk to 'em and stuff and he got on-
HIPP: On the computer, right, all of this?
MARTINE: Yes, uh, on the computer, and he got on that an-, with me and um, it shows when they get online, it shows when they're offline and you can send a message to him online or offline. Uh, he got on that with a different name and he told me it was his father's account and his dad ran the computer or something and he said that he, he couldn't, he had to use that ICQ number because it was his father's computer and he was on a lot and I chatted through him on that but he said that was his, his dad's computer that he was on.
GESI: Okay.
MARTINE: Um.
GESI: Did he talk about where his computer was in the house?
MARTINE: I, I think, from what I know, I, I think he said uh, that he had one computer and it was somewhere in his house where uh, it was his dad's computer and he could only use it once in a while he told me because he said, that's why he wasn't able to play the games anymore.
GESI: Okay. Now, bearing in the light of what's happened, I, I can, I can tell you're emotionally upset and probably for a whole bunch of reasons. Who should we go talk to that we should be concerned about in light of the reality that's happened here.
MARTINE: Um, a friend that I know on the internet, I can't, I don't know his um, personal name for you right now, I can find out for you. He um, he, I, I just remember me and Eric uh, being mean to him and uh, I, I, I'm a friend with him now but he, it, like I said, it was that kid that was online. Know, I only know his handle and his Mystical, um, if any other information from the guys that we all hung out with, I don't know if that would be helpful. A lot of 'em said they don't know him as personally as I do, um, one guy um, that owned the BBS, I tried getting in touch with last night, I e-mailed him and he told me or he hasn't replied yet but my friends told me that um, I should uh, talk to him and see if he knows anything because he's wor-, you know, he ran the BBS, he knows what.
GESI: Well would Eric talk about anybody else other than Vodka that shared his beliefs as strongly?
MARTINE: Not that I remember.
HIPP: What's some, what's this guy's name on the, that ran the BBS?
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:29 am

MARTINE: I don't know, I have it written down at home, I got his real name, his full name, uh, uh, but I don't know what it, it's like Larry something.
GESI: And-
MARTINE: I can't remember, but uh, I have it written down, he has a web site that he owns and it's like GC uh, GCS or Sex Strea-, G, GS or GCSexstream dot com.
HIPP: GC sex
MARTINE: Str-
HIPP: Stream?
MARTINE: No, no, S-E-X uh, T-R-E
HIPP: T-R-E
MARTINE: A-M dot com, I think.
HIPP: Dot com, like that?
MARTINE: I, yeah I think.
GESI: That's Larry?
HIPP: G-C-S-E-X-T-R-E-A-M
MARTINE: I think that's correct.
HIPP: Dotcom.
MARTINE: Yes, I think that's correct. I have it at home, um.
GESI: And you can get it to us?
MARTINE: Yeah, I can get it if you guys need anything else.
GESI: Alright.
HIPP: Okay, how about other people, other associates that, that...
MARTINE: Like I said-
HIPP: ...played video games, like from around here.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:29 am

MARTINE: From around here, one of my friends uh, was a good friend that, with me that played him a couple of times that knew him and met him personally but didn't have a personal relationship with him like me and that name is Scott Bredingerd.
HIPP: Scott, I’m sorry?
MARTINE: Scott Bredingerd.
HIPP: How do you spell his Iast name?
MARTINE: B-R-E-G-E-D, I don't know, I can't.
HIPP: B-R-E-G
MARTINE: It's just all E's, I know it's Bredingerd.
HIPP: Breding-
MARTINE: Gerd.
GESI: Does he go here at Northglenn High?
MARTINE: Yes, he's in like most all of my classes.
GESI: And um, have you talked to him since this happened?
MARTINE: I talked to him the day after and he says, he's dealing with it a little bit better than I am because he didn't know him as, as personally as I did, but, um.
HIPP: Did this surprise you, what Eric did? Did it shock you and surprise you or?
MARTINE: Yeah, you don't, I mean you don't hear about someone going and doing this, that's not right, I mean even.
HIPP: No.
MARTINE: And, and, and, you know, I talked to him so much time, so many times and stuff and he seems like a kid that would never do this.
HIPP: How many times did you talk to him on, on the net, or on the phone, how many times you go out-
MARTINE: Phone wise, maybe once a, I don't know, when we were on the BBS, I talked to him about every day. When it got to the internet, he started saying he had things to do lately, he had a job at Domino's or something pizza and uh, then it just started going, I call him once a,
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:29 am

you know, there would be times when we would talk a lot, like during one month because of a deal that was going on or something that we were both interested in or something like the, the, the net party at uh Red Rocks.
GESI: What was uh, what was the content of your uh, conversation with him last week?
MARTINE: The conte-, uh, I, I was just asking him how things were going, you know, and he said they were going good, usually that's what you talk about and then he said uh, he was talking about music too that he was uh, liking the music that uh, the same music that I did and he said he had to go real quick.
GESI: Would you identify that as Gothic music?
MARTINE: Um, I don't know what Gothic music is, I don't know what they like.
GESI: Kind of, it's like, like about death. Sing a lot about death and violence.
MARTINE: Ramstein, yeah, you could say so. He said he really liked a song on the CD called Moral Combat and it was song number two and it's called-
HIPP: Mortal Combat?
MARTINE: Moral Combat and it was song number two and it's called Fire and he said he really liked that song.
GESI: Do, have you ever heard it?
MARTINE: Yeah, I have the CD.
GESI: What's it about?
MARTINE: I don't really listen to the lyrics, I just like the song because it just like, just the music in it and stuff how it goes.
GESI: Did you pick up any of the lyrics?
MARTINE: I never listen to lyrics unless it's a good song that I like, I mean I go from Yanni to anything that I personally like.
GESI: Okay. So it's Moral Combat, song number two and it's called Fire.
MARTINE: It's called Fire. That and the lyrics in it have like Fire in it and stuff.
GESI: Okay. What would he, would he talk to you uh, outside of uh, playing games? Anything about what would, now that you're thinking, hindsight.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:29 am

MARTINE: Yeah, school and stuff, you know, he said-
GESI: What would he say about school?
MARTINE: He said he was doing good in school earlier but now he's, he hasn't been doing so well, he doesn't know why he said, um, I told you he got in trouble with the law, he talked one time about the class, the philosophy class uh, he talked about a girl that I told you about, he-
HIPP: What was the girl's name?
MARTINE: I don't know the girl's personal name, a friend on the internet though said his friend, his friend's, uh, his friend's friend, which is the girl that uh, got, that denied him to go to prom I guess, there was a message posted on uh, this website that all of us local gamers go to and we've been talking about it, he uh, posted a message saying his friend's friend, which was the girl that denied him to prom or something, But I think that might have been the same girl, I'm not sure though I just remember him saying he got dumped by a girl or something.
HIPP: And he was really upset over that?
MARTINE: Um, he felt same like emotions that I do about, you know, not like [INAUDIBLE] girl, you know, you, you just are down by it, you, you don't like, you're not ate, you don't go like terrorizing, go mad about it, I mean, you just, you know, it's a depressing moment.
HIPP: You're just depressed about it.
MARTINE: Yeah.
HIPP: Okay.
GESI: Did he ever talk about his opinion one way or another about Blacks and Hispanics and?
MARTINE: Like I said, I, I, no he never talked like that to us.
GESI: Did he ever talk about Vodka's opinion of?
MARTINE: No. He never, he never related his stuff to Vodka, he always said that he just hung out with him and he liked him as a good friend, but he never related like.
GESI: How's-
MARTINE: Playing games or anything even with him but Vodka did play games once in a while,
GESI: Where was it that you met Vodka?
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:30 am

MARTINE: Um, I think it was the first time online which was on the BBS when he said uh, um, my friend's gonna play 'cause uh, he's here with me and I said what's his name, you know, and I think he even signed up on Mystical Realms, he signed up as uh, Vodka on there and uh, then the first time when I met uh, Reb, he brought his friend, which was Vodka, his friend and if I do remember correctly, when we did go up to Boulder, we parked in a parking lot and he dr-, he drove a BMW.
GESI: Who did?
MARTINE: Vodka. He said that he didn't drive, he said Vodka had to drive.
GESI: So Vodka drove a BMW that was his dad's or his own?
MARTINE: Um, I'm not so sure about that. I do remember him talking about how he said he wanted to get a nice car though 'cause I was talking to him about that.
GESI: Do you ever talk in chat rooms?
MARTINE: Depends on what you mean by chat rooms. I mean, there's numerous things on the net. We talked personally through AMI which is Instant Messenger, we talk back and forth, we talked on ICQ which is where you talk back and forth messagely and chat wise in like a local chat room, I don't, no, we never did except for on the bulletin board.
GESI: Alright.
MARTINE: On a bulletin board we-
HIPP: What's your, what's your name on the computer?
MARTINE: Jester, I use the screen name Jester.
HIPP: Screen name Jester?
MARTINE: I originally used Dork as um, from when I first started but I changed to Jester and I don't think he uh, knew me as Dork but I think that's right when he was coming in is when I changed my name.
GESI: Why did he acknowledge your name on his web site?
MARTINE: Because I told him how to help uh, I helped him, I helped like, I told him how to do some of the programming to build a web page, you know, like HTML to, to, to do that, like job, and I told him that uh, uh, I told him that uh, I like the, the format in which, how he did the, the colors and all that stuff and uh, he just gave me recognition 'cause I was his friend on the net,
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:30 am

GESI: Okay. Has any authority tried to contact you yet?
MARTINE: No, this is the first time.
GESI: Okay. Um, so as recent as last week, or any time, you never heard Eric mention the word uh, Trench Coat Mafia?
MARTINE; Never, And he-
GESI: So it's totally a surprise to you?
MARTINE: I remember him mentioning a clan that him and his friend was in but he never mentioned as a gang, a clique or Trench Coat Mafia.
GESI: So the fact that he would be a, a part of this surprises you?
MARTINE: Yes.
HIPP: Have you ever heard of this group before?
MARTINE: Never.
HIPP: This Trench Coat Mafia?
MARTINE: Never. But I've been hearing rumors all over on the net saying it's national wise and stuff, which is scaring me.
HIPP: This was after they, this or before that you heard rumor that there was?
MARTINE: After.
HIPP: Okay.
GESI: Anything that we should be concerned about locally that you're hearing?
MARTINE: No. But uh, I don't know how many other people on the internet want to help you guys, but I feel that they really should if they know anything but I could, I could give names but I don't know if they want me to or anything because I know a lot of people that were associates.
GESI: What kind of stuff do you think they would be able to give us up?
MARTINE: One, one guy has a CD that has um, a, made a CD directly, a, a full CD that has every single progra-, or every single like program that people uploaded to the BBS and uh, on that CD I'm sure there's levels that he's made and stuff on there.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:30 am

GESI: Well in light of uh, this tragedy, you coming forward, why don't you give us up that name and.
MARTINE: I don't know it right now, it's Chase is his first name, he goes to CSU, I mean, other people have the CD though, uh, it's not just him, it was a, a BBS CD that anyone could buy, I-
GESI: Can you get it for, do you think you could grab it off the internet?
MARTINE: Um, grabbing it off the internet, I don't have the speed access to get it. I asked him if he would put it online for me so I could see if there's anything on there that I could get for help but uh, he said that he would be willing to cooperate and do that but uh, otherwise the best thing to do is just actually personally get the CD to check on because there's a, I mean, billions of files on that CD that have-
GESI: So you said who would be willing to do that, this name?
HIPP: Where would I get this CD at?
MARTINE: The CD uh, personally, um, you can probably get it from Chase, I can't remember his last name, I'm not sure. I, I can get it for you though, I talked to him the other night, he uses the handle Spicel or right now he's using Fara-, Fahrenheit, he used Spicel earlier.
GESI: And he'd be willing to uh, cooperate [INAUDIBLE]
MARTINE: I think he probably would be, yes.
GESI: Okay.
MARTINE: There's other people too that have that CD that might be well, as well.
HIPP: How about other names of people, you want to, you want me to give you my card and my phone numbers and give it to them or do you want to give me some-
MARTINE: Um, uh, if, yeah, if you want to give me a card, I'll talk to all the people I know tonight and uh, see if they want to help you guys out any way.
GESI: You need to talk with people that you think would forward?
MARTINE: Some of 'em, yes, some of 'em don't want to be i-, uh, issue with it just because of the fact that they only knew him a little bit and they don't, they really [INAUDIBLE]
GESI: They really don't have anything?
MARTINE: Yeah.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:30 am

HIPP: Any of 'em you think were, anybody you can think of that would give us, uh.
MARTINE: There's one person that I can't get a hold of that I know maybe would be a little bit more help too. He used the name Automac on the internet. I don't, he, I haven't seen him on in a long time. He um, he knew him a little bit because on the ladder board-
HIPP: Automat?
MARTINE: Automatic.
HIPP: Ma-, matic.
MARTINE: It's O-T-T-O
HIPP: O-T-T-O
MARTINE: Matic, M-A-T-l-K I think he spelt it. And, and uh, he, he knew him okay and he ran the ladders which were the things where if you beat someone you went up on the ladder to go to the top and um, he's the only other person that I know of that would maybe know something.
GESI: Main thing that we're looking at, other than additional information is anybody out there that uh, might be an associate of these guys that we need to be made aware of that might have shared the same, uh, it seems like you were, I mean you guys had a certain level of relationship but there's obviously some things that Eric didn't share with you. Agree?
MARTINE: Share with me [INAUDBLE] yeah.
GESI: Okay.
MARTINE: Uh, he didn't share some stuff with me.
GESI: So maybe there's some other people though that um, are, are definitely more at the level he was, where you're not. And those are the ones that we need to know about, just in case [INAUDIBLE]-
MARTINE: I talked to a person last night on 9News chat that said they knew him real well and met him downtown that said he was gonna go to authorities or something but he, he, I was talking, I got his e-mail address, he said that he knew him really well and he knew that he had pipe bombs and he had seen ‘em down in the basement or something.
GESI: And who was that?
MARTINE: Uh, he used the name uh, uh [redacted] or something, [redacted] on the internet and it was on 9News Chat and uh, I have his e-mail address at home.
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PostSubject: Re: Brandon Martine's Interview FBI Documents Pages 1133-1222   Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:30 am

GESI: And you can, can you go online to try to get some more info on him?
MARTINE: On him?
GESI: M-m h-m-m.
MARTINE: I don't know him, uh, I just know his e-mail address.
GESI: That's what I mean.
HIPP: [INAUDIBLE]
GESI: Can you, can you communicate with him and?
MARTINE: I can communicate with him, I think, I can e-mail him and he'll e-mail me back. I gave him my address. I'll give it to you guys if you need it.
GESI: You have his e-mail?
MARTINE: 'Cause I don't know him. Yeah his e-mail address.
GESI: Yeah, we would like the, you, you'll have to get it at home?
MARTINE: Um, yes.
GESI: Or do you have it in your head?
MARTINE: I don't have it. Uh, it was um, ev-, uh, [redacted] I think but I don't know if there's any numbers in it, there might be some numbers. I can get it.
GESI: Why don't you call us with it if you could.
HIPP: You can leave it on, my machine if I don’t answer or you can page me.
MARTINE: Okay.
HIPP: There's my pager on the back.
MARTINE: Okay.
HIPP: I don't think I have anything else. Anything else?
MARTINE: Uh, not that I know.
HIPP: Okay, we'll conclude, and the time's uh, 12:22.
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