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 Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids

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hate99

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PostSubject: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:39 pm

My opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:09 pm

Your avatar is pretty sick there, dude.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:03 am

Angsty? More to Eric who had temper issues. Edgy? No they were not. Do people these days think being into homicide and dark things make them edgy though? Yes. But once you actually commit murder, you're no longer edgy.

Eric and Dylan were alot of things. Once you think you've concluded something about them it goes much deeper.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:03 am

I think they were more than just edgy kids, considering what they did.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:23 am

@hate99 what makes believe them to be angsty and edgy? I'm not trying be argumentative, so please don't take it that way. I'll save my personal assessments of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:23 pm

@hate99 What made you choose your profile pic?
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:03 pm

Edgy is a teen wearing a t-shirt that says "f*ck you"

Eric and Dylan were mentally unstable teens who murdered their classmates.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:48 am

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I sorta get what you're saying. It's a matter of personal opinion based on observations and I'll elaborate that here.

Despite the murders, Eric and Dylan were incredibly insecure. I mean, they couldn't look kids in the eye and then kill them and they mostly shot under tables without looking to see who was underneath. Their aim was abysmal if it wasn't close range and they were incredibly inexperienced with their weapons. None of the people they killed were bullies or jocks and when they actually encountered a kid in a white cap, they merely taunted him and let him live. They also committed suicide tucked into a far corner of the library when Eric originally wanted to die by engaging police. Imo I think they were scared because they knew they were surrounded and were afraid to die at the hands of the SWAT team that had just entered the building minutes before.

There are also other subjective examples. Such as their horrible attempts at badassery in their videos (Hitmen for Hire) and their cringey choice of attire. Post-Columbine a mere article of clothing (the trenchcoat) became an iconic running joke and a one-word euphemism for school shootings.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:13 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Despite the murders, Eric and Dylan were incredibly insecure. I mean, they couldn't look kids in the eye and then kill them and they mostly shot under tables without looking to see who was underneath.
For the most part, sure. There were others that made direct eye contact with both E&D before they were ultimately shot. Daniel Mauser being one of them when he fought back against Eric before being shot twice and killed. Patti Nelson also recalled Eric having turned and glanced at her with a smile before shooting through the glass door entrance, wounding her and another student. Eric had also decided to mess with Cassie Bernall by making it seem as though he skipped the table she was hiding underneath in before he knelt down on the other side and said "peek-a-boo" before shooting her. Those were a few examples on why E&D had no problems emotionally terrorizing, leave alone looking at their victims before ending their lives.

Quote :
None of the people they killed were bullies or jocks
Isaiah Shoels was an athlete. Though, Brooks Brown did mention that a jock wasn't necessarily someone who played sports, but could also be a person who believes that simply just because they wear nice clothes or are apart of a popular inner circle that they are above everyone else.

Quote :
and when they actually encountered a kid in a white cap, they merely taunted him and let him live.
Ivan Todd, who I might add hasn't changed from being the asshole he was at Columbine. A year after the shooting, he went on record to say that E&D were "fags" that were bullied simply because they (being Ivan Todd and the rest of the jocks) wanted to get rid of them. Years after that, he did another interview claiming that he confronted Dylan during the shooting and told him that because he "treated them right" (lol) that he deserved to live. And, according to him, Dylan had no words before walking away. This was bullshit to make himself look good for the cameras as we found out from the transcripts that Dylan taunted and made fun a frightened Ivan Todd before allowing him to live on a whim.

Quote :
I think they were scared because they knew they were surrounded and were afraid to die at the hands of the SWAT team.
Arguable. There was no fear of death between the two on that day. Columbine was also a suicide mission. They planned to take their own lives. Sure, Eric mentioned how he wanted to continue killing until he was taken out by the police in his journal... but that was in his journal. He wrote down a lot of shit to make himself seem like a hard ass to agitate the reader. (Keep in mind, Eric wrote in his journal for an intended audience). E&D did what they wanted to do (even though the bombing had failed) and that was murder people in retaliation for the abuse they received in those four years. Whether if it was by the cops or themselves it didn't matter as they ultimately wanted to die.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:57 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
My opinion.
Lanza was a sick demented freak.

I'd know, I've spoken to him before.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:22 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
My opinion.
Lanza was a sick demented freak.

I'd know, I've spoken to him before.
What makes you call him a sick demented freak based on speaking to him?

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:04 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
My opinion.
Lanza was a sick demented freak.

I'd know, I've spoken to him before.
What makes you call him a sick demented freak based on speaking to him?
Because he talked sexually about children.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:19 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Lanza was a sick demented freak.

I'd know, I've spoken to him before.
What makes you call him a sick demented freak based on speaking to him?
Because he talked sexually about children.
What did he say? I know he said that there should be no age of consent and developed a reputation as a pedophile but I  don't know how that started because the earliest posts were missing. I didn't really see him speaking sexually about children,  just the accusations and jokes later on.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Lanza was a sick demented freak.

I'd know, I've spoken to him before.
What makes you call him a sick demented freak based on speaking to him?
Because he talked sexually about children.
What did he say? I know he said that there should be no age of consent and developed a reputation as a pedophile but I  don't know how that started because the earliest posts were missing. I didn't really see him speaking sexually about children,  just the accusations and jokes later on.
He talked about how enjoyed fondling young boys and it was deleted because it was so disturbing.

At the time though I thought he was trolling, that was until he actually went out and killed a whole bunch of children and teachers.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:37 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

He talked about how enjoyed fondling young boys and it was deleted because it was so disturbing.

At the time though I thought he was trolling, that was until he actually went out and killed a whole bunch of children and teachers.
Do you happen to remember the context and exactly what he said? It seems like it would be hard to sneak that into a conversation but he managed to make a joke about castrating himself when discussing body modification so I am curious what prompted his comments about fondling little boys.

You believe that he was actually a pedophile and that's why he targeted children?

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:48 pm

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You believe that he was actually a pedophile and that's why he targeted children?
Yep, exactly this. After Ivan told me about the kinds of "jokes" that Lanza made on the old forum, and I read about the supposed story he wrote about pedophilia, I told Ivan that I believed the reason he killed children was because he was sexually attracted to them and probably didn't want to be. Honestly, what pedophile wants to be a pedophile? I told Ivan that is what I thought the motive was behind it a few years ago but I never really said anything publicly about that because I don't have any solid proof. He never actually said he was one but when I put it all together in my head, I just felt like that made perfect sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

He talked about how enjoyed fondling young boys and it was deleted because it was so disturbing.

At the time though I thought he was trolling, that was until he actually went out and killed a whole bunch of children and teachers.
Do you happen to remember the context and exactly what he said? It seems like it would be hard to sneak that into a conversation but he managed to make a joke about castrating himself when discussing body modification so I am curious what prompted his comments about fondling little boys.

You believe that he was actually a pedophile and that's why he targeted children?
Nothing really prompted it which is why it was so disturbing...

And yes, I do believe he was a pedophile and that perhaps his Mom found out about his sick fantasies and was going to do something about it so he acted out, killed her and then acted out another sick fantasy in his head -- going on a shooting spree.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:18 pm

I have definitely heard the pedophile theory before. It seemed to be one of the main theories when this first happened because no one could understand why he might target children. Lanza did have a book about the Amish schoolhouse shooting with the pedophile perpetrator in his bedroom but I don't really believe that he was a pedophile and I think that there were probably other reasons that he chose to attack his mother and the elementary school. He certainly didn't do much to help himself if he was not trying to come off as a pedophile on the forum though.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:44 pm


I still do not understand why he targeted children.

He did go to that school when he was younger though - is that another reason why he targeted it?


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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:28 am

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I still do not understand why he targeted children.

He did go to that school when he was younger though - is that another reason why he targeted it?
Quite honestly, there is too little information available to say for sure because Adam apparently didn't want anyone to know why he did anything he did. I think the pedophile theory is still a realistic possibility but I know for sure that it was a useful logistical decision based on a few factors.

Adam ranked his list of mass murderers by number of kills and investigators believe that he was trying to outdo the murderers on his list. A very simple truth is that children are easy targets. Targeting children would enable him to achieve a higher death count. Adam was also weak and frail and he was set on committing suicide. Targeting children made it extremely unlikely that someone would attempt to charge him or be able to overtake him if they did. In a room full of teenagers, anyone who was brave enough would certainly have been physically capable of tackling him if he had any issues while reloading and he would lose his chance to die and end up in jail for life. Finally, as you mentioned, he went to the school himself. He was familiar with the layout and the fact that there were classrooms only a few dozen feet away from the entrance. He knew the lobby had a large glass window and when he shot through it, he would have instant access to the school without worrying about security officers that would likely be present at a high school. People watch out for this sort of thing at high schools these days but no one could possibly have anticipated an adult coming into an elementary school to massacre people with a rifle.

There might have been unknown personal reasons for choosing the school but his father said that Adam considered his years there to be some of the happiest times in his life so I doubt there was any ongoing grudge based on his own childhood experiences at the school.

As I see it, there are two other possible factors that have to do with the public response he anticipated. Killing children that young would be more horrifying and inexplicable to the general public and he wanted to make an impression. Also, he may have wanted to distance himself from the Columbine shooting to avoid being called a copycat. Maybe he wanted to be known for doing something notoriously horrendous and he didn't want people to think that he was just another school shooter lashing out at the place where he was bullied, dying in Eric and Dylan's shadow.

It's even possible that he really did have a fixation with the idea of specifically killing children. If the Youtube account belonged to him, he frequently brought up the topic of dead children. On his computer they found a written document about being attacked by babies and efforts to defend against them. Maybe the death of children had some symbolic meaning to him, maybe it was an obsessive, intrusive thought, maybe it was a political statement, maybe it was a pedophilic compulsion. As I said, I think there is a lot of room for speculation and no way to know for sure because he wanted it that way, so I generally prefer to go with the explanations that make practical sense to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:41 am

Do you think that Adam Lanza related his own life/experience with Travis the Chimp?

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He talks about civilization/society causing Travis to attack.

He relates Travis to a teenage mall shooter.





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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:44 am

Part 1.
--------------------------------------
Yes they were, albeit they went beyond typical teenager angst.
Typical teenage angst revolves around the idea that they are unique/ they are different from "normies." and that the ideas they think of are different and special.
This rebellion is most likely a result of what teenagers do when they hit puberty, establish an identity. And in establishing an identity its important to establish an "other" i.e "normies"
its purpose being an entity to differentiate themselves from and as a reference to gauge how unique they are.
Hence why we cant self love without also thinking "i'm so glad i'm me and not somebody else (the other)"
This is also why teens have a tendency to fall into extreme ideologies such as say marxism or anarcho-.
Plus the frustrations of being a teen such as getting a job, finding a collage, not being a social reject in HS help to fuel this angst.
But in reality most teens wouldn't even think of turning their angst-fueled fantasies into a reality, thus keeping it in.

Back on topic, by that definition yes they were angst lords. But they went beyond what is considered the norm by acting out on their fantasies.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:57 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Do you think that Adam Lanza related his own life/experience with Travis the Chimp?

He talks about civilization/society causing Travis to attack.

Definitely. I'm from the area and no one else was talking about the incident in such detail. The chatter was "The monkey attacked because the woman dyed her hair and was on meds" and "why would someone have a chimp for a pet? She should go to jail." End of analysis, and it quickly became yesterday's news. It was a big story for maybe a week because it was so bizarre, but nothing people followed up on. It looks like Adam read everything about Travis he could find and the story remained on his mind for years. His call to the radio show was almost three years after the incident and one year before Sandy Hook.

Adam seemingly knew every detail of the incident (though he might have cherry picked), and explained away the chimps behavior. The fact that he's read into Travis' story and can speak at great length about it is revealing. He humanizes Travis to a great extent and (imo) embellishes or is misinformed about how 'out and about' Travis was with the tow company. In all probability, Adam related to Travis' limited expressive and social abilities, stress levels, being on medication, and perhaps even his poor diet. While everyone else in Stamford, CT had moved on from the story of the local exotic pet "predictably" turning on its owner, Adam was busy psychoanalyzing it.

To his credit, Adam drew some intriguing parallels between Travis and over-stressed, mentally handicapped children. At the very least, he raised some thought-provoking questions. He's right that the community was dismissive. After every similar tragedy or mass murder, it seems people want to declare "monster!" and thus reconcile the issue in their own mind. At the same time, and oblivious to the irony, many of these same people pay lip service to understanding mental health as a way of preventing future incidents.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:11 pm


Here is the transcript of that call Adam made:

JOHN ZERZAN: Here we go... hello. We got the collapsible headphones here but, uh, we’re back.

SHOW RUNNER: [Unintelligible]... we’ve got Greg on the phone.

ZERZAN: Oh, Greg, okay, how’s it going?

ADAM LANZA: Hi, good. Um. I’m a fan of your writing. Um.

ZERZAN: Thank you.

LANZA: I’m sorry to mess up such an old news story but I couldn’t find anything that you said about the topic, and it seems relevant to your interests, so I thought I would bring up Travis the Chimp, do you remember him?

ZERZAN: I don’t!

LANZA: Well, he was the highly domesticated chimpanzee who lived in a suburban home in Stamford, Connecticut.

SHOW RUNNER: Oh, yeah.

ZERZAN: Oh.

LANZA: And he was raised just like a human child, starting from the week he was born. By the time that he was fourteen years old, which would be somewhere around age twenty in human years.

ZERZAN: Uh-huh.

LANZA: um, he slept in a bed, he took his own baths, he dressed himself, he brushed his teeth with an electric toothbrush.

ZERZAN: [laughs] Really? When was this?

LANZA: Um. Well, this happened in early 2009.

ZERZAN: Oh.

SHOW RUNNER: Oh.

LANZA: Um.

ZERZAN: Uh-huh?

LANZA: He ate his meals at a table and enjoyed human foods like ice cream and he used a remote control to watch television and liked baseball games. And he even used a computer to look at pictures on the internet.

ZERZAN: Huh!

LANZA: And, [chuckles] it goes without saying that Travis was very overweight. He was two hundred pounds when he should have been around the low hundreds.

ZERZAN: Mmhm.

LANZA: And he was actually taking Xanax.

SHOW RUNNER: [laughs]

ZERZAN: Amazing.

LANZA: I couldn’t find any information about why he was taking it, but it just seems to say a lot that he was given it at all. And, basically, I think Travis wasn’t really any different than a mentally handicapped human child.

ZERZAN: Hmm.

LANZA: But anyway, one day in February 2009, he was acting very agitated, and at some point grabbed the car, his owner’s car keys, went outside and started beeping from car to car, apparently wanting to go for a car ride, and he was acting very aggressively, so his owner called her friend over to get her to help him to calm down and go back inside, and once she arrived he immediately attacked her and his owner tried to stop him but couldn’t and she even resorted to stabbing him with a knife, but nothing worked. And she said that after she stabbed him he looked at her as if to say, “Why’d you do that to me, Mom?” Because apparently that was what the relationship was like, no different than between a human mother and a human child.

ZERZAN: Hmm.

LANZA: So after the stabbing, she called the police, who arrived twelve minutes after the attack, at which point her friend was pretty close to dead. And once the cruiser came up, Travis went over to it, tried to open the locked passenger door. He smashed off the side-view mirror, went over to the driver’s door, opened it, and the cop shot him. He fled back into the house, where he went to his playroom and bled to death.

ZERZAN: Hmm...

LANZA: And um, [chuckles] this might not seem very relevant, but I’m bringing it up because afterward, everyone was condemning his owner for saying how irresponsible she was for raising a chimp like it was a child. And that she should have known something like this would happen, because chimps aren’t supposed to be living in civilization, they’re supposed to be living in the wild, among each other.

ZERZAN: Mhmm.

LANZA: But, their criticism stops there and the implication is that there’s no way anything could have gone wrong in his life if he had been living in this civilization as a human rather than a chimp.

ZERZAN: Ah, indeed.

LANZA: I’m so interested in Travis, um, because he brings up questions about this whole process of child-raising. Um.

ZERZAN: Yeah.

LANZA: Civilization isn’t something which just happens to gently exist without us having to do anything, because every newborn child, human child, is born in a chimp-like state, and civilization is only sustained by conditioning them for years on end so that they’ll accept it for what it is. And since we’ve gone through this conditioning, we can observe a human family raising a human child, and I’m sure that even you have trouble intuitively seeing it as something unnatural, but when we see a chimp in that position, we visually know that there’s something profoundly wrong with the situation. And it’s easy to say there’s something wrong with it simply because it’s a chimp, but what’s the real difference between us and our closest relatives? Travis wasn’t an untamed monster at all. Um, he wasn’t just feigning domestication, he was civilized. Um, he was able to integrate into society, he was a chimp actor when he was younger, and his owner drove him around the city frequently in association with her towing business, where he met many different people, and got along with everyone. If Travis had been some nasty monster all his life, it would have been widely reported, but to the contrary, it seems like everyone who knew him said how shocked they were that Travis had been so savage, because they knew him as a sweet child. And there were two isolated incidents early in his life when he acted aggressively, but summarizing them would take too long, so basically I’ll just say that he didn’t act really any differently than a human child would, and the people who would use that as an indictment against having chimps live as humans do wouldn’t apply the same thing to humans, so it’s just kind of irrelevant.

ZERZAN: Mhmm.

LANZA: But anyway, look what civilization did to him: it had the same exact effect on him as it has on humans. He was profoundly sick, in every sense of the term, and he had to resort to these surrogate activities like watching baseball, and looking at pictures on a computer screen, and taking Xanax. He was a complete mess.

ZERZAN: Mhm.

LANZA: And his attack wasn’t simply because he was a senselessly violent, impulsive chimp. Um, which was how his behavior was universally portrayed. Um, immediately before his attack, he had desperately been wanting his owner to drive him somewhere, and the best reason I can think of for why he would want that, looking at his entire life, would be that some little thing he experienced was the last straw, and he was overwhelmed by the life that he had, and he wanted to get out of it by changing his environment, and the best way that he knew how to deal with that was by getting his owner to drive him somewhere else.

ZERZAN: Yeah.

LANZA: And when his owner’s, owner’s friend arrived, he knew that she was trying to coax him back into his life of domestication, and he couldn’t handle that, so he attacked her, and anyone else who approached them. And dismissing his attack as simply being the senseless violence and impulsiveness of a chimp, instead of a human, is wishful thinking at best.

ZERZAN: Mmm-hmm.

LANZA: His attack can be seen entirely parallel to the attacks and random acts of violence that you bring up on your show every week

ZERZAN: Mmm...

LANZA: committed by humans, which the mainstream also has no explanation for, and

ZERZAN: No.

LANZA: and actual humans. I just don’t think it would be such a stretch to say that he very well could have been a teenage mall shooter or something like that.

ZERZAN: Yeah, yeah.

LANZA: And

ZERZAN: Wow. Thank you, Greg.

LANZA: Yeah, I

ZERZAN: That’s quite a story. Yeah, that’s, uh, really apropos, isn’t it.

LANZA: Yeah.

ZERZAN: Travis the Chimp.

LANZA: It’s just that I’m a little surprised that I never heard you bring it up at all because [chuckles] maybe I’m just seeing connections where there aren’t any, but

ZERZAN: Not, I think not, no, I just, I didn’t catch that one, I didn’t, uh, maybe I was out of the country or something, I don’t know but I missed it. Thanks very much, man.

LANZA: Thank you. Bye.

ZERZAN: Take care. Wow. Very well articulated, I think. Okay, well, uh, uh, I guess we better move on
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:13 pm


The part that Adam relates to I think is this:

Civilization isn’t something which just happens to gently exist without us having to do anything, because every newborn child, human child, is born in a chimp-like state, and civilization is only sustained by conditioning them for years on end so that they’ll accept it for what it is. And since we’ve gone through this conditioning, we can observe a human family raising a human child, and I’m sure that even you have trouble intuitively seeing it as something unnatural, but when we see a chimp in that position, we visually know that there’s something profoundly wrong with the situation. And it’s easy to say there’s something wrong with it simply because it’s a chimp, but what’s the real difference between us and our closest relatives? Travis wasn’t an untamed monster at all. Um, he wasn’t just feigning domestication, he was civilized. Um, he was able to integrate into society, he was a chimp actor when he was younger, and his owner drove him around the city frequently in association with her towing business, where he met many different people, and got along with everyone. If Travis had been some nasty monster all his life, it would have been widely reported, but to the contrary, it seems like everyone who knew him said how shocked they were that Travis had been so savage, because they knew him as a sweet child. And there were two isolated incidents early in his life when he acted aggressively, but summarizing them would take too long, so basically I’ll just say that he didn’t act really any differently than a human child would, and the people who would use that as an indictment against having chimps live as humans do wouldn’t apply the same thing to humans, so it’s just kind of irrelevant. But anyway, look what civilization did to him: it had the same exact effect on him as it has on humans. He was profoundly sick, in every sense of the term, and he had to resort to these surrogate activities like watching baseball, and looking at pictures on a computer screen, and taking Xanax. He was a complete mess. And his attack wasn’t simply because he was a senselessly violent, impulsive chimp. Um, which was how his behavior was universally portrayed. Um, immediately before his attack, he had desperately been wanting his owner to drive him somewhere, and the best reason I can think of for why he would want that, looking at his entire life, would be that some little thing he experienced was the last straw, and he was overwhelmed by the life that he had, and he wanted to get out of it by changing his environment, and the best way that he knew how to deal with that was by getting his owner to drive him somewhere else. And when his owner’s, owner’s friend arrived, he knew that she was trying to coax him back into his life of domestication, and he couldn’t handle that, so he attacked her, and anyone else who approached them. And dismissing his attack as simply being the senseless violence and impulsiveness of a chimp, instead of a human, is wishful thinking at best. His attack can be seen entirely parallel to the attacks and random acts of violence that you bring up on your show every week, committed by humans, which the mainstream also has no explanation for. I just don’t think it would be such a stretch to say that he very well could have been a teenage mall shooter or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:58 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The part that Adam relates to I think is this...
I think you're probably right and I think there are also some statements here which I still wonder about.

These bits in particular stand out to me as Adam possibly referring to himself and how people might react if he went on a killing spree.
Adam Lanza wrote:
[E]very newborn child, human child, is born in a chimp-like state, and civilization is only sustained by conditioning them for years on end so that they’ll accept it for what it is
...
Travis wasn’t an untamed monster at all. Um, he wasn’t just feigning domestication, he was civilized. Um, he was able to integrate into society...If Travis had been some nasty monster all his life, it would have been widely reported, but to the contrary, it seems like everyone who knew him said how shocked they were that Travis had been so savage, because they knew him as a sweet child.
...
But anyway, look what civilization did to him: it had the same exact effect on him as it has on humans. He was profoundly sick, in every sense of the term, and he had to resort to these surrogate activities like watching baseball, and looking at pictures on a computer screen, and taking Xanax. He was a complete mess. And his attack wasn’t simply because he was a senselessly violent, impulsive chimp. Um, which was how his behavior was universally portrayed.
...
And dismissing his attack as simply being the senseless violence and impulsiveness of a chimp, instead of a human, is wishful thinking at best. His attack can be seen entirely parallel to the attacks and random acts of violence that you bring up on your show every week, committed by humans, which the mainstream also has no explanation for. I just don’t think it would be such a stretch to say that he very well could have been a teenage mall shooter or something like that.

The attempt at an explanation of Travis' attack is more ambiguous to me. It makes me wonder if he was referring to himself and, if so, how it applied to his own life.
Adam Lanza wrote:
Um, immediately before his attack, he had desperately been wanting his owner to drive him somewhere, and the best reason I can think of for why he would want that, looking at his entire life, would be that some little thing he experienced was the last straw, and he was overwhelmed by the life that he had, and he wanted to get out of it by changing his environment, and the best way that he knew how to deal with that was by getting his owner to drive him somewhere else. And when his owner’s, owner’s friend arrived, he knew that she was trying to coax him back into his life of domestication, and he couldn’t handle that, so he attacked her, and anyone else who approached them.
What was Adam's last straw? Did Adam hope to escape his life of domestication? I can't figure out if his explanation here is projection of some of his own feelings or whether he is strictly referring to Travis's attack. We know that earlier in the call, Adam characterized Travis and his owner's relationship as that of mother and son, so is Adam trying to say something about his relationship with Nancy here? Did he want something from her that she couldn't give him? Was she trying to get him to do something that he didn't want to do? I think it's likely that I'm over-analyzing this but it probably still applies to his life in a broader sense, in that he was overwhelmed by his life as human who was not equipped to handle life in this society and that something had to give.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do you think that Adam Lanza related his own life/experience with Travis the Chimp?
I have listened to the call many times and I believe that to Adam, Travis was a perfect example of how the influence of modern human society can drive an otherwise healthy creature to illness and even to a violent breakdown. I think he was certainly talking about himself and possibly even other mass shooters, while also attempting to illustrate that Travis' attack was an indication that humans are overly saturated in cultural conditioning that does more harm than good because we are living a lifestyle that we were never meant to live. I think he applied it to himself but I believe that he was applying this concept to all of modern society, with Travis (and mass shooters like himself) being an example of the most extreme sort of reaction to society's ills.

Adam directly addressed this concept in what seems to be his final post on the Columbine forum.
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I could go in a hundred different ways with this, but I'll try to make it as entirely relevant to AS55's post as I can, instead of rambling about chimpanzees and who-knows-what-else.

Columbine wasn't an isolated incident: it was the apex of a string of school shootings which began increasing with Lu Gang and Wayne Lo in the early 1990s. Despite American students committing fewer school shootings in 2000-2009 than they did in 1990-1999, the rate of attempts actually increased beyond their pre-Columbine level. Columbine caused Americans to begin taking the potential for school shootings seriously, and thus many attempts which were expected to have been carried out have instead been prevented. And since 1999, there has been an increase in foreign school massacres committed in countries where, as Sabratha's Bullet Time phrases it, there isn't the "operational history" of Columbine.

In any event, it's myopic to telescope on school shootings when they've comprised a small percentage of the larger trend of mass murders, which are carried out in all sorts of contexts; but they always occur in contexts which involve some permutation of alienation, which has been part and parcel with societal "progress". This relationship can be seen with the Chinese mass stabbings. There were some sparse incidents throughout the 20th century, but the rate began to rise in the 1990s and erupted in the early 2000s, corresponding to China's rapid "economic development", culminating in the infamous spate of elementary school stabbings of 2010.

American mass murders were less prevalent before Richard Speck precipitated their rise in 1966. My best estimate for the -absolute- minimum amount of mass murders in the US since 1966 is 960. I would be surprised if there weren't a minimum of somewhere around 1500 in reality, but we'll just vaguely say that there have been over 1000. If you were trying to measure alienation in a society, what could be a more blatant indication? And it's glib to dismiss them as not being indicative of anything just because there have been over a thousand of them instead of over a hundred thousand, or however many you think are necessary, because mass murdering is so ridiculously over-the-top of a response that very few people are prone to do it under any circumstances. But just look at how many fans you can find for all different types of mass murderers ”not just the Reb & VoDkA bunch”, and beyond these fans are countless more people who can sympathize with them; and beyond these are millions more who never think of relating the circumstances of their lives to anyone else but instead just go through the motions of life incessantly dissatisfied with their environment.

Thinking of this society as the default state of existence is the reason why you think that humans would be "not well" for "no reason whatsoever". Civilization has not been present for 99% of the existence of hominids, and the only way that it's ever sustained is by indoctrinating each new child for years on end. The "wellness" that you speak of is solely defined by a child's submission to this process and their subsequent capacity to propagate civilization themselves. When civilization exists in a form where all forms of alienation (among many other things) are rampant, as can be seen in the most recent incarnation within the last fifty years which AS55 talked about, new children will end up "not well" in all sorts of ways. You don't even have to touch a topic as cryptic as mass murder to see an indication of this: you can look at a single symptom as egregious as the proliferation of antidepressants. And look in your own life. You've said that you're afflicted by unrelenting anxiety and that you're afraid to leave your house. Do you really think that the way you feel is not symptomatic of anything other than your own inexplicable defectiveness?

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(You can see that he repeated almost word for word what he previously stated to Zerzan about sustaining society through indoctrination of children and that he included a link to a text written by Zerzan which details evidence of the psychological damage that modern society may be causing to humanity).

Adam said that society makes people sick so it's hard to figure out whether he believed that he was only impaired because he lived in society that was not suited to humanity. He says that Travis "wasn't really any different than a mentally handicapped human child," so did he see himself as a handicapped or dysfunctional human being that snapped because he was more vulnerable to society's harmful influence than others or did he see himself as a normal primate that was forced into a lifestyle that he was incapable of dealing with, which is what made him dysfunctional? I don't know that but I do know that he said he should have been born as a chimp and would have preferred to live in a hunter gatherer society, so I assume that he believed that he would have been okay if he had not been born into this modern human society.

I wonder whether Adam's attack was truly related to anything he said about society and if so, did he think he was so damaged by society that the attack was an inevitable consequence which he was ultimately not wholly responsible for (as in a chimp attacking humans because he was forced to live as a human)? Or did he feel that he was consciously choosing to be responsible for an attack on society, to strike back at the system that he perceived to be harming him, choosing an elementary school because it was a symbol of cultural and societal indoctrination?

I know that as usual, I have probably written way more than anyone will bother to read but apparently, I can't help it. I blame my cultural conditioning. monkey

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:36 am


Very interesting post sscc.

Some great points as to why Adam did what he did.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:15 am

I know that this whole conversation was completely off-topic for the thread but I was thinking about it and I wanted to add something to what I brought up before.

An answer to the question of whether Adam saw himself as out of the ordinary is implied in something he wrote three days before the shooting.
Adam Lanza wrote:
I didn’t really look at the emails you sent earlier, so I guess I ought to respond now. About the Chinese mass stabbers, they blend together in my mind too much for me to say much. Although I guess that should make it even easier to talk about them…I don’t know. Who am I to even say anything on the topic? The inexplicable mystery to me isn’t how there are massacres, but rather how there aren’t 100,000 of them every year. So when it comes to rates and such, causes and consequences, domestic or forging (sic), in whatever context, I’m just going to be completely making things up because I apparently don’t understand any of it.
Even if this comment was slightly sarcastic, he seemed to think that mass murder should be a lot more common than it actually is. This suggests to me that he did not perceive himself to be much different from the average person (not a "nasty monster") and because of this, he couldn't figure out why everyone wasn't going postal. It sounds as though he saw mass killing as entirely caused by external factors and thought of his own massacre as an inevitability. It's possible that he did recognize his decline in functioning but attributed it to societal influence rather than his own "inexplicable defectiveness."

Obviously, the answer to his mystery is that he was an anomaly. Most people, even those that are completely dissatisfied with their lives or the society in which they live, do not consider harming others. Even if they do consider lashing out, they value their lives, even unhappy lives with little hope for improvement, over death (or jail). This is not something that happens 100,000 times a year because it requires a rare mixture of external and internal factors for a person to go through with a mass murder spree.

I think some other quotes from the forum help to illustrate the type of mindset that can push someone to carry out such an attack. Constant depression and an inability to appreciate life as it is are the dominant themes.
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November 1 2011
"Self" is a delusion and life cannot be anything other than suffering.

December 11 2011
I spent all day ruminating over how much I hate culture. Now I've calmed down and am left lying on the floor, numbly perplexed over the foreign concept of loving life.

December 25 2011
I hate going through these extremely rare instances of wild mood swings that I have. I think this was the only time this year for me. I was as depressed as I get during my last post, and I'm fine with the interminable depression that I normally have, but now I'm incoherently giddy with glee. Well, relative to my baseline... Except now that I'm giddy, I can't really say that I hate it because I think everything is delightful.

If depressives cut themselves to feel better, I wonder what cutting a happy-go-lucker would do. Santa's supposed to be jolly. I hope he visits me tonight so I can find out.

December 30 2011
I hate how I spend 99% of my time upset about culture, when life itself is the problem. Culture just adds insult to injury.

February 26 2012
I hate how life-apologists say (or rather, the very few of them who do anything other than mock you), "Life isn't all suffering. What about the simple pleasures, like eating ice  cream?"

They always use that example. Even if I didn't recognize the flaws in their assertion, when  I think of ice cream, I can only see a repugnant lump of pus crushed out of cows' bloody nipples, who spend their entire lives confined in filth, where they're periodically raped so that they're incessantly pregnant, after which their calves are seized from them, destined to live the life of veal, with their only relief being an early death. From there, I always ride the pessimism train down different tracks until it inevitably leads me to contemplating over 500 million years of animals cannibalizing each other. Excuse me for not being thrilled by the extra jimmies on my ice cream cone.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan were just angsty edgy kids   Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:55 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
An answer to the question of whether Adam saw himself as out of the ordinary is implied in something he wrote three days before the shooting.
Adam Lanza wrote:
I didn’t really look at the emails you sent earlier, so I guess I ought to respond now. About the Chinese mass stabbers, they blend together in my mind too much for me to say much. Although I guess that should make it even easier to talk about them…I don’t know. Who am I to even say anything on the topic? The inexplicable mystery to me isn’t how there are massacres, but rather how there aren’t 100,000 of them every year. So when it comes to rates and such, causes and consequences, domestic or forging (sic), in whatever context, I’m just going to be completely making things up because I apparently don’t understand any of it.
Even if this comment was slightly sarcastic, he seemed to think that mass murder should be a lot more common than it actually is. This suggests to me that he did not perceive himself to be much different from the average person (not a "nasty monster") and because of this, he couldn't figure out why everyone wasn't going postal. It sounds as though he saw mass killing as entirely caused by external factors and thought of his own massacre as an inevitability. It's possible that he did recognize his decline in functioning but attributed it to societal influence rather than his own "inexplicable defectiveness."

Pretending we have no idea who the author is or the carnage he is planning, it could be argued that he is being strictly rational and when looking at the population.  Taking a step back and considering there are 1.3 billion people in China, it's easy to wonder why there isn't a massacre everyday.  

I actually had the same thoughts in the early/mid 2000s when I'd take the train into grand central terminal in NYC everyday.  America was at war because terrorists supposedly lurked behind every bush.  Now, I don't want to hurt anyone, but I found myself asking the same sort of questions.  "I walk through here with my bags everyday.  It would be incredibly easy for me or anyone else to bring explosives in at any time.  Given the number of people that come through here with bags everyday, and the apparent number who want to kill us, why has this place lasted a single month?"
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