Defending the Bullies?

Well, I know we will never truly stop bullying in schools, but I wish their were state and federal laws against it.

Never thought of making bullying illegal.

That would be interesting.

I question if any school shooter or bombers should be compared on any level to Hitler or any other despot?

I really feel that Hitler, Stalin ect are in a category by themselves,although that category is a very old one.

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Understood and I wasn't trying to take a side in the disagreement, just explain what Brad might still be going through based on my own experiences . For the last several months I have been so drained by and engrossed in my work that I haven't been able to post here like I once did so I didn't want to make it look like I was taking a side.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I question if any school shooter or bombers should be compared on any level to Hitler or any other despot?

I really feel that Hitler, Stalin ect are in a category by themselves,although that category is a very old one.

People from different categories. Shooters tend to have difficulties with integration into society. They do not occupy a high position, are not leaders.
Hitler literally hypnotized the crowd his public appearances, although he was a strange man. In any case, politics has always been dirty business. War and conflict, a struggle for power or for resources have nothing to do with school shootings.

I never equated E&D to Hitler. I have no idea where that came from. If someone is going to excuse the slaughter of innocent people on the basis of the possibility of bullying, then where do the apologists draw the line?

I don't believe that Eric and Dylan suffered extensive bullying at the school. On the contrary, I believe Eric and Dylan bullied others.

In the 11k, 28 people, including their close associates Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold frequently bullied others.

17 people, including close friend Robyn Anderson, say they never saw Eric or Dylan harassed.

20 or so people, most of whom did not know them well, say they saw them bullied, but most of this was probably in retaliation for Eric and Dylan's bullying campaign against others.

The biggest supporter of Eric and Dylan being bullied was Brooks Brown, who had an axe to grind against school administrators and told many stories that no one else in the 11k corroborates.

Remember that Eric and Dylan did not shoot jocks, but mostly women, underclassmen, and people who were small and helpless, often bullying them before they did so.

Eric and Dylan were the bullies. Not the other way around.

Bullying someone else is a symptom of being bullied in certain people. Most people who go out of their way to make another person feel bad is doing it because someone is doing it to them. Eric and Dylan WERE bullied and they were mean to other people, maybe not to full extent to be tagged as the class bullies but being negative towards people in a way to deal with it happening to them.

spidEr wrote:

Bullying someone else is a symptom of being bullied in certain people. Most people who go out of their way to make another person feel bad is doing it because someone is doing it to them. Eric and Dylan WERE bullied and they were mean to other people, maybe not to full extent to be tagged as the class bullies but being negative towards people in a way to deal with it happening to them.

Why didn't they kill the bullies then? why go after people who did nothing to them?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] That is the conundrum that brings so many here, searching for that answer. True, their plan was to blow up the school, but when the mission went a different direction, there's no conceivable explanation for their choice of victim.

It had nothing to do with any individual, and everything to do with a high concentration of victims.

bradt93 wrote:

spidEr wrote:

Bullying someone else is a symptom of being bullied in certain people. Most people who go out of their way to make another person feel bad is doing it because someone is doing it to them. Eric and Dylan WERE bullied and they were mean to other people, maybe not to full extent to be tagged as the class bullies but being negative towards people in a way to deal with it happening to them.

Why didn't they kill the bullies then? why go after people who did nothing to them?

People have explained this to you. I am not sure what else there is to say. I mean this in a gentle way so do not get offended please....but is it your aspergers that is causing you to focus on this one single aspect of the case? Because in the grand scheme of Columbine bullying is very very low on the list.

Lizpuff wrote:

People have explained this to you.  I am not sure what else there is to say.  I mean this in a gentle way so do not get offended please....but is it your aspergers that is causing you to focus on this one single aspect of the case?  Because in the grand scheme of Columbine bullying is very very low on the list.

I'm still waiting for him to explain why he created this thread accusing people here of being bully defenders when there are no posts from anyone here supporting his accusation...

And [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  just as no one here can answer why the staff did nothing to stop the bullying, no one here can answer why e&d didn't target or kill only bullies. Only e&d know the answer. As I've said in an earlier post, all we can do is Speculate. No one will ever have a definite answer.

In this thread, I have nothing to add, except vitriol and derision. Everyone has given excellent opinions. But, I get the feeling this is juicy bait for everyone to eat and engage in a USELESS debate. I'm outta this circus of ants and maggots. I'm far too educated and knowledgeable to proceed. And....drop the mike.

The reason Dylan and Eric didn't target any specific people or any specific bullies is because there were none. This was intended to be a bombing. As we know, the bombing failed miserably so they had to improvise. So they took their guns and went to a place that had easy access and a large number of students. They killed whoever they saw. Again, they did not go after any specific targets because there were none.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that "bullying" really had nothing to do with this. They wanted to kill everyone in that school, including their own friends. If anything, Dylan's depression and being suicidal was one of the biggest influences over this whole thing. Him wanting to die. And again, him wanting to die had nothing to do with bullying. He did not cry to his journal that he wanted to die because he was bullied and tortured. He actually said in his journal that HE was the one who picked on people, not the other way around. And again, I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to grab a hold of?

And I'm at the point where I'm gonna start shutting down all this badmouthing of Evan Todd. Evan was a victim, not the perpetrator. Evan was the one who was shot at and injured, threatened, harassed, called a "fat fuck", humiliated and basically had to beg for his life while he had a gun shoved in his face. If this happened to you, would you have nice things to say in an interview afterwards? Evan didn't even know the killers. He never bullied them. What Evan said was that they were bullied because of how they looked and how they acted. And they did it on purpose. The Trench Coat Mafia members even admitted to doing stuff to antagonize the jocks or whoever they were feuding with. Dylan's own Mother said that Dylan intentionally did stuff to get people to look at him and/or be afraid of him. She asked Dylan not to dress with the hat, glasses and trench coat when they went out in public because people looked like they were afraid of him and Dylan just laughed like he enjoyed the negative attention. Dylan was not some innocent kid who was picked on - he was a bully. More than a few girls said they were afraid of him. Dylan was not "tortured on a daily basis". And the same thing goes for Eric. There were girls afraid of him too and girls he harassed because they didn't wanna go out with him.

And Evan Todd has actually gone on to do some really good things as an adult. He's gone to schools to talk to students about his experience at Columbine and to help educate children on the dangers of bullying. He created a fund raiser for a homeless man and raised over 100 thousand dollars for this homeless man and other Veterans (I believe it was Veterans. It was either Veterans or he donated to homeless shelters for Veterans).

And I too would like to know where you've seen anyone on this forum stand up for bullies? I've read pretty much everything that has ever been posted on this forum since Day 1 and I do not recall anyone ever encouraging or standing up for bullying. And if there was someone doing that then I and everyone else must have missed it because no one has ever brought it to my attention. Unless you're referring to Evan Todd? But like I said, he was not the bully, he was the victim. He was the one being bullied with a gun in face after he had already been shot at and injured prior to that.

And more people do than don't have empathy for Dylan and Eric. You need to stop being so one dimensional and understand that it's much more complex than Dylan and Eric were horribly bullied, snapped and killed people. There was much more than that. And while them being picked on may have been a small factor it was not the root of what happened. And asking the same questions a million times isn't going to make anyone come up with the exact answer of why this all happened. Why do you think we're still here 18 years later talking about it?

Jenn wrote:

The reason Dylan and Eric didn't target any specific people or any specific bullies is because there were none. This was intended to be a bombing. As we know, the bombing failed miserably so they had to improvise. So they took their guns and went to a place that had easy access and a large number of students. They killed whoever they saw. Again, they did not go after any specific targets because there were none.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that "bullying" really had nothing to do with this. They wanted to kill everyone in that school, including their own friends. If anything, Dylan's depression and being suicidal was one of the biggest influences over this whole thing. Him wanting to die. And again, him wanting to die had nothing to do with bullying. He did not cry to his journal that he wanted to die because he was bullied and tortured. He actually said in his journal that HE was the one who picked on people, not the other way around. And again, I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to grab a hold of?

And I'm at the point where I'm gonna start shutting down all this badmouthing of Evan Todd. Evan was a victim, not the perpetrator. Evan was the one who was shot at and injured, threatened, harassed, called a "fat fuck", humiliated and basically had to beg for his life while he had a gun shoved in his face. If this happened to you, would you have nice things to say in an interview afterwards? Evan didn't even know the killers. He never bullied them. What Evan said was that they were bullied because of how they looked and how they acted. And they did it on purpose. The Trench Coat Mafia members even admitted to doing stuff to antagonize the jocks or whoever they were feuding with. Dylan's own Mother said that Dylan intentionally did stuff to get people to look at him and/or be afraid of him. She asked Dylan not to dress with the hat, glasses and trench coat when they went out in public because people looked like they were afraid of him and Dylan just laughed like he enjoyed the negative attention. Dylan was not some innocent kid who was picked on - he was a bully. More than a few girls said they were afraid of him. Dylan was not "tortured on a daily basis". And the same thing goes for Eric. There were girls afraid of him too and girls he harassed because they didn't wanna go out with him.

And Evan Todd has actually gone on to do some really good things as an adult. He's gone to schools to talk to students about his experience at Columbine and to help educate children on the dangers of bullying. He created a fund raiser for a homeless man and raised over 100 thousand dollars for this homeless man and other Veterans (I believe it was Veterans. It was either Veterans or he donated to homeless shelters for Veterans).

And I too would like to know where you've seen anyone on this forum stand up for bullies? I've read pretty much everything that has ever been posted on this forum since Day 1 and I do not recall anyone ever encouraging or standing up for bullying. And if there was someone doing that then I and everyone else must have missed it because no one has ever brought it to my attention. Unless you're referring to Evan Todd? But like I said, he was not the bully, he was the victim. He was the one being bullied with a gun in face after he had already been shot at and injured prior to that.

And more people do than don't have empathy for Dylan and Eric. You need to stop being so one dimensional and understand that it's much more complex than Dylan and Eric were horribly bullied, snapped and killed people. There was much more than that. And while them being picked on may have been a small factor it was not the root of what happened. And asking the same questions a million times isn't going to make anyone come up with the exact answer of why this all happened. Why do you think we're still here 18 years later talking about it?

I'm just very interested in the case as a whole, but I guess we will never really know why they did the things they did. Also, didn't a few girls like Eric and Dylan, but they didn't give them a chance? I thought as far as girls go, they weren't actually that scared to approach them.

bradt93 wrote:

I'm just very interested in the case as a whole, but I guess we will never really know why they did the things they did. Also, didn't a few girls like Eric and Dylan, but they didn't give them a chance? I thought as far as girls go, they weren't actually that scared to approach them.

Eric seemed to be able to approach girls and he dated a few over time. The relationships didn't last very long and Eric didn't take break-ups well. He harassed one girl online and in his freshman year, he supposedly faked a suicide attempt after he went on one date with a girl and she wouldn't go out with him again. Dylan had much more difficulty approaching girls because he was so shy. However, Robyn was interested in him and he made it clear that he saw her as just a friend.

bradt93 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

The reason Dylan and Eric didn't target any specific people or any specific bullies is because there were none. This was intended to be a bombing. As we know, the bombing failed miserably so they had to improvise. So they took their guns and went to a place that had easy access and a large number of students. They killed whoever they saw. Again, they did not go after any specific targets because there were none.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that "bullying" really had nothing to do with this. They wanted to kill everyone in that school, including their own friends. If anything, Dylan's depression and being suicidal was one of the biggest influences over this whole thing. Him wanting to die. And again, him wanting to die had nothing to do with bullying. He did not cry to his journal that he wanted to die because he was bullied and tortured. He actually said in his journal that HE was the one who picked on people, not the other way around. And again, I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to grab a hold of?

And I'm at the point where I'm gonna start shutting down all this badmouthing of Evan Todd. Evan was a victim, not the perpetrator. Evan was the one who was shot at and injured, threatened, harassed, called a "fat fuck", humiliated and basically had to beg for his life while he had a gun shoved in his face. If this happened to you, would you have nice things to say in an interview afterwards? Evan didn't even know the killers. He never bullied them. What Evan said was that they were bullied because of how they looked and how they acted. And they did it on purpose. The Trench Coat Mafia members even admitted to doing stuff to antagonize the jocks or whoever they were feuding with. Dylan's own Mother said that Dylan intentionally did stuff to get people to look at him and/or be afraid of him. She asked Dylan not to dress with the hat, glasses and trench coat when they went out in public because people looked like they were afraid of him and Dylan just laughed like he enjoyed the negative attention. Dylan was not some innocent kid who was picked on - he was a bully. More than a few girls said they were afraid of him. Dylan was not "tortured on a daily basis". And the same thing goes for Eric. There were girls afraid of him too and girls he harassed because they didn't wanna go out with him.

And Evan Todd has actually gone on to do some really good things as an adult. He's gone to schools to talk to students about his experience at Columbine and to help educate children on the dangers of bullying. He created a fund raiser for a homeless man and raised over 100 thousand dollars for this homeless man and other Veterans (I believe it was Veterans. It was either Veterans or he donated to homeless shelters for Veterans).

And I too would like to know where you've seen anyone on this forum stand up for bullies? I've read pretty much everything that has ever been posted on this forum since Day 1 and I do not recall anyone ever encouraging or standing up for bullying. And if there was someone doing that then I and everyone else must have missed it because no one has ever brought it to my attention. Unless you're referring to Evan Todd? But like I said, he was not the bully, he was the victim. He was the one being bullied with a gun in face after he had already been shot at and injured prior to that.

And more people do than don't have empathy for Dylan and Eric. You need to stop being so one dimensional and understand that it's much more complex than Dylan and Eric were horribly bullied, snapped and killed people. There was much more than that. And while them being picked on may have been a small factor it was not the root of what happened. And asking the same questions a million times isn't going to make anyone come up with the exact answer of why this all happened. Why do you think we're still here 18 years later talking about it?

I'm just very interested in the case as a whole, but I guess we will never really know why they did the things they did. Also, didn't a few girls like Eric and Dylan, but they didn't give them a chance? I thought as far as girls go, they weren't actually that scared to approach them.

Robyn was definitely into Dylan but he only liked her as a friend. He didn't want to go to the prom with her but his parents paid him to go. I don't know if he meant they actually gave him money if he'd go or he meant that they paid for the prom tickets, his tuxedo, flowers, etc. I'm thinking he meant they just paid for him to go to it so that he didn't have to use his own money because going to the prom is really expensive. I went to 3 proms and every time it was well over $200.

As far as we know Dylan never had a girlfriend and aside from the prom, never really went on any dates. Aside from Robyn, we don't know if any girls were actually into him because the ones who claim they had crushes on him never mentioned it until after the shooting and I take anything anyone says after the shooting with a grain of salt.

Eric was interested in a few different girls but most of them turned him down and the one that did go on a few dates with him decided to stop seeing him and he went on to borderline harass her. He did have somewhat of a date on the night of the prom. He had a girl over his house and again, after the shooting, she claimed to have been really interested in and had feelings for him. Again, I take that with a grain of salt.

As for approaching girls they both seemed to be shy and afraid to approach them. Eric approached them a bit more than Dylan did though and if he didn't ask them out himself, he would have a friend do it. With Dylan, he wrote notes to a girl he had a crush on but he never gave her the notes and as far as we know he never talked to or let the girls he liked know that he liked them. We're pretty sure they both died virgins and Dylan probably never even kissed a girl. Eric may have because he did go out on several dates with one girl but who knows? Neither one of them seemed to have any luck with girls.

Ok, I TRIED! Brad. Research. Beginning to end. 11k. Research 1999. Get off the bullying. It wasn't extreme, and likely far more benign than others who DO NOT do stupid shit.

I don't give a RAT'S ASS what Evan Todd said in 1999. Again, I encourage you to research 1999. He didn't bully those things, otherwise he would have been shot. Have you read the 11k? Have you truly researched this, aside from the OMG BULLYING angle? I, and others, encourage you to do so.

The bully angle is tired, exhausting and debunked, as far as the extreme nature you peddle.

THE END...brad I am DONE.

Jenn wrote:

bradt93 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

The reason Dylan and Eric didn't target any specific people or any specific bullies is because there were none. This was intended to be a bombing. As we know, the bombing failed miserably so they had to improvise. So they took their guns and went to a place that had easy access and a large number of students. They killed whoever they saw. Again, they did not go after any specific targets because there were none.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that "bullying" really had nothing to do with this. They wanted to kill everyone in that school, including their own friends. If anything, Dylan's depression and being suicidal was one of the biggest influences over this whole thing. Him wanting to die. And again, him wanting to die had nothing to do with bullying. He did not cry to his journal that he wanted to die because he was bullied and tortured. He actually said in his journal that HE was the one who picked on people, not the other way around. And again, I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept to grab a hold of?

And I'm at the point where I'm gonna start shutting down all this badmouthing of Evan Todd. Evan was a victim, not the perpetrator. Evan was the one who was shot at and injured, threatened, harassed, called a "fat fuck", humiliated and basically had to beg for his life while he had a gun shoved in his face. If this happened to you, would you have nice things to say in an interview afterwards? Evan didn't even know the killers. He never bullied them. What Evan said was that they were bullied because of how they looked and how they acted. And they did it on purpose. The Trench Coat Mafia members even admitted to doing stuff to antagonize the jocks or whoever they were feuding with. Dylan's own Mother said that Dylan intentionally did stuff to get people to look at him and/or be afraid of him. She asked Dylan not to dress with the hat, glasses and trench coat when they went out in public because people looked like they were afraid of him and Dylan just laughed like he enjoyed the negative attention. Dylan was not some innocent kid who was picked on - he was a bully. More than a few girls said they were afraid of him. Dylan was not "tortured on a daily basis". And the same thing goes for Eric. There were girls afraid of him too and girls he harassed because they didn't wanna go out with him.

And Evan Todd has actually gone on to do some really good things as an adult. He's gone to schools to talk to students about his experience at Columbine and to help educate children on the dangers of bullying. He created a fund raiser for a homeless man and raised over 100 thousand dollars for this homeless man and other Veterans (I believe it was Veterans. It was either Veterans or he donated to homeless shelters for Veterans).

And I too would like to know where you've seen anyone on this forum stand up for bullies? I've read pretty much everything that has ever been posted on this forum since Day 1 and I do not recall anyone ever encouraging or standing up for bullying. And if there was someone doing that then I and everyone else must have missed it because no one has ever brought it to my attention. Unless you're referring to Evan Todd? But like I said, he was not the bully, he was the victim. He was the one being bullied with a gun in face after he had already been shot at and injured prior to that.

And more people do than don't have empathy for Dylan and Eric. You need to stop being so one dimensional and understand that it's much more complex than Dylan and Eric were horribly bullied, snapped and killed people. There was much more than that. And while them being picked on may have been a small factor it was not the root of what happened. And asking the same questions a million times isn't going to make anyone come up with the exact answer of why this all happened. Why do you think we're still here 18 years later talking about it?

I'm just very interested in the case as a whole, but I guess we will never really know why they did the things they did. Also, didn't a few girls like Eric and Dylan, but they didn't give them a chance? I thought as far as girls go, they weren't actually that scared to approach them.

Robyn was definitely into Dylan but he only liked her as a friend. He didn't want to go to the prom with her but his parents paid him to go. I don't know if he meant they actually gave him money if he'd go or he meant that they paid for the prom tickets, his tuxedo, flowers, etc. I'm thinking he meant they just paid for him to go to it so that he didn't have to use his own money because going to the prom is really expensive. I went to 3 proms and every time it was well over $200.

As far as we know Dylan never had a girlfriend and aside from the prom, never really went on any dates. Aside from Robyn, we don't know if any girls were actually into him because the ones who claim they had crushes on him never mentioned it until after the shooting and I take anything anyone says after the shooting with a grain of salt.

Eric was interested in a few different girls but most of them turned him down and the one that did go on a few dates with him decided to stop seeing him and he went on to borderline harass her. He did have somewhat of a date on the night of the prom. He had a girl over his house and again, after the shooting, she claimed to have been really interested in and had feelings for him. Again, I take that with a grain of salt.

As for approaching girls they both seemed to be shy and afraid to approach them. Eric approached them a bit more than Dylan did though and if he didn't ask them out himself, he would have a friend do it. With Dylan, he wrote notes to a girl he had a crush on but he never gave her the notes and as far as we know he never talked to or let the girls he liked know that he liked them. We're pretty sure they both died virgins and Dylan probably never even kissed a girl. Eric may have because he did go out on several dates with one girl but who knows? Neither one of them seemed to have any luck with girls.

Why weren't a lot girls interested in them? Were they actually scared of them and was put off how they acted?

Because teenagers are shallow. E&d were even shallow and had standards, which were set higher than where they were on the social ladder. There are topics all over this board that discuss e&d's experience with girls, but here are some examples for you anyway

Both of them weren't popular. Both of them were on the geeky side, dressed like outcasts and listened to angry music that wasn't accepted by the popular kids. They weren't trendy or mainstream, which can be important to teenagers. As already stated, both of them set their standards high by being interested in popular girls (who were also pretty shallow), and we all know that at least in the 90s popular girls usually didn't date geeky outcasts. Both were awkward. They had interests in weapons and explosives which can scare people off. Etc, etc, etc. I'm sure you can find many more examples by browsing this forum. But I'm starting to think no amount of research, and no one here's answers are going to be enough to keep you from asking the same questions over and over and over.

You expect people here to answer your consistent, repetitive questions, but you dodge other people's questions and have refused to explain why you created this thread accusing people here of bully defending (despite having zero examples or evidence), and you've been asked this more than once by more than one person...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Drop. The. Mike. Just like me lol. Common sense, rationale and logic have not penetrated. I'm not obsessed with anything (Prince, for my friends, aside), much less shit that happened EIGHTEN years ago. In simple terms: WE DO NOT KNOW WHY. THE END.

P.s. Bullying is minute, possibly no more than a what everyone endures in high school, thus NOT the cause.

Bullying wasn't the sole cause but just one of the many triggers. Even them screaming out if there was any jocks as soon as they entered the library gives you some insight into their thought process after the bombs failed to go off.

But everything done that day was done strictly on impulse and adrenaline after knowing they completely failed with the bombs.

Even though they failed Eric Harris is probably still content with the fact there are still plenty of people referencing and copy catting what he and Dylan did, (wherever he and dylan are). Overall, I think that was Eric's main goal. His anger and hatred just fueled things but he wanted to be notorious through violence.