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 Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?

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bradt93
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PostSubject: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:22 pm

If there is an afterlife, do you think they are in heaven or hell? Would he forgive them, because they both had mental illnesses.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:26 am

I'm an evangelical Christian and this is what I believe (which is on par with reformed Protestant theology)

Is there an afterlife? Yes.
Are Eric and Dylan in hell? Yes.
Would God forgive them because of mental illness? No.

Let me explain my reasoning as best as I can. The bible tells us of God's character. He is a just, merciful judge, the maker of heaven and earth. God never acts in a way that is outside of his character, he is always internally consistent. He doesn't want to condemn people to death and hell.

"Say to them as I live" declares the Lord God "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11 ESV)

There are two forms of revelation through which God makes himself known: general revelation and special revelation. But for the purposes of this response, let's discuss the former, rather than the latter. General revelation is the idea that Jesus talks about in the Sermon on the Mount "For He makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and unjust" (Matthew 5:45 ESV), meaning that the creation of the world and every good thing in it is enough evidence of God that there is no excuse to not believe in God "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes - namely his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse!" (Romans 1:18-20 ESV).  Additionally, everyone has a basic concept of morality, conscience and the difference between right and wrong. “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.” (Romans 2:14-15 ESV). Paul also argues that "...Do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead to you to repentance [of sins]? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:4-5 ESV)

The reason the God sends people to Hell is because they reject him and are unrepentant in their sin. I would say based on their behaviour, even the conversation that Dylan had with Valeen Schnurr and Dylan's comment to her "God is gay" is a pretty solid indication that Eric and Dylan rejected God and were unrepentant in that. Mental illness has nothing to do with it, and isn't a mitigating circumstance. God's eternal judgment isn't like a sentencing hearing in a human court, you don't get aggravating and mitigating circumstances that add time to or reduce from your sentence. God's judgment is just, holy and final. There are some Christians who believe in an idea that hell is temporary, like jail and that eventually everyone goes to heaven - but that's false. Because you have to ask yourself, how would it be fair for people who reject and hate God to have to spend eternity in heaven praising him? He's just giving people like Eric and Dylan what they want - eternal life without God.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:11 am

I am a Deist.

There is no such thing as the afterlife. Once you're dead... you're dead. God (if he even exists) doesn't care about humanity. Eric and Dylan are dead, and there is nothing more to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:11 pm

I have a weird view on this subject. I believe there might be an afterlife but I don't believe in any religion. I don't think there is a God, Devil, Heaven or Hell. I'm kind of new to this idea, since I have been an Atheist for 20 years. I think every religious is all bullshit and it's meant to keep the masses from doing things that are "inhumane". I've had some weird unexplainable experiences, so it's nearly impossible for me not to believe in an afterlife at this point, but religion I have never believed in. I was agnostic until I was 12, since then an atheist. With all that said, I believe if there is an afterlife, there is no God there to forgive Eric and Dylan.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:52 pm

There is no heaven or hell, if there is an "after-life" it has to be in a form of energy, constantly going around but you're not actually conscious of it. Once the mind's gone, it's gone. You can actually observe this in people who, unfortunately, were in accidents and for example, part of their brain is no longer functional, it's a different person and in more extreme cases, they just turn to plants.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:32 am

Yes, I do think he forgave them because I believe they died spiritually and mentally unmature.
They were just kids when they died and I have no doubt that God took all of the above into account.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:50 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
Yes, I do think he forgave them because I believe they died spiritually and mentally unmature.
They were just kids when they died and I have no doubt that God took all of the above into account.

I thought you became a man at 18. Imagine if Eric is being punished in hell but Dylan got away with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:52 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
Yes, I do think he forgave them because I believe they died spiritually and mentally unmature.
They were just kids when they died and I have no doubt that God took all of the above into account.

I read your post and I have to ask, why do you think psychological development has anything to do with salvation and forgiveness for God? There are plenty of adults walking around who reject God brazenly as Eric and Dylan did and would you make the same argument for them? Would you say Ted Bundy would be forgiven by God because he probably wasn't emotionally or spiritually mature because he was a psychopath and psychopaths lack empathy?

What I'm trying to say is that your statement doesn't really make a lot of sense, at not theologically. Maybe you need to spend some more time reading the bible with someone who is spiritually well rounded? A reformed church is a good place to start. I'd recommend a Presbyterian Church of America affiliated church in the US, or a similar type of reformed church in the UK, or Australia.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:59 am

kurayami wrote:
The reason the God sends people to Hell is because they reject him and are unrepentant in their sin.
I find this response strange. You didn't mention the act of murder a single time. Your belief is that it was a rejection of God that doomed them to hell? According to your belief, a person who lives up to all the usual moral laws and goes out of their way to be good to other people while also being an atheist would suffer the same fate?

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:01 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I believe the age of accountability is different for each individual.They were probably immature in other ways but even though they practically were the same age some of the victims were obviously more spiritually mature than E &D.

I am positive God doesn't work that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:15 am

sscc wrote:
kurayami wrote:
The reason the God sends people to Hell is because they reject him and are unrepentant in their sin.
I find this response strange. You didn't mention the act of murder a single time. Your belief is that it was a rejection of God that doomed them to hell? According to your belief, a person who lives up to all the usual moral laws and goes out of their way to be good to other people while also being an atheist would suffer the same fate?

Thats a really good question. I know a lot of atheists, not one of which who has ever committed murder and they are pretty decent people. Based on this statement, kurayami is technically saying even good people that reject god are hellbound. I mean, its not like we believe in hell anyway, but I've always found being told "you're going to hell" kinda, sorta harsh. Although you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:18 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I believe the age of accountability is different for each individual.They were probably immature in other ways but been though they practically were the same age some of the victims were obviously more spiritually mature than E &D.

I am positive God doesn't work that way.

Maybe you are right, I guess we'll never know (well, until we die).

I was confirmed when I was 12 or 13 I think. I thought this was the age you were supposed to choose to accept God yourself (as opposed to being Christened when you were a little baby when you had no say in the matter).

Perhaps there's a dubious appeals committee up there where people try and get off on technicalities. Eg. a man with a little pecker claiming he wasn't fully developed in body so can't have been fully mature in the mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:23 am

LMAO [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that's a hilarious and entertaining example. Thanks for that Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:27 am

Scarletmoon wrote:
LMAO [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that's a hilarious and entertaining example. Thanks for that Smile

That's just one example - there's probably a million reasons people could come up with. Sadly for Eric and Dylan (in death anyway) it looks like according to the autopsy reports that they could not use this excuse as they were of 'normal size and shape'.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:36 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
No offense but I find the fact that you assume I don't know much about the Bible because I don't share your exact view on this to be a little offensive. I've been reading the Bible for quite some time now and I am a religious person.
It's an important part of my life.
I'm not a person who likes to say especially publicly that I believe so and so is going to Hell.I'm not anyone else's judge and I feel its not my place. In the end its up to God and God alone.

Are there people I believe are going to Hell? Sadly,yes .But I keep that to myself.

Lastly, I have Christian beliefs but I don't belong to any church at this time although I may join one in the future if I feel it is the right place for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:38 am

sscc wrote:
kurayami wrote:
The reason the God sends people to Hell is because they reject him and are unrepentant in their sin.
I find this response strange. You didn't mention the act of murder a single time. Your belief is that it was a rejection of God that doomed them to hell? According to your belief, a person who lives according to all the usual moral laws and goes out of their way to be good to other people while also being an atheist would suffer the same fate?

Well, I didn't mention "murder" because the idea that murder is a sin in Christian belief is common knowledge.

To answer your question: Let me try to explain as well as I can. The Apostle Paul talks about how general revelation (that the world has been created, some people are good by human moral standards, that there are good and glorious things in the world) is enough to prove even to the staunchest atheist that God exists. If they chose to reject that and have a life without God, God will give them what they want - and that's exactly what Hell is. Eternity without God.

When talking of your belief that being good to others is somehow enough to get into Heaven just doesn't cut the mustard (and here I will explain with Scripture). Here are several reasons why:

1. God is perfect, just and holy. His standards of perfection are not capable of being reached by human works. This is why Catholics and other people who believe in a "theology of works" (that they can work hard, be a good person, take communion, and get into Heaven) are wrong. That doesn't get you into Heaven. Let me explain a little more. Isaiah 64:6 says "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.", there is nothing humans can do that will make us able to enter Heaven without a Saviour. The entire Old Testament points to the need for a Saviour and the coming of Jesus.

2. Jesus talks in the sermon on the mount about good works in non-Christians and the goodness, and mercy of God. "Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him?" (Matthew 7:9-11) and also Jesus discusses how most people are going to hell "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14). You might be thinking "how can Jesus talk of God's goodness and call people made in God's image evil in the same breath"?

The reasons are two-fold (all emphasis is mine):

1. Sin was not part of God's design for his creation. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were ejected from the Garden of Eden and sin came into the world, frustrating creation (Genesis 3; Romans 8:20) and making people sinful from birth. Sin is innate and the concept that people are inherently good is not biblical. Consider this: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks God. All have turned aside, together they have become worthless, no one does good. Not even one. There is no fear of God before their eyes. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:10-12;18;22(b)-24). We need redemption, we need Christ. Christ is the only way to Heaven. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)

2. In Jewish culture, unless you followed the law set out in Leviticus (and it was like 600+ rules regarding appropriate cleanliness to be able to be in God's presence), you were unclean. You couldn't approach the inner sanctum of the temple unless you gave a sacrifice for sin. Animals served this function prior to God sending his Son to be the ultimate and final sacrifice from sin. Jesus came to fulfill the law set out in the Old Testament. In this, you must understand that Jesus and God are one. Jesus says so many times. If you didn't believe Jesus, and follow him, you were unclean to God. Because God loves us so much that he sacrificed his beloved for our sin, disobedience and rejection.

Christians are called to evangelise to people about God because we don't want to see people sin, we want people to embrace God, repent for their sin and become Christians. God wants that for as many people as possible. But we can't know who will become Christian and who won't. Only God knows that. He chooses who He chooses. That's a concept called election and is explained in the book of Romans. Becoming a Christian is stupidly easy. "Because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9) That's all God needs to hear for your salvation to be secured. The Holy Spirit works on the heart and does the rest - this of course, is somewhat simplified. But the concept is still the same. You don't have to kill bulls and rams and doves anymore to come to God, only believe in Jesus and his resurrection from the dead. To God's mind, there's no excuse for not acknowledging him as God. Read the book of Romans if you want more explanation.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:47 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
No offense but I find the fact that you assume I don't know much about the Bible because I don't share your exact view on this to be a little offensive. I've been reading the Bible for quite some time now and I am a religious person.
It's an important part of my life.
I'm not a person who likes to say especially publicly that I believe so and so is going to Hell.I'm not anyone else's judge and I feel its not my place. In the end its up to God and God alone.

Are there people I believe are going to Hell? Sadly,yes .But I keep that to myself.

Lastly, I have Christian beliefs but I don't belong to any church at this time although I may join one in the future if I feel it is the right place for me.

I'm not offended, but I can understand why you might be by what I said. I believe that the bible is authoritative and completely correct. You'll probably be offended by this, but let me ask you: If you're religious, believe in God and it's important to you, why do not go to church? We are called to "not neglect to meet together" in Hebrews 10. I fully believe in finding a church where you get good teaching and you like the people, but it's to your benefit to meet with other Christians.

And why would you keep the doctrine of Hell to yourself? That doesn't make any sense. God doesn't keep the doctrine of Hell to himself. Jesus talks about Hell more than anyone. Maybe it's so not to offend anyone, but the gospel of Jesus Christ is offensive. That doesn't really mean we should run around intentionally offending people.

In regard to your original question: I made an assumption that your theology is bad, based on the fact that it's not biblical. God doesn't forgive sin due to immaturity. That's not biblically sound and you're giving non-believers false hope, if that's what you tell them.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:50 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I don't wish to debate you really.
I simply don't agree with you. You see things one way or interpret things one way and I see it differently.That's very much ok.
I do not believe my theology is unsound at all.
I'm not giving anyone false hope but I do not believe that God sends teenagers to Hell.
I just don't. Some people out there will argue with you that God allows 11,12 year olds to go to Hell.I can't agree with that either.
As for why I don't go around saying so and so in in Hell, I don't feel its my place to judge or say for sure because I feel that only God knows these things for sure and he is the ultimate judge and maybe there are things in a person's life that I don't know about that  had such an effect on them God showed them mercy.
I cannot say that doesn't even happen.
Besides that a lot of Christians out there are really cruel about it, literally gloating that so and so is in Hell.That is something I can't stand.

I'm not in church because I haven't found the right one but I hope to someday.
I agree its very important but a person has to find the place they feel they belong.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:14 am

Slightly off topic, but since there are people knowledgeable in religious matters, I would like to ask. Why on Earth are there so many religions, why not one unified religion for all, if God is one? Why some religions are hostile towards representatives of other faiths? If people practice different religions, they pray to different Gods? And no, I do not do blasphemy, but does none of you ask these questions?

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:45 am

Love wrote:
Slightly off topic, but since there are people knowledgeable in religious matters, I would like to ask. Why on Earth are there so many religions, why not one unified religion for all, if God is one? Why some religions are hostile towards representatives of other faiths? If people practice different religions, they pray to different Gods? And no, I do not do blasphemy, but does none of you ask these questions?

Religions that make absolute truth claims that their conception of God is the truth and that there is only one God (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) do not support belief in other gods or religions. To Christians, Jesus is God, to Jews this is blasphemy, and to ask followers of Islam to believe that Jesus is the Son of God is also blasphemy. To believe in other Gods is idol worship and specifically forbidden in Christianity and Judaism (and I assume the same of Islam).

Yes, all people who practice different religions pray to different gods.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:52 am

Thus there is no "right" religion? In fact everyone decides for himself what to believe or not to believe.
I slightly cringe when people say to someone that he is a bad person just because he professes another religion or is an atheist. I think it's wrong. Is it just believing certain things makes a person better?  I think that's why Eric and Dylan were so disappointed in God, particularly in Christianity. Many people are very hypocritical, talking about religion, but at the same time doing evil to others.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:22 am

Love wrote:
Thus there is no "right" religion? In fact everyone decides for himself what to believe or not to believe.

Yes. To Christians, Jehovah is the only God. Thus, belief in God is right. Jews will make the same argument. And Muslims will make the same argument regarding Allah. That's the point of an absolute truth claim.

I can't speak to Islam or Judaism in this respect, but this is what I can tell you about Christianity. God chooses who He saves, He gives us our faith. We can be disobedient and ignore him if we want, but most Christians don't do this. God already decided before the formation of the world who he would love (and thus give faith to) so we don't decide so much as He did.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:22 am

In the diary of Dylan there is such phrase:
Quote :
Blessed God, not a Christian, Jesus, Mt. Sinai, Abraham, David, Bible gay shit god, but a true controller of existence.
Dylan was baptized in the Christian tradition, but at the same time he was a quarter Jewish and Susan asked him to participate in the traditional reading of the questions. So Dylan was familiar with Christianity and Judaism. But he didn't choose any of these religions. Although we can not say that he does not believe in God.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:49 am

I don't have any beliefs, once you're done with this life, it's forever over. Though it would be worth of consideration, for those who believe, that there might be a god who praises similar actions. Maybe they're rejoicing somewhere with an evil god who praises them
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:03 pm

Also not to forget that it started to snow after E's&d's bodies were removed is that normal in US for snowy April ?

"When the shooters' bodies were taken out, it began to snow."

Psalm 51:7 "Remove the sin in me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow." Hyssop explanation:
Hyssop, is an herb in the mint family with cleansing, medicinal, and flavoring properties, was prolific in the Middle East and was used in a variety of ways.

The Bible mentions hyssop several times, mostly in the Old Testament. In Leviticus, God commanded His people to use hyssop in the ceremonial cleansing of people and houses.
David also mentions hyssop in Psalm 51:7: “Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.” David does not refer to physical cleansing—rather, he is asking God to cleanse him spiritually as he confesses his sin.

Another verse: Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool." Eric DAVID Harris


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PostSubject: Re: Do you think god forgave Eric and Dylan?   Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:34 pm

Lol there is no heaven or hell. No afterlife. Those are fairytales. Once Eric and Dylan put the bullet in there brain they died and ceased to exist. There is nothing more to it. They basically returned to the state they were before they were born, the only difference is the memory of them and what they did exists in the minds of those of us who are still alive. Try to think of this way.. you basically are your brain, consciousness is in your brain, when your brain dies, your consciousness dies.
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