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 Eric as the leader?

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myshame



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PostSubject: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:44 pm

Lots of people take it for granted that Eric Harris was the mastermind, and Dylan Klebold was a subordinate partner.

Funnily enough, even in their basement tapes, they never said who had the idea first. I guess it was a collaborative effort.

Most of the weapons were at the Harris home, of course, which lends credence to him as the mastermind. And I think he was the one who drew bombs.

I even remember some witness on the 11k say that the tall guy followed the short guy in the library, but I can't remember what page it was.
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Therewereonlyvictims



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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:02 pm

Didn't Eric shoot twice as many rounds as Dylan?

It saddens me to think about them, because I know there was definitely a way to save them and bring them back to normalcy.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:23 pm

I don't think Eric was the leader at all. Probably just the more outspoken of the two. As for the guns, Sue was (from the looks of it) much more involved with her son and therefore was more likely to check his room for that stuff. I mean Eric's parents found his pipe bomb and didn't do anything. And I think Eric shot more rounds due to his impulsiveness. Remember, they BOTH killed people. I doubt either would've done it alone.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:32 pm

I'll never stop believing that it was Dylan's idea. It would be too much of a coincidence that as Dylan was writing this stuff in his journal 2 years prior to Columbine, that Eric was sitting there thinking about it too. And Eric was the type of person who liked to write everything down. When they were doing the missions and people he hated, he had blogs and he wrote everything down. If he was planning and thinking about this prior to April of 1998, I personally believe he would have been writing it down. Why would he keep blogs and logs on something like their missions and not mention "NBK"? Because I don't think it was even in the works on Eric's part back then.

I think he started that journal because that is when they started seriously talking about doing this and I think Dylan mentioned it to Eric first. Eric was violent and angry and hated people, and of course Dylan knew that. I bet, if anything, Dylan kinda joked about it first to break the ice. And once he seen Eric took him seriously, they started planning it.

A lot of people seem to mistake Eric's taking control with the planning and preparing as him being a "mastermind". And people also seem to mistake Dylan's laziness with the planning and preparing as him just being a "follower". Dylan had chronic, relentlessness suicidal depression. Of course he had no motivation to help in the preparing of this. He wasn't even sure if he was even gonna be alive when April 20th came around as he kept saying he'd kill himself by then. But in the end, he was too much of a coward to just take his own life and decided to kill innocent people so that he could go through with his own suicide.

I do think, however, think that the bombs were Eric's idea. Dylan's idea was to go on a "shooting spree" just like Mickey and Mallory. I think that is the idea he brought to Eric and I think Eric is the one who brought the idea of the bombs into it. So yea, you could say it was a collaboration but that doesn't change the fact that it originally started out as someone's idea and I think that idea was Dylan's. With what they've left behind, it's what makes the most sense to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:43 pm

^^^
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myshame



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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:09 pm

The cafeteria footage backs up the image of Eric as the leader.

In the footage, it looks like Eric was the first one to go back into the cafeteria and start shooting at the bomb.

In the famous pose, Eric was first in coming down the steps, and Dylan prowls behind him. Eric points in the distance, as if giving directions.

And minutes later, Eric leads Dylan up the stairs to the library.

Eric might not have actually been the leader, but he looked the part.


Last edited by myshame on Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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czeyk14



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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:17 pm

Maybe, but I think Dylan just took longer in some places as well and therefore was lagging behind a bit
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:32 pm

Dylan wanted it just as much as Eric and without him theres no way Eric goes through with it.

Eric was just better with the planning/details, in effect making him the leader.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:16 pm

czeyk14 wrote:
Maybe, but I think Dylan just took longer in some places as well and therefore was lagging behind a bit

There's a lot more evidence too.

Eric fired a lot more ammunition during the shooting, and killed a lot more people.

A huge number of their friends in the 11k, including Devon Adams, said Eric was the leader.

Hard to disagree with your conclusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:20 pm

Jenn wrote:
I'll never stop believing that it was Dylan's idea. It would be too much of a coincidence that as Dylan was writing this stuff in his journal 2 years prior to Columbine, that Eric was sitting there thinking about it too.

I'm not persuaded by this, because people don't write down their every thought.

We simply don't know when Eric first had the thought and we never will.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:37 pm

Could it be that Dylan just wasn't really serious about homicide? He then shares it with Eric, who gets obsessed with planning it and getting equipment and then Dylan goes ''Well if Eric likes it so much, we might as well just do that''. Otherwise he would have just skipped all the trouble and just killed himself.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:04 pm

lasttrain wrote:
Jenn wrote:
I'll never stop believing that it was Dylan's idea. It would be too much of a coincidence that as Dylan was writing this stuff in his journal 2 years prior to Columbine, that Eric was sitting there thinking about it too.

I'm not persuaded by this, because people don't write down their every thought.

We simply don't know when Eric first had the thought and we never will.
I also don't think it was just Dylan's idea either. In fact, it does not even matter who offered it first, because they both wanted it.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:53 pm

lasttrain wrote:
Jenn wrote:
I'll never stop believing that it was Dylan's idea. It would be too much of a coincidence that as Dylan was writing this stuff in his journal 2 years prior to Columbine, that Eric was sitting there thinking about it too.

I'm not persuaded by this, because people don't write down their every thought.

We simply don't know when Eric first had the thought and we never will.
If Eric had the idea before Dylan and he was the one who put the thought into Dylan's head, then why was Dylan's original plan to go on his own killing spree or with someone other than Eric? It would be much more logical to believe that Dylan came up with this idea independently of Eric, regardless of what was allegedly going on inside of Eric's head that he wasn't writing down.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:05 pm

I think Eric was the mastermind behind it all.
And dylan was just a badly depressed soul in for the ride.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:59 pm

Jenn wrote:
I'll never stop believing that it was Dylan's idea. It would be too much of a coincidence that as Dylan was writing this stuff in his journal 2 years prior to Columbine, that Eric was sitting there thinking about it too. And Eric was the type of person who liked to write everything down. When they were doing the missions and people he hated, he had blogs and he wrote everything down. If he was planning and thinking about this prior to April of 1998, I personally believe he would have been writing it down. Why would he keep blogs and logs on something like their missions and not mention "NBK"? Because I don't think it was even in the works on Eric's part back then.

I think he started that journal because that is when they started seriously talking about doing this and I think Dylan mentioned it to Eric first. Eric was violent and angry and hated people, and of course Dylan knew that. I bet, if anything, Dylan kinda joked about it first to break the ice. And once he seen Eric took him seriously, they started planning it.

A lot of people seem to mistake Eric's taking control with the planning and preparing as him being a "mastermind". And people also seem to mistake Dylan's laziness with the planning and preparing as him just being a "follower". Dylan had chronic, relentlessness suicidal depression. Of course he had no motivation to help in the preparing of this. He wasn't even sure if he was even gonna be alive when April 20th came around as he kept saying he'd kill himself by then. But in the end, he was too much of a coward to just take his own life and decided to kill innocent people so that he could go through with his own suicide.

I do think, however, think that the bombs were Eric's idea. Dylan's idea was to go on a "shooting spree" just like Mickey and Mallory. I think that is the idea he brought to Eric and I think Eric is the one who brought the idea of the bombs into it. So yea, you could say it was a collaboration but that doesn't change the fact that it originally started out as someone's idea and I think that idea was Dylan's. With what they've left behind, it's what makes the most sense to me.

I think this is spot on.

Dylan in his journals mentioned going NBK with his mystery girl. He wanted a killing crime. When the thing with the girl didn't pan out, I think he settled for Eric. Friendwise, Dylan had choices. Eric, not so much. Sue Klebold mentions in her book that after the boys arrest for the stolen property, she considered intervening in their friendship, wanting a permanent distance, but the Harris's urged her not to, as Dylan was Eric's only real friend.

Bad move in hindsight. They were both bad for each other.

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myshame



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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:26 am

Another thing that back up Eric as a "leader":

Dylan asked Eric if he wanted to kill Evan Todd. Eric said he wanted to go to the commons, and Dylan followed him there.

Dylan wasn't meek, but he did look to Eric for guidance.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:37 pm

myshame wrote:
Dylan wasn't meek, but he did look to Eric for guidance.
Evan's statement doesn't suggest that Dylan was looking to Eric for guidance here at all. He decided on his own not to kill Evan but told Eric that he could if he wanted to. Eric ignored him and suggested that they go back to the commons so they did.

(174) Todd
Dylan Klebold had made the statement, "Oh, look what we have here." According to Evan Todd, Eric Harris responded by stating, "What?" Dylan Klebold then replied, "Just some fat fuck." Evan Todd then explained Dylan Klebold began to question him while still pointing the Tec-9 up towards his face. Evan Todd stated Dylan Klebold subsequently asked, "Are you a jock?" According to Evan Todd, he responded, "No." Evan Todd stated Dylan Klebold next commented, "Well, that’s good, we don’t like jocks." Evan Todd stated there was a brief pause, after which Dylan Klebold said, "Let me see your face." At that point, Evan Todd stated he removed his hat and tilted his face in an upward direction. According to Evan Todd, Dylan Klebold looked him straight in the eyes and stated, "Give me one good reason why I shouldn't kill you." Evan Todd told IO he responded, "I don’t want to get in trouble." Evan Todd told IO he had absolutely no idea why he responded to Dylan Klebold's question in the manner indicated above.

Evan Todd told IO after responding to Dylan Klebold by stating, "I don't want to get in trouble,” the forenamed became angry and leaned down closer to him, stating, "trouble? You don’t even know what fucking trouble is.” Evan Todd he then attempted to provide additional clarification reference his above comment. Evan Todd indicated he responded to Dylan Klebold by stating, "That’s not what I meant, I mean, I don't have a problem with you guys, I never will and I never did." Evan Todd explained Dylan Klebold continued to stare at him for a moment and then looked away, stating "I’m gonna let this fat fuck live, you can have at him if you want to.” According to Evan Todd, it appeared as though Eric Harris was not paying any particular attention to what Dylan Klebold had just said. When asked to elaborate, Evan Todd indicated Eric Harris never acknowledged Dylan Klebold’s statement and simply responded by stating, “let's go to the commons.“
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:43 pm

Okay, this is off topic, but since we're discussing library conversations, can we talk about Bree Pasquale? Do y'all think Eric spared Bree as a concious decision, or was he so stunned by the kickback of his shotgun breaking his nose, that he spared her because he was absorbed in his own physical pain?

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:11 am

As I recall at this moment he was distracted by another child, which for him seemed more attractive target because of his skin color (Isaiah).

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:01 am

Good question @Rose The Hat

Reading through Bree's statement on pages 000519-000536, Dylan told Eric to shoot her and Eric said no. Eric was still pretty coherent after hitting his nose. I believe he made a conscious decision to not kill Bree. As we know after that decision he then focused on Isaiah.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:06 am

He really said no? Didn't he say that everyone will die anyway?

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:15 am

Love wrote:
He really said no? Didn't he say that everyone will die anyway?

Page 000531:

Bree Pasquale then heard Dylan Klebold state to Eric Harris, "shoot her." According to Bree Pasquale, Eric Harris replied, "no, we're gonna' blow up the school anyway."

He said no and I believe he made a conscious decision to spare her at that moment.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:58 am

myshame wrote:
I even remember some witness on the 11k say that the tall guy followed the short guy in the library, but I can't remember what page it was.

In the commons CCTV footage you can see that Dylan was mostly following Eric there too.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:30 pm

That's a good point.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:11 pm

I feel like it will always be one of the biggest misconceptions about this case.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric as the leader?   Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:55 am

They both had their parts in the planning.
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