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 Oklahoma City and Waco

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czeyk14



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PostSubject: Oklahoma City and Waco    Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:01 pm

So today is the 22nd anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. Timothy McVeigh executed the attack on the same day as the last day of the Waco siege a few years before.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:20 pm

Waco Siege (76+ deaths):

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Oklahoma City Bombing (168 deaths):

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:27 pm

I wonder if there's anyone who knows all 168 names of the victims in Oklahoma?
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:20 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
So today is the 22nd anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. Timothy McVeigh executed the attack on the same day as the last day of the Waco siege a few years before.
Aside from this being the anniversary of Waco, apparently, McVeigh also noted that it was the 220th anniversary of the start of the Revolutionary War.
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He liked to think of his attack as a "shot heard round the world" and saw himself as somewhat of a revolutionary, fighting for American liberty against a government that was infringing on the rights of the people. I'm sure it was more like a coincidence since he intended his attack to be a response to Waco but he also appreciated the symbolism. He liked quoting the founding fathers since he felt that the government had been expanding it's power to dangerous levels over the years since the country was founded.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:53 pm

Following is a list of 165 people killed in the Oklahoma City bombing; one person's name has yet to be released. Deaths confirmed by the medical examiner's office are designated with an asterisk. In the other deaths, except for two people designated as missing, the names were supplied by officials, relatives, co-workers or funeral homes.

ALEMAN, Lucio Jr., 33*

ALEXANDER, Teresa, 33

ALLEN, Ted, 48, Norman*

ALLEN, Richard, 46, Yukon*

ALMON, Baylee, 1, Oklahoma City*

ALTHOUSE, Diane E. Hollingsworth, 44, Edmond*

ARGO, Pamela, 36, Oklahoma City*

AVERY, Saundra, 34, Midwest City*

AVILLANOZA, Peter, Oklahoma City, 57

BATTLE, Calvin, 65*

BATTLE, Peola, 51, Oklahoma City*

BELL, Danielle, 1 1/2, Oklahoma City*

BIDDY, Oleta, 54, Oklahoma City*

BLAND, Shelly Turner, 25*

BLANTON, Andrea, 33, Oklahoma City*

BLOOMER, Olen B., 61*

BOLDEN, Army Sgt. 1st Class Lola Rene, 40, Birmingham, Ala.

BOLES, James E., 51*

BOLTE, Mark A., 27*

BOOKER, Cassandra, 25, Oklahoma City*

BOWERS, Carol, 53, Yukon*

BRADLEY, Peachlyn, 3*

BRADY, Woodrow, 41, Oklahoma City*

BROWN, Cynthia Campbell, 26*

BROXTERMAN, Paul G., 43*

BRUCE, Gabreon, 4 months

BURGESS, Kimberly Ruth, 29, Tinker Air Force Base, Okla.

BURKETT, David N., 47*

BURNS, Donald E., 62*

CARR, Karen Gist, 32*

CARRILLO, Michael J., 44*

CHAFEY, Rona, 35, Oklahoma City*

CHAVEZ, Zackary, 3, Oklahoma City*

CHIPMAN, Robert, 51, Edmond*

CLARK, Kimberly K., 39, Oklahoma City*

CLARK, Margaret L., 42*

COOPER, Anthony C. II, 2, Moore*

COOPER, Antonio A. Jr., 6 months

COOPER, Dana L. Brown, 24, Moore*

COTTINGHAM, Harley Jr., 46*

COUSINS, Kim R., 33, Midwest City*

COVERDALE, Elijah, 2, Oklahoma City*

COVERDALE, Aaron, 5, Oklahoma City*

COYNE, Jaci, 14 months, Moore*

CREGAN, Katherine, 60, Oklahoma City*

CUMMINS, Richard, 56*

CURRY, Steven, 44, Norman*

DANIELS, Brenda, 42, Oklahoma City*

DAVIS, Sgt. Benjamin L., 29, Oklahoma City

DAY, Diana Lynn, 38*

DeMASTER, Peter, 44*

DEVEROUX, Castine, 48, Oklahoma City*

DRIVER, Sheila, 28, Oklahoma City*

EAVES, Tylor, 8 months

ECKLES, Ashley, 4, Guthrie*

FERRELL, Susan, 37, Oklahoma City*

FIELDS, Carrol "Chip," 49, Guthrie*

FINLEY, Katherine Ann, 44*

FISHER, Judy J., 45*

FLORENCE, Linda, 43, Oklahoma City*

FRITZLER, Donald, 64, Oklahoma City*

FRITZLER, Mary Anne, 57, Oklahoma City*

GARRETT, Tevin, 1, Oklahoma City*

GARRISON, Laura Jane, 62, Oklahoma City*

GENZER, Jamie, 32*

GOODSON, Margaret, 55, Oklahoma City*

GOTTSHALL, Kevin Lee, 6 months

GRIFFIN, Ethel Louise 55, Edmond*

GUILES, Colleen, 58, Oklahoma City*

GUZMAN, Capt. Randolph, 28, Castro Valley, Calif.

HAMMONS, Cheryl, 44, Oklahoma City

HARDING, Ronald, 55, Oklahoma City*

HAWTHORNE, Thomas, 52, Choctaw*

HIGGINBOTTOM, Doris Adele, 44*

HIGHTOWER, Anita C., 27*

HODGES, Thompson E. "Gene," 54, Norman*

HOLLAND, Peggy Louise, 37, Oklahoma City

HOUSLEY, Linda Coleen, 53, Oklahoma City*

HOWARD, George M., 46, Vallejo, Calif.*

HOWELL, Wanda, 34, Spencer*

HUFF, Robbin A., 37, Bethany*

HURLBURT, Charles, 73, Oklahoma City*

HURLBURT, Anna Jean, 67, Oklahoma City*

ICE, Paul D., 42, Oklahoma City*

JENKINS, Christi Y., 32*

JOHNSON, Domonique London, 2, Oklahoma City*

JOHNSON, Norma Jean, 62*

JOHNSON, Raymond L., 59, Oklahoma, City*

JONES, Larry J., 46, Yukon*

KENNEDY, Blake R., 1 1/2, Amber*

KHALIL, Carole, 50

KOELSCH, Valerie, 33, Oklahoma City*

KREYMBORG, Carolyn A., 57, Oklahoma City*

LAUDERDALE, Teresa L., 41, Shawnee*

LEINEN, Katherine, 47*

LENZ, Carrie, 26, Choctaw*

LEONARD, Donald R., 50, Edmond*

LEVY, Airman 1st Class Lakesha R., 21

LONG, Rheta, 60, Oklahoma City*

LOUDENSLAGER, Michael, 48, Harrah*

LUSTER, Aurelia "Donna," 43, Guthrie*

LUSTER, Robert, 45, Guthrie*

MARONEY, Mickey, 50, Oklahoma City*

MARTIN, James K., 34*

MARTINEZ, Gilberto, 35, Oklahoma City*

MATHES-WORTON, Tresia, 28, Oklahoma City*

McCARTHY, James Anthony, 53*

McCULLOUGH, Kenneth, 36, Edmond*

McGONNELL, Betsy J., 47*

McKINNEY, Linda G., 48*

McRAVEN, airman 1st Class Cartney J., 19

MEDEARIS, Claude, 41, Norman*

MEEK, Claudette, 44, Oklahoma City*

MERRELL, Frankie Ann, 23*

MILLER, Derwin, 27*

MITCHELL, Eula Leigh, 64*

MOSS, John C. III., 51, Warren, Ark.

NIX, Patricia, 47, Edmond

PARKER, Jerry Lee, 45, Norman, ME.

RANDOLPH, Jill, 27, Oklahoma City*

REEDER, Michelle Ann, 33, Oklahoma City*

REES, Terry Smith 41, Midwest City*

RENTIE, Mary Leasure, 39, Bethany*

REYES, Antonio, 55*

RIDLEY, Kathryn, 24*

RIGNEY, Trudy, 31, Midwest City*

RITTER, Claudine, 48*

ROSAS, Christi, 22, Moore. Remains not recovered.

SANDERS, Sonja, 27

SCROGGINS, Lanny L., 46, Oklahoma City*

SEIDL, Kathy L., 39, Shawnee*

SELLS, Leora L., 57*

SHEPHERD, Karan D., 27, Moore*

SMITH, Chase, 3, Oklahoma City*

SMITH, Colton, 2, Oklahoma City*

SOHN, Army Sgt. 1st Class Victoria, 36, Moore

STEWART, John T., 51, Oklahoma City*

STRATTON, Dolores M., 51, Moore

TAPIA, Emilio, 49, Oklahoma City*

TEXTER, Victoria, 37, Oklahoma City*

THOMAS, Charlotte A., 43*

THOMPSON, Michael, 47, Oklahoma City*

THOMPSON, Virginia, 56, El Reno. Remains not recovered.

TITSWORTH, Kayla M., 3, Oklahoma City

TOMLIN, Ricky L., 46*

TREANOR, LaRue, 56, Guthrie*

TREANOR, Luther, 61, Guthrie*

TURNER, Larry L., 43*

VALDEZ, Jules A., 51*

VANESS, John K., 67, Chickasha*

WADE, Johnny A., 42, Edmond*

WALKER, David J. 54, Edmond*

WALKER, Robert N., 52*

WATKINS, Wanda L., 49, Midwest City

WEAVER, Michael, 45, Edmond*

WELCH, Julie, 23, Oklahoma City*

WESTBERRY, Robert, 57, Oklahoma City*

WHICHER, Alan, 40, Edmond*

WHITTENBERG, Jo Ann, 35, Oklahoma City*

WILLIAMS, Frances A., 48, Oklahoma City*

WILLIAMS, Scott, 24, Tuttle*

WILLIAMS, William Stephen, 42*

WILSON, Clarence, 49*

WOOD-CHESNUT, Sharon L., 47, Oklahoma City*

WOODBRIDGE, Ronota A., 31*

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:34 pm

I love these cases, two of my favourites -- thanks [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]!

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Wed May 03, 2017 6:54 pm

Anyone see the Netflix documentaries on the Oklahoma City bombing and Ruby Ridge? I started watching the Oklahoma City one last night but passed out. Not because it wasn't good, I was just really tired. In fact, I can say that not even five minutes in, it was probably the best thing I've even seen on Netflix. Because Netflix sucks.

But I probably just hate everything.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Wed May 03, 2017 9:38 pm

I just watched it last night. I thought it was really good. It not only talks about the Oklahoma City bombing but also about Ruby Ridge and Waco as well. To me it is one of the best as far as describing and talking about about Timothy McVeigh.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Mon May 08, 2017 2:34 pm

Yeah, I really enjoyed it myself! I do like that it contained information about both Ruby Ridge and Waco, seeing as they were catalysts to the event. And also the little briefing on Robert Matthews.

I will watch the one about Ruby Ridge in a few days.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Mon May 08, 2017 7:53 pm

I've watched some, but I can't remember if they're the ones you guys are talking about
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Mon May 22, 2017 6:10 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
He liked quoting the founding fathers since he felt that the government had been expanding it's power to dangerous levels over the years since the country was founded.
That's quite an understatement, the day of the bombing he wore a t-shirt with "Sic semper tyrannis" on the front and Jefferson's "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" on the back.
Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Mon May 22, 2017 3:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

That's quite an understatement, the day of the bombing he wore a t-shirt with "Sic semper tyrannis" on the front and Jefferson's "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" on the back.
Spoiler:
 
He also left a collection of written material in his car for the police to find on the day of the bombing, a lot of which was Revolutionary War era writing.

This is what the opening statement for the prosecution at McVeigh's trial said.
Quote :
You will hear evidence in this case that McVeigh liked to consider himself a patriot, someone who could start the second American Revolution. The literature in his car quoted statements from the Founding Fathers and other people who played a part in the American Revolution, people like Patrick Henry and Samuel Adams. McVeigh isolated and took these statements out of context, and he did that to justify his antigovernment violence.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, the statements of our forefathers can never… justify warfare against innocent children. Our forefathers didn’t fight British women and children. They fought other soldiers. They fought them face to face, hand to hand. They didn’t plant bombs, and run away wearing earplugs.

Apparently, this angered McVeigh because he felt that the real cowards were the people who complained about the government but did nothing about it. He justified his bombing as being an act of war which the government had first ignited by causing the deaths of innocent citizens at Ruby Ridge and Waco (which included women and children), with little accountability for the damage done by the FBI's heavy handed miltaryesque actions. He was attempting to send a message that they could not continue to put lives in danger while they were, as he saw it, infringing on the rights of American citizens. At least one FBI agent who was involved with the Waco situation basically agreed that McVeigh's bombing did have an effect on government policy.

Quote :
Amid all the tragic ironies that surround the Oklahoma City bombing, one of the most unsettling is the conclusion McVeigh had reached about the consequences of his act: he was convinced, he said, that federal agents had begun to back down from the deadly tactics used at Ruby Ridge and Waco as a direct result of the Murrah Building attack. And as evidence he pointed to the 1996 standoff between federal agents and the Montana Freemen, a militia group who claimed to have established a sovereign nation on 960 acres of land near Jordan, Montana.

In some ways, the standoff in Montana resembled the situation at Waco. The Freemen angered authorities by harassing local officials, refusing to pay taxes, writing rubber checks, and threatening the life of a federal judge. But after eighty-one days the Freemen’s saga ended peacefully, with the surrender of twenty-three adults and four children. From the start, the FBI seemed determined to bring the Freemen standoff to a nonviolent conclusion. There were no government armored vehicles rumbling around the Freemen’s compound, and members of the FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team walked about in nonthreatening sneakers and slacks rather than Kevlar helmets and black military-style clothing. McVeigh followed every development in the case from his prison cell with enormous interest. “I’m convinced the Freemen would be dead if not for the Murrah Building bombing,” he said.

Clinton R. Van Zandt, the former FBI agent who had tried without success to negotiate a peaceful end to the Waco standoff three years earlier, agreed with McVeigh, at least on that point. Retired from the FBI and working as a security consultant, Van Zandt feels that the government learned a painful lesson from the Oklahoma City bombing. In Van Zandt’s words, the government realized that it must become a “velvet brick,” not a battering ram. “What an absolute classic tragedy,” Van Zandt had said soon after the conflagration at Waco. “What a total indictment of mankind’s inability to communicate and relate, even though we have different religious or personal philosophies.” While Van Zandt condemned the Oklahoma City bombing, he felt that Waco had started a war, and that McVeigh’s bombing had been not only an escalation but a turning point in that war.

McVeigh said he had observed other signs that his bombing was having some effect on government policy. He did not believe it was pure coincidence that, four months after the Oklahoma City bombing, the government finally made amends for its actions at Ruby Ridge. It entered into a $3.1 million settlement with Randy Weaver and his surviving children; in exchange the Weavers dropped a $200 million civil suit they had filed against the government.

(Interestingly enough, Anders Breivik also liked the "tree of liberty" quote. He included the direct quote more than five times in his manifesto and referred to the tree of liberty many more times in between.)

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma City and Waco    Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:16 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

(Interestingly enough, Anders Breivik also liked the "tree of liberty" quote. He included the direct quote more than five times in his manifesto and referred to the tree of liberty many more times in between.)
Anders Breivik and Timothy McVeigh are very similar in my opinion. I honestly would not be surprised if Anders was a McVeigh copycat.
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