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 The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris

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Littlelo
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PostSubject: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:36 pm

What information do you *realistically* believe we will obtain when the depositions become available regarding the Harris family? What are you most interested in learning?

Sue Klebold admitted in her book that she didn't believe the depositions were helpful to anyone involved; could this mean there won't be much new material to be gained from them?
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:40 am

Even if nothing new comes to light from the Depositions, I still want to see them.  As this would be the only first hand info directly from the Harris's and not just rumors and speculation.

Sue Klebold's book and various interviews have given us a small glimpse into Dylan's life. We have an idea to how Dylan was behaving and acting before 4/20. We even know what his last verbal word was to his mother before he left their house that morning.  

I would love to know what Eric's behavior was like leading up to the shootings. I want to know if Wayne or Kathy thought everything was perfectly fine with him and that he was finally on track. OR if they had picked up on any red flags since Wayne had documented troubles Eric had previously. I want to know what the Harris's hindsight is like. If they have looked back and said "Ah, that was something we should have paid more attention to".  I want to know if Eric had them fooled completely or if they knew something was wrong and just didn't act soon enough.  The Depositions will not be released for several years. The last I heard was they possibly will be released in 2023?  So the chance of any new info no matter how slim is the reason most will gladly wait.

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Even if nothing new comes to light from the Depositions, I still want to see them.  As this would be the only first hand info directly from the Harris's and not just rumors and speculation.

Sue Klebold's book and various interviews have given us a small glimpse into Dylan's life. We have an idea to how Dylan was behaving and acting before 4/20. We even know what his last verbal word was to his mother before he left their house that morning.  

I would love to know what Eric's behavior was like leading up to the shootings. I want to know if Wayne or Kathy thought everything was perfectly fine with him and that he was finally on track. OR if they had picked up on any red flags since Wayne had documented troubles Eric had previously. I want to know what the Harris's hindsight is like. If they have looked back and said "Ah, that was something we should have paid more attention to".  I want to know if Eric had them fooled completely or if they knew something was wrong and just didn't act soon enough.  The Depositions will not be released for several years. The last I heard was they possibly will be released in 2023?  So the chance of any new info no matter how slim is the reason most will gladly wait.

I'm in the same boat regarding what the Harris's may or may not have known/suspected about Eric. The fact that Wayne had a journal about him shows that he at least cared enough to worry about his future, performance in school, and place in the community.

I wonder if he distanced himself noticeably from them towards the end (as he suggested in the Basement Tapes). I wonder what his last words were to them. You're right, even if there isn't "new" info, just hearing things from their perspective and how they conducted themselves during the depositions would be fascinating.
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:14 am

Do you think we will get the full depositions or just a summary like the basement tapes one included in the 11k? We're talking about hours of depositions. And in which format are they gonna be presented? Not all of them were transcribed, so maybe audio/video recordings? Anyway, I'm sure by the time they release them, a lot stuff will be "lost"…

Rocky Mountain News wrote:
The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown. Not all of the depositions had been transcribed, so computer disks from the court reporter were turned over, according to the court order.

This is what Lauren Townsend's mother said about the depositions by the way, she released a statement on behalf of all five victims' families that witnessed them.

Dawn Anna wrote:
"We were not satisfied with many of the answers they gave, and we left the depositions shaking our heads in wonder at some of the things they said. But at least we got some answers."

Anna said Thursday the same questions went through the minds of the families of the dead students.
Anna said they included: "Were the shootings the act of a random unpredictable blowup by these two? Were there warning signs that alerted the Klebolds and Harrises about what their sons were doing?"

"We believe we know the answers to these questions, but because of the court's order, we must now live with the almost unbearable frustration of not being able to tell anyone else," she said.
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do you think we will get the full depositions or just a summary like the basement tapes one included in the 11k? We're talking about hours of depositions. And in which format are they gonna be presented? Not all of them were transcribed, so maybe audio/video recordings? Anyway, I'm sure by the time they release them, a lot stuff will be "lost"…

Rocky Mountain News wrote:
The latest material to be added to the room involved the depositions of the gunmen's parents and Brown. Not all of the depositions had been transcribed, so computer disks from the court reporter were turned over, according to the court order.

This is what Lauren Townsend's mother said about the depositions by the way, she released a statement on behalf of all five victims' families that witnessed them.

Dawn Anna wrote:
"We were not satisfied with many of the answers they gave, and we left the depositions shaking our heads in wonder at some of the things they said. But at least we got some answers."


Anna said Thursday the same questions went through the minds of the families of the dead students.
Anna said they included: "Were the shootings the act of a random unpredictable blowup by these two? Were there warning signs that alerted the Klebolds and Harrises about what their sons were doing?"

"We believe we know the answers to these questions, but because of the court's order, we must now live with the almost unbearable frustration of not being able to tell anyone else," she said.

Wow, great info, thanks. I've never seen that quote from Lauren's mom but it puts things in a very different perspective for me. I'm not sure what form the depositions will be in when released, but I'd bet it will be only the parts that were transcribed. I would be really interested in audio, however.
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:24 pm

I don't think there will be a ton of shocking new information but probably some interesting tid bits here and there.

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:44 am

I don't know what we will see, but I don't think we will get any real answers so to speak. The ones who knew the reason for the massacre are long gone. I think we will get some better info from the families on the personalities of the boys leading up to it and anything they noticed, which may or may not be anything.


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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:18 am

[quote="Gonz"]Do you think we will get the full depositions or just a summary like the basement tapes one included in the 11k? We're talking about hours of depositions. And in which format are they gonna be presented? Not all of them were transcribed, so maybe audio/video recordings? Anyway, I'm sure by the time they release them, a lot stuff will be "lost"…


While I would love to believe that we will get the Depositions in its entirety upon release, realistically we will likely receive several small excerpts. As with everything Columbine related, we are only given certain pieces of the puzzle.

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:22 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] too true about the "pieces of the puzzle" comment. It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

I can draw a parallel to the massacre itself- different parties all held different pieces to the puzzle (police, school, friends, parents) and yet no one was able to put them all together.

ETA: unrelated, but since we're talking about unreleased evidence, I'm still so angry at E&D for not sending copies of the basement tapes to different news organizations like they said they wanted to
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:27 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] too true about the "pieces of the puzzle" comment. It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.

I can draw a parallel to the massacre itself- different parties all held different pieces to the puzzle (police, school, friends, parents) and yet no one was able to put them all together.

ETA: unrelated, but since we're talking about unreleased evidence, I'm still so angry at E&D for not sending copies of the basement tapes to different news organizations like they said they wanted to



After 18 years of countless dedicated Columbine researchers, one would think that someone would have stumbled across a copy of the Basement tapes and released it by now... Sadly no one has.  I don't think we are meant to have all the pieces of Columbine. Which is why even after 18 years it has refused to go away, also why I doubt it ever will. People want to know why it happened, why so many chances slipped by to stop it. People seeking these answers is why JeffCo will be forever haunted by the ghosts of Columbine.

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:56 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.
"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:10 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.
"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"


I know this was not directed towards me, but I feel compelled to answer. I can only speak for myself, but I want to know the reason two kids chose to plot and murder. I want to know the reason E&D became so cold and cruel as to taunt and gun down innocent people. I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.

Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so. This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents, but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert. I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

I really feel like he wanted help but everyone involved just looked at the surface and never tried to get past Eric's intelligent, calm, everything is going fine front. His doctor pretty much looked at him assuming he was ok, yet kept upping his med's. That leads me to believe that Eric had discussed still having problems with his doctors. Yet they tried to medicate it away instead of getting to the underlying cause of his anger and depression.  In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too? I would LOVE to see Eric's case notes from his sessions with Kevin Albert. Or just anything from Kevin Albert regarding Eric.

Dylan is another story altogether. I honestly think he was so far gone in his mental illusions and depression that he wasn't aware of how badly he needed help. Almost like he was incapable of seeking help for the simple reason that in his twisted mind he didn't feel like he needed it. In his opinion it was everyone else who needed help. He didn't feel human, and was in pain and saw death as the end to it.  On another note, Dylan in my thoughts was a far better manipulator then Eric. As he had most everyone fooled. His family and friends were in shock after learning he was a part of it. While Eric's anger was there for everyone to see, and no one was really all that surprised when they realized he was involved.

So there is a reason for everything. There was a reason for Eric's anger and Dylan's depression, but knowing and understanding their reasons are a different matter. We may never know all the reasons behind Columbine, but we do have a very vague idea. The issue with Columbine is that 18 years later we still have more questions then answers.

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.
"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"


I know this was not directed towards me, but I feel compelled to answer. I can only speak for myself, but I want to know the reason two kids chose to plot and murder. I want to know the reason E&D became so cold and cruel as to taunt and gun down innocent people. I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.

Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so. This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents, but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert. I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

I really feel like he wanted help but everyone involved just looked at the surface and never tried to get past Eric's intelligent, calm, everything is going fine front. His doctor pretty much looked at him assuming he was ok, yet kept upping his med's. That leads me to believe that Eric had discussed still having problems with his doctors. Yet they tried to medicate it away instead of getting to the underlying cause of his anger and depression.  In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too? I would LOVE to see Eric's case notes from his sessions with Kevin Albert. Or just anything from Kevin Albert regarding Eric.

Your thoughts on Eric intrigue me. I always thought of him as manipulative; and while part of me still does, I never stopped to think about the times he was honest. The questionnaire he filled out was something he could have so easily lied on, but instead he told truthfully how he was feeling. My mind is spinning a little right now, because this is not something I thought about before.
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:34 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.
Okay.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so.

You think a bunch of people who ignored a jewish kid having his hair set on fire or freshmen being used as bowling balls and beaten up in halls are going to care? What's worse is those kind of issues were discreetly swept under the rug.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents.

Sure , but I'll give the same answer as above. You think a bunch of fireworks set at night or paintballed garages or glue on handles/locks or some internet 'threats' in a time where internet users were seen as geeky losers are going to gain the full attention of authorities?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
...but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert.

Blame is easy after the facts have been set. Sure , he could've done more. Do you believe your mother is capable of going in someone's house and hacking them to pieces? Maybe she can. You'll surely know after all is said and done.  I'm sure neither did he or any adults nearby had any idea. These small red flags weren't so glaring at the time compared to after 17 years where we have the full facts neatly put together. All they had were small , very spread apart warning signs that not a single adult could put together at the time. If all those adults didn't have a hunch, what makes you think you could've?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

Because he was a roller coaster both in emotions and in thinking.(ex: For someone who talks about murdering people for a year , he surely 'showed them' by walking past class rooms with plenty of targets or changing his beliefs as he himself claimed) Someone with a strong conviction will do everything possible to fulfill whatever plan they set for themselves... like Cho. Having doubts leads to chaos... just like his and Dylan's movements by the end of the rampage.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too?

Actually he cared too much for his own good. The hatred directed at himself was one of the most powerful weapons he had to move onto the killings of both his peers and himself. I do agree that being ignored or seen as less than contributed heavily.
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Your thoughts on Eric intrigue me. I always thought of him as manipulative; and while part of me still does, I never stopped to think about the times he was honest. The questionnaire he filled out was something he could have so easily lied on, but instead he told truthfully how he was feeling. My mind is spinning a little right now, because this is not something I thought about before.

Definitely check out some of the older threads on here. There have been a lot of in depth discussions about this subject in the past year, and a lot of interesting perspectives on it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:00 am

As far as Eric and wanting help for his mental health issues, I do think at first he was honest and hopeful for help. I think he admitted he was having issues and tried meds and therapy. But I think after he tried it he realized it wasn't helping him. Like others who go to therapy and try meds he then gave up

He didn't take meds like he was supposed to, he started to lie his way thru his therapy (at least in my opinion) and his views started to get darker and darker.

I think by the end of his life, he was just as negative as Dylan as far as outlook. I don't think it started out that way, but I do think it ended up that way

It would be interesting to see what Albert thought of Eric but in a way I don't think what he will say will be the actual truth. I think everyone in the families saw both Eric and Dylan with rose colored glasses. They may have thought there might be some trouble there but for the most part I think they just saw them as regular teens. So I think the depositions will mostly be showing how these people thought they saw the boys. Not how they were. There might be some hindsight affecting things but I am not sure what I will be able to get from them. I still want to see them nonetheless however.

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:39 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I want to know why they decided to end their lives and those of others instead of graduating and moving on.
Okay.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Mainly I want to know how so many people had the chance to intervene yet for some reason failed to do so.

You think a bunch of people who ignored a jewish kid having his hair set on fire or freshmen being used as bowling balls and beaten up in halls are going to care? What's worse is those kind of issues were discreetly swept under the rug.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This falls most heavily on JeffCo and the parents.

Sure , but I'll give the same answer as above. You think a bunch of fireworks set at night or paintballed garages or glue on handles/locks or some internet 'threats' in a time where internet users were seen as geeky losers are going to gain the full attention of authorities?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
...but we also can't leave out Eric's psychologist Kevin Albert.

Blame is easy after the facts have been set. Sure , he could've done more. Do you believe your mother is capable of going in someone's house and hacking them to pieces? Maybe she can. You'll surely know after all is said and done.  I'm sure neither did he or any adults nearby had any idea. These small red flags weren't so glaring at the time compared to after 17 years where we have the full facts neatly put together. All they had were small , very spread apart warning signs that not a single adult could put together at the time. If all those adults didn't have a hunch, what makes you think you could've?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I have said this before, I think Eric knew something was wrong and that he needed help. He answered truthfully when asked on paperwork if he had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, he checked yes to both. He was also truthful when asked about being depressed. If he was such an expert deceiver, why didn't he also lie on the paperwork? If he was so concerned about trying to fake his way thru everything, why would he take a chance on getting found out by being honest about his issues?

Because he was a roller coaster both in emotions and in thinking.(ex: For someone who talks about murdering people for a year , he surely 'showed them' by walking past class rooms with plenty of targets or changing his beliefs as he himself claimed) Someone with a strong conviction will do everything possible to fulfill whatever plan they set for themselves... like Cho. Having doubts leads to chaos... just like his and Dylan's movements by the end of the rampage.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In my opinion Eric just got to a point where he no longer cared anymore. What was the point if no one else seemed too?

Actually he cared too much for his own good. The hatred directed at himself was one of the most powerful weapons he had to move onto the killings of both his peers and himself. I do agree that being ignored or seen as less than contributed heavily.


These are actually snippets from my post that Littelo had quoted, so I will respond.

I wholeheartedly agree that bullying at Columbine was ignored and downplayed as much as humanly possible by the school. For whatever reason certain people within the student body were given free passes, and were never held accountable for their actions. After the shootings occurred,  no one wanted to except their part in the tragedy. No one wanted to admit that their negligence may have added fuel to Eric and Dylan's fire.

Would I be able to spot the red flags?  As a mommy of two small children 7 and 5, I hope they would be able to come to me or their Dad with any issues they might have down the road.  I hope I would be able to notice if my child was so lost in depression and self loathing that they were thinking about suicide. I hope I would see the hurt and burning rage in my child soon enough to seek help that might actually make an impact. Eric's parents apparently picked up on something otherwise he wouldn't have been in therapy. Maybe Eric's psychologist missed the bigger picture, missed the deeper issues. Maybe by that point Eric didn't want to be or couldn't be that easily helped anymore.

You also mentioned the word "blame", as a matter of fact I do blame several people for Columbine. First and foremost I fully blame Eric and Dylan. After all they were the ones who planned and then carried out the deed. Taking innocent lives is never right. No matter the reasons behind it, no matter their rage and depression. Do I feel sympathy for Eric and Dylan? Yes. I feel sorry for the lives they took that day, including their own.  I feel sorry they didn't get the chance to grow up and have a life, or experience the world. I feel sorry for the ones wounded both physically and mentally. I feel sorry for the family and friends who were left trying to piece their lives back together afterwards.

Second I do blame JeffCo. They had numerous opportunities to stop what happened given the Brown's reported Eric way before Columbine became a sad reality.  Why the dots were never fully connected is anyone's guess. But given JeffCo's desperate attempts of covering their own ass following 4/20, makes me believe it was mainly missed due to shoddy police work. Why else would JeffCo go to such extreme lengths to bury the Brown's report and deny that it ever existed? Why else would they try to divert attention off the report they swore had never been filed by saying Brooks was involved? For one simple reason, the department cared more about covering up after themselves then uncovering the truth.  

While I do agree that hindsight is 20/20, to say that we have the full facts of Columbine neatly put together is a ludicrous statement. JeffCo lied and backtracked so much that I doubt anyone involved with the case knew what the true facts were anymore. The public mostly received bold faced lies and half truths. We will never have the full picture of Columbine.

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InsaneIntruder
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:03 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.
"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"
Is that from the song "I, Brenda Spencer, do not particularly enjoy the 1st day of the week, known as Monday"?
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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:41 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It feels like we never get the full story with Columbine.
"Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?"
Is that from the song "I, Brenda Spencer, do not particularly enjoy the 1st day of the week, known as Monday"?


Yes.

_________________
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
                                                                                         -Friedrich Nietzsche


I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
               -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: The Depositions - Wayne and Kathy Harris   Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:37 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
With all due respect I am not sure if anything the H&K parents said would have satisfied some of the victims families, at least not at this point. Most of the victim's relatives were very angry, which of course they had a reason to be, and for some years held the H &K parents very responsible and went after them full bore for some years in lawsuits and the media
One of those sets of parents were Lauren's Mom and stepdad. Her stepdad even said in 13 families that he holds them in some responsibility but there is nothing he can do about it even though it will drive him crazy for as long as he lives.

There were a few families like the Scotts' that did not take that path even in the early days.

.

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