Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum

A place to discuss the Columbine High School Massacre along with other school shootings and crimes.
Anyone interested in researching, learning, discussing and debating with us, please come join our community!
 
HomeHome  PortalPortal  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Share | 
 

 The validity of the journals

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
btvs899705



Posts : 11
Join date : 2013-04-22

PostSubject: The validity of the journals   Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:25 pm

I apologize if this is already a topic. I tried a search first for the topic, but I couldn't find anything in particular. When I lurked on the first forum and I think I've read some people's opinions on this one too, many people seem to agree that much of Eric's journal was written with the intent that it would be read by an audience after the massacre. He tried, for the most part, to sound like this crazy,  cold, angry killer who was much more big and bad than he was. It seems like a lot of amateur researchers into Columbine feel like his journal is not as representative of his true mind or feelings because he wrote for an audience. However, people tend to accept Dylan's as much more genuine. I know I do. However, is it possible that Dylan did the same thing as Eric? Was he "smart" enough or "self aware" enough that he wanted to leave this much more sympathetic journal behind, knowing that it would paint him in a softer light?
I think that it could be possible, but I doubt it for 2 reasons. The first being that he has some embarrassing information in there like the porn, masturbation, and girls he liked. This would not have fit with the outside image he had of himself as a tough guy, and I don't think he would want people to know this stuff. The second reason is that Dylan was much more introverted and self reflective than Eric was, in my opinion, I feel like he would more inclined to writing a journal anyway. Eric, in my opinion, only took it up when NBK was coming together and did so only to keep a record of it for his eventual fame.   But, why didn't he destroy it then as he did with his hard drive? If he was conscientious enough to not leave his hard drive behind for all to see, it seems like he would do the same with his journal. This aspect kind of makes think that maybe he could have been writing knowing or hoping people would read it one day. He talked about having followers and everything, so part of him knew that what he left behind might be scrutinized. Is it possible that he kind of just forgot about the journal or something? If it is a genuine piece of writing, I guess I don't understand why he would leave it behind since it would be seen by so many. He might have craved fame to a degree, but not enough that I think he would want all of his most secret feelings available for all to see.

Lastly, why is it that most of the "experts" who have written about Columbine, take Eric's words at face value and never consider that his journal might be him trying to sound bigger and badder than he was? I think anyone who reads it can see that he is writing for an audience. Yet, it never gets mentioned and the journal seems to be cited as the basis for why people think he was a psychopath. That always frustrated me that these experts never seem to consider this.
Back to top Go down
StinkyOldGrapes



Posts : 293
Join date : 2013-06-12
Location : Planet Earth

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:31 pm

That psychopathy thing really shits me off. A psychopath is unable to feel empathy. Enjoying mass murder isn't the same as being unable to feel empathy.

The average person doesn't refrain from mass murder because they have empathy. They refrain from it because they have no desire to do it in the first place.

Whether Eric was or wasn't showing off in his journal does nothing to support or disprove the psychopathy claim.

Personally, I think Eric was, like you said, trying to sound bigger and badder than he was. And it worked, he's impressed me.

_________________
I bring NOTHING to the table.
Back to top Go down
StinkyOldGrapes



Posts : 293
Join date : 2013-06-12
Location : Planet Earth

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:50 am

I hope that last post wasn't too harsh. I wasn't implying that you, btvs899705, were saying that Eric is a psychopath. I was just ranting that I'm sick of Eric being portrayed like that based on screwy logic Very Happy

_________________
I bring NOTHING to the table.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:20 am

You know, I think it never fully occurred to Dylan that his journal would be such a topic of interest. Dylan started that journal purely for himself. He needed an outlet for what he was going through outside of the self-medicating and stuff he was doing, so a journal was the most logical option for him to choose. I don't think that he counted on the journal being taken into evidence and then released to the general public. (I think he would have hated it -- his entire heart strewn out for the entire world to see?) I think that the journal was a place for him to get his stream of thoughts in order a bit, to purge himself from the intensity of his feelings, that kind of thing.. Smile 

I have no clue why he messed with his harddrive to the point where nothing can be recovered from it. (JeffCo, seriously, I don't think you even tried to get files off that thing as the years progressed and our knowledge about such things improved.) My best guesses are that he either had elaborate NBK-related stuff on there, or that he was simply ashamed of what sort of porn he was watching. In the first case, Dylan would be quite manipulative.. It was Eric who had virtually all the plans and such everywhere you looked, so by removing the NBK-info from his own harddrive Dylan would be dropping almost the entirety of the 'blame' on Eric. It's an interesting scenario, but probably not the most likely one.

Eric.. I have a problem with Eric. I have a problem with the fact that he puffed his chest up in almost every single inch of material we've got from him. I have a problem with the fact that he put on this huge show and acted exactly the part he wanted to play in this. The boy frustrates me. I am convinced that what he wrote was mostly what he thought/felt, but I also think he amplified the parts he knew were going to sound godawful to the general public. Also, I think Eric was pretty impulsive with the stuff he came out with. He backtracks a little in some places. He contradicts himself quite a few times over the course of the journal alone. I don't think he had a set outlook on life. Something would eventually come along to make him feel/think differently, after which he'd adjust some of what he was saying. He was trying to find his voice and his identity, but the boy was so confused that he never got beyond the stage of 'big bad Reb'.

I think it's easier for the 'experts' and for the general public to take Eric's words at face value and to have Dylan be that nice sensitive dude who got trapped in the spider's web. It's the easy way out. It's the way most people 'understand' Columbine, because the reality that it's pretty much guesswork and that we can't be sure of much of anything concerning the case is too hard for them to handle. It's easier to treat Columbine as an anomaly (psychopath dude gets nice fluffy dude to follow him into a massacre) than it is to see the case as a symptom of a much larger and more painful disease in our society. It's easier to turn a blind eye.
Back to top Go down
Kinney



Posts : 38
Join date : 2013-06-14

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:35 am

I definitely think Eric wrote his journal for an audience. I think he wrote it in that manner because that's what he craved, an audience, someone to listen to him. I believe he probably did truly think a lot of the thoughts he wrote down, but he definitely chose the part of his personality that was most "masculine" and "threatening" to showcase. Maybe writing all that hate made him feel better about himself, rather than writing about how he was insecure, was getting treatment he viewed as shitty at school, how he wanted a girlfriend, wanted respect (in the normal fashion, not the narcissistic respect he demanded on face value). At least in his domain, his own journal, he could sculpt and create the persona he saw of himself, or wanted. He had complete control of how he could depict his character in those pages and probably ranted his little head off to convince even himself that was his TRUE nature, he was just being overlooked and ignored by school/society and this was his true outlet.

I think he occasionally "did a Dylan" with his journal, like his last entry and the part where he admitted he picks on people who look like him. If that isn't an admittance of a deep-rooted self-hatred then I don't know what is. To me those are the "honest" parts, where he's actually digging a little deeper beyond his superficial hatred and rage. He's actually discussing his own idiosyncrasies and why he feels the way he feels (something Dylan does pretty much through the entirety of his journal). I find those entries a lot more psychologically valuable than his ranting and raving. It shows a lot more of their (self-acclaimed) self-awareness than when he's yapping on about bombs and guns and killing people. Not that I don't feel he believed that stuff, I just think his presentation of those thoughts is so contrived, so desperate. That contrivance I think is why people believe it was for an audience.

Realised I've just chatted on there for quite a while. I agree with you though, I find it very narrow-minded that people just take ANYTHING either of these two said at face value. Though I do think because a lot of people who knew them called them intelligent, we are all at a risk of giving them far too much credit for things they did/said/believed and looking deeper for their "hidden meaning". Sometimes a spade is just a spade.

_________________
The rarer action is in virtue than in vengeance.
Back to top Go down
Kinney



Posts : 38
Join date : 2013-06-14

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:38 am

Also - thedragonrampant, I agree with everything you said Smile

_________________
The rarer action is in virtue than in vengeance.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:27 am

I'm glad this topic was brought up. First, I do think Eric's journal was, for the most part, written for an audience. He seemed to be trying very hard to come off as a real badass. Alot of the stuff is over-the-top & I think he knew it, but it played up a tough guy image. And it is peculiar how the experts have never seemed to even consider that idea.

As for Dylan, I have often wondered if it occurred to him that his journal might become public domain. Surely he knew that by leaving it behind his family, at the very least, would see it. Although it's possible, I find it hard to believe that he just simply forgot to get rid of it if he didn't want it to be discovered. After all, he did intentionally chuck his hard drive (yeah, probably because of the porn). I wonder how he would feel knowing the whole world can read those thoughts. Perhaps he did leave them behind so his family, friends, & even followers I suppose could understand him better. *sigh* I just don't know.
Back to top Go down
Love
Top Contributor


Posts : 204
Join date : 2016-12-06

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:31 pm

Journal of Eric, full of hatred. Yes, he wrote it for the audience. But I think it could well reflect his real feelings. Eric wrote it's not every day (and Dylan). Maybe he sat down to write, when he had the appropriate mood. On other days, Eric could attend other thoughts, doubts, or even hope for the future (who knows).
By the way, this scene reminded me of Eric))) I'm sorry. Just imagine that instead of the Grinch is Eric, and instead of the phone book is his yearbook with photos of students.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
BlackandWhite

avatar

Posts : 46
Join date : 2016-12-20

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:53 pm

Eric definitely wrote his journal with the media in mind. Especially if you reread it, it's so obvious.. One day he's ranting about something and then the next he's like "ah I've been loving nazism lately", it becomes clear he's just falsely adopting all these views to come across as a badass. He writes a bunch of racist things but all the people that knew him said he was never racist. I don't think he believed even half the stuff he wrote honestly
Back to top Go down
Jenn
Forum Owner
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-03-13
Location : A place where it always snows.

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:00 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Eric definitely wrote his journal with the media in mind. Especially if you reread it, it's so obvious.. One day he's ranting about something and then the next he's like "ah I've been loving nazism lately", it becomes clear he's just falsely adopting all these views to come across as a badass. He writes a bunch of racist things but all the people that knew him said he was never racist. I don't think he believed even half the stuff he wrote honestly
Exactly. And this journal is what so called "doctors" used to come to the conclusion that Eric was a psychopath. It's so ridiculous that I can't believe that not only did these doctors come to this conclusion using a journal that was clearly written for an audience but that there are tons and tons of people who actually believe it.

_________________
"If only I could press rewind"
Back to top Go down
Love
Top Contributor


Posts : 204
Join date : 2016-12-06

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:41 am

You want to say that Eric really have not experienced the hatred of people?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Why he wrote some things that describe him as touchy and devoid of self-respect, if he wanted to show himself cruel? Why show your weaknesses, if you want to seem strong?
Or is it as I think one thing, say another, and do absolutely not what I say and think.

_________________
I just want something I can never have.
Back to top Go down
EGSandrew

avatar

Posts : 61
Join date : 2016-12-16

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:22 am

I think it's a combination of both writing to an audience and personal thoughts. Some entries could just be written to make him sound cool, others could just be random passing thoughts that he had recently, and others could be how he really feels. We'll never know. No two days are the same. When you're conspiring to kill as many people as possible in a school massacre you're going to have days of random thoughts that don't mean anything. This is a high school senior's mind; there's all sorts of crazy stuff we think of in that stage of life. When I was in high school I would constantly dive into the dark depths of my mind and think these types of things; still do at 24. Either way, I still find the journal fascinating no matter how valid it is.

_________________
I had to die in order to truly live. Just because I think you're okay today doesn't mean I won't hate you tomorrow.
Back to top Go down
BlackandWhite

avatar

Posts : 46
Join date : 2016-12-20

PostSubject: Re: The validity of the journals   Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:47 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Or is it as I think one thing, say another, and do absolutely not what I say and think.

That could be the case, yeah. Teenagers are unreliable, their thoughts and emotions are all over the place. That's something I'd think psychiatrists would understand (apparently not). He was definitely angry but I think he said things that would make him seem even angrier, tougher etc. also just to mask his insecurities. And his friends said that even when he talked about wanting to blow up the school or whatever, everyone sort of took it as a joke.
Back to top Go down
 
The validity of the journals
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Anglo zulu war historical society journals.
» Org. XIV (Secret Reports and Journals)
» Black Soldiers Of The Queen by P.Thompson
» AZWHS JOURNALS
» Anglo Zulu War Historical society Journals

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Thoughts on the Shooting-
Jump to: