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 Why is it wrong to kill people?

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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:39 pm

I'm not advocating murder as a solution to people's problems, but since I'm still trying to comprehend Columbine, I have a question: Why is it wrong to kill people?

E/D enjoyed the thought of killing people. Why shouldn't a person do what they enjoy?

The threat of punishment doesn't apply to people, like E/D, who are willing to commit suicide -they can't be punished for their crimes. They suffer no consequences.

Why should E/D have have put other people's lives before their own enjoyment?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:06 pm

That's a question you're going to have to answer yourself. If a person isn't on board with the whole, "Killing people is wrong," thing, then there's nothing I can do convince them otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:25 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
That's a question you're going to have to answer yourself.  If a person isn't on board with the whole, "Killing people is wrong," thing, then there's nothing I can do convince them otherwise.

It's not good enough to just say "Killing people is wrong".

Is it wrong because you experience an adverse feeling towards killing others?

Why wouldn't you kill a person? Because you have no desire to?

Come on sergeant hartman, have some guts and answer the hard questions for once, instead of just picking on the easy fangirl targets.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:20 am

Eric and Dylan shouldn't have killed those people for fun because it is my belief that they shouldn't have killed those people for fun.  I'm not sure where my morals came from.  Brain chemistry?  Learning from other human beings?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:20 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
I would never cause an intense amount of pain and misery just to have some fun before I die.  I have this thing called empathy.

I'm certain that Eric enjoyed the thought of killing others.

A quick Google search of "homicidal fantasies" shows that many, many people enjoy the thought of killing others. School shooting fantasies also seem to be extremely common.

If these people enjoy these thoughts, but don't act on them, then there must be a reason why they choose to deny themselves this enjoyment.

Most of these people claim they refrain from murder because they don't want to spend the rest of their lives in jail. This leads me to wonder what would happen if they became suicidal, as E/D did. Without the threat of jail, would they still refrain from murder?

Your personal reason for not hurting others is this: Empathy.

I can't define empathy, but I assume this means that you experience an unpleasant feeling when you cause suffering to others?

So, you refrain from murder because murdering would make you feel unpleasant?

Isn't it the case then, that what you are calling "empathy" is really just a desire to avoid something that would make you feel unpleasant?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:38 am

Yes, the whole egotism vs. altruism debate.

I don't kill people because it would make me feel awful and it would cause other people to feel awful.  I'm acting in an altruistic manner because I have continuously not murdered people my entire life.

Now you're going to ask, "Why is acting in an altruistic manner the right thing to do?"
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:20 am

I don't believe in coincidences and I think everyone has a purpose in life. If you kill that person prematurely their achievements and contributions to society will be non-existent. If we all just started killing each other everything would collapse. You like driving cars, grocery stores, and money don't you?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:23 am

I think everyone has their individual reasons as to why killing is 'wrong'. I have certainly entertained the thought in the past, but the one thing that always held me back was not fear of jail or anything of the sort. What held me back was knowing how many other people I would hurt if I killed the people I wanted to kill. It would make me feel awful to take the life of someone I didn't care much about but who I knew other people loved very much. Smile I think it is also a part of empathy to be able to put yourself in other people's shoes and allow yourself to feel the kind of loss they would suffer if you went through with a plan like that. (Plus, on a spiritual level, I feel like everyone's got their place and purpose on this earth and that it is not my place to decide when/if they're no longer deserving of that place and purpose. I think that this is also a component in why people might sometimes entertain the thought of taking another person's life, but don't end up following through with it.)
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:26 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
I don't kill people because it would make me feel awful and it would cause other people to feel awful.

The problem here is that you already know that causing suffering to others makes you feel awful, so it's impossible to tell whether you actually care about other people, or whether you just don't want to make yourself feel bad by hurting them.

The situation becomes different when murder is no longer an unpleasant act, but an enjoyable one.

If murder was enjoyable to you, you would no longer be held back by the threat of unpleasantness to yourself. You may be held back by the thought of jail. But if you were willing to commit suicide, then what would hold you back?

That's the situation E/D were in.

Quote :
Now you're going to ask, "Why is acting in an altruistic manner the right thing to do?"

Sort of.

But I've never seen a human being act in an altruistic manner. I don't think it's possible to do.

People, to the best of their ability, do the things that bring them pleasure, and avoid the things that cause them pain. If they put off pleasure now, it's only because they believe it will give them an opportunity for greater pleasure in the future.

The thought of mass murder brought E/D great pleasure. There was nothing else greater that they could see. So, they did what every other human being on the planet does -they did what was most pleasurable to them.

To me, E/D aren't monsters. They're behaving like every other human being on this planet: Pleasure seeking.

E/D aren't the exception. They are the rule.


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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:32 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm not advocating murder as a solution to people's problems, but since I'm still trying to comprehend Columbine, I have a question: Why is it wrong to kill people?

E/D enjoyed the thought of killing people. Why shouldn't a person do what they enjoy?

The threat of punishment doesn't apply to people, like E/D, who are willing to commit suicide -they can't be punished for their crimes. They suffer no consequences.

Why should E/D have have put other people's lives before their own enjoyment?

You have two questions, one concerning killing and one concerning enjoying. They are kind of strange, there's no real answer to them. Is it ok to kill people? Most would say "no", if you ask them was it ok to kill Bin Laden most (Americans) would say "yes". So in my opnion there is a difference between humans and objects, depending on your perspective (and media indoctrination) a person can be either. Another thing is, randomly killing people wrecks society and reduces your own chances to survive (apart from the suicidal this doesn't sound attractive to most). The previous is also why people shouldn't do exactly as they like, humans are herd animals so the interest of the herd goes first.
Where E/D really enjoying themselves, or were they laughing because they build up tension for months and now they were finally releasing it, did they kill objects or humans? I read somewhere the people who looked in thier eyes weren't shot (maybe they were recognized as human?). And more even Eric mentions it in his own diary, he must not be sidetracked by feelings of sympathy and he will force himself to believe that everyone is just another monster like FH or FS or demons from Doom. He was enjoying Doom though, but it doesn't imply that he also enjoyed the actual killing (depending on his mindset at the time). I'm sorry for the lack of cohesion in my answer, but it was a difficult question and a lot of thoughts pop up in my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:38 am

trench coat wrote:
If we all just started killing each other everything would collapse. You like driving cars, grocery stores, and money don't you?

E/D didn't like those things. They hated everything. They wanted the world to collapse.

You're arguing that E/D should have refrained from killing because no one wants to live in a shitty world where people are killing each other... That doesn't apply to E/D's situation, because E/D wouldn't be around to experience that world.

thedragonrampant wrote:
It would make me feel awful to take the life of someone I didn't care much about but who I knew other people loved very much

This is exactly my point: Killing people would make you feel awful. You don't kill because it would make you feel awful. You refrain from killing to avoid making yourself feel unpleasant.


Very Happy PLEASE READ THIS: This thread is NOT a personal attack against anyone. It's a discussion. You're opinions will differ from mine and that doesn't mean I hate you. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


The problem here is that you already know that causing suffering to others makes you feel awful, so it's impossible to tell whether you actually care about other people, or whether you just don't want to make yourself feel bad by hurting them.

I demonstrate my care for other people every single day by not killing them.  You may observe them through my actions.  

Quote :
The situation becomes different when murder is no longer an unpleasant act, but an enjoyable one.

If murder was enjoyable to you, you would no longer be held back by the threat of unpleasantness to yourself. You may be held back by the thought of jail. But if you were willing to commit suicide, then what would hold you back?

I can't answer what I would do if I were a person that I am not.



Quote :
Now you're going to ask, "Why is acting in an altruistic manner the right thing to do?"

Sort of.

But I've never seen a human being act in an altruistic manner. I don't think it's possible to do.

Gaining pleasure from helping others = / = not acting altruistic
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:57 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
I demonstrate my care for other people every single day by not killing them.

No. You demonstrate that you will not engage in activities that are unpleasant to you (killing).
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:02 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
sergeant hartman wrote:
I demonstrate my care for other people every single day by not killing them.

No. You demonstrate that you will not engage in activities that are unpleasant to you (killing).

There seems to be some confusion here.  I'm telling you what I'm demonstrating. I'm demonstrating my care for other people every single day by not killing them.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Another thing is, randomly killing people wrecks society and reduces your own chances to survive (apart from the suicidal this doesn't sound attractive to most). The previous is also why people shouldn't do exactly as they like, humans are herd animals so the interest of the herd goes first.

When a person is suicidal, as E/D were, the state of the world left behind no longer matters, as you have said. The threat of living in a shitty, broken down society isn't a threat to someone willing to commit suicide.

E/D had no good reason to refrain from doing whatever they wanted to.

Anyone who enjoys the thought of murder and is willing to commit suicide, will act on their desires, in my opinion. That isn't monstrous or evil; it's actually a perfectly human way to behave. All human beings do what is most pleasurable. Sometimes that pleasure is an act of violence.

Quote :
Where E/D really enjoying themselves, or were they laughing because they build up tension for months and now they were finally releasing it, did they kill objects or humans? I read somewhere the people who looked in thier eyes weren't shot (maybe they were recognized as human?). And more even Eric mentions it in his own diary, he must not be sidetracked by feelings of sympathy and he will force himself to believe that everyone is just another monster like FH or FS or demons from Doom. He was enjoying Doom though, but it doesn't imply that he also enjoyed the actual killing (depending on his mindset at the time). 

If Eric didn't enjoy murder, then he was a fool to throw his life away doing something he didn't enjoy.

Personally, I feel that Eric did enjoy it, and that Dylan fed off Eric's vibe and came to enjoy it as well. I don't know if they enjoyed the actual murder, but I think they enjoyed what the murder meant to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:08 am

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
thedragonrampant wrote:
It would make me feel awful to take the life of someone I didn't care much about but who I knew other people loved very much

This is exactly my point: Killing people would make you feel awful. You don't kill because it would make you feel awful. You refrain from killing to avoid making yourself feel unpleasant.

I see where you're coming from with this and am inclined to agree. I'm also pretty certain that I personally would've derived a great deal of pleasure from what I had in mind for some people, but I chose not to act on any of that because I knew how awful it'd make other people I had no problem with feel. If I didn't stop to think about their friends, their families, etc.. who knows what I would've gotten myself into? I guess you could say that the thought of the individual kill didn't make me feel unpleasant, but that the thought of what it'd do to others did? (I'd still count that as some weird form of empathy, to be honest with you.)

In regards to the case, I'm not at all sure if what they did that day was as enjoyable as they'd hoped/expected it would be. Yes, you can clearly hear the exhiliration and the 'thrill' on the 911 tape. It's the release of months/years of pent-up frustration and the re-enactment of an oft-had fantasy. Doesn't mean that the acting of killing people was still enjoyable for them once the initial rush died down. Doesn't mean that their victims didn't turn into human beings again right in front of them, instead of simply staying nameless and faceless 'monsters' they just had to pick off one by one. There are quite a lot of questions left open in regards to why they made the decisions they did and how they experienced that day, but we'll never get an answer to any of them because the boys both chose to end their lives then and there. (I think the only plan they had left, in the end, was that they would not be taken from that school alive. Everything else was improv.)
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:11 am

Quote :
"Anyone who enjoys the thought of murder and is willing to commit suicide, will act on their desires, in my opinion. That isn't monstrous or evil; it's actually a perfectly human way to behave. All human beings do what is most pleasurable. Sometimes that pleasure is an act of violence."

If killing isn't an evil act, then what is an evil act?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:13 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
sergeant hartman wrote:
I demonstrate my care for other people every single day by not killing them.

No. You demonstrate that you will not engage in activities that are unpleasant to you (killing).

There seems to be some confusion here.  I'm telling you what I'm demonstrating.  I'm demonstrating my care for other people every single day by not killing them.

No confusion here. Let me explain:

You have made it clear that killing people would make you feel bad. So, when you go around NOT killing people, you aren't demonstrating that you care for them, you are simply demonstrating that you will not do something that makes you feel bad.

If killing people would make you feel bad, then that doesn't make you a caring person for NOT doing it. It just makes you a person who cares about your own happiness.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:18 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
Quote :
"Anyone who enjoys the thought of murder and is willing to commit suicide, will act on their desires, in my opinion. That isn't monstrous or evil; it's actually a perfectly human way to behave. All human beings do what is most pleasurable. Sometimes that pleasure is an act of violence."

If killing isn't an evil act, then what is an evil act?

What's an evil act depends on your world view. In medieval Europe burning a witch wasn't considered evil, today it would be a cruel thing to do.Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:19 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


No confusion here. Let me explain:

You have made it clear that killing people would make you feel bad.

Have I?  How do you know that I'm not lying?  Can you read my thoughts?

Quote :
So, when you go around NOT killing people, you aren't demonstrating that you care for them, you are simply demonstrating that you will not do something that makes you feel bad.

How am I demonstrating this?  Again, can you read my thoughts?

Quote :
If killing people would make you feel bad, then that doesn't make you a caring person for NOT doing it. It just makes you a person who cares about your own happiness.

And again.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:27 am

thedragonrampant wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
thedragonrampant wrote:
It would make me feel awful to take the life of someone I didn't care much about but who I knew other people loved very much

This is exactly my point: Killing people would make you feel awful. You don't kill because it would make you feel awful. You refrain from killing to avoid making yourself feel unpleasant.

I see where you're coming from with this and am inclined to agree. I'm also pretty certain that I personally would've derived a great deal of pleasure from what I had in mind for some people, but I chose not to act on any of that because I knew how awful it'd make other people I had no problem with feel. If I didn't stop to think about their friends, their families, etc.. who knows what I would've gotten myself into? I guess you could say that the thought of the individual kill didn't make me feel unpleasant, but that the thought of what it'd do to others did? (I'd still count that as some weird form of empathy, to be honest with you.)

I would still argue that you were acting in your own self-interest by refraining from murder. The pleasure of the individual kill wasn't great enough to outweigh the displeasure of hurting people who mattered more to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:36 am

What kind of bizarre definition of self-interest are you using?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:37 am

Isn't every act you commit in your own self-interest?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:38 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
So, when you go around NOT killing people, you aren't demonstrating that you care for them, you are simply demonstrating that you will not do something that makes you feel bad.

How am I demonstrating this?  Again, can you read my thoughts?

You've argued that your personal choice to not kill people is evidence that you care about people.

But because you have no desire to kill people to begin with, it isn't reliable evidence of your caring.


Quote :
Quote :
If killing people would make you feel bad, then that doesn't make you a caring person for NOT doing it. It just makes you a person who cares about your own happiness.

And again.

You claimed to feel empathy towards others. That claim suggests that hurting others makes you feel unpleasant.

So, by refraining from murder, you are demonstrating that you are a person who cares about your own happiness.

You have demonstrated that you care about yourself, but there is no evidence that you care about others.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:40 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Isn't every act you commit in your own self-interest?


"A self-interested act is doing something because you are putting your own interests over and above others. If, however, you are acting on behalf of others, with an interest in others (the desire to help someone constitutes just such an interest), then I don't think it makes much sense to call that a self-interested action."

Not my words but I like it.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:42 am

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
thedragonrampant wrote:
I see where you're coming from with this and am inclined to agree. I'm also pretty certain that I personally would've derived a great deal of pleasure from what I had in mind for some people, but I chose not to act on any of that because I knew how awful it'd make other people I had no problem with feel. If I didn't stop to think about their friends, their families, etc.. who knows what I would've gotten myself into? I guess you could say that the thought of the individual kill didn't make me feel unpleasant, but that the thought of what it'd do to others did? (I'd still count that as some weird form of empathy, to be honest with you.)

I would still argue that you were acting in your own self-interest by refraining from murder. The pleasure of the individual kill wasn't great enough to outweigh the displeasure of hurting people who mattered more to you.

But here's the thing: I have never met/spoken with any of the people who turned into the reasons why I didn't just go for it. Would they still count as 'people who mattered more' to me, even if I had no personal connection with any of them and didn't know what they were like or what their relationship with the person I did want to see dead was like? Whatever pleasure I would have felt at the individual kill wasn't great enough to outweigh the displeasure I felt at hurting all the people who'd mourn this individual, even though I had never personally met any of the would-be mourners. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing that there's a strong pleasure-component in the actual act of killing. I think your basic premise here has merit, especially in a case such as Columbine.)
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:44 am

Quote :
You claimed to feel empathy towards others. That claim suggests that hurting others makes you feel unpleasant.

So, by refraining from murder, you are demonstrating that you are a person who cares about your own happiness.

You have demonstrated that you care about yourself, but there is no evidence that you care about others.

I don't kill others because I care about my feelings.  My evidence?  My thoughts.
I don't kill others because I care about other people's feelings.  My evidence? My thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:47 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Isn't every act you commit in your own self-interest?


"A self-interested act is doing something because you are putting your own interests over and above others. If, however, you are acting on behalf of others, with an interest in others (the desire to help someone constitutes just such an interest), then I don't think it makes much sense to call that a self-interested action."

Not my words but I like it.

If I see someone in need, even though this is an unknown person to me, I tend to help this person. Why, because it makes me feel good (and there's my self-interest!).
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:50 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Isn't every act you commit in your own self-interest?

That's exactly my point.

E/D were acting -to the best of their abilities- in their own self-interest. That means they are acting the same way that every other human being on the planet acts.


sergeant hartman wrote:
What kind of bizarre definition of self-interest are you using?

I define self-interest as what brings you the most pleasure.

sergeant hartman wrote:
"A self-interested act is doing something because you are putting your own interests over and above others. If, however, you are acting on behalf of others, with an interest in others (the desire to help someone constitutes just such an interest), then I don't think it makes much sense to call that a self-interested action."

But how do you know the desire to help someone else isn't just a desire to make yourself feel good by helping them?

Helping someone is pleasurable. So, once again, you are doing it only for to make yourself feel good.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:03 am

So StinkyOldGrapes, what's wrong with not killing people based on self-interest? I'm getting the idea this discussion is on a side path.
By the way I'm reading Mark Ames at the moment, so I see where you're coming from.
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