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 Why is it wrong to kill people?

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Undyne

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:07 am

Quote :
But how do you know the desire to help someone else isn't just a desire to make yourself feel good by helping them?

I know this because of my thoughts. Where else am I supposed to get my answer other than my own thoughts?
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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:11 am

thedragonrampant wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I would still argue that you were acting in your own self-interest by refraining from murder. The pleasure of the individual kill wasn't great enough to outweigh the displeasure of hurting people who mattered more to you.

But here's the thing: I have never met/spoken with any of the people who turned into the reasons why I didn't just go for it. Would they still count as 'people who mattered more' to me, even if I had no personal connection with any of them and didn't know what they were like or what their relationship with the person I did want to see dead was like? Whatever pleasure I would have felt at the individual kill wasn't great enough to outweigh the displeasure I felt at hurting all the people who'd mourn this individual, even though I had never personally met any of the would-be mourners. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing that there's a strong pleasure-component in the actual act of killing. I think your basic premise here has merit, especially in a case such as Columbine.)

What you are saying is that you feel displeasure at the thought of hurting people you have never met?

If that's the case, then you are still refraining from murder because of the threat of displeasure. You're still looking out for your own emotions.

But there's a deeper question here too: Why do you feel displeasure at the thought of hurting people you've never met? I think it's probably a common human feeling.

E/D may have also felt displeasure at the thought of hurting people they had never met, just like you do. But the pleasure they felt at the thought of attacking their school and going down in fame was greater than the displeasure.

To me, there's no evidence that E/D didn't care about people, but just that killing them felt even better.
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Undyne

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:19 am

What Eric and Dylan did was not a, "Normal human thing to do." It was abnormal. I know that it was abnormal because most humans don't do it.
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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:28 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
So StinkyOldGrapes, what's wrong with not killing people based on self-interest? I'm getting the idea this discussion is on a side path.
By the way I'm reading Mark Ames at the moment, so I see where you're coming from.

That Mark Ames book is my favorite. His sense of humor is awesome. The part where he says "I get the feeling that Columbine is the American Idol of school shootings". Ha! It's so true. No matter what these new shooters do, they just get brushed off as "another Columbine". No one can outdo E/D!

There's NOTHING wrong with refraining from murder based on self-interest. In fact, I advocating doing so. The only reason I haven't killed anyone myself is because of self-interest. It sure as hell isn't because I care.

E/D get called monsters because they were doing something that felt good to them, but EVERYONE in the world does what feels good to them. If murder-suicide had felt good to any of the other teenagers at Columbine High, you can bet they would have acted on those desires too.

The real question about Columbine, to me, is: Why did murder feel so good to them?

People say they want to prevent another Columbine from happening, but the best they can do towards achieving that goal is to say: "Don't kill people. It's wrong."




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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:45 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
Quote :
But how do you know the desire to help someone else isn't just a desire to make yourself feel good by helping them?

I know this because of my thoughts.  Where else am I supposed to get my answer other than my own thoughts?

Sure. You have to trust in your own thoughts. There's no other way to live.

You can choose to believe that you personally refrain from murder because you care about others- and not simply because murdering would make you feel bad- but just because believing that thing makes you feel good, doesn't mean it's the truth.

What feels good for you to believe in doesn't automatically make it the truth.

It doesn't mean that your beliefs about yourself are wrong, but just because they make you feel good isn't an indication that they are true either.

Random killing is a lousy way for a society to operate, but that doesn't make it wrong. It just wouldn't suit the majority of people.

E/D may have committed an act that upset's people's self-interests, but that doesn't make the act wrong.
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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:55 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
What Eric and Dylan did was not a, "Normal human thing to do."  It was abnormal.  I know that it was abnormal because most humans don't do it.

Most humans don't dress the way I do? Does that make it abnormal?

Many humans fantasize about doing what E/D did. They don't do it because they don't want to die.

The only thing unusual about E/D is how willing they were to die for their anger.

The shooting spree wasn't abnormal behavior, but the lack of regard for their own lives was downright rare.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:07 am

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
What you are saying is that you feel displeasure at the thought of hurting people you have never met?

Yes. In fact, the thought of hurting people who've never wronged me personally makes me feel sick to my stomach.

Quote :
If that's the case, then you are still refraining from murder because of the threat of displeasure. You're still looking out for your own emotions.

Looking out for my own emotions, sure, but also taking the emotions of others into account and letting that influence my eventual decision.

Quote :
But there's a deeper question here too: Why do you feel displeasure at the thought of hurting people you've never met? I think it's probably a common human feeling.

I presume that it is a form of empathy. It's not something I feel the word 'displeasure' can capture adequately. It's the fact that merely thinking about the loss they would suffer makes my heart ache for them. I can imagine what they would feel and am able to put myself in their shoes. I wouldn't wish that kind of loss and heartache on anyone.

Quote :
E/D may have also felt displeasure at the thought of hurting people they had never met, just like you do. But the pleasure they felt at the thought of attacking their school and going down in fame was greater than the displeasure.

To me, there's no evidence that E/D didn't care about people, but just that killing them felt even better.

No, I agree, there is no evidence that they didn't care about people. (I could possibly even find a way to stretch that statement to say that maybe there was a time they cared too much and put their own selves on the line too much.) Eric, in particular, mentions things like having to forcibly distance himself from his family and wanting to see 'old friends' again. That doesn't exactly sound like someone who doesn't give a damn about people full-stop. It's just that both their 'care'-factors downsized over time to include only a very few individuals they deemed 'worthy' or whatever. I think the rest of the human race turned into collateral damage/cannon fodder for them.

You don't go from liking people to wanting to kill almost everyone on the planet in the space of a few days or weeks or even months. I'd argue, and have argued before, that this was a really gradual process that spanned possibly most of their lives. It ended up getting to the point where they believed 'NBK' to be the only valid option for their community, themselves and society as a whole. The segment in Eric's journal where he speaks of maybe wanting to leave a few of the 'primitive tribes' behind on this planet but get rid of civilised society as a whole is something that vividly illustrates the magnitude of his feelings about most of the human race, his overall sense of powerlessness in dealing with humanity and his subsequent wild plan to take the entire school out and go down with it. He created that entire plan based on the premise that humanity in its current civilised state is not worth saving. I don't know how much of it truly was a source of pleasure for him. It felt like business to me on his part. He's very different from Dylan in that respect. I truly believe that Dylan had the time of his life that day. I'd even argue that Dylan was a pleasure-killer who was literally only involved in 'NBK' for two reasons: the thrill/fun of the killing game and the act of taking his own life at the end of that game.
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Achimenes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:25 am

Using "you" in the general sense here.

Killing yourself is your choice.

Killing someone else is making a choice for them that isn't your choice to make. Their lives don't belong to you.
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Undyne

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:37 pm

I gave my opinion on why I think that killing humans is wrong.  If you're just going to shoot it down by saying, "No opinion is absolute truth," then why the heck did you ask my opinion in the first place?  That's why I said to seek out the answer yourself, because I knew right from the start that this is where the conversation was headed.


Last edited by sergeant hartman on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Using "you" in the general sense here.

Killing yourself is your choice.

Killing someone else is making a choice for them that isn't your choice to make. Their lives don't belong to you.

This!!!

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JDM87



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:46 pm

Homicide is a tantalizing thought, I gotta confess. I think that everyone fantasizes over killing any person at one time or another, whether it be out of feelings of anger or pure hatred, etc. It is apparent to me, that E/D had a deep animosity towards snobs and jocks, and although I do know they didn't specifically target anyone on NBK, they wanted to go out and fulfill their fantasy w/out caring about consequences too much. The consequences of a crime, particularly murdering another person, are pretty big. Think of the recent case with George Zimmerman.

I think, the bottom line is that homicide is just cruel and thoughtless (apologies for the cliche's) . Why does taking another person's life arouse your sense of satisfaction? Or more aptly, how does it?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:02 pm

Homicide is selfish.  While it may satisfy a killers needs it arbitrarily forfeits the lifespan of the intended target/s, and by extension, leaves a major deficit in the family and friends of the victims. Killing is one of those passionate actions that has a deep devastating impact.   Like rape, which causes an emotional, psychological ruination of the intended victim, killing causes the end of someones physical body and without the victim's say so. And who is to say the family or friend's of your victim/s won't suddenly develop a sudden itch for revenge, to kill you in return for stealing the life of their loved one?  For every action there is an equal or opposite reaction.   By altering the course of another person's life and snuffing it out, you may have erradicated someone that could have been an worthy contributor to society.  An inventor, a scientist - someone that found the cure for cancer?  Who knows.  No one can say for sure but after the person is gone, there will never be the opportunity to fully see the potential that life may have had.  To someone that wants to kill, none of that obviously matters because the pleasure is a purely self centered and a temporary rush for pleasure.  While revenge might be sweet, it's also short lived and doesn't last.  After the deed is done, there is no positive benefit derived of it for killer or victim or the rest of the world.  If you hope to kill and live to tell, you'll have to weigh the long and short term benefits.  The result is a really off balance scale not in favor of the killer.  

D & E would not have done NBK if they knew they would survive afterward and suffer the repercussions.  They understood well that in killling and taking revenge, their life was forfeit.  They had hit rock bottom enough to not care that their life was forfeit.  "We don't give a shit because we're going to die doing it."   But E & D would never reap any enjoyable benefits of NBK; they would never witness any of the infamy they hoped to leave in their wake.  Where's the reward in that?  They would also never have to deal with the haunted,  pained look as their parents eyes as they came to visit them in prison.   Someone like T. J. Lane who killed for satisfaction and opted to live, his killing pleasure was a minute blip in time compared to the controlled, rigid life he now lives in prison.  He had maybe five minutes of infamy in the court room flaunting his arrogance, flipping the bird at the victim's families.  But what did that gain him for the rest of his life?  A life in prison probably getting butt raped by others. Worth it?   You'd  have to ask yourself.  Weigh the options, what is the benefit?   Now if we didn't have an accountable, somewhat civilized society, you can take a time machine and regress to the Wild, Wild West where you can quick draw whenever you feel like it.  Just don't be surprised if a noose eventually finds a way to your neck.  ;)   If you have a killing urge, go play video games or go watch The Purge.  Exorcise and satisfy those impulses in fantasyland and you'll never had to bother with steep, permanent repercussions.
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JDM87



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:14 pm

I totally agree, InFiNiNcEX5.
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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:22 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
I gave my opinion on why I think that killing humans is wrong.  If you're just going to shoot it down by saying, "No opinion is absolute truth," then why the heck did you ask my opinion in the first place?  That's why I said to seek out the answer yourself, because I knew right from the start that this is where the conversation was headed.

I apologize if you felt that I was attacking your beliefs. I know you can't see my intentions behind a computer screen, but it wasn't my intention to "shoot you down". I have greatly valued your contributions to this topic, and I'm grateful for the time that you, and everyone else, has spent on this topic. I have deeply considered everything that has been said by everyone in this topic.

I question my own beliefs all the time, and part of the way I do that is by asking other people what they believe, and why they believe that.

If I seemed to be "shooting down your beliefs", it was only because I was hoping that you would do that same to me. :DI am looking for people to point out the flaws in my beliefs so that I can improve the way I see the world.

My perception is that you believe you care about other people beyond the amount it benefits yourself, and your reason for believing this is because it feels good to believe that. I am not attacking your belief. I am merely comparing it to my own beliefs to challenge myself.

Once again, I was looking for people to attack my beliefs, so that I could improve my worldview, and also the way that I understand Columbine and E/D.

Please accept my apologies if it seemed that I was attacking you. (And the same applies to everyone else on the board). No offence was intended to anyone.
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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Homicide is a tantalizing thought, I gotta confess.

Because the topic of homicidal thoughts is a sensitive one, I feel the need to make this clear: I am not planning to kill anybody. I simply wouldn't do it, and I don't advocate other people doing it. This conversation is discussion only.

I will be honest and say that there are times when I'm a bit envious of E/D.

E/D were heavily armed and suicidal, and that put them in a position of great power. They were free to let loose. There's something extremely liberating about that.

thedragonrampant wrote:
Yes. In fact, the thought of hurting people who've never wronged me personally makes me feel sick to my stomach.

I'm getting the impression that most people on the board share this feeling of being sick to the stomach at the thought of hurting people in the way E/D did? Whether that feeling is out of self-interest or genuine empathy doesn't matter -the feeling is obviously very real.

Myself, I make a strong effort to avoid hurting others, but the thought of doing what E/D have done doesn't invoke any revulsion in me. It definitely doesn't make me sick to my stomach.

sergeant hartman said earlier on that he "would never cause an intense amount of pain and misery just to have some fun before I die." This is how I view Columbine too. To me, it's not a question of whether or not a rampage would be fun -I personally feel that it would be- but whether it's ever justified.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:35 am

Because some of this discussion was about the pleasure of violence, I thought this article was interesting.

It's called "Humans Crave Violence Just Like Sex".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Obviously, in the past, humans had to hunt for food and protect themselves, so maybe violence is equated with success?
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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:25 pm

I'm going to pose a question that I'm sure nobody cares about, but oh well, I'm still going to pose it, just in case someone like-minded to me ever visits this forum...

The consensus on the board is that killing without good reason is wrong. Is human stupidity sufficient justification for murder?

An example: What if someone took the things I've discussed on this topic too seriously and decided that I was a threat to society and needed to be hospitalized. Discussing the morality of murder isn't justification for depriving someone of their freedom, but there are stupid people in the world who would do just that. Would I be justified in killing this person because their stupidity poses a harmful threat to me?

I think E/D felt that the stupidity of the world posed a threat to them.

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Jaan



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:49 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm going to pose a question that I'm sure nobody cares about, but oh well, I'm still going to pose it, just in case someone like-minded to me ever visits this forum...

The consensus on the board is that killing without good reason is wrong. Is human stupidity sufficient justification for murder?

An example: What if someone took the things I've discussed on this topic too seriously and decided that I was a threat to society and needed to be hospitalized. Discussing the morality of murder isn't justification for depriving someone of their freedom, but there are stupid people in the world who would do just that. Would I be justified in killing this person because their stupidity poses a harmful threat to me?

I think E/D felt that the stupidity of the world posed a threat to them.

No you won't be justified, because killing a person because he may get you hospitalized will actually get you hospitalized (Contradictio interminis). And beside that, killing this person isn't the only solution.
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StinkyOldGrapes



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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:27 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
No you won't be justified, because killing a person because he may get you hospitalized will actually get you hospitalized (Contradictio interminis).

I get how you are saying that pre-emptively killing someone who may pose a threat to you is actually fulfilling your own prophesy, but when a person is suicidal -as E/D were- the worst threat has already been fulfilled.

It's all well to say that people demonstrate their compassion for others by not killing them, but if the only thing people respected was E/D's lives and not their freedom and dignity to live those lives, then something had to be done about it.

If someone plans to lock me in their basement for the rest of my life, I'm justified in defending myself (which may include killing that person), even if that person never planned to kill me. How much human pain does another person have to cause you before murder is justified?

Quote :
And beside that, killing this person isn't the only solution.

I think E/D would agree with that. Killing people wasn't the solution. Suicide was the solution. And killing people was just some kind of retrospective self-defense.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:02 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You have two questions, one concerning killing and one concerning enjoying. They are  kind of strange, there's no real answer to them. Is it ok to kill people? Most would say "no", if you ask them was it ok to kill Bin Laden most (Americans) would say "yes". So in my opnion there is a difference between humans and objects, depending on your perspective (and media indoctrination) a person can be either.
I was thinking more about this. Interesting how you said that people can be "humans" or "objects". Did E/D really lack empathy, or did they simply see killing people as a means to an end they desired, thus reducing them to objects?

And, when I think about it, don't we all treat humans like objects most of the time? We may not go around killing people, but we don't exactly care about their well being either.

Has anyone read David Bohm's book "On Dialogue"? He argues that we don't actually talk to each other with the intention of trying to sincerely consider someone else's viewpoint, but that we talk to them with the intention to convince them of our own viewpoint.

I would also argue that we don't talk to to others as "humans" but rather as "objects" -as a means to an end. We talk to others to alleviate our boredom, or to make ourselves feel good, or to alleviate loneliness, but we don't talk to them with to intention of actually getting to know them and care about them.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:02 pm

For me, killing for entertainment is not okay. And it is not in fear of any punishment. I think that the matter is inherent in every human empathy is a natural mechanism, which prevents the destruction of each other individuals of the same species. People can reduce their empathy under different circumstances, but only psychopaths do not feel sympathy at all. And I'm definitely not a psychopath.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:34 am

Unlike many other girls, I enjoy quite a lot gore and bloody violence in movies and games. Nevertheless, I think mindless homicides in the real world are wrong because you could end lives which could enrich yours in some ways. I would never kill for anything in the world somebody who might be completing, let's say, my next favourite book or music album or videogame. Or somebody who helps his/her loved ones on a daily basis. Everybody is useful in their own ways.
While it's true that if you were a serial killer, and you happened to end somebody's life, you could actually prevent bigger tragedies (think about a murderer who kills a person that would've turned out to be a kamikaze in the next couple of years), I think that everybody deserves a chance to live and make the most out of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:24 pm

It's wrong because you are removing a life from this world that affects many other people's lives. Because life is an inalienable right. It's wrong because people lives have potential for greatness and by killing them you are removing that potential from the world.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:30 am

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
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PostSubject: Re: Why is it wrong to kill people?   Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:37 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Or do unto others as they do unto you. Laughing

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