What did Dylan mean by this

Hey guys, I just wanted to talk about this one quote from Dylan's journal that I've never understood.

" 5 more days. 5 eternitys. & i know he & i are concieved from ourselves & each other. every night of the self-awareness journey, every thought we concieved, we have finished the race. time to die. everything we knew, we were able to understand it, to percieve it, into what we should, everything we knew, we know & use. an understanding of the everything. An einstein stuck in an ant's body. we are the nature of existence. the zombies were a test to see if our love was genuine. we are in wait of our reward, each other. the zombies will never cause us pain anymore. the humanity was a test. I love you, love. Time to die, time to be free, time to love."

It's pretty clear that Dylan was talking about Eric here and not about the girl he had a crush on. So how does that explain the last few sentences?

It's hard to decipher. Both Harris and Klebold loved movies. A lot of what they said is pulled from films, this sounds quite a bit like something from Blade Runner which I know Klebold has quoted more specifically before.

"All those moments will be lost, like tears...in... rain. Time to die."

Who knows what it means. When you're lost in your writing and in the moment, sometimes it's only the writer who can decipher it's true meaning.

I can't look the exact citation up right now, but Krabbé argues in his book that there is a chance Dylan meant to say 'her' instead of 'he'. (I'll check it out this evening and get back to you on this, okay?) I also think there's a strong possibility that the last sentence is derived from a movie or directly quoted from something else.

If he did mean Eric, then that solidifies my theory that Dylan found a 'home' and a place to belong in Eric. I don't think he would mean this romantically, but more as the strong sort of love you have for someone who's by all rights and purposes a 'soulmate'. (Dylan's entries are so jumbled-up in symbolism sometimes that it's hard to figure out what he meant by some things. It comes off as cryptic to anyone else reading it.)

thedragonrampant wrote:

I can't look the exact citation up right now, but Krabbé argues in his book that there is a chance Dylan meant to say 'her' instead of 'he'. (I'll check it out this evening and get back to you on this, okay?) I also think there's a strong possibility that the last sentence is derived from a movie or directly quoted from something else.

If he did mean Eric, then that solidifies my theory that Dylan found a 'home' and a place to belong in Eric. I don't think he would mean this romantically, but more as the strong sort of love you have for someone who's by all rights and purposes a 'soulmate'. (Dylan's entries are so jumbled-up in symbolism sometimes that it's hard to figure out what he meant by some things. It comes off as cryptic to anyone else reading it.)

It being from a movie or him not meaning it romantically makes sense, but I don't think he meant "she" because the whole "5 days" thing makes it sound like he's talking about NBK/Eric. But then again, I haven't read Krabbé's book so I don't know.

"So I wait.. 5 more days. 5 eternitys. & i know he & i are concieved from ourselves & each other. every night of the self-awareness journey, every thought
we concieved, we have finished the race. time to die. everything we knew, we were able to understand it, to percieve it, into what we should, everything we knew,
we know & use. an understanding of the everything.

The paragraph seems ambiguous.  It could be applied as to how Dylan sees his joint connection with Eric and their united "self aware/godlike" destiny on the earth.
But then Dylan begins to meander into referencing his Object de Affections.

I do think Krabbe is correct that the word is a "her".  So, you could interpret the whole paragraph as about his destiny with his love.

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Dylan's other occurences of the word 'her' in general, the "r" has a slight upward hook at the end.  Sometimes his writing is so sloppy free flowing that he
gets lazy on the "r" and it barely shows up-or- it doesn't show up at all and appears as a mistaken 'he' as the loop starts to go up but then abruptly stops.

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"So I wait.. 5 more days. 5 eternitys. & i know heR& i are concieved from ourselves & each other. every night of the self-awareness journey, every thought
we concieved, we have finished the race. time to die. everything we knew, we were able to understand it, to percieve it, into what we should, everything we knew,
we know & use. an understanding of the everything.

Still, his loose train of thought could be about a combination of both who he shares a fate with.

Pink: His destined love
Purple: The Gods: Himself with Eric

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xmichaelmyersii wrote:

It's hard to decipher.  Both Harris and Klebold loved movies.  A lot of what they said is pulled from films, this sounds quite a bit like something from Blade Runner which I know Klebold has quoted more specifically before.

"All those moments will be lost, like tears...in... rain.  Time to die."

Who knows what it means.  When you're lost in your writing and in the moment, sometimes it's only the writer who can decipher it's true meaning.

I do like the twist that Dylan put on the Blade Runner quote.  He embellished it and made it even more poetic.

"These moments will be lost in the depressions and caverns of the human books forever, like, tears, in rain, but the thoughts will be eternal."

Beautiful.  Especially when you consider that Dylan deleted his hard drive and left his journal behind.  The moments (memories) may have been lost; but his thoughts will be eternal.

And you're right about getting lost in the moment in your own meanderings.  Thought thoughts/words - sloppy and free flowing - end up on the page and are really only the most meaningful for yourself.  
I know some think Dylan sounds like a delusional loon but I appreciate the esoteric flavor of his writing.   It's like deciphering the puzzle of his mind.

Okay, I'm typing this on my phone right now so please forgive me if there's a weird spelling somewhere.

Krabbe indeed mentions that Dylan paraphrases the movie Blade Runner in this part of his journal. I thought it was interesting how the original phrase is spoken by an artificial intelligence at the time of his death. Maybe Dylan felt a kinship with this character?

Later in the book, Krabbe revisits the entry. He mentions that the little squiggle at the end of 'he' looks just like Dylan's words that end in '-er', as shown in this thread as well. The end of the 'he' looks very different from any word that does end with an e, such as love and die.

The last words, from "we are the nature of existence" onward, can only mean the Girl. (Krabbe capitalises Dylan's love ideal in such a way throughout the book.) There are seven 'we'-mentions in this text that could be about Eric. It would require him to have made a random leap of thought twice, from Her to Eric and back again -- but it wouldn't be the first time his thoughts jumped around like that.

Krabbe does not believe he meant Eric. The entire fragment details a journey. Now that 'we' understand everything and now that 'we' are ready, the journey is complete. It's the awareness journey Dylan wrote about before: the journey to death and freedom with Her. And then, writes Krabbe, there is the tone in which this fragment is written. Dylan never speaks of Eric with affection in all his writing. This tone in this fragment is, however, one of love. Love for Her. The dream of the halcyon, the test of earthly life, and finally the reward: each other.

Krabbe goes on to make a very interesting point. Eric held on to Dylan for dear life, but the love was unrequited. Dylan didn't care about Eric. He went out of his way for him because Eric gave him what he needed: acceptance. Dylan used Eric for his own NBK, which was very different from what he made Eric think. If anyone had the other fooled, it was Dylan.

thedragonrampant wrote:

Okay, I'm typing this on my phone right now so please forgive me if there's a weird spelling somewhere.

Krabbe indeed mentions that Dylan paraphrases the movie Blade Runner in this part of his journal. I thought it was interesting how the original phrase is spoken by an artificial intelligence at the time of his death. Maybe Dylan felt a kinship with this character?

A fake facsimile of a human is what Dylan resonated with.  It's that inate sense of feeling separate and not connected with humanity.  He looks human but he's knows he's not.  He can't blend in.

thedragonrampant wrote:

The last words, from "we are the nature of existence" onward, can only mean the Girl. (Krabbe capitalises Dylan's love ideal in such a way throughout the book.) There are seven 'we'-mentions in this text that could be about Eric. It would require him to have made a random leap of thought twice, from Her to Eric and back again -- but it wouldn't be the first time his thoughts jumped around like that.  

Krabbe does not believe he meant Eric. The entire fragment details a journey. Now that 'we' understand everything and now that 'we' are ready, the journey is complete. It's the awareness journey Dylan wrote about before: the journey to death and freedom with Her. And then, writes Krabbe, there is the tone in which this fragment is written. Dylan never speaks of Eric with affection in all his writing. This tone in this fragment is, however, one of love. Love for Her. The dream of the halcyon, the test of earthly life, and finally the reward: each other.

I think there is a good possibility that Dylan is jumping around between Eric and his love.  Though I see where Krabbe is going with the "we" in reference to Dylan's circle of completion with his love, it also still seems a very likely possibility that Dylan is encompassing "we" as in his unity with Eric and the journey they have been on together in partnership up to the NBK destiny.  The sentences come across very verb active as if the two "we's" have engaged in these tasks together on the physical plane.  Something along these lines roughly:  "Every night of the self awareness journey" (writing in their journals perhaps?) "Every thought we conceived, we have finished the race" (the race toward the finish line on the "toilet earth"),  "Time to die" (NBK)  "Everything we knew, we were able to understand it, to perceive it, into what we should" (we evolved and are one step beyond the zombies with our self awareness)   "Everything we knew and know and use" (we, in our state of awareness, have utilized everything around us as a means to an end)  "we are the nature of existence." (the natural selection of the gods).  

Now, when it came to Dylan's journal entries about his "everlasting love", he often spoke in a passive sense - never being with her or doing anything with her in an active sort of way.  He speaks of yearning for her, searching for her, wanting to just be one with her, but never engaging with her as the "we's" tend to suggest.  In his frustrated search for her in this existence, he had resolved to leaving it up to "Fate" to decide when he would find his True Love.  He decides that maybe it's just not going to happen for him in this life time -  but yes, in the next existence, he would be with her in the Halcyons.  I never got the impression Dylan was ever on the actual journey with his love on this plane of existence and beyond, to the halycons.  He was too caught up in trying to seek Her out.  Where is she?  When will I find her?   So, this is why I think the "we's" are when Dylan has switched to talking about him and Eric together, in unity, and their actual journey toward their final destination in this lifetime.

thedragonrampant wrote:

Krabbe goes on to make a very interesting point. Eric held on to Dylan for dear life, but the love was unrequited. Dylan didn't care about Eric. He went out of his way for him because Eric gave him what he needed: acceptance. Dylan used Eric for his own NBK, which was very different from what he made Eric think. If anyone had the other fooled, it was Dylan.

I don't know about that.  I really do think they both clung to each other equally and they both provided one another unconditional acceptance - validating one another in a way they needed that others couldn't.   Dylan did care about Eric.  Eric spent a fair amount of time pissing off Dylan's friends (Brooks, Nate, Zach) and yet Dylan stuck by Eric.  That proves his loyality.   Dylan and Eric both used one another,  willingly, to achieve their secret goal of destruction.  I do not believe that either fooled the other.   I believe Zach was Dylan's closest friend in terms of the emotional stuff they shared.  But unlike Zach and Dylan, Eric and Dylan's friendship was a useful, satisfactory, business partnership.  It became, over time, a deep brotherly bond of trust.   Dylan never mentions a whole lot about Eric in his journal but then again, he mentions Zach a scant few times in passing, and that's about it for the male friends.  Because of that fact, Eric's minor 'guest staring' in Dylan's journal really has no crucial meaning. It's simply that Dylan doesn't really write about mundane happenings with specific people in a given day. He's just not that type of journaler.

First of all, you guys all brought up really good points. I really feel like my question was answered, so thanks!

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

  I believe Zach was Dylan's closest friend in terms of the emotional stuff they shared.  

Does that mean Zach was the friend Dylan mentioned early in his journal that abandoned him? If so, how do we know this?

highwayhypnosis wrote:

First of all, you guys all brought up really good points. I really feel like my question was answered, so thanks!

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

  I believe Zach was Dylan's closest friend in terms of the emotional stuff they shared.  

Does that mean Zach was the friend Dylan mentioned early in his journal that abandoned him? If so, how do we know this?

Yes. Zach was known to be his close friends with Dylan. In the 11K, Sarah Slater describes Zach as hanging out a lot with Dylan but that Zach was often times depressed due to emotional problems. He had trouble getting girlfriends. Sarah mentioned that Zach would cry in front of her. Zach and Dylan used to talk on the phone nearly every night around 10:30. They shared a connection over their hate of CHS and talked about their depressed feelings. Zach then started seriously dating Devon Adams, also a friend of Dylan's. Dylan no longer had his sounding board as Zach had left Dylan behind and shared his feelings with Devon. Dylan felt that both his friends had abandoned him because they were now a couple. Given the timeline in Dylan's journal entry, it checks out.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

A fake facsimile of a human is what Dylan resonated with.  It's that inate sense of feeling separate and not connected with humanity.  He looks human but he's knows he's not.  He can't blend in.

Mhm, it's tied into the existential dread I mentioned in the piece I did on Dylan. To be honest, that sense of separation and disconnect is one of the reasons why I 'get' Dylan more than I do Eric most days. When I was that age, I was wholly convinced that the only thing human about me was my body. Some of Dylan's writings correspond with writings from my own journals really heavily. I still have trouble fitting in sometimes, but I mostly grew out of the whole "I'm not human"-phase over time.

Quote :

I think there is a good possibility that Dylan is jumping around between Eric and his love.  Though I see where Krabbe is going with the "we" in reference to Dylan's circle of completion with his love, it also still seems a very likely possibility that Dylan is encompassing "we" as in his unity with Eric and the journey they have been on together in partnership up to the NBK destiny.  The sentences come across very verb active as if the two "we's" have engaged in these tasks together on the physical plane.  Something along these lines roughly:  "Every night of the self awareness journey" (writing in their journals perhaps?) "Every thought we conceived, we have finished the race" (the race toward the finish line on the "toilet earth"),  "Time to die" (NBK)  "Everything we knew, we were able to understand it, to perceive it, into what we should" (we evolved and are one step beyond the zombies with our self awareness)   "Everything we knew and know and use" (we, in our state of awareness, have utilized everything around us as a means to an end)  "we are the nature of existence." (the natural selection of the gods).  
Now, when it came to Dylan's journal entries about his "everlasting love", he often spoke in a passive sense - never being with her or doing anything with her in an active sort of way.  He speaks of yearning for her, searching for her, wanting to just be one with her, but never engaging with her as the "we's" tend to suggest.  In his frustrated search for her in this existence, he had resolved to leaving it up to "Fate" to decide when he would find his True Love.  He decides that maybe it's just not going to happen for him in this life time -  but yes, in the next existence, he would be with her in the Halcyons.  I never got the impression Dylan was ever on the actual journey with his love on this plane of existence and beyond, to the halycons.  He was too caught up in trying to seek Her out.  Where is she?  When will I find her?   So, this is why I think the "we's" are when Dylan has switched to talking about him and Eric together, in unity, and their actual journey toward their final destination in this lifetime.

I see where Krabbé is going and I see where you are going, and I am undecided on this entry as-is. He could very well be speaking about the partnership with Eric, which would make sense considering the timeframe of the entry and the active figure of speech he uses. Yet, in the past, Dylan always refers to Eric (if he does at all) with a sense of.. resignation? I have a hard time putting it into words. Dylan's earliest mentions of NBK are never connected with Eric. His earliest mentions of becoming 'gods' or rising above this earth don't even include Eric. Eric was never Dylan's first choice for NBK. He is resigned to Eric, in the end, but he never speaks of him as emotionally as he speaks about, say, Zach. It'd be a major overhaul for Dylan to suddenly make this 'affectionate' entry about Eric.

With the True Love, there is a strong possibility that Dylan always spoke of her passively before because he hadn't yet found her. I think there was a moment of realisation for him that she was not on this earth. His Love was already beyond this world, in the halcyon perhaps, and death was the only way in which he would be able to reunite with her. When you look at it this way, it makes sense that he suddenly switched to speaking about her in the active sense. Everything he does with Eric is the road to reunion with her. Every little thing he puts into NBK makes him evolve to the level where he can leave for the halcyon and be with her. He is actively working to reach her, as he believes she is in the next life waiting for him and maybe even pushing him toward his goal. (I am suddenly reminded very vividly of stories I have read from people who believe their soulmate is not 'incarnated' on this earth. Some of them are so messed up about it that they'll do anything that'll allow them to reunite with them. Maybe that was the same for Dylan?)

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I don't know about that.  I really do think they both clung to each other equally and they both provided one another unconditional acceptance - validating one another in a way they needed that others couldn't.   Dylan did care about Eric.  Eric spent a fair amount of time pissing off Dylan's friends (Brooks, Nate, Zach) and yet Dylan stuck by Eric.  That proves his loyality.   Dylan and Eric both used one another,  willingly, to achieve their secret goal of destruction.  I do not believe that either fooled the other.   I believe Zach was Dylan's closest friend in terms of the emotional stuff they shared.  But unlike Zach and Dylan, Eric and Dylan's friendship was a useful, satisfactory, business partnership.  It became, over time, a deep brotherly bond of trust.   Dylan never mentions a whole lot about Eric in his journal but then again, he mentions Zach a scant few times in passing, and that's about it for the male friends.  Because of that fact, Eric's minor 'guest staring' in Dylan's journal really has no crucial meaning. It's simply that Dylan doesn't really write about mundane happenings with specific people in a given day. He's just not that type of journaler.

To be fair, that was a very small fragment of a larger theory Krabbé uses in the conclusion of the book. As a stand-alone mention, I agree that it doesn't make much sense. It is also my belief that they needed each other desperately and that the level of trust between them would have been absolute. Krabbé does not discard that belief at all, but does cite several instances where it is entirely possible that they were 'fooling' the other and/or where they almost visibly wavered in their plans. His version of Dylan is certainly darker and more callous in comparison with mentions of Dylan by other authors, though. Krabbé doesn't make any excuses for Dylan and puts him on an absolute equal level with Eric in terms of responsibility. (I think there is even an instance where he refers to Dylan as the more terrifying of the two following several mentions of how Dylan fooled his entire environment. People speak well of Dylan to the point where they have a hard time believing "he could do such a thing". Eric is almost never spoken of as warmly, and his eventual role in the massacre did not come as such a surprise. Dylan, however, harboured just as deep a loathing as Eric did. The façade Dylan put up was far stronger than any mask Eric wore. Eric was 'leaking' his true feelings all over the place; Dylan never said a damn word about them. Krabbé uses this to drive home several points, including a fantastic discarding of the whole Dylan-was-a-follower debacle.)

Look at the word eternity..... The er looks exaxtly the same as in the he(r) so I think it is "her"

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

highwayhypnosis wrote:

First of all, you guys all brought up really good points. I really feel like my question was answered, so thanks!

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

  I believe Zach was Dylan's closest friend in terms of the emotional stuff they shared.  

Does that mean Zach was the friend Dylan mentioned early in his journal that abandoned him? If so, how do we know this?

Yes. Zach was known to be his close friends with Dylan.  In the 11K, Sarah Slater describes Zach as hanging out a lot with Dylan but that Zach was often times depressed due to emotional problems. He had trouble getting girlfriends.  Sarah mentioned that Zach would cry in front of her.   Zach and Dylan used to talk on the phone nearly every night around 10:30.  They shared a connection over their hate of CHS and talked about their depressed feelings.  Zach then started seriously dating Devon Adams, also a friend of Dylan's.  Dylan no longer had his sounding board as Zach had left Dylan behind and shared his feelings with Devon.  Dylan felt that both his friends had abandoned him because they were now a couple.  Given the timeline in Dylan's journal entry, it checks out.    

I see. Thanks for answering that. I had no idea that Zach and Dylan were so close.

thedragonrampant wrote:

The façade Dylan put up was far stronger than any mask Eric wore. Eric was 'leaking' his true feelings all over the place; Dylan never said a damn word about them. Krabbé uses this to drive home several points, including a fantastic discarding of the whole Dylan-was-a-follower debacle.)

Damn, I want to read this book. Is this "We Are but We Aren't Psycho"? And was it ever translated into English?

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

highwayhypnosis wrote:

First of all, you guys all brought up really good points. I really feel like my question was answered, so thanks!

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

  I believe Zach was Dylan's closest friend in terms of the emotional stuff they shared.  

Does that mean Zach was the friend Dylan mentioned early in his journal that abandoned him? If so, how do we know this?

Yes. Zach was known to be his close friends with Dylan.  In the 11K, Sarah Slater describes Zach as hanging out a lot with Dylan but that Zach was often times depressed due to emotional problems. He had trouble getting girlfriends.  Sarah mentioned that Zach would cry in front of her.   Zach and Dylan used to talk on the phone nearly every night around 10:30.  They shared a connection over their hate of CHS and talked about their depressed feelings.  Zach then started seriously dating Devon Adams, also a friend of Dylan's.  Dylan no longer had his sounding board as Zach had left Dylan behind and shared his feelings with Devon.  Dylan felt that both his friends had abandoned him because they were now a couple.  Given the timeline in Dylan's journal entry, it checks out.    

Wait, can you link me to info on Zach and Dylan's relationship, like sources and stuff? I'm interested in that. Also, sorry for posting so much.

highwayhypnosis wrote:

thedragonrampant wrote:

The façade Dylan put up was far stronger than any mask Eric wore. Eric was 'leaking' his true feelings all over the place; Dylan never said a damn word about them. Krabbé uses this to drive home several points, including a fantastic discarding of the whole Dylan-was-a-follower debacle.)

Damn, I want to read this book. Is this "We Are but We Aren't Psycho"? And was it ever translated into English?

Yes, this is from We Are But We Aren't Psycho. It hasn't been translated into English, unfortunately, outside of the first chapter done by Mr Krabbé himself and some translations done by members of this forum. They can all be found in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. I'll have some time on my hands soon to translate a few excerpts again, but that's the best I can do because I don't want to get into trouble with the publishing company or anything of the sort.  I'll see if I can include a part relating to this specific topic, though.

thedragonrampant wrote:

Yes, this is from We Are But We Aren't Psycho. It hasn't been translated into English, unfortunately, outside of the first chapter done by Mr Krabbé himself and some translations done by members of this forum. They can all be found in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. I'll have some time on my hands soon to translate a few excerpts again, but that's the best I can do because I don't want to get into trouble with the publishing company or anything of the sort.  I'll see if I can include a part relating to this specific topic, though.

Thank you very much! Seriously, seeing an expert debunk the Klebold was a follower theory would be amazing. I hope it gets translated sometime.... Do you know if there is a plan for an official translation?

highwayhypnosis wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

highwayhypnosis wrote:

First of all, you guys all brought up really good points. I really feel like my question was answered, so thanks!

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

  I believe Zach was Dylan's closest friend in terms of the emotional stuff they shared.  

Does that mean Zach was the friend Dylan mentioned early in his journal that abandoned him? If so, how do we know this?

Yes. Zach was known to be his close friends with Dylan.  In the 11K, Sarah Slater describes Zach as hanging out a lot with Dylan but that Zach was often times depressed due to emotional problems. He had trouble getting girlfriends.  Sarah mentioned that Zach would cry in front of her.   Zach and Dylan used to talk on the phone nearly every night around 10:30.  They shared a connection over their hate of CHS and talked about their depressed feelings.  Zach then started seriously dating Devon Adams, also a friend of Dylan's.  Dylan no longer had his sounding board as Zach had left Dylan behind and shared his feelings with Devon.  Dylan felt that both his friends had abandoned him because they were now a couple.  Given the timeline in Dylan's journal entry, it checks out.    

Wait, can you link me to info on Zach and Dylan's relationship, like sources and stuff? I'm interested in that. Also, sorry for posting so much.

I would suggest checking out the 11K.  Check out "Associates" for Zach Heckler's account and other friends of E & D

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And, btw, this has become my favorite, most prized, useful index!  It's very valuable when you're trying to locate specific people's accounts - like Sarah Slaters

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