What if...?

I've just had a thought (apologies if this has been discussed before - I'm only new here) but I wonder how the media would have portrayed Columbine had someone else done the shooting. Say, for instance, Lauren Townshend - valedictorain (someone will have to explain what this is and how you qualify for it and what you can do with it as I am from the UK and we don't have things like this as far as I am aware), animal lover, sporty and a well liked student. As we are all aware of Dylan and Eric's encounters with the law but not much else as no one has spoken out much about their lives before all of it went terribly wrong, apart from Sue, Brooks and Dave Cullen (who I don't trust 100% with all the "facts" he used in his book).

As the portrayals of the victims is that they were all good people (I am not denying this at all) but underneath all of that it's interesting to think what could have been if someone else had done the shooting. How would the media portray someone who is good turned bad?

Sorry if this makes no sense but I thought it was an interesting thing to thing about.

There was a documentary about Cassie Bernall's life before she died, and before she turned to Christianity she was a rebellious kid, who even drew a picture of herself killing her parents. If she had done a shooting instead of finding Christ, then I bet it would have been no different to Eric, where they showed she had warning signs and her drawings.

I forgot Cassie was a rebellious kid. Makes you wonder as well would she have killed her parents before the massacre as Adam Lanza did with his mother before he went to Sandy Hook. Didn't she live pretty much behind Columbine as well?

HMM. If Cassie had been the shooter, then I think the media and the surrounding churches would have had a field day with the witchcraft/Devil worshiper aspect of her letters to friends and drawings.

She would indeed have been demonized much like Eric, except they actually would have had something to somewhat back up the claims as Cassie had some very "unchristian" like shit in her past.

katherinex wrote:

I forgot Cassie was a rebellious kid. Makes you wonder as well would she have killed her parents before the massacre as Adam Lanza did with his mother before he went to Sandy Hook. Didn't she live pretty much behind Columbine as well?

Yeah, I remember seeing something where they interviewed Cassie’s parents and you could see the school from the room they were filming from.

It's true, if Dylan had been a student killed in a shooting, I doubt very much we would hear about how troubled he was. It might have just been chalked up to teenage depression or hormones. They would talk about how much he was looking forward to college and his love for video games and computers. Same goes for Eric possibly joining the marines.

But there's no other possibility. Nobody else was having or would have thought about killing hundreds of people. Just Eric and Dylan.

That Rachel Scott movie seems like a joke to me. Eric wasn't thrown down the hall like that. It happened to some Jewish kid who Rocky loved to bully. Eric and Dylan got bullied yes, but not to THAT extent.

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Agreed....you can just get worked up from being in an *environment* where there's a lot of bullying...I'll always think bullying was a factor, albeit probably not "the" factor, even if it's difficult to find out about very many concrete examples of E&D getting the snot beaten out of them.

Teenagers distort things. I'm still haunted by things that happened to me, in a Midwestern high school, 16-17 years ago, and they were pretty minor compared to what one can read about Rocky Hoffschneider doing.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Agreed....you can just get worked up from being in an *environment* where there's a lot of bullying...I'll always think bullying was a factor, albeit probably not "the" factor, even if it's difficult to find out about very many concrete examples of E&D getting the snot beaten out of them.

Teenagers distort things.  I'm still haunted by things that happened to me, in a Midwestern high school, 16-17 years ago, and they were pretty minor compared to what one can read about Rocky Hoffschneider doing.  

Yea, bullying was bad in my HS but we didn't have a Rocky at all.

I believe the ketchup thing happened, though I'm sketchy on the details. The feces, bottles and the fake drug in the locker call I believe. I think Eric is the only one I've seen proof of actually being punched in the face.

Dylan was supposedly shoved. I think he used his words a lot more then trying to physically fight back.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Agreed....you can just get worked up from being in an *environment* where there's a lot of bullying...I'll always think bullying was a factor, albeit probably not "the" factor, even if it's difficult to find out about very many concrete examples of E&D getting the snot beaten out of them.  

I can agree with that. Bullying was just a small piece of a much bigger picture.

Also now that you brought it up. Is there any witness reports or school records of either Eric or Dylan being actually physically hurt, busted nose, black eye, etc?  To my knowledge there isn't, other then the one Eric talked to Kristi E. about. But maybe someone has come across something I haven't.

You would think that if Eric or Dylan was being roughed up enough to leave marks that their parents would have stepped in. I tend to think most the bullying done was more of a mental nature where their egos and self esteem took the majority of the hits.

How would the media portray someone 'good' turned 'bad'?

By focusing on ANYTHING, at any time, in that person's life that makes him/her look BAD.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Agreed....you can just get worked up from being in an *environment* where there's a lot of bullying...I'll always think bullying was a factor, albeit probably not "the" factor, even if it's difficult to find out about very many concrete examples of E&D getting the snot beaten out of them.  

I can agree with that. Bullying was just a small piece of a much bigger picture.

Also now that you brought it up. Is there any witness reports or school records of either Eric or Dylan being actually physically hurt, busted nose, black eye, etc?  To my knowledge there isn't, but maybe someone has come across something I haven't.

You would think that if Eric or Dylan was being roughed up enough to leave marks that their parents would have stepped in. I tend to think most the bullying done was more of a mental nature where their egos and self esteem took the majority of the hits.

Except for Dan Lab punching Eric in the face (which remember didn't hurt at all) I'd have to go back and look... because I can't remember anyone leaving marks or bruises on them. Granted they still could have been pushed or man handled.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Agreed....you can just get worked up from being in an *environment* where there's a lot of bullying...I'll always think bullying was a factor, albeit probably not "the" factor, even if it's difficult to find out about very many concrete examples of E&D getting the snot beaten out of them.  

I can agree with that. Bullying was just a small piece of a much bigger picture.

Also now that you brought it up. Is there any witness reports or school records of either Eric or Dylan being actually physically hurt, busted nose, black eye, etc?  To my knowledge there isn't, but maybe someone has come across something I haven't.

You would think that if Eric or Dylan was being roughed up enough to leave marks that their parents would have stepped in. I tend to think most the bullying done was more of a mental nature where their egos and self esteem took the majority of the hits.

Except for Dan Lab punching Eric in the face (which remember didn't hurt at all) I'd have to go back and look... because I can't remember anyone leaving marks or bruises on them. Granted they still could have been pushed or man handled.

That is the ONLY time I could think of as well.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Agreed....you can just get worked up from being in an *environment* where there's a lot of bullying...I'll always think bullying was a factor, albeit probably not "the" factor, even if it's difficult to find out about very many concrete examples of E&D getting the snot beaten out of them.  

I can agree with that. Bullying was just a small piece of a much bigger picture.

Also now that you brought it up. Is there any witness reports or school records of either Eric or Dylan being actually physically hurt, busted nose, black eye, etc?  To my knowledge there isn't, but maybe someone has come across something I haven't.

You would think that if Eric or Dylan was being roughed up enough to leave marks that their parents would have stepped in. I tend to think most the bullying done was more of a mental nature where their egos and self esteem took the majority of the hits.

Except for Dan Lab punching Eric in the face (which remember didn't hurt at all) I'd have to go back and look... because I can't remember anyone leaving marks or bruises on them. Granted they still could have been pushed or man handled.

That is the ONLY time I could think of as well.

Throwing things at them yes, but someone coming up and kicking Dylan or something not at all..

I would at the very least like to know if it was ketchup covered tampons or packets and tampons were a separate incident.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Not a competition. Bullying affects people differently. it's nobody's business to say well so-and-so got it worse so get over it.

Agreed....you can just get worked up from being in an *environment* where there's a lot of bullying...I'll always think bullying was a factor, albeit probably not "the" factor, even if it's difficult to find out about very many concrete examples of E&D getting the snot beaten out of them.  

I can agree with that. Bullying was just a small piece of a much bigger picture.

Also now that you brought it up. Is there any witness reports or school records of either Eric or Dylan being actually physically hurt, busted nose, black eye, etc?  To my knowledge there isn't, but maybe someone has come across something I haven't.

You would think that if Eric or Dylan was being roughed up enough to leave marks that their parents would have stepped in. I tend to think most the bullying done was more of a mental nature where their egos and self esteem took the majority of the hits.

Except for Dan Lab punching Eric in the face (which remember didn't hurt at all) I'd have to go back and look... because I can't remember anyone leaving marks or bruises on them. Granted they still could have been pushed or man handled.

That is the ONLY time I could think of as well.

Throwing things at them yes, but someone coming up and kicking Dylan or something not at all..

I would at  the very least like to know if it was ketchup  covered  tampons or packets and tampons were a separate incident.

Dan Lab was Kristi Epling's boyfriend right? I didn't know his name. But that too is the only genuine E&D pounding I can think of. Some other kid's pain can become yours, the injustice of it all.

And yet, that's all you really need....one punch. I can remember *everyone* who got into a fight with me, and it's always the first thing I think of when I think of those people.
And the thing of it was, I wasn't *bullied*....I didn't have one person, or a group of people, repeatedly come after me. They were just embarrassing incidents and I always seemed to lose, and on top of that, NOTHING nasty has really happened to me since high school ended.

The thing about Kristi's boyfriend is Eric tried to tell her that everything could be made right if he just let him punch him back & he didn't tell on him. What a weird proposition. Most guys find respectability in a "fair fight". Eric didn't care about that, apparently.

Do I have the story correct? Didn't they have notes back and forth about this?

Eric was 5'8" and 140 pounds. Why would he want a "fair fight"?

Good point. I just mean that usually guys don't want someone to essentially let them win or give them a sucker punch.

Littlelo wrote:

The thing about Kristi's boyfriend is Eric tried to tell her that everything could be made right if he just let him punch him back & he didn't tell on him. What a weird proposition. Most guys find respectability in a "fair fight". Eric didn't care about that, apparently.

Do I have the story correct? Didn't they have notes back and forth about this?

From what I remember, you are right!

I wonder what would have happened if Eric could have found a nice girl to talk him down from his anger.

[quote="Littlelo"]I wonder what would have happened if Eric could have found a nice girl to talk him down from his anger. [/quote

I think he could have been talked down for a while. I think going back to Michigan or New York would have helped too. Something about the environment he was in, didn't sit well with him.

The chances of those 2 meeting, forging a friendship and spending over a year planning a massacre that we would still be talking about are slim to none.

Littlelo wrote:

The thing about Kristi's boyfriend is Eric tried to tell her that everything could be made right if he just let him punch him back & he didn't tell on him. What a weird proposition. Most guys find respectability in a "fair fight". Eric didn't care about that, apparently.

Do I have the story correct? Didn't they have notes back and forth about this?

I always thought that was a little strange as well. Eric was more worried about getting in trouble then getting even. So he tried to negotiate for a free punch with no repercussions. Not may guys will just let someone have a free shot.

Hell I'm a girl and no one gets a free hit.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

The thing about Kristi's boyfriend is Eric tried to tell her that everything could be made right if he just let him punch him back & he didn't tell on him. What a weird proposition. Most guys find respectability in a "fair fight". Eric didn't care about that, apparently.

Do I have the story correct? Didn't they have notes back and forth about this?

I always thought that was a little strange as well. Eric was more worried about getting in trouble then getting even. So he tried to negotiate for a free punch with no repercussions. Not may guys will just let someone have a free shot.

Hell I'm a girl and no one gets a free hit.

I think Eric really wanted to try to be good and tow the line most of the time.

Was he on probation still, or was it before the van?


Kristi was Nate's prom date, right?

I assume she was his prom date. I think at that point they had been dating for at least a couple months. At least in the 11k, Nate says he had spent almost all his time with her the 2 months leading up to the shooting.