E/D Violence before 4/20

We discussed this a little in another thread but I have been thinking about the lack of fights Eric and Dylan seemed to be in before NBK. Dan Lab punched Eric in the face but as far as I know Dylan didn't get into a psychical fights nor did anyone try to fight him. There were the instances where he shoved Tara in gym class and called her a bitch, but when her boyfriend intervened he backed off. Then he got into an argument with a guy and he just yelled, in the 11k, he said Dylan "went crazy"  I don't think there was any altercation other than that.



Do you think there was more that wasn't reported, did anyone try to punch or hit E and D? I'm also wondering if because of Eric's anger issues and Dylan's repressed anger if they were afraid to start punching someone because they may hurt someone, hence setting off red flags for NBK.

Or were they afraid because they wouldn't very good at fighting?  

Like Eric said "having to be a literal angel until March 1999"

Screamingophelia wrote:

I'm also wondering if because of Eric's anger issues and Dylan's repressed anger if they were afraid to start punching someone because they may hurt someone, hence setting off red flags for NBK.

Or were they afraid because they wouldn't very good at fighting?  

Might have been a bit of both. They didn't want to get their asses kicked, and they didn't want to tip anyone off that something was deeply wrong in their lives.

I agree 100% with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. A combination.

A lot of their anger was towards younger students; imagine them picking a fight with a freshman and losing.

Littlelo wrote:

I agree 100% with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. A combination.

A lot of their anger was towards younger students; imagine them picking a fight with a freshman and losing.

That would be embarrassing...

Didn't they try to confront freshman but they didn't show up?

I can't find the 11k part where the guy talks about almost getting into it with Dylan.

I think I remember vaguely something about that, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Didn't they also mention getting shit from a younger student in the Eric in Columbine video? Something like "oh he's a senior so it's ok.....no actually he was a freshman"

Littlelo wrote:

I think I remember vaguely something about that, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Didn't they also mention getting shit from a younger student in the Eric in Columbine video? Something like "oh he's a senior so it's ok.....no actually he was a freshman"

I think so!

If the ketchup tampons, fecal matter and bottles thrown them didn't incite an ass whooping what would?

Dylan unleashed all the anger he'd been holding in

I think it is very likely that they didn't fight because they didn't want to get into trouble, but were mostly afraid to lose and then be seen as an even bigger target then before.

Especially Dylan, since he apparently wasn't as picked on as Eric. BUT if he had tried to fight back and lost then he would have also lost the "Damn he is tall as hell, maybe he can throw hands too" edge which supposedly kept him from getting shoved around as much.

Eric was short, skinny, and had no edge whatsoever. Even his hot headed temper wasn't enough to deter the bullies. They probably picked on him even more just to see him lose it knowing that he wouldn't/couldn't do anything.

Quote :

Didn't they try to confront freshman but they didn't show up?

I think this was mentioned in Sue's book.

Szabo wrote:

Quote :

Didn't they try to confront freshman but they didn't show up?

I think this was mentioned in Sue's book.

You are right. I think Sue talks about Tom being worried about Dylan pitting himself against younger, smaller kids. Or something along those lines.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I think it is very likely that they didn't fight because they didn't want to get into trouble, but were mostly afraid to lose and then be seen as an even bigger target then before.

Especially Dylan, since he apparently wasn't as picked on as Eric. BUT if he had tried to fight back and lost then he would have also lost the "Damn he is tall as hell, maybe he can throw hands too" edge which supposedly kept him from getting shoved around as much.

Eric was short, skinny, and had no edge whatsoever. Even his hot headed temper wasn't enough to deter the bullies. They probably picked on him even more just to see him lose it knowing that he wouldn't/couldn't do anything.

Eric did also rely on his taller friends to fight his battles too.

I think Tom was wondering why Dylan was letting Freshmen get to him.

I had a similar problem when I was a senior there were some nasty 14 year old girls who wanted to make everyones lives miserable but as upperclassmen it was embarrassing to say or do anything.

Dylan could be intimidating but I'm not sure how well he'd do fighting wise. I agree with your reasons as to why he wouldn't want to fight.

Other than Tara Zobjeck mentioning that Dylan harassed and pushed people in gym class and Michelle Hartsough saying that Dylan once hit her, I know there are at least a few stories in the 11k where people talked about Eric and Dylan possibly trying to instigate physical altercations.

Keith Parkison told the police that he and Dylan didn't get along because Dylan was always picking on him and that they had nearly gotten into a physical fight because of it. He said that he used to talk to Eric but that around January of 1999 Eric started picking on people and harassing them with other TCM members. (1070)

Evan McClaugherty said that about 4 months before 4/20, he accidentally bumped into Eric as he rounded a corner in the hall. Eric got angry and they started pushing each other. After the confrontation, Eric told him that he "should watch his back." (2038)

Someone reported a second-hand story (and I'm not sure that there's any followup because the kid changed schools before 4/20) that someone named Brett Sullivan had bumped into Dylan and they got into a pushing contest. It doesn't sound like it escalated any further than that. It doesn't say when it happened but the student transferred schools months before 4/20. (2522)

Also, Chris Morris told investigators that in the weeks before 4/20, Eric seemed to be getting more aggressive and picking fights with people. It made Chris angry because it seemed to him that Eric kept expecting Chris to bail him out of the fights. (10838)

The only time that I see a reference to an actual fight is a third-hand story involving Dylan, but the second-hand story supposedly came from a friend of Nate Dykeman.

Chris Walker said that his friend Clinton Moore was good friends with Nate and that Nate told him of a time when Dylan was "very scary." There had been a fight and Dylan was going "crazy." (2236)

sscc wrote:

Other than Tara Zobjeck mentioning that Dylan harassed and pushed people in gym class and Michelle Hartsough saying that Dylan once hit her, I know there are at least a few stories in the 11k where people talked about Eric and Dylan possibly trying to instigate physical altercations.

Keith Parkison told the police that he and Dylan didn't get along because Dylan was always picking on him and that they had nearly gotten into a physical fight because of it. He said that he used to talk to Eric but that around January of 1999 Eric started picking on people and harassing them with other TCM members. (1070)

Evan McClaugherty said that about 4 months before 4/20, he accidentally bumped into Eric as he rounded a corner in the hall. Eric got angry and they started pushing each other. After the confrontation, Eric told him that he "should watch his back." (2038)

Someone reported a second-hand story (and I'm not sure that there's any followup because the kid changed schools before 4/20) that someone named Brett Sullivan had bumped into Dylan and they got into a pushing contest. It doesn't sound like it escalated any further than that. It doesn't say when it happened but the student transferred schools months before 4/20. (2522)

Also, Chris Morris told investigators that in the weeks before 4/20, Eric seemed to be getting more aggressive and picking fights with people. It made Chris angry because it seemed to him that Eric kept expecting Chris to bail him out of the fights. (10838)

The only time that I see a reference to an actual fight is a third-hand story involving Dylan, but the second-hand story supposedly came from a friend of Nate Dykeman.

Chris Walker said that his friend Clinton Moore was good friends with Nate and that Nate told him of a time when Dylan was "very scary." There had been a fight and Dylan was going "crazy." (2236)

Thank you SSCC and the Chris Walker story was the one I was thinking about.

I take the Michelle story with a grain of salt. Not trying to be a Dylan apologist but NO one else form Blackjack mentioned that, also you'd get fired, granted it was a lax environment but Dylan left and even got hired back. So when did this slapping incident take place?

Screamingophelia wrote:

Thank you SSCC and the Chris Walker story was the one I was thinking about.

I take the Michelle story with a grain of salt. Not trying to be a Dylan apologist but NO one else form Blackjack mentioned that, also you'd get fired, granted it was a lax environment but Dylan left and even got hired back. So when did this slapping incident take place?

I agree that if he had really slapped or hit her that she would've demanded that he be fired, especially since she didn't seem to like him very much, calling him "difficult," "rude" and "a scary person." She doesn't mention when it happened but she also doesn't exactly say that he slapped her in the interview. She said that he "hit her once because she had counseled him on an infraction at work."

I can definitely envision her taking him aside to chastise him and Dylan sort of pushing past her because he didn't want to hear it. He seemed to push people around when he was annoyed so it wouldn't be too out of character and it would explain why she didn't make a big deal of it and why no one else remembered it. If it happened somewhere semi-private, that could also explain why no one else saw it. Then again, she didn't mention it at all when she was questioned a second time but that interview was focused on the fact that she had shown them how to remove the powder from fireworks so maybe they just weren't interested in hearing any more about it because the explosives questions were more important. It's hard to say what happened. She clearly liked Eric and not Dylan but I can't imagine her completely fabricating something like that. It's probably an exaggeration, somewhere between completely true and completely false, in my opinion.

sscc wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Thank you SSCC and the Chris Walker story was the one I was thinking about.

I take the Michelle story with a grain of salt. Not trying to be a Dylan apologist but NO one else form Blackjack mentioned that, also you'd get fired, granted it was a lax environment but Dylan left and even got hired back. So when did this slapping incident take place?

I agree that if he had really slapped or hit her that she would've demanded that he be fired, especially since she didn't seem to like him very much, calling him "difficult," "rude" and "a scary person." She doesn't mention when it happened but she also doesn't exactly say that he slapped her in the interview. She said that he "hit her once because she had counseled him on an infraction at work."

I can definitely envision her taking him aside to chastise him and Dylan sort of pushing past her because he didn't want to hear it. He seemed to push people around when he was annoyed so it wouldn't be too out of character and it would explain why she didn't make a big deal of it and why no one else remembered it. If it happened somewhere semi-private, that could also explain why no one else saw it. Then again, she didn't mention it at all when she was questioned a second time but that interview was focused on the fact that she had shown them how to remove the powder from fireworks so maybe they just weren't interested in hearing any more about it because the explosives questions were more important. It's hard to say what happened. She clearly liked Eric and not Dylan but I can't imagine her completely fabricating something like that. It's probably an exaggeration, somewhere between completely true and completely false, in my opinion.

I can see that too, maybe he brushed her off. He didn't like to be told he was wrong and I get the feeling that if Dylan deemed you less intelligent then him, he could not care less what you had to say. For him, he wanted a pretty high end computer job at age 16 and it was frustrating that he could not get one at such a young age.

Plus Dylan bristled at any slight, so they probably didn't have good work chemistry to begin with. If he was that bad, why would he get hired back?

I wonder who has the most extreme differences in perception between the two? I always think Dylan. On one hand some people call him "goofy, funny, gentle and shy" and others say he was "scary, rough, rude, disrespectful" but in class and at work Eric is pretty much always known to be a pretty smart and hard working kid. He knows how to tow the line and act. He fails with personal relationships but in work and in class, Eric knows what he is doing. Dylan is all over the place.

I get that, because it's something else Dylan and I had in common... we were raised VERY similarly and I wonder what kind of work ethic Dylan was taught to have, since he was raised as being the sunshine boy and a gifted kid. You read his essay on the ethics class for diversion.Our families were very similar so I get where he was coming from. I have changed and matured which I am sure he would have.. or hope he would have, but yea, I get Dylan WAY too much for my liking sometimes. Sue and my mom would have gotten along very well and Dylan and I would have been the angry kids getting drunk together but still sitting down for family dinners and finishing our assignments early...

Dylan hit his manager once and I'm surprised he never lost his job over it actually.

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

Dylan hit his manager once and I'm surprised he never lost his job over it actually.

We were just talking about that I think that was very much exaggerated

What did Dylan do that he was fired from Blackjack for? He was eventually re-hired I think.

Littlelo wrote:

What did Dylan do that he was fired from Blackjack for? He was eventually re-hired I think.

I think he quit, according to A Mothers Reckoning he got hired at Computer Renaissance to do tech support but he was getting burned out from his classes and the schedule so he quit the computer job and was rehired at Blackjack.

I want to know what the hell happened on 4th of july since some witness said he saw them with a weapon in a store arguing with someone? and also because of (if I'm not mistaken) a comment in their yearbook about both 4ths of july being awesome or something.

Munchkin, I think they had "awesome" 4th of July's simply because they loved explosives and fireworks and probably set off a bunch of stuff. I don't know much about that weapon part though.

This is what I am talking about:

"July 4, 1998 Columbine student Peter Maher his friends had a negative encounter with Eric, Dylan and a few others at a convenience store. Peter said that he saw one of the boys in a trench coat with a "big pistol-grip shotgun in the air". The two groups ran across each other later the same day at a fireworks stand where another altercation began. One of the "trench coat boys" pulled a knife while another mentioned they had a shotgun, though Peter didn't see the gun at that time. He said he and his friends were able to talk the situation down and got away from the group"

munchkinphone wrote:

This is what I am talking about:

"July 4, 1998 Columbine student Peter Maher his friends had a negative encounter with Eric, Dylan and a few others at a convenience store. Peter said that he saw one of the boys in a trench coat with a "big pistol-grip shotgun in the air". The two groups ran across each other later the same day at a fireworks stand where another altercation began. One of the "trench coat boys" pulled a knife while another mentioned they had a shotgun, though Peter didn't see the gun at that time. He said he and his friends were able to talk the situation down and got away from the group"

I have been looking for that! I remember reading it but then I never saw it again.

I think that would have been very stupid of them since they were still in diversion.

I wonder why the police weren't called... I kind of chalk it up to being like the Halloween story, either made up or exaggerated.

Plus we only have that one account. Considering many TCM members said E&D were not involved in really any of their activities, it's possible people just assume they were in the group at the time of the altercation. Are there any others who back up that story? I'm always skeptical of accounts like that.

Screamingophelia wrote:

munchkinphone wrote:

This is what I am talking about:

"July 4, 1998 Columbine student Peter Maher his friends had a negative encounter with Eric, Dylan and a few others at a convenience store. Peter said that he saw one of the boys in a trench coat with a "big pistol-grip shotgun in the air". The two groups ran across each other later the same day at a fireworks stand where another altercation began. One of the "trench coat boys" pulled a knife while another mentioned they had a shotgun, though Peter didn't see the gun at that time. He said he and his friends were able to talk the situation down and got away from the group"

I have been looking for that! I remember reading it but then I never saw it again.

I think that would have been very stupid of them since they were still in diversion.

I wonder why the police weren't called... I kind of chalk it up to being like the Halloween story, either made up or exaggerated.

I agree. I just can't think they would have taken the chance to be running around waving a shotgun and threatening people.

Chris was probably the one to pull the knife since he was known to have golden butterfly, and yes it would be very stupid of them to be seen with guns.. I can imagine Eric letting it slip that he owns one though

Littlelo wrote:

Plus we only have that one account. Considering many TCM members said E&D were not involved in really any of their activities, it's possible people just assume they were in the group at the time of the altercation. Are there any others who back up that story? I'm always skeptical of accounts like that.

I've never heard of any other account. I have to agree with you.

munchkinphone wrote:

Chris was probably the one to pull the knife since he was known to have golden butterfly, and yes it would be very stupid of them to be seen with guns.. I can imagine Eric letting it slip that he owns one though

lol I'm impressed he kept NBK secret. I'm sure he tried to subtly hint to see how far he could push it.

Maybe the shotgun they "saw" was the potatogun from hitmen for hire and they were using it to launch fireworks. That does sound pretty awesome imo

Totally worth a comment in the yearbook

munchkinphone wrote:

Maybe the shotgun they "saw" was the potatogun from hitmen for hire and they were using it to launch fireworks. That does sound pretty awesome imo

Totally worth a comment in the yearbook

It would be kind of hard to mistake a shotgun for a tater launcher. Unless they were just complete morons.

Well, I had the feeling they saw it from a distance because I feel there would be more detailed descriptions otherwise.

I found this article which is a little more detailed, telling it was at 7-eleven and someone tossed a donut at someone and someone yelled in german. Haha lol, I cant help laughing.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

munchkinphone wrote:

Well, I had the feeling they saw it from a distance because I feel there would be more detailed descriptions otherwise.

I found this article which is a little more detailed, telling it was at 7-eleven and someone tossed a donut at someone and someone yelled in german. Haha lol, I cant help laughing.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Lol yeah, this is a pretty crazy story.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Plus we only have that one account. Considering many TCM members said E&D were not involved in really any of their activities, it's possible people just assume they were in the group at the time of the altercation. Are there any others who back up that story? I'm always skeptical of accounts like that.

I've never heard of any other account. I have to agree with you.

There is actually is one more account. Jason Kirk said that he had a run-in with Eric at a 7-11 in Platte Canyon on July 4, 1998. He threw a donut at him as he drove by in a car and Eric waved a shotgun at him and the incident was reported to the police. (5014)

Two problems with the account, I think.

He only thought it was Eric because he was a member of the TCM and more importantly, Eric and Dylan didn't have any guns at that time. I guess that it could have been Eric and it was one of their fake guns or BB guns.

Edit: Just saw an article added. Sounds like it happened but I wonder if these boys named "Eric Harris" as the aggressor before 4/20. I feel like Eric would have been arrested if he was reported to the police yet again, especially while on diversion.

He doesn't even say why he threw the donut... as if it doesn't need an explaination. What an ass

munchkinphone wrote:

He doesn't even say why he threw the donut... as if it doesn't need an explaination. What an ass

What do these kids have against carbs? The stories where people are like "I was mean to them" still make you look like an ass even after what E&D did.

You'd imagine too any complaint about Eric in the summer of 1998 would raise red flags and the Littleton rumor mill would pick up on it... and our favorite nosy nelly Judy Brown would raise some fresh hell...

IMO any post-4/20 accounts made by teenagers are less believable because they all wanted their own E&D story or connection with them. Just look at how many incorrect accounts there are from the shooting. People saying they walked into school with Eric, talked to him in the smokers pit that morning, saw E&D in places they couldn't have been, etc.

Littlelo wrote:

IMO any post-4/20 accounts made by teenagers are less believable because they all wanted their own E&D story or connection with them. Just look at how many incorrect accounts there are from the shooting. People saying they walked into school with Eric, talked to him in the smokers pit that morning, saw E&D in places they couldn't have been, etc.

Agreed. Everyone wanted to be involved in some way.

munchkinphone wrote:

He doesn't even say why he threw the donut... as if it doesn't need an explaination. What an ass

This excerpt from A Mother's Reckoning based on Larkin's research gives a bit of an explanation.

Sue Klebold wrote:

Tom and I did not perceive Dylan as being unpopular; he simply had too many friends for us to see him that way. Unfortunately, we did not have the slightest idea what his daily life was really like at school. Larkin cites a video Dylan made. He and a few other boys are walking down a hallway, filming nothing in particular. Four students approach from the opposite direction. One of them, wearing a Columbine Football sweatshirt, drives an elbow into Dylan’s side as he passes, causing him to cry out and the video camera to swing wildly.

The athletes laugh, and Dylan’s friends mutter something inaudible. Larkin correctly sums up what’s so chilling, which is that Dylan and his friends continue down the hallway after the hit as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened. “Apparently such behavior was common enough to be accepted as normative,” Larkin writes. This observation was supported by a number of interviews he did with students.

It mirrors our own conversations, too. One of Dylan’s friends told me he’d never seen any examples of students mistreating other students—and then, in the very next breath, told me about kids hurling a soda can full of tobacco spit in his direction at a school sporting event. Another of Dylan’s friends told us a car full of kids threw glass bottles and other trash at their group as they drove by. (Larkin reports that throwing trash from moving cars at lower-caste students was common.)

A resigned Dylan tried to comfort a horrified newcomer to the group: “You get used to it. It happens all the time.”

She's referencing the Eric in Columbine video right? Dylan was not filming that. It's strange that she doesn't know that...

Littlelo wrote:

She's referencing the Eric in Columbine video right? Dylan was not filming that. It's strange that she doesn't know that...

Yep. I think Brooks says that it's Dylan in an interview for a documentary so maybe she went by that. It is strange considering that Dylan briefly appears at the end of the video but she may not have watched the entire thing. Doesn't the cameraman talk though? I'd think she'd realize that it wasn't Dylan's voice.

Littlelo wrote:

She's referencing the Eric in Columbine video right? Dylan was not filming that. It's strange that she doesn't know that...

She is, this has always confused me, because if she saw it she'd see that 1. Eric H points at the cameraman and calls him "an Eric too" AND 2. Dylan is on camera at the end...

Unless it is a video we've never seen... I doubt it though.