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 Wich one: E or D?

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tragedy79



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PostSubject: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:03 pm

After seeing a lot of discussion about who was more grazy, evil, interesting or whatever and who was more to blame, I was wondering about you guys. Who is more interesting to study in your opionion: Eric or Dylan?

I know: maybe this qustion is a little bit childish, but I really am curious about your answers.

Let me start: I think Dylan is the more interesting one. I think he is a real puzzle. Eric seems to be less complicated, but that's just me.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:20 pm

Dylan - he is a mystery for me. One time i thought to write a book about him. To express he was not a monster. Maybe it is because Dylan was depressive and I am depressive since a long time.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:54 pm

For me, I wanted to know everything about Dylan.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:30 pm

I'm the opposite and find Eric much more interesting and intriguing. I can't exactly explain why and without sounding like a fan girl there's just something about him. Plus I feel like I relate to him more.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:50 pm

@Jenn wrote:
For me, I wanted to know everything about Dylan.

^^ Unquestionably. Oh, the infinite complexities.. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:51 am

Eric, there's just too much I recognize in his thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:19 am

I'm Team Eric.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:09 pm

Dylan, I just intuitively 'get' most of the time.. I see a lot of myself in him. (Maybe a little too much, at times. It's been quite confrontational.) I click with Dylan and his writings more, although I do find him quite complex at the same time. He was more interesting to me when I first started on the case. I 'got' his side of the story right away and understood the motivations and drives and ideas behind him for the most part. I was this kid all throughout high school, as evidenced also by some of my own journal entries from that time, so Dylan's never been a great mystery.

Right now, though, it's Eric. It took me a long time (read: all damn year) to truly click with him. (His sense of humour was the only thing I clicked with straight away, so that maybe gives you some indication as to how hard it's been for me to form an opinion about him.) I find him infinitely more complicated than Dylan somehow, which makes him the more interesting conundrum for me. Even now, I have a hard time putting my thoughts/feelings on Eric together coherently. I currently think it's part 'mama bear' raging on Dave Cullen for being such an idiot about the kid and part mirror for me about a part of myself I have suppressed for a very long time. The journey with Dylan was very much "look how far I've come since then", but the journey with Eric is all "look at all the work left to do". (I seem to have gotten it into my head that once I figure Eric out I figure a part of myself out. It's a bit of a tiring process.)
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:19 pm

thedragonrampant wrote:
The journey with Dylan was very much "look how far I've come since then", but the journey with Eric is all "look at all the work left to do"
That's a great 'nutshell' way to sum up both of their journals!
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:36 pm

For me Dylan is much more complex than Eric is just due to the fact that he hid it all so well. Eric was a loud mouth by all accounts, who in writing said he could take on the world. Underneath he was just a scared, insecure 17/18 y/o who wanted his life to make an impact.

Dylan, I just cannot figure out. Yes he was depressed but you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to come to that conclusion. He also hid the plan really well, nobody noticed a change in his behavior as they did with Eric. Eric distanced himself from his parents and other friends, Dylan still spent a lot of time with his father working on cars and going to Arizona to pick out a dorm room. His cards never show and for the life of me I cannot justify or figure out how under the circumstances they were in, how he kept his cool. His father noticed a slight sharpness to his voice one day but that's it. He went to prom just a few days before, he danced with friends, he told Nate Dykeman how they had to meet up in the future. This isn't the talk of a dude intent on bombing his school and shooting fleeing survivors.

Don't hear me wrong, I don't think he had any doubts about going a head, I just think that he is a lot better liar than he is given credit (?) on being. People say Eric was the great liar who fooled everyone and roped poor, innocent, depressed Dylan into his plans. Now that may be right, nobody knows how the plan was formulated (oh to be a fly on the wall of that conversation) but I just don't buy the leader/follower dynamic that's attached to the events of the day and the planning before hand.

Dylan, in my personal opinion, was a lot more dangerous than is written about. His actions on April 20th speak volumes, he was laughing and hollering up a storm. It was fun for him, his last "fuck you all" before he died. Eric was on a mission, not that it wasn't fun for him but he was out to do a job, not mess around. I showed my mother that picture of them in the commons and the first thing she said was "that guy in white looks like a solider, look how he's standing, he's all about business" and I can't help but think that she's right. Eric was the one who couldn't back down because he was full of pride and once he had his "goal" in life, he couldn't walk away.

I don't know, I'm starting to ramble now but I hope that I got my point across.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:10 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Dylan, in my personal opinion, was a lot more dangerous than is written about.
I think Dylan was a lot more dangerous than most people realize too. If you believe Cullen's account of things, then Dylan was just sitting around feeling sorry for himself until Eric said, "Hey, I'm a psychopath and I want to kill people, want to come with me?" and Dylan said, "Got nothing better to do."

Seriously folks, what kind of good kid says "Yes" to a rampage?

Dylan knew he was going to blow up the school and kill everyone and he didn't give a hoot. His homicidal plans didn't upset his life at all. He just went on as usual. To Dylan, his mass murder plans weren't even enough of a big deal to bother writing about them.

So, who's really the psychopath? Eric, who killed people because he hated them. Or Dylan, who killed people because "Sure, why the hell not?"

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:06 pm

@areyoulistening wrote:
For me Dylan is much more complex than Eric is just due to the fact that he hid it all so well. Eric was a loud mouth by all accounts, who in writing said he could take on the world. Underneath he was just a scared, insecure 17/18 y/o who wanted his life to make an impact.

Dylan, I just cannot figure out. Yes he was depressed but you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to come to that conclusion. He also hid the plan really well, nobody noticed a change in his behavior as they did with Eric. Eric distanced himself from his parents and other friends, Dylan still spent a lot of time with his father working on cars and going to Arizona to pick out a dorm room. His cards never show and for the life of me I cannot justify or figure out how under the circumstances they were in, how he kept his cool. His father noticed a slight sharpness to his voice one day but that's it. He went to prom just a few days before, he danced with friends, he told Nate Dykeman how they had to meet up in the future. This isn't the talk of a dude intent on bombing his school and shooting fleeing survivors.

Don't hear me wrong, I don't think he had any doubts about going a head, I just think that he is a lot better liar than he is given credit (?) on being. People say Eric was the great liar who fooled everyone and roped poor, innocent, depressed Dylan into his plans. Now that may be right, nobody knows how the plan was formulated (oh to be a fly on the wall of that conversation) but I just don't buy the leader/follower dynamic that's attached to the events of the day and the planning before hand.
See, I don't know if it's really out-and-out lying per say. I think Dylan is all about compartmentalization.   I don't think he even crystalized NBK as a real, founded reality in his mind until the actual day of, when he found himself to be in charge and ready to leave in every literal sense of the word.   Up until 4/20, he was still living his life as if it would continue on the damned, stagnet, 'Lost Highway' going straight on ahead, endless, and pointless.  Meanwhile, NBK was a glimmer, a  pseudo fantasy, in the back of his brain.  A much more compelling fantasy because he had a very vested, proactive friend to share his secret with.   Even in January, he was still mulling it over - whether to make it a reality by joining forces with Eric.  So, to me at least, it's no surprise that Dylan continued to live life in a public sort of way as if there was an earthly, routine journey to it.  I think he distracted himself with the mundane minutia - "I'm picking out my dorm at college" proccupations - while NBK stewed quietly in the backdrop.  It could have gone either way at the last minute. I think he left it all up to fate.  Sort of a: 'I'll just keep on with my present course, and see if fate intercedes..or not.'

@areyoulistening wrote:
Dylan, in my personal opinion, was a lot more dangerous than is written about. His actions on April 20th speak volumes, he was laughing and hollering up a storm. It was fun for him, his last "fuck you all" before he died. Eric was on a mission, not that it wasn't fun for him but he was out to do a job, not mess around. I showed my mother that picture of them in the commons and the first thing she said was "that guy in white looks like a solider, look how he's standing, he's all about business" and I can't help but think that she's right. Eric was the one who couldn't back down because he was full of pride and once he had his "goal" in life, he couldn't walk away.
I agree that Dylan was dangerous on 4/20.  The cat was out of the bag, he unleashed himself completely and all that he had supressed over the course of his life, was let go off.  He was raw and rampant.  But I think D & E were both equally dangerous in their own ways: Eric in his cold bloodness and Dylan in his wildman state.  I also think Eric would have been up for more kills if he hadn't broken his nose.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:42 pm

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
Seriously folks, what kind of good kid says "Yes" to a rampage?
Nowadays, a lot more then you'd think. ;) And it's usually the good ones that need to be worried about since they are the ones that guard their true or negative feelings from the public.

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
Dylan knew he was going to blow up the school and kill everyone and he didn't give a hoot. His homicidal plans didn't upset his life at all. He just went on as usual. To Dylan, his mass murder plans weren't even enough of a big deal to bother writing about them.
Unlike Eric, I don't think Dylan's mass murdering plans were a defining point for him.  If it was of primary importance, you're right, it would definitely be more evident in his journal as it is in Eric's.  Dylan was very  depressed and therefore, apathetic about a whole hell of a lot.  Essentially, from the gamut of life in general from school work, future plans to killing peers -and/or- himself.  Dylan mentions in his journal how he feels he is beginning to care less and less about things with each passing day.  Nothing can stop me now, cuz I don't care anymore.  So, the apathy is the key as to why he doesn't give a shit about his destructive choice.  If you don't care about yourself is it easier to care even less about others over a period of time?  Certainly.  The homicidal plans was the alternative option to straight suicide -  where he could partner with Eric (better to go at it with someone than alone), take revenge and then end it all, the later, being Dylan's primary point.   I saved a quote that I came across once and liked a lot because it pretty much sums it up (for me, anyway.)   "I’d say they were both in it for different reasons and the plan just worked for both of them for their differences and similarities. It’s like people who drink coffee to enjoy it (Eric) and people who drink it to get the job done of getting caffeine (Dylan).”

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
So, who's really the psychopath? Eric, who killed people because he hated them. Or Dylan, who killed people because "Sure, why the hell not?"
I don't really think either are.  Psychopath is just bandied about far too freely these days (no thanks to Cullen.)  I don't think it's fair to displace that burdensome title off of Eric only to thrust it entirely upon Dylan. That's not the answer either.  I think the two are far more complicated and complex than pigeonholing them as psychos. This is why it's so damn interesting!  The are, but they aren't.  They said it best.  What they did should define them as such, but in the end, they aren't..weren't.  They made a choice for personal reasons, and conditioned themselves for battle.


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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:00 pm

Dylan, definitely.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:59 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
I think he left it all up to fate.
In high school, I had a male friend. His dad was a member of a sports shooting club. Every time one of those school shootings would hit the news in the 90s, he'd say something like, "You know how hard it is for other people to get guns. Well, I've got guns and ammo sitting right here in my house. Maybe fate is telling me that I should go shoot up our school?" Being immature and angry, I would always say, "Yep. It's definitely a sign. You should totally go for it." The human relationship with fate is fascinating.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Seriously folks, what kind of good kid says "Yes" to a rampage?
Nowadays, a lot more then you'd think. ;) And it's usually the good ones that need to be worried about since they are the ones that guard their true or negative feelings from the public.
LOL. I've got a feeling this next decade is going to be a really violent decade too... just a hunch.

Quote :
Unlike Eric, I don't think Dylan's mass murdering plans were a defining point for him.  If it was of primary importance, you're right, it would definitely be more evident in his journal as it is in Eric's.  Dylan was very  depressed and therefore, apathetic about a whole hell of a lot.  Essentially, from the gamut of life in general from school work, future plans to killing peers -and/or- himself.  Dylan mentions in his journal how he feels he is beginning to care less and less about things with each passing day.  Nothing can stop me now, cuz I don't care anymore.  So, the apathy is the key as to why he doesn't give a shit about his destructive choice.  If you don't care about yourself is it easier to care even less about others over a period of time?  Certainly.  The homicidal plans was the alternative option to straight suicide -  where he could partner with Eric (better to go at it with someone than alone), take revenge and then end it all, the later, being Dylan's primary point.
I have a question. What do you think would have happened if Dylan's depression had been cured? Do you think he would have gone on to live a positive life? Or do you think that, unrestrained from his apathy, he would have become a more active partner in NBK?

Quote :
I saved a quote that I came across once and liked a lot because it pretty much sums it up (for me, anyway.)   "I’d say they were both in it for different reasons and the plan just worked for both of them for their differences and similarities. It’s like people who drink coffee to enjoy it (Eric) and people who drink it to get the job done of getting caffeine (Dylan).”
That's a good quote. Eric loved violence, and for Dylan, violence was just a means to an end.

But, it's still somewhat frightening to think that a person (Dylan) signed-up for NBK because it was a way to die, and then, on the actual day, discovered that, "Hey, this is a lot of fun! I'm really loving this! Didn't know it was going to be this good!"

Quote :
Psychopath is just bandied about far too freely these days (no thanks to Cullen.)  I don't think it's fair to displace that burdensome title off of Eric only to thrust it entirely upon Dylan. That's not the answer either.  I think the two are far more complicated and complex than pigeonholing them as psychos.
I don't think E or D were psychopaths either. I was just trying to show how absurd it is that Eric gets the psycho label, when what Dylan did was just as bad.

Quote :
This is why it's so damn interesting!  The are, but they aren't.  They said it best.  What they did should define them as such, but in the end, they aren't..weren't.  They made a choice for personal reasons, and conditions themselves for battle.
Can you commit a massacre and still be perfectly normal? I believe you can be.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:17 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


But, it's still somewhat frightening to think that a person (Dylan) signed-up for NBK because it was a way to die, and then, on the actual day, discovered that, "Hey, this is a lot of fun! I'm really loving this! Didn't know it was going to be this good!"
I don't know if you were being serious, but I think Dylan knew waaay ahead of time how fun it would be. Just look at his last journal entries. The kid was talking about wanting to kill since '97
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:40 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


But, it's still somewhat frightening to think that a person (Dylan) signed-up for NBK because it was a way to die, and then, on the actual day, discovered that, "Hey, this is a lot of fun! I'm really loving this! Didn't know it was going to be this good!"
I don't know if you were being serious, but I think Dylan knew waaay ahead of time how fun it would be. Just look at his last journal entries. The kid was talking about wanting to kill since '97
According to Cullen, Dylan went along with Eric because he was depressed and thought NBK was as good a way to die as any -not because he thought killing people would be fun.

But if Cullen was correct, then it means that Dylan showed up on April 20 wanting to die, but discovered, to his surprise, that he quite enjoyed mass murder. How psycho is that?

Cullen never fully explores the consequences of his conclusions. Cullen's version of Dylan is more psycho than his version of Eric.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:49 pm

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
I think he left it all up to fate.
In high school, I had a male friend. His dad was a member of a sports shooting club. Every time one of those school shootings would hit the news in the 90s, he'd say something like, "You know how hard it is for other people to get guns. Well, I've got guns and ammo sitting right here in my house. Maybe fate is telling me that I should go shoot up our school?" Being immature and angry, I would always say, "Yep. It's definitely a sign. You should totally go for it." The human relationship with fate is fascinating.
Fate is definitely relative to the eye of the beholder.   Humans have a way of filling in the blanks with everything to find rhyme, reason and order in their universe - most especially when their own life feels powerless and pointless!    It's the ultimate justification as you can't argue or rationalize it since it's divine intervention.   But again, it's a way of harnessing control by saying something bigger than me is at play here, guiding this.  Dylan probably felt relieved relying on it since he could give up with the struggle and indecisiveness.

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

LOL. I've got a feeling this next decade is going to be a really violent decade too... just a hunch.
Especially the more isolated and 'autistic' teens are becoming with their devices stuck in front of their faces all day long.  Not the best way to bond or learn social skills during that developmental stage of their lives.  It'll be even easier since they mostly view people as faceless strangers, anyway.

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
I have a question. What do you think would have happened if Dylan's depression had been cured? Do you think he would have gone on to live a positive life? Or do you think that, unrestrained from his apathy, he would have become a more active partner in NBK?
Well, but I do think that Dylan was a pretty darn active partner in NBK - if not the cohesive planner the days prior, he certainly fulfilled his obligations the day of. My feeling is that Dylan's depression was a catalyst.  His state of mind allowed him to wallow in a place where he felt his life was worthless and eventually, others' lives were, therefore, meaningless too.   It would be too simplistic to speculate that he'd just be 'cured' and lead a positive life because that's too 'Happily Ever After' for me. ha!   Dylan was pretty shy, which is another factor. He was reserved about expressing his feelings and this is in part why he would bottled it all up and the feelings would begin to ooze out in the privacy of his bedroom like demons.  If he was able to express his feelings and get them out (I don't just mean confiding in his depression with another depressed person like Zach which is like the blind leading the blind), he might not have been so overwhelmed and isolating with the sadness.  If he expressed and dealt with his negative emotions instead of believing he was self reliant island on to himself, he wouldn't have needed to save them up for revenge on 4/20.   Not being constantly dragged down in the doldrums, he would've been able to focus more, self motivate and no doubt would've gotten much better 'advanced' grades in school.  As it was, he was only half trying in school but still.. landed himself in a decent college.  Amazing how he squeaked by.  He could have gone on to have a very productive and lucrative future career the likes of Zach Heckler.    If he wasn't depressed, he wouldn't have focused on destructive feelings and Eric might have been just. another. friend  instead of one that he shared a secret, deadly bond with.

@StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
But, it's still somewhat frightening to think that a person (Dylan) signed-up for NBK because it was a way to die, and then, on the actual day, discovered that, "Hey, this is a lot of fun! I'm really loving this! Didn't know it was going to be this good!"
Honestly, I'm not sure why this is such a stumbling block for people to process.   I guess if you'd lived with chronic shyness or AvP, it might make more innate sense.  The amount of over sensitivity, self restraint and self frustration that shy people learn to manage, juggle and conceal on a daily bases amongst others.  The proactive expression of strong and/or negative emotions is usually censored or comes out in spurts.  Dylan suppressed a lot of those feelings and withheld them or he went the passive-aggressive route and scrawled shit on people's lockers.  He concealed these facets of himself quite well for the most part.  All anyone ever summed up about Dylan was that he usually seemed quiet, very shy and seemed gentle 'wouldn't hurt a fly'.   Occasionally, they saw a bit of his damned up, scary, powerful well of anger when he let his guard down and let it spurt out over the edge like lava from a dormant volcano.    On 4/20, Dylan frees himself from his humanity, his human chains.. in every conceivable way.  He's freed himself literally, from the "Framework of Society" and it's societal rules.  There is no holding back on anything.  He's now made the choice to go through with NBK, and he'd already begun the mental transition on paper: pre visualizing with his "Man in Black" book report or the cavalier reminder to himself - (above all, after you've done A. B and C on your list, be sure to..) 'Have Fun!" on that To Do list.  And now, Here. It. Is. - they are actually in the midst of doing It. Dyan  probably can't even quite process it, can't quiet believe it, even while in the midst of killing - so he handles it by expressing himself loud and vocally, whooping it up. Not giving two fucks is SO much fun! -  YEEEEAAAH!!!!!   Dylan externalizes the years of feeling powerless while on this thrill ride roller coaster and his form of expression becomes loud exclamations, orgasms ;)  of exhilaration and powerfulness.  So, Dylan transitioned/transformed into a loud and boisterous killer and by comparison, Eric, who spent years expressing his anger, now seems a..reserved killer by comparison.  The way I see it, Dylan, The Wild Man, was amped on adrenal, he was going full on into NBK and  giving it 100% for his partner in crime -  his last big HURRAH! before the icing on the cake..The End.    Why would he censor himself at this point? He'd done that his entire life!   Anyway, that's how I see it. The Dylan on 4/20 just doesn't confound me.  If you're going into battle and you know you're going to die, and more to the point, you're more than happy with that outcome, you might be having your Last Party, no?  "What fun is/was life without a little death?" Didn't someone in the 11K say one of them shouted "Today is the day I die!"  

Quote :

Can you commit a massacre and still be perfectly normal? I believe you can be.
It's just that it's more disturbing for society to swallow.  Cullen slapped on the psychopath label as a 'quick fix' solution and most sheeple just went for it.  

And while I'm at it, let me add that I don't buy into the prevalent displacement game either simply to absolve Eric of the "psychopath" title that Cullen bestowed him.  For example, all the rampant:  "Oh, noooo...Eric's clearly not the psycho - He is -->  it's Dylan!  Everybody, check out the latest news: it's ALLL Dylan's fault, ALLL Dylan's idea, he's the nut!"  Um, no.  I think it's more complicated than labeling one more psycho than the other -- or even using the word at all, for that matter.  It doesn't really solve anything nor absolve either of them  because at the end of the day, while both boys may not have planned exactly the same way, both did pull off the deed together.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:51 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
I think he left it all up to fate.
In high school, I had a male friend. His dad was a member of a sports shooting club. Every time one of those school shootings would hit the news in the 90s, he'd say something like, "You know how hard it is for other people to get guns. Well, I've got guns and ammo sitting right here in my house. Maybe fate is telling me that I should go shoot up our school?" Being immature and angry, I would always say, "Yep. It's definitely a sign. You should totally go for it." The human relationship with fate is fascinating.
Fate is definitely relative to the eye of the beholder.   Humans have a way of filling in the blanks with everything to find rhyme, reason and order in their universe - most especially when their own life feels powerless and pointless!    It's the ultimate justification as you can't argue or rationalize it since it's divine intervention.   But again, it's a way of harnessing control by saying something bigger than me is at play here, guiding this.  Dylan probably felt relieved relying on it since he could give up with the struggle and indecisiveness.
I wonder if Dylan ever thought, like my friend above, "I have this opportunity to go on a killing spree. I may never get an opportunity like this again. It's a sign."

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Quote :

LOL. I've got a feeling this next decade is going to be a really violent decade too... just a hunch.
Especially the more isolated and 'autistic' teens are becoming with their devices stuck in front of their faces all day long.  Not the best way to bond or learn social skills during that developmental stage of their lives.  It'll be even easier since they mostly view people as faceless strangers, anyway.
I completely agree.

But it's not just teenagers. I think there's not much real human connection going on amongst adults either. And I think that's it's a tragedy. Imagine what we could achieve if we could all trust each other?

Everything, with both teens and adults, is extremely sexualized, as if there's no other intimacy but sex. I wonder if the teen girls who get on the internet and take their tops off really want sex, or if they want human connection, but they don't have the language to express their desires any other way?

Sex, like killing, gets results. It gets attention.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Quote :
But, it's still somewhat frightening to think that a person (Dylan) signed-up for NBK because it was a way to die, and then, on the actual day, discovered that, "Hey, this is a lot of fun! I'm really loving this! Didn't know it was going to be this good!"
Honestly, I'm not sure why this is such a stumbling block for people to process.   I guess if you'd lived with chronic shyness or AvP, it might make more innate sense.
You're right. I don't know a lot about being shy and avoidant. I'm more angry and antisocial. I don't avoid people because I'm shy, but because I hate them. But I can understand what you're saying when you explain how April 20 was a release of built-up emotion for Dylan. I think I would have behaved much the same way as him if I'd had the guts to be in his shoes. The idea of just letting loose against the world, without consequences, is a liberating thought.

Quote :
If you're going into battle and you know you're going to die, and more to the point, you're more than happy with that outcome, you might be having your Last Party, no?  "What fun is/was life without a little death?" Didn't someone in the 11K say one of them shouted "Today is the day I die!"
I've always thought of NBK as E/D's child. They gave birth to their plans and brought it into the world. But now I'm starting to think of NBK as E/D's God. They devoted their lives to it, and it rewarded them with a protection from any pain in the world. Death became the ultimate protecting force and E/D grew fond of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:37 am

Hard to say. Dylan is more cryptic and trying to read some of his stuf can at times be like solving a puzzle.

However, my impression is that most of teh time he doesn't really have all that much to say in his writings, or they are so cryptic and obscure that one cannot get anything out of it.

Perhaps Dylan would have been the moe interesting eprson to talk to face to face (don't know), but as far as writings go, Eric is more interesting, has more to say and has opinions about far more issues and topics.
Dylan is almost always busy writing just about himself, his love and how peopel are zombies and he's god.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:37 pm

I think they are both really interesting in their own way. I don't think I could choose.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:54 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] has a point, Though i find Dylan far more interesting, I think Eric had a far more powerful hatred for the world around him. I believe Dylan came up with NBK because he was too weary to commit suicide on his own, He even says that in his journal, But going NBK with eric would put him in a position where he has no other choice, Which is EXACTLY what happened.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[

Dylan knew he was going to blow up the school and kill everyone and he didn't give a hoot. His homicidal plans didn't upset his life at all. He just went on as usual. To Dylan, his mass murder plans weren't even enough of a big deal to bother writing about them.

But the question is, did going on as normal mean he didn't care, or he was clever enough to hide his feelings and plans? I personally think the latter. This was their final statement to the world.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:15 am

I think they are both very interesting. Eric on the verge of sanity and Dylan being the complex creature. I don't think either is more interesting than the other, they are both fascinating. And I don't think they could be as interesting without the influence of each other. I suppose that is why we are still figuring them out to this day.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:09 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[

Dylan knew he was going to blow up the school and kill everyone and he didn't give a hoot. His homicidal plans didn't upset his life at all. He just went on as usual. To Dylan, his mass murder plans weren't even enough of a big deal to bother writing about them.

But the question is, did going on as normal mean he didn't care, or he was clever enough to hide his feelings and plans? I personally think the latter. This was their final statement to the world.

Dylan hid the plans for NBK, just like Eric did (they both did some stupid stuff that could reveal them in hindsight mind you).

However I don't think Dylan was someone who had to work relaly hard at pretending or who was some sort of uber-deceptive mastermind. Dylan was in fact like many other shooters - a meek, sullen introvert. That's how people like him behave throuought 99% of their lives. Cho was the same.

Once they detonate and go on a rampage, people don't recognize them as they never behaved in such a way before. For good reasons too. Here's what a Forensic Psychologist wrote about Cho's videos;
Michael Welner wrote:
"I think that's very important for the viewing audience to understand. This is not him [Cho].These videos do not help us understand him. They distort him. He was meek. He was quiet. This is a PR tape of him trying to turn himself into a Quentin Tarantino character,"

Same goes for Dylan imho. Dylan was more intelligent and had mroe social skills than Cho did, but in the end I think they were kindred spirits. They had a lot of anger, but the massacres themselves were really made to boost up their egos as well as to help them move to a suicide, which they might not have had the guts to go through with otherwise.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:01 pm

Definitely Dylan. Not only is he mysterious compared to Eric, but he had a lot of the same views and mental issues I've faced growing up. Eric only became interesting to me once I realized everything he says is a show he put on for us. Eric wanted fame and recognition and in a way all of us who browse this forum have given him that. Dylan didn't care as much for how the world would see him. He cared more about what would happen to him personally after death. If Dylan had survived and his journal had been released I think he would have felt embarrassed. Not because of the things he wrote about, but because he was a very private person. Dylan was also very selfish when it came to NBK. He used Eric the "master of deception". His urge to die was so strong that he manipulated his best friend using Eric's anger against him. Columbine would have been a simple school shooting if Dylan had done it by himself. By using Eric he could insure more deaths while setting his death in stone. Dylan needed a grand exit not because he wanted fame, but because he needed enough violence to occur so that living wouldn't be an option. I've said it before and ill say it again: You can't live a normal life after bombing a cafeteria full of children. Eric and his bombs were Dylan's way of making sure he'd go through with dying. Even his best friend (Eric) had no idea who Dylan really was inside. That's what really interests me about him.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:10 pm

I agree, Nirvana

Plus I strongly believe Eric needed Dylan than vice versa.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:49 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
If Dylan had survived and his journal had been released I think he would have felt embarrassed. Not because of the things he wrote about, but because he was a very private person.
I diagree with most of what you wrote, but this part in particular.

Dylan had on purose destroyed his HD. If he really cared taht much about his journal not being made public, he would have burned it. Or buried it, or just thrown it into a dumpster a month before 20/4/99.

No, Dylan wanted the journal to be found. That's why he did not destroy it, unlike his computer drive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Dylan didn't care as much for how the world would see him.
Dylan would tend to disagree. "I know we are gonna have followers, cause we are so fucking Godlike" - Dylan.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Dylan needed a grand exit not because he wanted fame, but because he needed enough violence to occur so that living wouldn't be an option.
He wanted soem fame, but I agree, the whole event for him was mostly to act as a scene for his suicide and not leave any way for him to chicken out.

Remember his journal? He several times writes something o the extent of : "This is the last time I'm writing to you" and then: "Well, this time is really the last time trust me"... and he comes back again to write. He certainly wanted suicide, but wasn't able to put himself through it.
That's why imho he joined forces with Eric to make NBK. So taht he wouldn't have the option to chicken out anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:29 am

Team Dyl all the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Wich one: E or D?   Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:35 am

I think Dylan is more interesting.

Personally I think he is harder to figure out, which intrigues me.

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