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 Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh

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Screamingophelia
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   July 11th 2018, 8:44 am

You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric. Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.


That will never get old
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   July 11th 2018, 8:44 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old


NEVER! Haha

_________________
Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   July 11th 2018, 8:49 am

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I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.


I don't see any resemblance between McVeigh and Lane. scratch
I think they both have the same nose and are bald.

But again that's just me, I mean I think Dylan is more good looking then Eric.
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Screamingophelia
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   July 11th 2018, 9:19 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.


I don't see any resemblance between McVeigh and Lane. scratch
I think they both have the same nose and are bald.

But again that's just me, I mean I think Dylan is more good looking then Eric.


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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   July 11th 2018, 9:21 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old


NEVER! Haha

And I will never believe if Eric did end up getting laid before the massacre that he would not have at least checked his little box that he made on his list. That’s at the very least... I’m pretty sure he would’ve told everybody
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   July 11th 2018, 9:23 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old


NEVER! Haha

And I will never believe if Eric did end up getting laid before the massacre that he would not have at least checked his  little box that he made on his list. That’s at the very least... I’m pretty sure he would’ve told everybody


True! He would have checked that little box with the biggest, boldest, check mark that paper allowed! Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   July 12th 2018, 7:35 am

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           Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

                                             William Ernest Henley







McVeigh offered no last words before being executed. Instead he chose this poem to stand as his last thoughts. Invictus was written in 1875.

Timmy had decent taste in poetry.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 7:56 am

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Highlights from article-


It was the last time father and son would see each other.

With a wall of glass between them, Timothy McVeigh looked his father and sister, Jennifer, in the eyes and admitted his guilt to them for the first time. He answered every one of their questions.

But on April 10, when they met this final time at the U.S. Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Ind., the Oklahoma City bomber refused one of his father's last requests.

"I would've liked to have had him apologize," Bill McVeigh told The Oklahoman in a telephone interview from his home in Pendleton, N.Y.

"But the answer is, that he give me was, if he was apologizing, if he apologized, it would be just to make the people happy. It wouldn't be the truth.

"So, you know, in other words, he told me he still feels he did the right thing."

And so this law-abiding father, who spends his days of retirement at the golf course, the bowling alley, the bingo hall - anywhere but alone in the chair where he is left to think, has come to accept the mind-set of Timothy McVeigh. Or at least that he can't do anything about it.

"That's the tough part about it. This is tough for me to take, but this is basically what he tells everybody, you know. 'Tim, don't you think you should apologize? Dad, if I did I wouldn't be telling the truth.' So I guess that's a truthful answer."

As Oklahomans prepare for the May 16 execution of the bomber who took 168 lives and injured hundreds of others, his 61-year-old father prepares for the loss of his only son. Bill McVeigh loves the boy he still calls "Timmy" - but he disagrees with "90 percent of his theories" and hates what his son did. He won't attend the execution at his son's request, and neither will any other family members.

He also knows an apology wouldn't change anything - and the retired factory worker didn't expect one anyway.

"I did ask him that straight out, you know, if he was going to apologize," the father said. "When I got there, by reading the first part of the book, I knew what his answer was going to be. But I had to hear it from him."

Bill McVeigh said his son asked him not to visit until the release of the book, "American Terrorist," in which Timothy McVeigh, 32, admits to bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and says he has no sympathy for the people in Oklahoma City.

The book opened the door for questions. Bill McVeigh said he showed up with a list - and in their 3 1/2 hour visit, his son answered everything.

Despite the somber circumstances, Bill McVeigh said the conversation came easy.

"Tim is going to tell you the way it is and that's it, you know. You ask him a question, he's going to answer it with what he thinks is right," McVeigh said. "You know, whether you think it's right or not, that's something different. But he tells how it is, and I appreciate that."

"To me, we were always close, but if the people ask Tim, he says we weren't, so I really don't understand what he thinks close is," Bill McVeigh said.

Father and son talk on the phone about twice a month and never run out of things to say.

Despite his son's wishes to have no funeral or memorial service, Bill McVeigh said there will be a private memorial at Good Shepherd for close friends and family members. That was one concession the mild-mannered father extracted from his determined son.

"I asked him if that was all right, and he said, 'Sure, if that's what you want to do, go ahead,'" the father said.

Timothy McVeigh had given his father a list of six or eight items that included his request for no service, as well as a "do not resuscitate" order and instructions for his cremated remains to go to his attorney, Rob Nigh of Tulsa.

"He won't tell us where they're going to dump them," Bill McVeigh said. "He don't want us to have anything to do with it."

A devout Catholic, Bill McVeigh said he hasn't made peace yet with his son's afterlife. He said Timothy McVeigh has at least five of his six witnesses selected, and a spiritual adviser is not among them.

During their last visit, Jennifer McVeigh asked her brother whether he believed in God.

"His first response was, a God but a different God. And then he went on to explain to Jenny, but I didn't hear anymore of it."

There's no question in Bill McVeigh's mind that his son is ready for execution. The bomber told his father last fall that he was ready to drop his appeals, which he did in December.

"He just, he felt it was time to quit," Bill McVeigh said. "He knows he did it, you know, so where's he going to get, you know? I mean, he lives in a what, 8-by-10 or 6-by-10 cell or something, no recreation, nothing. If he exercises, it's in a cage by himself. You know, I figure he's just had enough. It's time."

That doesn't mean the father is ready to see his son go.

"I'll never be ready. I can't say, you know, it's only a month from today. I thought about that when I woke up this morning. No, I'll never be ready."

And yet Bill McVeigh said he sympathizes with families and survivors of the bombing. Some Oklahomans, such as Bud Welch and Kathy Wilburn, who both lost loved ones, have reached out to him in friendship.

"This is a man who is going through absolute hell," said Welch, an opponent of the death penalty who visited Bill McVeigh in 1998 and sat around the kitchen table with him. Welch, whose daughter Julie was killed, recalled looking at Timothy McVeigh's high school picture hanging on the wall - "God, what a good-looking kid," he said then.

Welch called Bill McVeigh another victim of this tragedy. Some Oklahomans have said they are keeping Bill McVeigh in their thoughts; a few others intend to make contact, either by mail or perhaps in person.

"He needs to know that families hold him in no way accountable. As a parent, we cannot live our children's lives when they get out on their own," said Tom Kight, who lost his stepdaughter, Frankie Merrell, in the bombing.

So even if his son won't apologize, Bill McVeigh doesn't hesitate to say he is sorry the bombing happened.

"I'm still sitting here saying to myself, I don't understand how anybody, no more my son, could do something like this, and I still don't, you know. I can ask him why all day long and he can tell me his reasons, and with me they don't make no sense," he said.

When their visit ended, there were no hugs good-bye. Timothy McVeigh had been given the option of hugging his family one last time, but his father said he declined.

"Jennifer says, 'Ain't we gonna get to hug?' And he says, 'You know, they asked me and told me I could and I said no.' And Jenny says, 'I know you're not a hugger, but Timmy, this is the time we should've had a hug,'" his father recalled. "And he just laughed."

Before McVeigh was led away in handcuffs, his father and sister put their hands on the glass. The son and brother met them halfway.

"He put his hands up against the glass and me and Jenny touched him. Touched the glass where his hands were. But that - that's the way that went."






How could any parent ever be ready for the death of their child? Hell he was still trying to come to terms with the fact his son could have done the things he did do, or had a hand in doing.

Much less facing his death by execution.  Sad

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 2:43 pm

Wow!! Thank you for sharing that Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 2:47 pm

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I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

I'm not blaming Bill McVeigh for it though.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 2:55 pm

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

_________________
Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 3:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

Agreed And honestly when you look at the big cases. Be it shootings, bombings or serial killers there is always a string of narcissism
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 3:08 pm

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

I think its one thing to want to be in control of one's soul. It is another thing to pick these lines as your farewell note, especially in a situation where you are being led to your execution. A situation that few would call a good example of being a "master of one's fate".

Its not that the poem is itself narcissistic, its the circumstances he is using it. He is anything but "in control", but still wants to project an impresiion of being in control

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 3:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

I think its one thing to want to be in control of one's soul. It is another thing to pick these lines as your farewell note, especially in a situation where you are being led to your execution. A situation that few would call a good example of being a "master of one's fate".

Its not that the poem is itself narcissistic, its the circumstances he is using it. He is anything but "in control", but still wants to project an impresiion of being in control
Well, I fully believe that Tim wanted to be caught. He wanted to be put on trial. He knew he would lose but he would have a chance to get his message to the public. He succeeded. He actually mentioned wanting to have the execution televised. In his eyes, it would probably even highlight the hypocrisy of the American government. He would have been excused for "collateral damage" while in the army but outside of that context he was given a death sentence. That was his point of view.

Also, the man used his life for the purpose he saw fit, right or wrong. His fate was decided as soon as he lit the fuse but he decided to light that fuse. As with any mass shooter who commits suicide, they've gotten the last word in terms of their own life, regardless of what anyone else thinks. From his perspective, Tim got his revenge on the government and he also had the chance to tell the world his story. He didn't think he was going to get away with it and in fact, there is reason to suspect that he made it easier for them catch him because he wanted his day in court.

You can still be the master of your fate, the captain of your soul, even if you decide to steer the ship into an iceberg on purpose.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 3:39 pm

I'm not sure he "wanted to be caught", with this sort of attack and scale, he just knew that will be caught.

Now once he reconciled himself with being caught, I'm sure he wanted to be executed and he would prefer it to be televised etc. To die in public, adamantly holding his ground for his cause. That was probably his desire.

At the same time, he appeared to want to seem to be in control, to seem strong. I think it is worth noting that instead of a poem that refers to the cause he wanted to defend, he chose the one with "I am the master of my fate".

That's my evaluation: This bombing was about Tim McVeigh first, all the "grand causes" came second.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Yesterday at 4:07 pm

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I'm not sure he "wanted to be caught", with this sort of attack and scale, he just knew that will be caught.

Now once he reconciled himself with being caught, I'm sure he wanted to be executed and he would prefer it to be televised etc. To die in public, adamantly holding his ground for his cause. That was probably his desire.

At the same time, he appeared to want to seem to be in control, to seem strong. I think it is worth noting that instead of a poem that refers to the cause he wanted to defend, he chose the one with "I am the master of my fate".

That's my evaluation: This bombing was about Tim McVeigh first, all the "grand causes" came second.
Well, I do agree with the bolded sentence completely. I said something to that effect in a long, rambling post earlier in the thread.

Still, I would say that Tim did believe what he was saying and he made his final official statement on the bombing on the day of his sentencing.
Quote :
If the Court please, I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me. He wrote, "Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example."

That's all I have.


Timothy McVeigh, August 14, 1997 -- just prior to being officially sentenced to death

This is a lovely, in-depth interpretation of the meaning of that statement.
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In case you don't want to read it all, here is the longer passage which McVeigh pulled that sentence from, so you can make your own judgment as to the meaning and whether it was relevant to his motive.
Quote :
"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face."

The poem was about his life because the execution was about his life.

In regard to why I believe he wanted to be caught: Tim committed crimes in the past without being caught. He could have had some freedom in the aftermath of the bombing, if only for a short time, and he had even considered what he might do following the bombing if he wasn't immediately apprehended.

In reality, Tim left the plates off of his car, was pulled over within hours of the bombing and was promptly arrested because he was illegally carrying a concealed weapon at the time. He left materials in his car that he hoped would be leaked to the media.

He could easily have stolen plates from someone else if he didn't want to use his own. He could have left his gun in the trunk. He could have shot at the cop and he would have escaped with his freedom for some amount of time, or started a shootout that would leave him dead, never to be imprisoned or held accountable for his crimes. He was sneaky. He got away with an elaborate home invasion and a major break-in at a construction site but he couldn't drive away from the scene of the crime without getting himself caught this time? I think he made a choice and it was just as calculated as anything else he did. He wanted credit for this.
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Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh
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