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 Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh

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Screamingophelia
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:44 am

You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric. Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.


That will never get old

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:44 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old


NEVER! Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:49 am

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I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.


I don't see any resemblance between McVeigh and Lane. scratch
I think they both have the same nose and are bald.

But again that's just me, I mean I think Dylan is more good looking then Eric.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:19 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.


I don't see any resemblance between McVeigh and Lane. scratch
I think they both have the same nose and are bald.

But again that's just me, I mean I think Dylan is more good looking then Eric.


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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:21 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old


NEVER! Haha

And I will never believe if Eric did end up getting laid before the massacre that he would not have at least checked his little box that he made on his list. That’s at the very least... I’m pretty sure he would’ve told everybody
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old


NEVER! Haha

And I will never believe if Eric did end up getting laid before the massacre that he would not have at least checked his  little box that he made on his list. That’s at the very least... I’m pretty sure he would’ve told everybody


True! He would have checked that little box with the biggest, boldest, check mark that paper allowed! Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:35 am

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           Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

                                             William Ernest Henley







McVeigh offered no last words before being executed. Instead he chose this poem to stand as his last thoughts. Invictus was written in 1875.

Timmy had decent taste in poetry.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:56 am

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Highlights from article-


It was the last time father and son would see each other.

With a wall of glass between them, Timothy McVeigh looked his father and sister, Jennifer, in the eyes and admitted his guilt to them for the first time. He answered every one of their questions.

But on April 10, when they met this final time at the U.S. Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Ind., the Oklahoma City bomber refused one of his father's last requests.

"I would've liked to have had him apologize," Bill McVeigh told The Oklahoman in a telephone interview from his home in Pendleton, N.Y.

"But the answer is, that he give me was, if he was apologizing, if he apologized, it would be just to make the people happy. It wouldn't be the truth.

"So, you know, in other words, he told me he still feels he did the right thing."

And so this law-abiding father, who spends his days of retirement at the golf course, the bowling alley, the bingo hall - anywhere but alone in the chair where he is left to think, has come to accept the mind-set of Timothy McVeigh. Or at least that he can't do anything about it.

"That's the tough part about it. This is tough for me to take, but this is basically what he tells everybody, you know. 'Tim, don't you think you should apologize? Dad, if I did I wouldn't be telling the truth.' So I guess that's a truthful answer."

As Oklahomans prepare for the May 16 execution of the bomber who took 168 lives and injured hundreds of others, his 61-year-old father prepares for the loss of his only son. Bill McVeigh loves the boy he still calls "Timmy" - but he disagrees with "90 percent of his theories" and hates what his son did. He won't attend the execution at his son's request, and neither will any other family members.

He also knows an apology wouldn't change anything - and the retired factory worker didn't expect one anyway.

"I did ask him that straight out, you know, if he was going to apologize," the father said. "When I got there, by reading the first part of the book, I knew what his answer was going to be. But I had to hear it from him."

Bill McVeigh said his son asked him not to visit until the release of the book, "American Terrorist," in which Timothy McVeigh, 32, admits to bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and says he has no sympathy for the people in Oklahoma City.

The book opened the door for questions. Bill McVeigh said he showed up with a list - and in their 3 1/2 hour visit, his son answered everything.

Despite the somber circumstances, Bill McVeigh said the conversation came easy.

"Tim is going to tell you the way it is and that's it, you know. You ask him a question, he's going to answer it with what he thinks is right," McVeigh said. "You know, whether you think it's right or not, that's something different. But he tells how it is, and I appreciate that."

"To me, we were always close, but if the people ask Tim, he says we weren't, so I really don't understand what he thinks close is," Bill McVeigh said.

Father and son talk on the phone about twice a month and never run out of things to say.

Despite his son's wishes to have no funeral or memorial service, Bill McVeigh said there will be a private memorial at Good Shepherd for close friends and family members. That was one concession the mild-mannered father extracted from his determined son.

"I asked him if that was all right, and he said, 'Sure, if that's what you want to do, go ahead,'" the father said.

Timothy McVeigh had given his father a list of six or eight items that included his request for no service, as well as a "do not resuscitate" order and instructions for his cremated remains to go to his attorney, Rob Nigh of Tulsa.

"He won't tell us where they're going to dump them," Bill McVeigh said. "He don't want us to have anything to do with it."

A devout Catholic, Bill McVeigh said he hasn't made peace yet with his son's afterlife. He said Timothy McVeigh has at least five of his six witnesses selected, and a spiritual adviser is not among them.

During their last visit, Jennifer McVeigh asked her brother whether he believed in God.

"His first response was, a God but a different God. And then he went on to explain to Jenny, but I didn't hear anymore of it."

There's no question in Bill McVeigh's mind that his son is ready for execution. The bomber told his father last fall that he was ready to drop his appeals, which he did in December.

"He just, he felt it was time to quit," Bill McVeigh said. "He knows he did it, you know, so where's he going to get, you know? I mean, he lives in a what, 8-by-10 or 6-by-10 cell or something, no recreation, nothing. If he exercises, it's in a cage by himself. You know, I figure he's just had enough. It's time."

That doesn't mean the father is ready to see his son go.

"I'll never be ready. I can't say, you know, it's only a month from today. I thought about that when I woke up this morning. No, I'll never be ready."

And yet Bill McVeigh said he sympathizes with families and survivors of the bombing. Some Oklahomans, such as Bud Welch and Kathy Wilburn, who both lost loved ones, have reached out to him in friendship.

"This is a man who is going through absolute hell," said Welch, an opponent of the death penalty who visited Bill McVeigh in 1998 and sat around the kitchen table with him. Welch, whose daughter Julie was killed, recalled looking at Timothy McVeigh's high school picture hanging on the wall - "God, what a good-looking kid," he said then.

Welch called Bill McVeigh another victim of this tragedy. Some Oklahomans have said they are keeping Bill McVeigh in their thoughts; a few others intend to make contact, either by mail or perhaps in person.

"He needs to know that families hold him in no way accountable. As a parent, we cannot live our children's lives when they get out on their own," said Tom Kight, who lost his stepdaughter, Frankie Merrell, in the bombing.

So even if his son won't apologize, Bill McVeigh doesn't hesitate to say he is sorry the bombing happened.

"I'm still sitting here saying to myself, I don't understand how anybody, no more my son, could do something like this, and I still don't, you know. I can ask him why all day long and he can tell me his reasons, and with me they don't make no sense," he said.

When their visit ended, there were no hugs good-bye. Timothy McVeigh had been given the option of hugging his family one last time, but his father said he declined.

"Jennifer says, 'Ain't we gonna get to hug?' And he says, 'You know, they asked me and told me I could and I said no.' And Jenny says, 'I know you're not a hugger, but Timmy, this is the time we should've had a hug,'" his father recalled. "And he just laughed."

Before McVeigh was led away in handcuffs, his father and sister put their hands on the glass. The son and brother met them halfway.

"He put his hands up against the glass and me and Jenny touched him. Touched the glass where his hands were. But that - that's the way that went."






How could any parent ever be ready for the death of their child? Hell he was still trying to come to terms with the fact his son could have done the things he did do, or had a hand in doing.

Much less facing his death by execution.  Sad

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 pm

Wow!! Thank you for sharing that Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

I'm not blaming Bill McVeigh for it though.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:55 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

Agreed And honestly when you look at the big cases. Be it shootings, bombings or serial killers there is always a string of narcissism
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:08 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

I think its one thing to want to be in control of one's soul. It is another thing to pick these lines as your farewell note, especially in a situation where you are being led to your execution. A situation that few would call a good example of being a "master of one's fate".

Its not that the poem is itself narcissistic, its the circumstances he is using it. He is anything but "in control", but still wants to project an impresiion of being in control

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

I think its one thing to want to be in control of one's soul. It is another thing to pick these lines as your farewell note, especially in a situation where you are being led to your execution. A situation that few would call a good example of being a "master of one's fate".

Its not that the poem is itself narcissistic, its the circumstances he is using it. He is anything but "in control", but still wants to project an impresiion of being in control
Well, I fully believe that Tim wanted to be caught. He wanted to be put on trial. He knew he would lose but he would have a chance to get his message to the public. He succeeded. He actually mentioned wanting to have the execution televised. In his eyes, it would probably even highlight the hypocrisy of the American government. He would have been excused for "collateral damage" while in the army but outside of that context he was given a death sentence. That was his point of view.

Also, the man used his life for the purpose he saw fit, right or wrong. His fate was decided as soon as he lit the fuse but he decided to light that fuse. As with any mass shooter who commits suicide, they've gotten the last word in terms of their own life, regardless of what anyone else thinks. From his perspective, Tim got his revenge on the government and he also had the chance to tell the world his story. He didn't think he was going to get away with it and in fact, there is reason to suspect that he made it easier for them catch him because he wanted his day in court.

You can still be the master of your fate, the captain of your soul, even if you decide to steer the ship into an iceberg on purpose.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:39 pm

I'm not sure he "wanted to be caught", with this sort of attack and scale, he just knew that will be caught.

Now once he reconciled himself with being caught, I'm sure he wanted to be executed and he would prefer it to be televised etc. To die in public, adamantly holding his ground for his cause. That was probably his desire.

At the same time, he appeared to want to seem to be in control, to seem strong. I think it is worth noting that instead of a poem that refers to the cause he wanted to defend, he chose the one with "I am the master of my fate".

That's my evaluation: This bombing was about Tim McVeigh first, all the "grand causes" came second.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm not sure he "wanted to be caught", with this sort of attack and scale, he just knew that will be caught.

Now once he reconciled himself with being caught, I'm sure he wanted to be executed and he would prefer it to be televised etc. To die in public, adamantly holding his ground for his cause. That was probably his desire.

At the same time, he appeared to want to seem to be in control, to seem strong. I think it is worth noting that instead of a poem that refers to the cause he wanted to defend, he chose the one with "I am the master of my fate".

That's my evaluation: This bombing was about Tim McVeigh first, all the "grand causes" came second.
Well, I do agree with the bolded sentence completely. I said something to that effect in a long, rambling post earlier in the thread.

Still, I would say that Tim did believe what he was saying and he made his final official statement on the bombing on the day of his sentencing.
Quote :
If the Court please, I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me. He wrote, "Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example."

That's all I have.


Timothy McVeigh, August 14, 1997 -- just prior to being officially sentenced to death

This is a lovely, in-depth interpretation of the meaning of that statement.
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In case you don't want to read it all, here is the longer passage which McVeigh pulled that sentence from, so you can make your own judgment as to the meaning and whether it was relevant to his motive.
Quote :
"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face."

The poem was about his life because the execution was about his life.

In regard to why I believe he wanted to be caught: Tim committed crimes in the past without being caught. He could have had some freedom in the aftermath of the bombing, if only for a short time, and he had even considered what he might do following the bombing if he wasn't immediately apprehended.

In reality, Tim left the plates off of his car, was pulled over within hours of the bombing and was promptly arrested because he was illegally carrying a concealed weapon at the time. He left materials in his car that he hoped would be leaked to the media.

He could easily have stolen plates from someone else if he didn't want to use his own. He could have left his gun in the trunk. He could have shot at the cop and he would have escaped with his freedom for some amount of time, or started a shootout that would leave him dead, never to be imprisoned or held accountable for his crimes. He was sneaky. He got away with an elaborate home invasion and a major break-in at a construction site but he couldn't drive away from the scene of the crime without getting himself caught this time? I think he made a choice and it was just as calculated as anything else he did. He wanted credit for this.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:46 am

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Well, I fully believe that Tim wanted to be caught. He wanted to be put on trial. He knew he would lose but he would have a chance to get his message to the public. He succeeded. He actually mentioned wanting to have the execution televised. In his eyes, it would probably even highlight the hypocrisy of the American government. He would have been excused for "collateral damage" while in the army but outside of that context he was given a death sentence. That was his point of view.

Also, the man used his life for the purpose he saw fit, right or wrong. His fate was decided as soon as he lit the fuse but he decided to light that fuse. As with any mass shooter who commits suicide, they've gotten the last word in terms of their own life, regardless of what anyone else thinks. From his perspective, Tim got his revenge on the government and he also had the chance to tell the world his story. He didn't think he was going to get away with it and in fact, there is reason to suspect that he made it easier for them catch him because he wanted his day in court.

You can still be the master of your fate, the captain of your soul, even if you decide to steer the ship into an iceberg on purpose.



Agreed. I do think McVeigh thought long and hard about getting caught, also about what his life would be like if he wasn't. Then decided pretty much just to leave it to chance/fate.

"In his eyes, it would probably even highlight the hypocrisy of the American government. He would have been excused for "collateral damage" while in the army but outside of that context he was given a death sentence. That was his point of view.."  

This is dead on accurate!  Tim had a very jaded view of things after his Military service, and also seemed to have a great dislike for the government as a whole.

But the more one digs into it, the more things start getting sketchy. Some things add up and others don't at all. It's a known fact the FBI hid/destroyed/withheld evidence relating to the case. Some think Tim was a government Op, while others think he was just a traitor. Some think Tim had help, possibly even from our own government, while some believe the "Lone Wolf" theory. Which is what McVeigh wanted, he did want full credit for the attack. But the bigger and more importantly the unanswered question is, did he want full credit because he was a narcissistic psychopath? OR was he covering for other people involved, which may or may not have included the government? scratch  

I guess it depends on which angle you choose to look at it from. I try to look at something from all angles possible. This is where you see the right and wrong of everything.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:11 am

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Tim committed crimes in the past without being caught. (...) He was sneaky. He got away with an elaborate home invasion and a major break-in at a construction site but he couldn't drive away from the scene of the crime without getting himself caught this time?

A bombing on this scale is something else entirely. Home invasion is one thing, but the bombing would initiate a nationwide manhut (that in the end got Tim's accomplices nailed). Tim was not stupid and he knew he would be caught at some point. I doubt he expected to be caught so quickly though, I think he was hoping to have some time "on the run".

I also don't see a reason to think Tim planned the thing with the plates on purpose. He did plan ahead and placed that getaway car on that parking lot and went to some lenght to make sure the car wouldn't be towed away before the bombing. This wouldn't make much sense if his intention was already to get caught on day 1.

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He could easily have stolen plates from someone else if he didn't want to use his own. He could have left his gun in the trunk.
I don't see much reasons to consider this as deliberate sabotage, instead of just seeing it as flaws in the plan that got him caught. Ockham's razor 101.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:22 am

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I don't see much reasons to consider this as deliberate sabotage, instead of just seeing it as flaws in the plan that got him caught. Ockham's razor 101.
I can't say with certainty whether or not he did it on purpose but there is as much reason to believe that he did if you take context into consideration. Yes, there was a nationwide manhunt but the scale of his crime had absolutely nothing to to do with immediately landing himself in a local jail so that is irrelevant. I never said that he expected to escape to Mexico but this was the first time in his life that he was arrested for anything at all, despite numerous crimes. And you are correct in saying that he planned ahead and he made sure that his car was not towed before the bombing but he did that by removing a plate on the back of his car and then backing it up against a wall so it wouldn't be noticed. What was the point in removing the plate at all? I'm sure that the simplest answer is that he was a dope who forgot how to get away with a crime right after pulling off the worst act domestic terrorism in US history but I have a hard time believing it. rabbit Agree to disagree!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Which is what McVeigh wanted, he did want full credit for the attack. But the bigger and more importantly the unanswered question is, did he want full credit because he was a narcissistic psychopath? OR was he covering for other people involved, which may or may not have included the government?
I wouldn't say that McVeigh was a lone wolf because he surely had accomplices but I believe the official story, that they were other men who shared his sentiments. I would not be surprised if there was further minimal involvement from additional accomplices but I also wouldn't be surprised if the truth is already out. I don't know what the government would have gained by facilitating this attack although I'll admit that I have never really looked into the government conspiracy theories and I am not aware of the evidence tampering or what that might suggest. I would be willing to believe that there was some involvement with the white supremacist militia group that he was distantly connected with (I can't remember the name or details anymore). I don't think that Tim necessarily had to be a psychopath to want all of the credit for himself although I do consider it a possibility, but if he was not psychopathic and he implicated anyone within a well-armed, well-financed group of radicals, he could potentially put his family in danger and I don't think he wanted to do that. I think the most likely situation is that he was a narcissist and very proud of himself for being able to plan and carry out this enormous crime, mostly by himself. He more or less bragged about that in later interviews when he said, "The truth is, I blew up the Murrah Building. And isn't it kind of scary that one man could reap this kind of hell?" It wasn't even technically true and that would go along with his arrogance or with his habit of lying but in either case, it made his crime appear to be even more impressive.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:18 pm

McVeigh almost evaded the cop that day. The cop himself admitted it was luck and that he was planning to let McVeigh go after giving him a ticket. McVeigh agaion had bad luck because the local judge would then hear him and probably let him go again, but was delayed due to random stuff.

Quote :
McVeigh didn't have proof of insurance or a bill of sale for the car. He told the always-suspicious Hanger that he was on a long, multi-state drive — moving to Arkansas and on his way to get more of his belongings. But there was no suitcase in the car. No change of clothes, either.

As McVeigh reached into his rear pocket for his driver's license, his windbreaker tightened, and Hanger noticed the bulge of a shoulder holster under his left arm. McVeigh was wearing a loaded Glock pistol and had a 6-inch knife on his belt.

"My gun is loaded," Hanger recalled McVeigh telling him as Hanger grabbed the bulge under the jacket.

"So is mine," the trooper responded, putting his own gun to McVeigh's head before arresting him for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon. If he hadn't spotted the bulge, he would have let McVeigh go with a ticket.

As Hanger drove back to the Noble County Courthouse, McVeigh, sitting in the passenger seat, rattled off the serial number of his gun, correctly except for a single digit. He asked Hanger how fast his car ran, what kind of firearm he carried, how he could get his own gun back.

"I thought it was just nervous chatter," Hanger said. "The radio was going. They were still sending units to Oklahoma City. I never made any comment about it and he never made any comment about it. I thought, 'He's just passing through. He doesn't know what's going on.'"

Hanger booked McVeigh into the Noble County Jail, inmate 95-057, and took his wife to lunch. Like everyone else, he was glued to the TV news coverage of the bombing.

As the nation searched for the bomber and public speculation lingered on men of Middle Eastern descent,McVeigh sat in a concrete cell atop the aging courthouse.

McVeigh was supposed to go before a county judge the next day, Thursday, but his hearing was delayed because the judge got tied up in a messy divorce case. The hearing was rescheduled for Friday.

Hanger was at home that morning when a dispatcher with Highway Patrol headquarters called asking if McVeigh was still in jail. Hanger doubted it, since he could easily make bail, but to his surprise McVeigh was still there, his car still parked by the interstate about 35 miles south of the Kansas state line.

McVeigh's hearing had been delayed again, this time because the judge's son had missed the school bus and the judge had to give the boy a ride. McVeigh probably would be seeing the judge any minute, Hanger told the dispatcher. Put a hold on him for the FBI, he was told. Now.
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So to say the truth, he almost managed to get away at least on that day. I'm sure he would get caught later on though either way. He seems to have been ready to flee and all those preparations with the getaway car would have been pointless if he wanted to get caught then. I think Tim forgetting about the plates in teh heat of the moment is a simple explanation.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:36 pm

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Which is what McVeigh wanted, he did want full credit for the attack. But the bigger and more importantly the unanswered question is, did he want full credit because he was a narcissistic psychopath? OR was he covering for other people involved, which may or may not have included the government?

I wouldn't say that McVeigh was a lone wolf because he surely had accomplices but I believe the official story, that they were other men who shared his sentiments. I would not be surprised if there was further minimal involvement from additional accomplices but I also wouldn't be surprised if the truth is already out. I don't know what the government would have gained by facilitating this attack although I'll admit that I have never really looked into the government conspiracy theories and I am not aware of the evidence tampering or what that might suggest. I would be willing to believe that there was some involvement with the white supremacist militia group that he was distantly connected with (I can't remember the name or details anymore). I don't think that Tim necessarily had to be a psychopath to want all of the credit for himself although I do consider it a possibility, but if he was not psychopathic and he implicated anyone within a well-armed, well-financed group of radicals, he could potentially put his family in danger and I don't think he wanted to do that. I think the most likely situation is that he was a narcissist and very proud of himself for being able to plan and carry out this enormous crime, mostly by himself. He more or less bragged about that in later interviews when he said, "The truth is, I blew up the Murrah Building. And isn't it kind of scary that one man could reap this kind of hell?" It wasn't even technically true and that would go along with his arrogance or with his habit of lying but in either case, it made his crime appear to be even more impressive.



I don't put much stock into the Lone Wolf theory either. Although McVeigh did spend A LOT of time trying to convince everyone that this was the case. He continually butted heads with his lawyers over it. He was basically against anything that made it look as though he had or much less needed any help to carry out the attack. Some of it was indeed just pure arrogance on Tim's part.

He knew he was going down, and decided to do it as dignified as he possibly could. So in my opinion he took the "I'm the Captain, so I will go down with the ship alone" approach.  But there is also significant evidence that points to others being involved. As you had said, from white supremacists and other militia type groups, down to members of the government.  I believe Tim considered it a noble action to not rat out who else might have helped him. I also think he may have been taking all the blame to possibly protect friends and his family too. After all he was dealing with a wide variety of unscrupulous groups, our own government probably being the worst of the lot.  

As for the conspiracy theories, those are quite varied. Some are based on actual evidence, while others are very far reaching and easily dismissed. The latter involve alien encounters, likely due to Tim visiting Area 51. To tracking/mind control devices being implanted in his ass by the military that was loosely based on a comment he jokingly made once! etc. Rolling Eyes  

So if you ever do dip into that side of the case just prepare yourself! Haha

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:19 pm

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                                     -Strange but true facts about Tim McVeigh-

1. McVeigh loved the song Bad Company by the band of the same name. He painted "Bad Company" on the turret of his Bradley and listened to the song frequently through his armored vehicle's stereo.

2. Other favorite tunes his listened to in the Gulf War: "White Rabbit" by Jefferson Airplane and songs by Queen.

3. McVeigh claimed he could identify with all the characters from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Of Captain Picard, he said: "The most respected man in Star Fleet, knows all systems, highly skilled diplomat, yet lonely man. Keeps his emotions in check; no quality I dislike or don't understand."

4. Of chief engineer LaForge: "Just look at the pride he takes in knowing his s--- ...I absolutely relate to the pride and care he takes in the upkeep of his systems."

5. McVeigh had a rather blunt pick-up line that he used effectively a couple of times while stationed at Fort Riley: "Okay, we've just met. We could sit here for three hours, wasting money on drinks, or we could just go now and get laid."

6. McVeigh earned a reputation for honesty as an armored guard when he found $8,000 that had been misplaced and promptly returned it.

7. Skinny as a young boy, bullies referred to him as "Noodle McVeigh."

8. His high school yearbook quote: "take it as it comes, buy a lamborghini, california girls"

9. McVeigh gave several cases of Army-issue ready-to-eat meals to poverty stricken families he encountered in Iraq.

10. As a security guard, McVeigh at one point worked the graveyard shift at The Buffalo Zoo.

11. Another assignment had him working next door to the abortion clinic of Dr. Barnett Slepian, allegedly murdered years later by the recently arrested fugitive James Kopp.

12. Nickname for McVeigh's Chevy Geo Spectrum: "The Road Warrior"

13. McVeigh applied to become a United States Marshall after getting out of the army but was turned down.

14. An avid Buffalo Bills fan, McVeigh lost $1000 betting on his team in the Super Bowl, when they lost to the Cowboys 52-17.

15. McVeigh once lied to some neighbors of Terry Nichols and told them the Army had implanted a computer chip in his butt.

16. The bomber didn't use his real name at gun shows, but instead went by the alias Tim Tuttle.

17. McVeigh once went to a massive motor cross rally in Sturgis, South Dakota, attracted by the biker lifestyle and stories about "wild biker babes."

18. In a letter to a girl back home he liked, McVeigh wrote: "I can take a hint, but this is my address anyway. If you ever need anything, let me know. 1. someone killed, blown up, etc. 2. a shoulder. 3. refuge. 4. fertilization from good stock when the clock starts ticking."

19. McVeigh has a female admirer in Germany, who has sent him a series of sexually explicit letters in prison.

20. As a teen, McVeigh loved the TV series Little House on the Prairie.


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Timmy had great taste in music. Here are a few pics from his time in the military, including some of his Bradley that he christened "Bad Company" . 

Also fact number 5. and 18. Are fucking hilarious!  I do wonder how often that line worked though?  scratch  An I now have to find that entire letter Tim had written to that girl, I must know the full context of it! Haha

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

18. In a letter to a girl back home he liked, McVeigh wrote: "I can take a hint, but this is my address anyway. If you ever need anything, let me know. 1. someone killed, blown up, etc. 2. a shoulder. 3. refuge. 4. fertilization from good stock when the clock starts ticking."

Eric would've given him a good pat on the back for this level of foreshadowing.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:13 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

18. In a letter to a girl back home he liked, McVeigh wrote: "I can take a hint, but this is my address anyway. If you ever need anything, let me know. 1. someone killed, blown up, etc. 2. a shoulder. 3. refuge. 4. fertilization from good stock when the clock starts ticking."

Eric would've given him a good pat on the back for this level of foreshadowing.


Very true.

At least his offer of a shoulder to cry on was 2nd on the list. Haha

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My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:32 am

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Just a heads up for anyone who collects this type of thing.  Someone on Tumblr is selling this from their collection. Said to be a copy of The Turner Diaries autographed by Timothy McVeigh.  

I have no clue of its authenticity. But if anyone is interested just search under Timothy McVeigh and it will pop up.

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My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:34 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
5. McVeigh had a rather blunt pick-up line that he used effectively a couple of times while stationed at Fort Riley: "Okay, we've just met. We could sit here for three hours, wasting money on drinks, or we could just go now and get laid."

They had both females and males at the time in Ft.Riley?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
3. McVeigh claimed he could identify with all the characters from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Of Captain Picard, he said: "The most respected man in Star Fleet, knows all systems, highly skilled diplomat, yet lonely man. Keeps his emotions in check; no quality I dislike or don't understand."

A very decent symptom of NPD, if the story is true. Of course it might be confirmation bias, as I'm convinced he did have NPD.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
5. McVeigh had a rather blunt pick-up line that he used effectively a couple of times while stationed at Fort Riley: "Okay, we've just met. We could sit here for three hours, wasting money on drinks, or we could just go now and get laid."

They had both females and males at the time in Ft.Riley?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
3. McVeigh claimed he could identify with all the characters from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Of Captain Picard, he said: "The most respected man in Star Fleet, knows all systems, highly skilled diplomat, yet lonely man. Keeps his emotions in check; no quality I dislike or don't understand."

A very decent symptom of NPD, if the story is true. Of course it might be confirmation bias, as I'm convinced he did have NPD.


I think this was a line that he used at bars, strip clubs, etc.

Although Tim did once mention having a female recruit put into training with him while he was in the Army. So I guess there were a few women being integrated during that time.  He said something along the lines of it being a hassle because she required escorts just to go to the bathroom, wasn't strong enough to carry the gear/weapons etc. and basically just couldn't pull her own weight. But at the moment I can't remember exactly which book or article that is from. scratch

Also Tim was a huge fan of Star Trek/Star Wars, he liked a lot of science fiction films/books.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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ShadowedGoddess
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:42 pm

"If I’m going to be sentenced to death, I might as well be comfortable."

Timothy McVeigh’s response to a US Marshal who asked why he was wearing a sweatshirt to jury deliberations during his trial instead of a dress shirt.




[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


He was likely wearing this exact type of sweatshirt.  

I won't lie, the first time I came across that tidbit of info it just made me laugh. Clearly Tim gave little to no fucks. Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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Neah

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:22 am

"Bill McVeigh said he showed up with a list - and in their 3 1/2 hour visit, his son answered everything."

It is so sad, Bill McVeigh really needed answers before his son died died.


Have any of you read the book American Terrorist? Is it good?
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ShadowedGoddess
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:37 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
"Bill McVeigh said he showed up with a list - and in their 3 1/2 hour visit, his son answered everything."

It is so sad, Bill McVeigh really needed answers before his son died died.


Have any of you read the book American Terrorist? Is it good?




Yes I own it, as well as a few others on the topic. In my opinion American Terrorist is a good book.

_________________
Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh
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