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 Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh

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ShadowedGoddess
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:21 pm

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Also, saying that access to bomb-making instructions turns good kids bad is almost as accurate as saying that assault rifles commit mass shootings.



I do agree with that.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:31 pm

So I tend to agree with Ted Kaczynski in that basically McVeigh’s message that he was trying to convey was over shadowed by the people he chose to kill.  His problem was that he couldn’t get close enough to the people who were responsible for the decisions made at Waco, Ruby Ridge, and ultimately in the wars where he was sent to battle.  So instead he chose innocent people who had no direct decision making powers in the reasons for his actions.  In my opinion, on April 19, he ultimately became the exact version of the people/person that he supposedly hated by killing innocent men, women, and children to make a political/ideological point.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:24 pm

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McVeigh at Waco. Also a few of the bumper stickers he was selling that day.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:13 pm

Nice pictures of him, when he tried to be heard peacefully.

Here is the first image in a fuller and larger version.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:49 am

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McVeigh at Waco. Also a few of the bumper stickers he was selling that day.

Ok this particular sticker annoys the shit out of me. The Nazis actually loosened restrictions on gun ownership when they were in power.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:08 am

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McVeigh at Waco. Also a few of the bumper stickers he was selling that day.

Ok this particular sticker annoys the shit out of me. The Nazis actually loosened restrictions on gun ownership when they were in power.

Yeah, except for Jews or other enemies:

Quote :
"The Nazis adopted a new gun law in 1938. [...] It deregulated the buying and selling of rifles, shotguns and ammunition. It made handguns easier to own by allowing anyone with a hunting license to buy, sell or carry one at any time. (You didn’t need to be hunting.) It also extended the permit period from one year to three and gave local officials more discretion in letting people under 18 get a gun."

Maybe he did that to shock people, or to show that he was not from the far-right. Or simply because he was ignorant. I think it is still a widespread false information.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:07 pm

I heard that McVeigh compared Waco to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, how delusional can you get?
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:00 am

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Came across this again! This was a back and forth issue that McVeigh had with the prison. He wanted a certain type of dental pick and was illustrating what he wanted. Note he even admitted "I suck at drawing". At least Tim knew he had limitations!

Although in my opinion his picture of the dental pick is pretty dead on accurate, and much better then his stick figure FBI/ATF agents and tanks in his Waco drawing. Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:07 am

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This was a letter written from a mother who lost her daughter in the attack. To my knowledge McVeigh never responded to any of the victims letters.

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:11 am

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Then here we have a 16 year old Fangirl who wanted to break him out of jail and then go kill Bill Clinton. Suspect  I wonder if she is still on a watch list somewhere? Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:17 am

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So during my still ongoing hunt for the full uncut, unedited version of McVeigh's 60 Minutes interview I happened to find this. Haha

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:26 am

I always find it heart breaking hearing about the families seeking answers

I don’t know this for a fact but I assume no answer will ever be enough

Look at Columbine. After 19 years, the depositions and Sues book the parents of the 13 victims are still not satisfied with the information:(

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:43 am

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So during my still ongoing hunt for the full uncut, unedited version of McVeigh's 60 Minutes interview I happened to find this. Haha

You see you didn't came back empty-handed! Very Happy

Are you sure there was even a published unedited version?
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:58 am

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So during my still ongoing hunt for the full uncut, unedited version of McVeigh's 60 Minutes interview I happened to find this. Haha

You see you didn't came back empty-handed! Very Happy

Are you sure there was even a published unedited version?


Hell who knows!? It's like looking for a needle in a haystack trying to find anything about McVeigh that hasn't been edited or cut.  I've been digging in archives and reading transcripts for fucking weeks. Mad

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:04 pm

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Are you sure there was even a published unedited version?
I found this days ago and never posted because I'm not sure if this is the right interview. The copyright date seems wrong but the name is right and it definitely seems to me that this recording includes at least part of the interview that Tim gave on 60 minutes before being executed.

You can only see a sample of the video (some academic institutions provide full access here and in other places or you can purchase access) but the transcript seems to be complete (15 minutes for part one and 14 minutes for part two).
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Even if this is the wrong interview, I am sure that it is available to view with a subscription somewhere.

If anyone is interested, there is another series that aired on MSNBC which includes recordings of audio tapes taken by his biographers during their interviews.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I always find it heart breaking hearing about the families seeking answers

I don’t know this for a fact but I assume no answer will ever be enough

Look at Columbine. After 19 years, the depositions and Sues book the parents of the 13 victims are still not satisfied with the information:(




Agreed. The letter the mother wrote was very forgiving in a sense. All she wanted was to know why. Sadly her questions were never answered. But truly what answer would be good enough? Sad

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Life asked Death, "Why do people love me, but hate you?"  Death responded, "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am a painful truth."

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Jeanne Kalogridis

I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other.
           -Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:57 pm

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It must be horrible being put to death by the country he was trying to save (in the wrong way).

He knew the stakes. Plus I'm pretty sure he would refer to the federal sevices as the "army of Babylon" or somesuch. He wasn't their friend, he knew they ain't his friends either. He knew he'd be facing the death penalty and I'm sure he believed the feds would kill him without blinking twice.

He was right on that last part.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:02 pm

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It must be horrible being put to death by the country he was trying to save (in the wrong way).

He knew the stakes. Plus I'm pretty sure he would refer to the federal sevices as the "army of Babylon" or somesuch. He wasn't their friend, he knew they ain't his friends either. He knew he'd be facing the death penalty and I'm sure he believed the feds would kill him without blinking twice.

He was right on that last part.

Yes, to him he was probably another feds' victim. But I wonder if he thought the American people supported him or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:04 pm

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I do recall that Ted compared Tim to Eric Harris, which isn't that far off the mark honestly (though Eric was quite a bit more of a trouble-maker than Tim).
As far as I can tell, that quote was actually from Ted's brother, David Kaczynski. It is misattributed on a number quote based websites (that generally don't bother to fact check anything) but based on what I've found by searching, the context is that David was quoted in some articles from May of 1999 discussing the fact that bomb-making instructions are available on the internet and that they were used in Columbine.

Quote :
David Kaczynski, the brother of convicted "Unabomber" Theodore Kaczynski, said easy access to bombmaking sites can turn good kids bad. "We're allowing every Eric Harris, every troubled kid out there, to become the next Tim McVeigh," Kaczynski said.

It seems like a bit of an exaggeration, especially considering how Eric's bombs turned out with the help of his internet bomb tutorials. Also, saying that access to bomb-making instructions turns good kids bad is almost as accurate as saying that assault rifles commit mass shootings.

Most online bomb making instructions are not good enough to wipe your rear end with. Most wannabie bombers will end up like Eric. This in no way means we should trivialize the potential danger. Because then some Breivik will pop up and detonate a large bomb killing numerous people.
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Bombs are a potent weapon for any spree shooter. The power of a spree shooter is the element of surprise and the fact taht he/she has all the time in the world to plan the attack. But the, the shooter cannot directly strike in more than one place at the same time - and that's where bombs come in.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:14 pm

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Bombs are a potent weapon for any spree shooter. The power of a spree shooter is the element of surprise and the fact taht he/she has all the time in the world to plan the attack. But the, the shooter cannot directly strike in more than one place at the same time - and that's where bombs come in.

Yeah, and even a bad and not powerful bomb can cause a lot of damage if it explodes near a crowd and create a panic reaction.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:57 am

The risk with bombs is that they can detonate prematurely, killing the perpetrator, or be useless, like Columbine and some ISIS bombs were.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:38 am

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The risk with bombs is that they can detonate prematurely, killing the perpetrator, or be useless, like Columbine and some ISIS bombs were.

During the 2015 Paris attack, at the Stade de France, 3 suicide bombers failed their plan. They exploded and killed only 1 person. They injured a dozen but none of them died. It means that 2 of the suicide bombers killed themselves only. The same happened that day at Boulevard Voltaire. A man detonated his suicide vest and killed himself only, but injured others. Sometimes I wish their was an afterlife so that they can see how failed their life and their attack was.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:12 am

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The risk with bombs is that they can detonate prematurely, killing the perpetrator, or be useless, like Columbine and some ISIS bombs were.

The trouble is that if a bomb fails, the shooter still has his rampage to go on. Bombs are an additional capacity.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:41 am

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The risk with bombs is that they can detonate prematurely, killing the perpetrator, or be useless, like Columbine and some ISIS bombs were.

The trouble is that if a bomb fails, the shooter still has his rampage to go on. Bombs are an additional capacity.

You really have to be determined or desperate to still do the rampage after a failed bombing (if nobody saw you yet). If it was me I would think: "Abort! Abort! In fact it won't go well, I'm a failure!".
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:26 am

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It must be horrible being put to death by the country he was trying to save (in the wrong way).

He knew the stakes. Plus I'm pretty sure he would refer to the federal sevices as the "army of Babylon" or somesuch. He wasn't their friend, he knew they ain't his friends either. He knew he'd be facing the death penalty and I'm sure he believed the feds would kill him without blinking twice.

He was right on that last part.


"I am sorry these people had to lose their lives. But that's the nature of the beast. It's understood going in what the human toll will be." —Timothy McVeigh

"Whether you wish to admit it or not, when you approve, morally, of the bombing of foreign targets by the U.S. military, you are approving of acts morally equivalent to the bombing in Oklahoma City." —Timothy McVeigh

"Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations." —Timothy McVeigh

"I have great respect for human life. My decision to take human life at the Murrah Building – I did not do it for personal gain. I ease my mind in that...I did it for the larger good." —Timothy McVeigh



McVeigh definitely knew the stakes involved in what he was doing. While I do believe he hated killing innocent people, he deemed it as a necessary action.  Also considering his military background, he was trained to view things in a certain way. A sort of tunnel vision so to say. He was taught to see things differently, to separate his own personal feelings from his mission goals.

What really gets me about the whole case is that Timothy McVeigh would have been giving the highest honors, and thought of as a hero had he bombed a government building in a Country that the U.S. considered a enemy. The death toll could have been thousands of people, hundreds upon hundreds of children, yet the media and our government would say "It was a necessary action, we are safer now, blah blah blah"

As I said before the Military trained McVeigh, turned him into someone who was capable of viewing a building full of people as merely collateral damage that would draw attention to the point he was trying to make.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:30 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Yes, to him he was probably another feds' victim. But I wonder if he thought the American people supported him or not.


I think he knew that some of his views were indeed inline with a lot of people's way of thinking.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:33 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The risk with bombs is that they can detonate prematurely, killing the perpetrator, or be useless, like Columbine and some ISIS bombs were.

The trouble is that if a bomb fails, the shooter still has his rampage to go on. Bombs are an additional capacity.

You really have to be determined or desperate to still do the rampage after a failed bombing (if nobody saw you yet). If it was me I would think: "Abort! Abort! In fact it won't go well, I'm a failure!".

Unfortunately, E&D's example proved otherwise. I'm not going to give any tips to potential shooters, so I'll just limit myself to an existing example:
Breivik. He set the bombs, then went to to shoot at Utoya. I'm not sure he would cancel the attack on Utoya if the bombs failed. Maybe he would and then just try again another day.  

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What really gets me about the whole case is that Timothy McVeigh would have been giving the highest honors, and thought of as a hero had he bombed a government building in a Country that the U.S. considered a enemy. The death toll could have been thousands of people, hundreds upon hundreds of children, yet the media and our government would say "It was a necessary action, we are safer now, blah blah blah"
Well that's the whole point isn't it? There was no war in Oklahoma City, he was not part of an army following orders and he bombed his own people. He didn't bomb a military target or a Saddam-like guy who was planning and commanding ennemy forces in the field. He killed a bunch of office workers and kids at a daycare center, a target without any real military value.

I don't think that was in his training.

Now if we were to view it as a military war action (and not terrorism) then it becomes even more simple. In taht case we have a US-citizen turned enemy combatant who attacks his own nation. This in turn makes him a traitor. No country would give  "highest honors" to a traitor, regardless of his military skill.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:28 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What really gets me about the whole case is that Timothy McVeigh would have been giving the highest honors, and thought of as a hero had he bombed a government building in a Country that the U.S. considered a enemy. The death toll could have been thousands of people, hundreds upon hundreds of children, yet the media and our government would say "It was a necessary action, we are safer now, blah blah blah"

Well that's the whole point isn't it? There was no war in Oklahoma City, he was not part of an army following orders and he bombed his own people. He didn't bomb a military target or a Saddam-like guy who was planning and commanding ennemy forces in the field. He killed a bunch of office workers and kids at a daycare center, a target without any real military value.

I don't think that was in his training.

Now if we were to view it as a military war action (and not terrorism) then it becomes even more simple. In taht case we have a US-citizen turned enemy combatant who attacks his own nation. This in turn makes him a traitor. No country would give  "highest honors" to a traitor, regardless of his military skill.

Yes it most certainly was in his training, to kill and not think about it. To follow orders and not question the right or wrong of it. Look at any war we have been involved in, how many people do you think were killed? How many soldiers do you think dropped bombs from planes, gunned down, sniped out, shelled building, etc. killing innocent people even though they hated it? Even though they knew there were probably innocent women and children being hurt and killed?  How many do you think only followed through because it was expected of them? Because it was what they had been trained to do?

In my opinion McVeigh only did on a relatively small scale what he knew the government actively does on a massive one. He actually said many times in different ways that he was following the rules of engagement that was deemed acceptable by his own government and the public in general.  

In McVeigh's thinking he was at war with his country, who he believed was at war with him. So he engaged the enemy with tactics he had been taught and considered the loss of life including the children as an unfortunate but necessary action.

An that is only if you believe the Lone Wolf theory. If you dig deeper into the case you will find significant evidence that suggests he was a Op working for the government. The FBI was well documented to have done A LOT of shady things in that regard. But that is a whole other ballpark to get into. So the truth on who the real traitor or traitors are in this case is still unknown.

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                                                                                                                                                                                      -Unknown

My heart has been so badly broken and mended again. Stronger than ever because of its dreadful wounds that I thought it could never break again. But at the sight of his face, at the knowledge that he was taking his leave forever, beyond death, it shattered.
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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:57 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Yes it most certainly was in his training, to kill and not think about it. To follow orders and not question the right or wrong of it.

I imagine there is quite a fair chance that the US army is more stupid than the Polish army. But not that stupid.

Here soldiers are taught to take initiative if needed. To think and plan ahead for themselves, especially when cut-off from command. Or if they find themselves in a situation where they would organize an underground resistance or partisan movement against an invader (admittedly a more likely situation for Poland than the US). We have traditions of that sort dating back long before the US revolution.
When in doubt, soldiers fall back on the basic principles and motto of the force, which is: "God, Honor, Fatherland". Protect the country and its people, uphold the honor and moral dignity of the force you serve.

Bombing your own civilians is the opposite of all that. I imagine it is not all that different in the US in that last respect.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Look at any war we have been involved in, how many people do you think were killed? How many soldiers do you think dropped bombs from planes, gunned down, sniped out, shelled building, etc. killing innocent people even though they hated it? Even though they knew there were probably innocent women and children being hurt and killed?  How many do you think only followed through because it was expected of them? Because it was what they had been trained to do?

Killing enemy soldiers or even collateral  death of enemy civilians during wartime is treated very differently than deliberately attacking your own civilians. No armed force in the world (ok, save maybe loony places like N.Korea) condones turning your arms against on your own nation, especially unarmed civilians.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In my opinion McVeigh only did on a relatively small scale what he knew the government actively does on a massive one. He actually said many times in different ways that he was following the rules of engagement that was deemed acceptable by his own government and the public in general.

I think he was trying to convince himself. He certainly fialed to convince me or most of his own comrades for that matter.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In McVeigh's thinking he was at war with his country, who he believed was at war with him. So he engaged the enemy with tactics he had been taught and considered the loss of life including the children as an unfortunate but necessary action.
The guys in Waco (who were hardly the most sane thinking guys out there) at least could try to claim they were at war because the government did send guys with fully automatics to their doors. Nobody came for McVeigh, nobody was at war with him. He was as free to live out his life in America as any other US ex-serviceman.

Thing is: I think he felt unable to accept the mediocrity of everything around him and his own. To use Eric's terms, McVeigh was unwilling to be just a "robot" who just floats down the "stream of life". He needed a grand, pure and illustrious cause. For some reason he decided that the anti-government preppers were that cause and he decided he's gonna be the grandest and most extreme of them all. And if 168 people have to die, then it is collateral damage that he is willing to nobly suffer for the grand, pure and illustrious cause.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
An that is only if you believe the Lone Wolf theory. If you dig deeper into the case you will find significant evidence that suggests he was a Op working for the government. The FBI was well documented to have done A LOT of shady things in that regard. But that is a whole other ballpark to get into. So the truth on who the real traitor or traitors are in this case is still unknown.
He had some helpers and followers, maybe including some officials that were not discovered. But I do not see any evidence suggesting that there was a high ranking government mole helping him out.

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PostSubject: Re: Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh   Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
The risk with bombs is that they can detonate prematurely, killing the perpetrator, or be useless, like Columbine and some ISIS bombs were.

I've also seen loads of plots that were disrupted because someone discovered the bombs or materials for them long before the plan was ready to be put into motion. Making bombs greatly increases the risk of being caught.

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