Unpopular opinions

As a mental health professional (MCSW) who works with and has training in high risk youth specifically, I second what [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said. It's impossible to diagnosis withiut having worked with the boys individually and even then it goes beyond a run of the mill diagnosis and you would need a specialist in adolescent psychiatry. One of the reasons such diagnoses aren't given out to patients under the age of 18 is that many individual  "signs" of psycho/sociopathy are also developmentally typical teenage behaviors.

I don't think bullying was the only, or even the main, cause of NBK. But I do think it contributed to what they did.

I think too many people make excuses for the bullying at Columbine by saying things like, "what do you expect, it's high school?"
My unpopular opinion is that this kind of attitude normalizes bullying. We've all just accepted that teenagers are going to be awful to each other because that's the way it's always been. Let's not bother to demand more of ourselves and of children, let's just let them duke it out Lord of the Flies style.

Obviously there is still a lot of work to be done regarding racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. but throughout history marginalized groups have taken a stand and made people reconsider how they were treated. It used to be normal for a black person to have to sit at the back of the bus. That's just how it was. Until one day, people started doing something about it. It used to be normal for the majority of women to be homemakers, with no opportunities to do anything else even if they wanted to. Until one day, people started doing something about it.
As a society we recognize that discriminating against people is wrong- morally, ethically, and legally.

There's nothing normal about intentionally hurting another person. Whether it be by ostracism, gossip, name-calling, or physical violence. We don't have to love or even get along with everyone we come in contact with, but making excuses for bullying behavior by saying things like "it's high school" or "kids are just mean" is simply a way of removing responsibility, like there is nothing that can be done about it.

Parents need to step up and teach their children respect for their fellow humans. They need to practice what they preach because kids model what they see. Schools need to be proactive about prevention and they need to make every incident of bullying that does happen a teachable moment.

Bullying isn't normal; having a wretched high school experience because of people being mean to you isn't normal. Being a jerk isn't normal.

<steps off soapbox>

I've got too many:

I think what happened was Plan A, not Plan B. I don't think they ever planned to shoot from the parking lot. I don't think they gave up on the bombs exploding until towards the end of the library massacre, when Eric says to go down to the commons and they shoot at the bombs.  I think they started shooting outside because they thought the bombs had gone off or were about to.

I think while outside Dylan shot only 3 times with the TEC-9 but wasted his two shotgun shells on people already shot because he was supposed to spray the exits with the TEC-9 when he got to the bottom of the stairs and the inside once they entered. I don't think it's because he only shot when Eric was looking or something.

I think they couldn't see the cafeteria until Dylan descended the stairs and thats why not before but after shooting he went to check on the bombs. I think they would not have started shooting outside and I think they would have shot at the bombs just like they did later had they thought they had failed. I think they took into consideration people running the other way, and that's one reason why they weren't out in the parking lot but could go either direction on the stairs, plus be shielded from the blast by starting at the top. I think they were supposed to enter the west entrance when people ran the other way, hence Dylan reports back to Eric quickly and they enter the school.

I think the 15 minutes of waiting to charge through the school Dylan mentions on the Basement Tapes is the 15 minutes estimated for people fleeing and getting shot before they realize they better turn around, and charging through the school is entering the west entrance to cut off their exit. Another 15 minutes until they turn around again and go back into the parking lot means there's ten more minutes until the car bombs explode.

I think many questions about the massacre are answered when you realize they were playing Doom IRL. Most shooters I would guess even if they take two guns only use one at a time, but not with Columbine, because they were doing it like an FPS switching between the stopping power of a shotgun and the speed of another weapon.

I think Dylan was the brains of the operation, and probably even the bomb tech guy. I think his coming up with the plan is why he got to wield the "AB-10"-like TEC-9 and "super shotgun". He was the sound engineer with the more complex car bomb and more pipe bombs left in his room. He checked on the bombs both outside and inside.

I think when they were bored with killing students it's because they were ready to go to the next level and kill cops, not because of remorse or getting more excitement out of shooting lockers. I think they roamed the halls looking for police. Nobody would predict that the cops would stay outside, yet people seem to act like they did when asking "Why did they roam the halls". I think again, the bombs are the only reason the cops weren't on their mind in the library. I think if they didn't think the library was going to explode, they wouldn't have said it was going to, and then they would not have told John Savage to run - they would've just avoided shooting him. Savage doesn't say it, but others say they told him to run because they were going to blow up the library.

I also suspect bombs are the chief reason the cops did not enter. Not because of protocol. Not because of confusion about the amount of shooters or hostages. The CNN report curiously makes a point of saying it was relayed to police at the school that the diversion bombs had motion detectors on them.

thelmar wrote:

There's nothing normal about intentionally hurting another person. Whether it be by ostracism, gossip, name-calling, or physical violence. We don't have to love or even get along with everyone we come in contact with, but making excuses for bullying behavior by saying things like "it's high school" or "kids are just mean" is simply a way of removing responsibility, like there is nothing that can be done about it.

Parents need to step up and teach their children respect for their fellow humans. They need to practice what they preach because kids model what they see. Schools need to be proactive about prevention and they need to make every incident of bullying that does happen a teachable moment.

Bullying isn't normal; having a wretched high school experience because of people being mean to you isn't normal. Being a jerk isn't normal.

<steps off soapbox>

You my friend, are a saint and a scholar.

AntiSocial-MasterDebater wrote:

You my friend, are a saint and a scholar.

Lol, thanks!

Gonna have to disagree. It's called pack mentality and is human nature. As with many species across this planet. You can't suppress human nature. I know we'd like to believe if we all were cheery and got along, then every thing would be butterflies, rainbows, and no more wars. But sorry, there's reality then there is fantasy.

I will agree that bullying isn't natural only in the sense that bullying is how we funnel our natural instincts as we have the intelligence to do so.

If you want to look at the natural side of things then we can do like our ancestors did and kill the weak, leave the outcasts to die on their own, and murder the mentally and physically handicapped. Establish an alpha male/female, and climbing the social ladder means fighting or dying/killing the person who is already there.

You can't suppress bullying because bullying is already the suppression of what comes naturally to us. No parent can prevent it, and it can't be completely done away with. All you can do is appropriately react when it does happen, and punish accordingly depending on the severity.

HanShotFirst wrote:

I will agree that bullying isn't natural only in the sense that bullying is how we funnel our natural instincts as we have the intelligence to do so.

If you want to look at the natural side of things then we can do like our ancestors did and kill the weak, leave the outcasts to die on their own, and murder the mentally and physically handicapped. Establish an alpha male/female, and climbing the social ladder means fighting or dying/killing the person who is already there.  

You can't suppress bullying because bullying is already the suppression of what comes naturally to us. No parent can prevent it, and it can't be completely done away with. All you can do is appropriately react when it does happen, and punish accordingly depending on the severity.

Unfortunately, a lot of schools are falling behind on the whole punishment thing. It seems the same thing happened at Columbine. If any of the bullies were star sports kids, they weren't punished at my school. It was more important that they got to play basketball and win the game, sadly.

hvernon wrote:

If any of the bullies were star sports kids, they weren't punished at my school. It was more important that they got to play basketball and win the game, sadly.

Rage fuel. IIRC schools have even covered up rapes to protect their Chads. Who cares if Chad rapes a girl, right guys? But god forbid one of the shy kids puts a toe out of line.

My unpopular opinion of Columbine is that I wish the school HAD been destroyed, but only when no innocents were inside. Like if the bombs had detonated after the students had been evacuated, I'd like that. The culture of bullying and Chad worship, all supported by the faculty and principal, was vile and had to go. IIRC one of Rocky Hoffschneider's minions later became a heroin addict to cope with the guilt. That alone makes it clear they did some pretty horrible things. Because NBK was a failure, Columbine students have said that it's "basically still the same."

Chad?? Isnt that the term "nice guys" use to describe guys who they think get all the women?

Kev7382 wrote:

Chad??  Isnt that the term "nice guys" use to describe guys who they think get all the women?

Yes!

What’s funny is I have an ex-boyfriend name Chad who was very tall and skinny and extremely awkward so when I hear Chad being used like that I laugh. I liked him but he definitely wouldn’t be considered a star athlete type beefcake. Which is fine because I don’t really like big muscles. I like the long lean and tall, light hair Or short, brown hair and stocky. Never fails. All my exes look like that. All guys i have had crushes on look like that

LOL the only Chad I knew was my pastor's son. And he was like 5'4" and maybe 100lbs soaking wet.

Kev7382 wrote:

Chad??  Isnt that the term "nice guys" use to describe guys who they think get all the women?

Chad is used to describe jocks and athletes, nice guy is used to describe someone who is socially awkward and has poor communication skills.

I feel like this may be considered a bit unpopular. In general I do get a little annoyed at kind of putting one victim over the other saying that one person’s death was more tragic than the others. Like everyone who reveres Kyle as some sort of ultra victim. Peiole think Dylan knew he had a learning disability and killed him...There is absolutely no proof of that. Everyone that died and witnessed all these things are innocent victims/survivors.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I feel like this may be considered a bit unpopular. In general I do get a little annoyed at kind of putting one victim over the other saying that one person’s death was more tragic than the others. Like everyone who reveres  Kyle as some sort of ultra victim. Peiole think Dylan knew he had a learning disability and killed him...There is absolutely no proof of that. Everyone that died and witnessed all these things  are innocent victims/survivors.

Absolutely. No one child deserves to be mourned more than the other one for any reason. All the victims are important. All the victims deserve mourning. All the victims deserve remembrance.

I've always said this but I'll say it again, Eric and Dylan weren't bullied to the extreme that the media and certain people made it out to be.

I think the bulk of Eric's rage came from many things including always being left out, being shut down by many girls, and people not wanting to befriend him, to name a few.
He even wrote about how people had his number but never called "the weird Eric kid"
I think the mixture of those things and maybe a few other things created a perfect storm so to speak.

I do believe he got some shit from the jocks, but it wasn't an everyday thing, or nearly as bad as some people have made it out to be.
Jocks weren't waiting at their cars day in and day out beating them up.

I think that a lot of his rage towards the jocks was due to in a sense, jealousy, and the bullying was just the icing on the cake.
The jocks had free reign of the school, never seemed to get reprimanded, were popular, and had all the beautiful girls.

At the end of the day, Eric just wanted to be accepted and treated as an equal.


I've always wondered why they let Evan Todd live. He was a jock that from what I understand did give them shit.

Maybe it was the whole "playing god" thing, or maybe it was because he wasn't the stereotypical Columbine jock with the prom queen girlfriend.
He was overweight, and wasn't the best looking guy, so maybe they had pity on him.

Who knows, all we can do is theorize.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I feel like this may be considered a bit unpopular. In general I do get a little annoyed at kind of putting one victim over the other saying that one person’s death was more tragic than the others. Like everyone who reveres  Kyle as some sort of ultra victim. Peiole think Dylan knew he had a learning disability and killed him...There is absolutely no proof of that. Everyone that died and witnessed all these things  are innocent victims/survivors.

Good point!!.My sister says there was a bit of 'trauma Olympics" (kind of like the oppression Olympics) post shooting around Littleton and at Columbine. Who waswhere, injured, victims families, etc. Trust Littleton to turn everything into a competition haha.

A long time ago I watched Amanda’s YouTube series about being a survivor of the library. She said on the I think it was the 10 anniversary the tone was pretty much if you weren’t an injured survivor or a family member of someone who died you were nonexistent

My unpopular opinion is that our society create those humans, and it will continue, guns laws or not...

Blame capitalism, consumerism,pornography, lack of discipline and morality everywhere, ect...not their parents, their not proven mental sickness or their proximity to weapons...

Where are all those chinese mass killers, by exemple?

Has there been a comprehensive study of where every mass shooter got their guns and what changed after, if anything?

I agree though, looking at just gun laws won't change many of the underlying problems.

I was watching Greys Anatomy last night and a character from Scotland's son was shot and he said "it only happened once in Scotland and then they changed the laws and it never happened again" but why? There has to be a difference between something in the culture. Something ingrained.

I think the difference is in the UK, we have a collective sense of morality and guns are not part of our national identity. If young children are being slaughtered on our doorstep then we feel a responsibility to stop it. Weapons manufacturers (for the domestic market) are not such a powerful lobby and there are not so many areas where you go hunting for sport. Children certainly don't grow up surrounded by guns.

That being said, gun control was a practical step but also not the only step taken. It is much harder for example to just walk into my son's primary school now than it was when I was young. All health care, including mental healthcare is accessible for free, although for various reasons ( funding & otherwise) the waiting lists are getting longer.

Also, I guess the thing about Thomas Hamilton is nobody is going to look at him and think "what a hero". The narrative of the teenage outcast(s) wreaking revenge against the school bullies or society is far different to the weirdo paedo who attacks tiny kids.

Pixie13 wrote:

I think the difference is in the UK, we have a collective sense of morality and guns are not part of our national identity. If young children are being slaughtered on our doorstep then we feel a responsibility to stop it. Weapons manufacturers (for the domestic market) are not such a powerful lobby and there are not so many areas where you go hunting for sport. Children certainly don't grow up surrounded by guns.

That being said, gun control was a practical step but also not the only step taken. It is much harder for example to just walk into my son's primary school now than it was when I was young.  All health care, including mental healthcare is accessible for free, although for various reasons ( funding & otherwise) the waiting lists are getting longer.

Also, I guess the thing about Thomas Hamilton is nobody is going to look at him and think "what a hero". The narrative of the teenage outcast(s) wreaking revenge against the school bullies or society is far different to the weirdo paedo who attacks tiny kids.

And it’s interesting you mention him because that’s almost how I look at the Sandyhook shooting and yet nothing happened after that.

I appreciate you sharing that information with me. I spoke to my friend from Australia who came to visit Colorado over the summer and we had a long talk over some beer about it too. She researches true crime and is a fellow writer.

I really also feel like the motivations behind every mass shooting are different. Some for notoriety, some to make a political statements etc.

Icarius wrote:

Where are all those chinese mass killers, by exemple?

I'd love to make a big list for you to go over - mass murder in China is way more common than most wpuld think. The big problem is that Chinese (state owned) media censors the names and photographs of all mass killers, in a misguided and ultimately futile attempt at puting "No Notoriety" in effect. This makes collecting data on Chinese mass murderers incredibly difficult while simultaneously doing little to actually stop.mass murder in a significant way.

I would be interested in talking about that. I studied business and PR in China several years ago (I was in Beijing, Xian and Shanghai) and I really agree with what you’re saying.

Maybe not an opinion, so much as a musing but we can't state for certain that Dylan had depression. My reason for saying this is although some of the writing he left behind do point to depression, if he wasn't diagnosed by a professional in his lifetime then it is not right to armchair diagnose him post-mortem. Just as it is not right when people declare Eric a psychopath.

Pixie13 wrote:

Maybe not an opinion, so much as a musing but we can't state for certain that Dylan had depression. My reason for saying this is although some of the writing he left behind do point to depression, if he wasn't diagnosed by a professional in his lifetime then it is not right to armchair diagnose him post-mortem. Just as it is not right when people declare Eric a psychopath.

Just because someone doesn't hasn't been diagnosed with an illness doesn't mean they don't have it.

I never said that Dylan *didn't* have depression, just that nobody can state for certain that he had it or that it was the reason he got involved in the shooting.

People rightly get annoyed at armchair psychiatrists diagnosing Eric but don't bat an eyelid when it is stated that Dylan had depression.

That’s an excellent point. Even Sue when it comes to Eric is all about his psychopathy and says you cannot diagnose anyone posthumously but then states the depression and stuff as fact.

I would like to know exactly how charming Eric actually was? Was he just a good student and polite or was he a young Ted Bundy?

His classmates didn’t describe him as charming ..

1. It was a mainly nihilistic fueled attack. There was no motive other than "life is pointless, it is never getting better. Fuck it, lets do this and at least we'll have a good time."

2. Eric has been painted as being much "tougher" than what he was actually like. The reality of Harris was that he was a scrawny, socially awkward, short, average looking guy. He has a couple pictures in which he looks good, however, in person he was much different. Photographs of just peoples heads give off a different feel than viewing them in person.

3. Copies of the basement tapes exist.

4. Eric died thinking he wouldn't be remembered and considered himself a failure. He was probably filled with immense embarrassment. I wouldn't doubt that he was thinking about all the journals and tapes he left behind. Specifically how he pretty much failed at doing everything he said he was going to do.

Well, very interesting discussions, here just a few random thoughts i have:

- Both did not [i]really overall[i] felt superior. They felt it in a few ways, yes, but ultimately they felt inferior/weaker and the whole "god"-thing was just teenage compensation.
- While both were depressed AND angry, i DO believe that in tendency (!) Eric was more homicidal and Dylan more suicidal.
- Deep inside, both sometimes had feelings/thoughts until days before NBK of abandoning the plan (Eric maybe a bit more, because IMO his urge to die wasn't as prevalent).
- The 20th anniversary to come will be exploited to sell books/documentaries/magazines by some.

Well, maybe not all is controversial or unpopular, but these are some thoughts i wanted to share

My opinion is that Craig Scott is full of shit. Idk I just don’t like the guy. It’s like he’s milking his own sister’s death!

vio1ette wrote:

My opinion is that Craig Scott is full of shit. Idk I just don’t like the guy. It’s like he’s milking his own sister’s death!

I think the entire family milks that poor girl's death. There have already been so many things disproven that her family continue to push. I understand grieving your own daughter, and perhaps believing she died a certain way is a way for them to accept her death. But they continue to push it in media having a movie made with all of these fake facts in it. I wish they would let Rachel rest in peace.

  

Screamingophelia wrote:

A long time ago I watched Amanda’s YouTube series  about being a survivor of the library. She said on the I think it was the 10  anniversary the tone was  pretty much if you weren’t an injured survivor or a family member of someone who died you were nonexistent

That hasn't changed. Not from where I'm standing.

Yumeko-chan wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

A long time ago I watched Amanda’s YouTube series  about being a survivor of the library. She said on the I think it was the 10  anniversary the tone was  pretty much if you weren’t an injured survivor or a family member of someone who died you were nonexistent

That hasn't changed.  Not from where I'm standing.

My friend has said something similar. She is a survivor as well

Screamingophelia wrote:

Yumeko-chan wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

A long time ago I watched Amanda’s YouTube series  about being a survivor of the library. She said on the I think it was the 10  anniversary the tone was  pretty much if you weren’t an injured survivor or a family member of someone who died you were nonexistent

That hasn't changed.  Not from where I'm standing.

My friend has said something similar. She is a survivor as well

It's very unfortunate the community reacts this way.

hvernon wrote:

vio1ette wrote:

My opinion is that Craig Scott is full of shit. Idk I just don’t like the guy. It’s like he’s milking his own sister’s death!

I think the entire family milks that poor girl's death. There have already been so many things disproven that her family continue to push. I understand grieving your own daughter, and perhaps believing she died a certain way is a way for them to accept her death. But they continue to push it in media having a movie made with all of these fake facts in it. I wish they would let Rachel rest in peace.

My sister, who was one if Rachel's best friends since childhood through high school, feels this way. Darryl was horrible to his family. He married Beth when she qas young and encouraged her to be his pastors wife instead of getting an education. Then he divorced her leaving her to support five children. He had no money because he refused to take jobs that were "beneath" him. He didn't spend much time with his children, Rachel was much closer to her stepfather Larry than Darryl. Them she dies and voila he can be a pastor of sorts.

I feel like its hard to judge him because he was still her father and she was killed so young in a horrible way amd Im sure he has guilt for not being as close to his family as he should have. But i do get where my sister is coming from. She knew Rachel wasnt close and wasnt a huge fan of her dad.

My sister said she'd be moritifed her death has been twisted this way. Most casual friends at school didnt even know she was personally Christian (most kids at Columbine come from church going Christian families so its kind of assumed) She hated Columbine and was planning on dropping out after the year was done.

milennialrebelette wrote:

hvernon wrote:

vio1ette wrote:

My opinion is that Craig Scott is full of shit. Idk I just don’t like the guy. It’s like he’s milking his own sister’s death!

I think the entire family milks that poor girl's death. There have already been so many things disproven that her family continue to push. I understand grieving your own daughter, and perhaps believing she died a certain way is a way for them to accept her death. But they continue to push it in media having a movie made with all of these fake facts in it. I wish they would let Rachel rest in peace.

My sister, who was one if Rachel's best friends since childhood through high school, feels this way. Darryl was horrible to his family. He married Beth when she qas young and encouraged her to be his pastors wife instead of getting an education. Then he divorced her leaving her to support five children.  He had no money because he refused to take jobs that were "beneath" him. He didn't spend much time with his children,  Rachel was much closer to her stepfather Larry than Darryl. Them she dies and voila he can be a pastor of sorts.

I feel like its hard to judge him because he was still her father and she was killed so young in a horrible way amd Im sure he has guilt for not being as close to his family as he should have. But i do get where my sister is coming from. She knew Rachel wasnt close and wasnt a huge fan of her dad.

My sister said she'd be moritifed her death has been twisted this way.  Most casual friends at school didnt even know she was personally Christian (most kids at Columbine come from church going Christian families so its kind of assumed) She hated Columbine and was planning on dropping out after the year was done.

I've always thought there was something weird about that family.
I've heard things here and there about Rachel's father being a sketchy person, and it's obvious that he is milking Rachel's death.
Even though I never knew Rachel, I always got the feeling that she would be pissed about how her parents milked her death.

I get that same feeling about Cassie, too.
People know her as the girl who was faked into being a martyr by her family.
Her family knew that the "she said yes" dialogue wasn't said by Cassie, yet they still knowingly released a book causing major scrutiny.
I feel like things like that taint the legacy of the victim.

I feel as she would of just rather been remembered for who she was, instead of having this fake hero narrative built into her legacy.

And it seems like no one talks about how brave Mr.Sanders was or how John confronted them...

I did read an article that Val mentioned she moved away for many reasons including that she was almost meant to feel bad about being the one that took that story away from Cassie because she’s the one that was asked and said yes.

Screamingophelia wrote:

And it seems like no one talks about how brave Mr.Sanders was or how John confronted them...

I did read an article that Val mentioned she moved away for many reasons including that  she was almost meant to feel bad about being the one that took that story away from Cassie because she’s the one that was asked and said yes.

Yeah poor Val she was a Lifeteen leader at Cabrini with my sister. She was up in Summit county as a social worker for awhile, married with kiddos. I know some of her younger siblings, poor girl went through hell.

milennialrebelette wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

And it seems like no one talks about how brave Mr.Sanders was or how John confronted them...

I did read an article that Val mentioned she moved away for many reasons including that  she was almost meant to feel bad about being the one that took that story away from Cassie because she’s the one that was asked and said yes.

Yeah poor Val she was a Lifeteen leader at Cabrini with my sister. She was up in Summit county as a social worker for awhile, married with kiddos. I know some of her younger siblings,  poor girl went through hell.

I honestly to this day still get tears in my eyes when number one I see the picture of Val on graduation day. And when I hear about how she was holding on to Lauren and she told her it was going to be OK.

Screamingophelia wrote:

And it seems like no one talks about how brave Mr.Sanders was or how John confronted them...

I did read an article that Val mentioned she moved away for many reasons including that  she was almost meant to feel bad about being the one that took that story away from Cassie because she’s the one that was asked and said yes.

Yeah I didn't even think about how that story must of made Val feel.

That is such a shitty situation to be in. It's like if you come out and say "Hey I said that not Cassie", it puts this burden on you like your taking away from her legacy.
But how can you stay quiet about something like that when you know it was all just a lie.
Damned if you do damned if you don't type of thing.

slippy123 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

And it seems like no one talks about how brave Mr.Sanders was or how John confronted them...

I did read an article that Val mentioned she moved away for many reasons including that  she was almost meant to feel bad about being the one that took that story away from Cassie because she’s the one that was asked and said yes.

Yeah I didn't even think about how that story must of made Val feel.

That is such a shitty situation to be in. It's like if you come out and say "Hey I said that not Cassie", it puts this burden on you like your taking away from her legacy.
But how can you stay quiet about something like that when you know it was all just a lie.
Damned if you do damned if you don't type of thing.

She couldn't win, you're right.

Sadly we do have "proof" we have the first part of the confrontation on the extended 911 call.

Screamingophelia wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

And it seems like no one talks about how brave Mr.Sanders was or how John confronted them...

I did read an article that Val mentioned she moved away for many reasons including that  she was almost meant to feel bad about being the one that took that story away from Cassie because she’s the one that was asked and said yes.

Yeah I didn't even think about how that story must of made Val feel.

That is such a shitty situation to be in. It's like if you come out and say "Hey I said that not Cassie", it puts this burden on you like your taking away from her legacy.
But how can you stay quiet about something like that when you know it was all just a lie.
Damned if you do damned if you don't type of thing.

She couldn't win, you're right.

Sadly we do have "proof" we have the first part of the confrontation on the extended 911 call.

Makes me wonder how that situation would of went down if the call wasn't recorded.

Given I think they planned for their victims turning around, I have to wonder how much Gardner is more of a hero than Sanders. Sanders told them to turn around, but they knew that would happen, and went to enter the west entrance. But they got into a gunfight, and didn't have too many to shoot when they entered, and seemed to miss everyone anyway.

In fact I wonder if that's the reason for the "shooting from the parking lot" myth in the first place. To wipe some egg off the face of Jeffco for Sanders death and let him be a martyr.

cakeman wrote:

Given I think they planned for their victims turning around, I have to wonder how much Gardner is more of a hero than Sanders. Sanders told them to turn around, but they knew that would happen, and went to enter the west entrance. But they got into  a gunfight, and didn't have too many to shoot when they entered, and seemed to miss everyone anyway.

In fact I wonder if that's the reason for the "shooting from the parking lot" myth in the first place. To wipe some egg off the face of Jeffco for Sanders death and let him be a martyr.

If you ask DeAngelis now, Sanders was a huge huge hero who took a bullet for him!

Which is amazing considering they were in opposite ends of the school...

Screamingophelia wrote:

Which is amazing considering they were in opposite ends of the school...

Well it must be a tiny school then! lololol

I have one unpopular opinion from the perspective of the researcher that might sound horrible and perhaps many would call me a bad person because of it.

The thing is that I am not at all interested in the stories of the victims. I don’t believe in fate or destiny and I’m not a believer so I don’t attach any fateful value to their deaths in terms of martyrs etc. They were just people who got in the way of the perpetrators, which is often the case with mass murders.

Of course, I feel terribly sorry for the victims, their friends and families, but I am only truly interested in the minds and motives of the perpetrators.

Eric and Dylan were both bullied and bullies themselves

Eric Harris was simply angry at everything, but Dylan Klebold seemed to genuinely hate the people around him toward the end of his life

One of them was gay for the other. I'm sorry, but you don't go out and kill people with your friend because he told you to