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 Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?

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NorThWest



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PostSubject: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:32 pm

In the 11k (first 100 pages IIRC), Patti and Lisa are interviewed. Lisa, Patti, and Patrick Ireland were the only ones in the library at the time of D&E's death (but Patrick was in and out if consciousness at the time and only remembers "coughing" [thought to be Dylan asphyxiating] before he crawled to the window).

I remember reading Patti saying that there were a few "loud bangs"; "enough to kill [the two library assistants that she ran into previously]". After the Rocky Mountain News article that claimed she heard them say "1,2,3!" before killing themselves, JeffCo interviewed her again to see if she said it/ had more information. She said she may have heard a bang, but didn't hear anyone come back into the library or say anything.

Lisa Kreutz heard "helicopters" and then "two or three bangs while the gunmen were in the library" (JCS00064).

My question is, have any of them come forward since then with more memories or information? I doubt they silently killed themselves, I wonder if there was a final conversation or at least some last words to eachother.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:34 pm

I don't recall, was Patti hunched down in that cabinet in the other room by the time that E&D killed themselves? If so she might not have been close enough to hear dialogue.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:41 pm

This has been speculated on and hotly debated for years. What if anything was said between Eric and Dylan is just one of those things we will probably never have a real answer to. Truth is no one knows either way.

The whole 123 countdown was denied by Patti herself later on. So the closest thing we have coming from E&D is the coughing that was supposedly heard.

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:03 pm

I was also wondering if the 911 call would have picked it up, or if the alarms were too loud.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:08 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I was also wondering if the 911 call would have picked it up, or if the alarms were too loud.

Considering the crappy 911 call that was released, which IS just a small portion of the full call. If anything was said it probably would be hard to hear or was drowned out by the other noises.

The full 911 call is on my Columbine wish list, second only to the basement tapes.

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I don't recall, was Patti hunched down in that cabinet in the other room by the time that E&D killed themselves? If so she might not have been close enough to hear dialogue.

Yes. She was in the other room in the cabinet at the time they shot themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:45 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I don't recall, was Patti hunched down in that cabinet in the other room by the time that E&D killed themselves? If so she might not have been close enough to hear dialogue.

Yes.  She was in the other room in the cabinet at the time they shot themselves.

That's what I was thinking, thanks for the clarification. I doubt she heard anything then given the distance, the cabinet door, and the alarms.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:18 pm

Patrick Ireland had heard coughing (Probably from D), so maybe he had heard it in someway. I would imagine he had seen the shooters bodies or seen a glimpse when he was crawling to the window
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:39 pm

I believe Patrick heard Dylan coughing. There’s a debate if he felt anything while he was dying. While I do have empathy for his family and for him in a way I wouldn’t shed a tear if he felt every agonizing moment.

I think Eric’s was really quick I don’t really think they talked... I just get the vibe that they didn’t


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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:58 pm

I wonder if they did the hand gesture for suicide they wrote down.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:25 pm

This is one of the great mysteries of Columbine. It could have been as simple as "I think I'm ready to go man" and "let's do this" or it could have been something a bit more profound. Given how simple their goodbye messages were I doubt that they said much at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:48 pm

I’ve read a lot of opinions on their body language on the cctv as they are going up the stairs. A lot of people say they just look done. It wasn’t what they thought it would be.

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I’ve read a lot of opinions on their body language on the cctv as they are going up the stairs. A lot of people say they just look done. It wasn’t what they thought it would be.

That's what I've always thought (not necessarily the part about the body language on the CCTV footage, though I can see the argument being made).
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:51 am

If the full 911 call is ever released we will at least be able to hear the gunshots, and know the exact time they killed themselves and how far apart the shots were. I personally think Eric didn't really say much, just sat down killed himself, and dylan took another 30 seconds before he pulled the trigger.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:10 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
If the full 911 call is ever released we will at least be able to hear the gunshots, and know the exact time they killed themselves and how far apart the shots were.


While I highly doubt the full call will ever be released, it would be nice to finally pinpoint as accurately as possible when E&D killed themselves, and how far apart. That very question has plagued a lot of us for years.

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:22 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
If the full 911 call is ever released we will at least be able to hear the gunshots, and know the exact time they killed themselves and how far apart the shots were.


While I highly doubt the full call will ever be released, it would be nice to finally pinpoint as accurately as possible when E&D killed themselves, and how far apart. That very question has plagued a lot of us for years.

Agreed. Not sure if crime scene 911 calls fall under the freedom of information act, but even if they did I feel JeffCo would say they have long been destroyed just like the basement tapes. I am very excited for the depositions, but sad at the fact that I can almost guarantee that will be the last "new" info we will ever get about columbine.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:46 pm

This is a stupid question, but what are the depositions??
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:54 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This is a stupid question, but what are the depositions??


These are the court documents where both the Harris and Klebold family were questioned in 2003. They are set for release in 2027. This is the ONLY time Eric's parents have talked about the incident publicly.

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''I have been astonished that men could die martyrs for religion—I have shuddered at it. I shudder no more—I could be martyred for my religion—Love is my religion—I could die for that.''                                                                                                                                      
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“Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish its source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds; it dies of weariness, of witherings, of tarnishings.”

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:12 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This is a stupid question, but what are the depositions??


These are the court documents where both the Harris and Klebold family were questioned in 2003. They are set for release in 2027. This is the ONLY time Eric's parents have talked about the incident publicly.

Off topic, but boy am I excited for those! I wanna know what the Harris family had to say.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:00 pm

Regarding to those who want to hear the full 911 call Patti Nielson made... the phone call ended 20 minutes after the call started. So, we actually wouldn't hear Eric and Dylan's suicide on this audio. The call ended before Eric and Dylan killed themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:42 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This is a stupid question, but what are the depositions??


These are the court documents where both the Harris and Klebold family were questioned in 2003. They are set for release in 2027. This is the ONLY time Eric's parents have talked about the incident publicly.

Off topic, but boy am I excited for those! I wanna know what the Harris family had to say.



Agreed! I want to hear what the Harris family had to say about Eric. How he was behaving in the months/days leading up to 4/20. I want to see if in hindsight they may have realized a red flag or two or Eric acting different that they didn't catch at the time. etc.

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''I have been astonished that men could die martyrs for religion—I have shuddered at it. I shudder no more—I could be martyred for my religion—Love is my religion—I could die for that.''                                                                                                                                      
                                                        -John Keats (1795-1821)

“Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish its source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds; it dies of weariness, of witherings, of tarnishings.”

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:13 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I believe Patrick heard Dylan coughing. There’s a debate if he felt anything while he was dying. While  I do have empathy for his family and for him in a way I wouldn’t  shed a tear if he felt every agonizing moment.

I think Eric’s was really quick I don’t really think they talked... I just get the vibe that they didn’t



I hate to disagree with you there.. I hate to see anyone suffering.. that maybe just me though.. I am really a big softy.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:21 am

Do you think after seeing the state of Eric's corpse after he shot himself that Dylan almost chickened out of shooting himself and contemplated surrendering to the police? Hence the "supposed" time difference between their suicides?

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:20 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do you think after seeing the state of Eric's corpse after he shot himself that Dylan almost chickened out of shooting himself and contemplated surrendering to the police? Hence the "supposed" time difference between their suicides?


In my honest opinion, no. Dylan had wanted to die for years, had talked about his own death as being something of a spiritual awakening. He thought or hoped his death would bring him peace, and in death he would finally get to be with his beloved Halcyon girl. So I don't think seeing Eric's body would have made him suddenly change his mind, if anything I feel it would have made him act quicker.  

As I said Dylan had longed for and talked about suicide for a very long time, yet had never attempted it to our knowledge. He needed something or someone to help him along that path. Eric provided the partner, and NBK provided the event that made him not be able to shy away from finally going through with it.

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“Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish its source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds; it dies of weariness, of witherings, of tarnishings.”

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:52 am

How many times did Dylan seriously write about suicide? I know that he wrote about it, but saying that the histrionic 14 year old that I was used to write about how I wished I could die and would be better off dead. I know the general consensus was that Dylan was the suicidal one, but really how serious was he about killing himself? Did he regularly self-harm or did he do it once or twice? Or were his suicidal thoughts just a way of blowing off steam?
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:41 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
How many times did Dylan seriously write about suicide? I know that he wrote about it, but saying that the histrionic 14 year old that I was used to write about how I wished I could die and would be better off dead. I know the general consensus was that Dylan was the suicidal one, but really how serious was he about killing himself? Did he regularly self-harm or did he do it once or twice? Or were his suicidal thoughts just a way of blowing off steam?


Dylan's journal and other bits of writings were peppered with his musing on suicide. Now whether he was truly suicidal is hard to tell.  Simply because he had never attempted to kill himself to our knowledge before 4/20.  Although in my opinion he was likely depressed and also suicidal.

I don't think Dylan was much of a cutter, his autopsy would have revealed heavy scarring etc. Also he very well could have used his writings to vent his frustrations.

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“Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish its source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds; it dies of weariness, of witherings, of tarnishings.”

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:27 pm

I haven't seen it in the 11k, but I've seen it said that Lisa heard "You in the library" around the time of the suicides.

She's also the one who reported "Are you with me?" or something similar. She says it was when they entered the first time, but Krabbe says it wasn't because nobody else reported that, and so assumes it was the second time they entered and referenced the suicide.

Interestingly enough, the library witnesses I recall seem to be pretty solid that Dylan walked into the library first, not Eric. So, the "are you with me" being Eric to Dylan after Dylan shot so few times outside, and being the reluctant follower or whatever, is probably false.   Given that Dylan seemed more suicidal, checked on the bombs while outside, and went closer to the bombs than Eric ever did on the CCTV, his entering first, if true, increases my suspicion that they felt the bombs were going to explode and drop the library during the library massacre.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:27 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I was also wondering if the 911 call would have picked it up, or if the alarms were too loud.
Pretty sure the call was dropped long before the suicide.
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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:59 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I was also wondering if the 911 call would have picked it up, or if the alarms were too loud.
Pretty sure the call was dropped long before the suicide.

I think you’re right I think the phone cut off around quarter to 12

I remember reading that the actual phone call was about a half hour which would take it to about 11:50 am or so

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PostSubject: Re: Have Patti Nielsen/ Lisa Kreutz/ Patrick I. ever spoken about the suicides?   Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:07 pm

Haven't the police reports always been kind of vague about the time of the suicides? Saying stuff like "between (this minute) and (that minute)" or "sometime around X, Y or Z"? I would assume that if the full unreleased call provided conclusive evidence of the exact time that E&D killed themselves the police would have provided that detail a long time ago.
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