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 For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 7:41 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
Lizpuff wrote:


Also for mental help- it cannot be forced.  You force someone that doesn't want help to see a therapist or take meds and they push back even more.  I think Eric's therapist was terrible but putting that aside, Eric obviously didn't want the help.  He lied his way thru and his therapist was none the wiser.  

Same with Dylan. He needed help and he refused. Sue even said if they forced him to go Dylan would have been  capable of sitting in silence the whole time

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Very true. If someone doesn't want help then there is nothing you can really do. Its not like you can force them to get help. You can beg and cry, but if they still see nothing wrong with themselves, their actions,  or truly don't want to change then that's just it. No


Exactly. In private Dylan was struggling but was so gifted growing up and felt like he was smart and self reliant and that turned into a superiority complex then his feelings that were similar to Eric’s.... something about that friendship was the ultimate toxic friendship

His whole “when did this entity take over Dylan?” Makes me sad. He was 15 I think when he write that.

Again very true. I think Dylan was fully aware that he was slipping, that things so weren't OK. But he just couldn't bring himself to admit that he needed help. No
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 9:37 pm

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
I think Dylan was fully aware that he was slipping, that things so weren't OK. But he just couldn't bring himself to admit that he needed help. No


Or maybe he felt that he was beyond help, or that it wouldn't work out, or that he was better off without it.

I think Dylan was always putting the problems he had on the shoulders of others.

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Screamingophelia
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 9:50 pm

I don't think they knew though, he seemed to be good at hiding it. Except with Zach. I would love to hear from Zach one day but I think we will hear from Eric's parents before that happens...

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 10:02 pm

Lizpuff wrote:
 I think Eric's therapist was terrible but putting that aside, Eric obviously didn't want the help.  He lied his way thru and his therapist was none the wiser.  

I'm not 100% convinced of this. I have no doubt he never mentioned NBK or what he was planning. But he did indicate on his Diversion Intake Assessment a ton of the issues he was having with anger, insecurity, depression, feelings of suicide, etc. And in his journal he wrote, "my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry"
I think Eric was talking to Albert about some stuff and instead of providing Eric with the tools to work on his problems, Albert's solution was to try to medicate him to blunt his feelings. I'm not saying that anti-depressants don't work, only that they have to be used in conjunction with behavioral therapy, as well, and that takes effort on the part of both the patient and the doctor. If Albert's reviews are a true reflection of his skills as a therapist, drugging his patients was probably the "easy" way of treating them, rather than actually encouraging them to work on themselves and giving them the means to do it.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Dec 14, 2018 2:31 am

I've read Dr Albert's reviews and they are pretty grim (although many of them seem involved in custody cases, which are fraught with emotion), but the fact remains that Eric Harris had access to mental healthcare, with the best will in the world you can't ensure everyone who sees a mental health professional will be seeing the best one available. Kevin Harris seemed very thorough, there was more than one doctor on the list, I would be surprised if he sent his son to a doctor with a terrible reputation.
I do think though, if Eric had seen a doctor who really listened to him, who showed enough interest in him and worked to help resolve his feelings of isolation and self-loathing (which I truly believe was brought on by bullying), then perhaps Columbine would not have happened.
I still see it as a triangle: mental health, access to guns and social inclusion/acceptance. You need to work on all three at once to reduce mass shootings.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Dec 14, 2018 9:16 am

I still think if people were more open minded, accepting and friendly even if people had mental issues, they wouldn't necessarily resort to violence against the people that were friendly to them. In this instant access to guns seems irrelevant to me.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Dec 14, 2018 11:32 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
I don't think they knew though, he seemed to be good at hiding it. Except with Zach. I would love to hear from Zach one day but I think we will hear from Eric's parents before that happens...

Very true.
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thelmar

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 17, 2018 10:53 pm

Ok, as a rule I don't go looking for Columbine victims or former students on social media because I believe that they deserve their privacy and to be able to move forward with their lives. They don't need me or anyone else interested in this case trying to track them down.

But...for some inexplicable reason tonight I just felt compelled to look for someone who was mentioned in the 11k as having been particularly abusive towards Eric. I found him and was struck by the fact that his Facebook cover photo is of Bill and Ted with the caption "Be excellent to each other."

This is either a sad irony or his experience with the attack taught him something important about how to treat other people. I am choosing to believe the latter, for no other reason than because I was looking for something positive that could have been learned from this tragedy and something drew me to break a long held rule not to go snooping on those affected by Columbine. I'm not a mystic but I don't feel like it was an accident I was "led" to this particular person's page.

(I know you guys will understand why I am not publicly naming this person).
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 8:23 am

thelmar wrote:
Ok, as a rule I don't go looking for Columbine victims or former students on social media because I believe that they deserve their privacy and to be able to move forward with their lives. They don't need me or anyone else interested in this case trying to track them down.

But...for some inexplicable reason tonight I just felt compelled to look for someone who was mentioned in the 11k as having been particularly abusive towards Eric. I found him and was struck by the fact that his Facebook cover photo is of Bill and Ted with the caption "Be excellent to each other."

This is either a sad irony or his experience with the attack taught him something important about how to treat other people. I am choosing to believe the latter, for no other reason than because I was looking for something positive that could have been learned from this tragedy and something drew me to break a long held rule not to go snooping on those affected by Columbine. I'm not a mystic but I don't feel like it was an accident I was "led" to this particular person's page.

(I know you guys will understand why I am not publicly naming this person).

Most of the people involved are 35 and older now so I would like to think that age has given them wisdom. I hope that they actually believe what is in that photo instead of just using it for the Bill and Ted nostalgia

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 8:31 am

I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 9:30 am

thelmar wrote:
Lizpuff wrote:
 I think Eric's therapist was terrible but putting that aside, Eric obviously didn't want the help.  He lied his way thru and his therapist was none the wiser.  

I'm not 100% convinced of this. I have no doubt he never mentioned NBK or what he was planning. But he did indicate on his Diversion Intake Assessment a ton of the issues he was having with anger, insecurity, depression, feelings of suicide, etc. And in his journal he wrote, "my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry"
I think Eric was talking to Albert about some stuff and instead of providing Eric with the tools to work on his problems, Albert's solution was to try to medicate him to blunt his feelings. I'm not saying that anti-depressants don't work, only that they have to be used in conjunction with behavioral therapy, as well, and that takes effort on the part of both the patient and the doctor. If Albert's reviews are a true reflection of his skills as a therapist, drugging his patients was probably the "easy" way of treating them, rather than actually encouraging them to work on themselves and giving them the means to do it.

Not that I know or have worked with Dr. Albert but I have my MCSW and work with at risk youth and just to throw out another perspective, in the 90s a lot of the side effects about psych meds, especially for adolescents, weren't nearly as widely known. Columbine did bring some awareness to the issue. But yeah just throwing that out there...
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 9:34 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 9:38 am

milennialrebelette wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.

Yes! I have a friend who was a senior at the time (she is a survivor as well) and she said she was sure she was a jerk and she hung out with people who were bullies but she was a kid and has really learned from everything.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 11:48 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
milennialrebelette wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.

Yes! I have a friend who was a senior at the time (she is a survivor as well) and she said she was sure she was a jerk and she hung out with people who were bullies but she was a kid and has really learned from everything.

Are you getting at that teen bullies are bullies because they are just stupid? or that they are so self absorbed in being accepted that they do anything to anyone to fit in? Honestly that sounds very stupid to me.

I love how bullies grow old and then they feel remorseful, like that make everything better, it doesn't. I've known people that their lives were destroyed by bullies, saying sorry to someone that you've programmed them to think they are worthless aren't ever going to find closure in that, especially after years after the bullying that affected their life negatively.

Why aren't people genuinely nice to others in young ages? Bad parenting?

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 12:11 pm

I was bullied pretty horrendously. From the stories I’ve heard about Eric and Dylan I was definitely bullied a lot worse than them and I didn’t have friends. I don’t think I’ve thought about it enough yet. When it comes to my own bullying. I was just thinking of the few people that I’ve heard from and spoken to. So I haven’t really thought about why kids hands up like that. Because there are a lot of nice kids out there. And there are in general people no matter what age that are aaa holes

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 1:06 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
I was bullied pretty horrendously. From the stories I’ve heard about Eric and Dylan I was definitely bullied a lot worse than them and I didn’t have friends. I don’t think I’ve thought about it enough yet. When it comes to my own bullying. I was just thinking of the few people that I’ve heard from and spoken to. So I haven’t really thought about why kids hands up like that. Because there are a lot of nice kids out there. And there are in general people no matter what age that are aaa holes

I agree, at any age there are going to be assholes out there trying to bring you down, but it sucks when people get bullied at a young age before their mind actually has a chance to see whats out there beyond the school clicks
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 3:01 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.
I wonder if Evan Todd was bullied himself? because that would explain why he bullied others. When Evan Todd also said when they pointed a gun at him and he told them "i've had no problem with you guys", he was covering his own a**.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 3:12 am

milennialrebelette wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.
Well, I mean she can't go back in time and change it now.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 6:59 am

From what I've heard after shootings there was no bullying at Columbine for days but went back again to old ways.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 10:39 am

That is very true and has been talked about several times. The simple fact that 15 people dying wasn't enough to completely change that fucking school and the kids in it speaks volumes. Evil or Very Mad
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 11:41 am

I'm going to defend Columbine for a little here (shocking I know!)  Yes theres still some bullying, but what would you expect in a single building with almost 2,000 teenagers?

Don't get me wrong, there's no doubt prior to the shooting there was some really egregious inexcusable behavior, mostly directly from Rocky and his cronies.

But for all the other kids who were just normal kids, nice to some people, not as nice to others, getting along with some cliques but not others, being part of a certain group, etc. this doesnt mean they were bad people who deserved what happened. That's my biggest pet peeve with the whole discussion of bullying, like somehow what happened at Columbine is just rewards. That and not all adults who have grown and matured should be held to how they acted as teens, it's already sad how many people dont seem to mature as adults from their teenage years,  growth and maturity should be encouraged.

Eric and Dylan were bullied but also did some bullying of their own. That's the same as most kids at Columbine and everywhere else. Almost no one is 100% either way.. I think with bullying you're talking about regular teenager learn to get along with and around your peers and the world all the way to the straight up abuse and harassment that Rocky and his ilk committed. That kind of stuff didn't happen when I was at Columbine, theres definitely been a conscious effort to prevent that kind of behavior since 1999. Student Senate does a Day Without Hate every year in April and theres still efforts to have a more respectful environment. Theres a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harassment that I saw used, one star basketball player got benched during playoffs because of some nasty online comments he made ky senior year. Pre shooting I dont think that would have happened.

The normal teenage stuff does still happen, 2,000 hormonal teenagers aren't always going to get along or like one another. I went to two high schools, one 100% Native/Pacific Islander, 100% free and reduced lunch etc  the other Columbine almost 100% white, middle to upper middle class, etc. Both had bullying of some form. Its one thing that transcends other differences.

But I think Columbine did learn something and the school and community are still trying to apply those lessons, it's just people aren't perfect. Theres always better that can be done but its not something they're completely blind to.

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 11:49 am

milennialrebelette wrote:
I'm going to defend Columbine for a little here (shocking I know!)  Yes theres still some bullying, but what would you expect in a single building with almost 2,000 teenagers?

This is very true. There will ALWAYS be some form of bullying going on. AND I am also one that does believe E&D did bully others just as they were bullied. It's the trickle down effect.


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I've been bullied for almost all of my life and I've never picked on others because of it. I think the fact that people here are defending bullying and trying to justify it by saying it's "normal" is absolutely disgusting.

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No what I'm trying to say is my sister and my brother and all their friends didn't deserve to get shot at and killed because of bullying. That as adults with families of their own now they can grow and change.

I work with at risk youth and for my masters had to do a lot of research on youth socialization. I'll find the exact study but it's very common for teens to believe that while they're picked on they don't pick on others, however in the same social circle theres people who believe they're picked on/bullied by the person/persons who think theyre bullied not bullies. These studies also show how as part of the developmental stage teens are at, how bullying comes about, as teens start to develop their own independent sense of self and navigate peer groups outside their families, all mixed up with surging hormones.

When I say it's normal I'm in no way saying it's acceptable, okay or good. I apologize if I wasn't clear with my meaning, I'm using more sociology terms.

I think Columbine did bring a lot of attention to teen social dynamics in a good way, unfortunately we still have a lot of work to do, both as adults, teens and with the two groups working together.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 1:05 pm

milennialrebelette wrote:
No what I'm trying to say is my sister and my brother and all their friends didn't deserve to get shot at and killed because of bullying. That as adults with families of their own now they can grow and change.

I work with at risk youth and for my masters had to do a lot of research on youth socialization. I'll find the exact study but it's very common for teens to believe that while they're picked on they don't pick on others, however in the same social circle theres people who believe they're picked on/bullied by the person/persons who think theyre bullied not bullies. These studies also show how as part of the developmental stage teens are at, how bullying comes about, as teens start to develop their own independent sense of self and navigate peer groups outside their families, all mixed up with surging hormones.

When I say it's normal I'm in no way saying it's acceptable, okay or good. I apologize if I wasn't clear with my meaning, I'm using more sociology terms.

I think Columbine did bring a lot of attention to teen social dynamics in a good way, unfortunately we still have a lot of work to do, both as adults, teens and with the two groups working together.

Hi! I know this will be speculation and we can’t diagnose anything post Mortem But if you encountered Eric and Dylan right now in your profession, would they be considered at risk? Based on all the things that happened before. The arrest, the writings etc

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 1:53 pm

Imo bullying has something to do with parenting.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 2:58 pm

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
That is very true and has been talked about several times. The simple fact that 15 people dying wasn't enough to completely change that fucking school and the kids in it speaks volumes. Evil or Very Mad

Bad habits die hard I suppose.

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 6:39 pm

Millenial, I don't want to accuse you of defending bullying, but it sounds like you are. Do you think its fair 2 kids got picked on just for wearing trench coats? I don't think so.

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 10:17 pm

bradt93 wrote:
Millenial, I don't want to accuse you of defending bullying, but it sounds like you are. Do you think its fair  2 kids got picked on just for wearing trench coats? I don't think so.

I don't think she was defending bullying. I think what she was trying to convey regarding that particular study was that because of the way the minds of teens work/ are developing, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might feel that he is the victim of bullies but that he does not bully others. But, if you ask Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], who is in the same peer group, he might say that, in fact, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the bully.
In other words, these teens might not perceive their own actions as being equivalent to bullying even if, in someone else's perception it actually is bullying.

I can see this as being accurate, to an extent. In the same way that I think that sometimes the severity of bullying relies on the perception of the victim. For example, Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might think that they are not being bullied badly because they are not being beaten up, they are "just" being verbally taunted. But Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might find verbal taunting every bit as painful as a physical beating.
There is the truth and then there is each individuals' perception of the truth. These things don't always/often match exactly and maybe that study is suggesting that during the psychosocial development of teenagers, the reality vs. perception of reality is even more skewed than it is in adults.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 20, 2018 11:14 am

thelmar wrote:
bradt93 wrote:
Millenial, I don't want to accuse you of defending bullying, but it sounds like you are. Do you think its fair  2 kids got picked on just for wearing trench coats? I don't think so.

I don't think she was defending bullying. I think what she was trying to convey regarding that particular study was that because of the way the minds of teens work/ are developing, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might feel that he is the victim of bullies but that he does not bully others. But, if you ask Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], who is in the same peer group, he might say that, in fact, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the bully.
In other words, these teens might not perceive their own actions as being equivalent to bullying even if, in someone else's perception it actually is bullying.

I can see this as being accurate, to an extent. In the same way that I think that sometimes the severity of bullying relies on the perception of the victim. For example, Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might think that they are not being bullied badly because they are not being beaten up, they are "just" being verbally taunted. But Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might find verbal taunting every bit as painful as a physical beating.
There is the truth and then there is each individuals' perception of the truth. These things don't always/often match exactly and maybe that study is suggesting that during the psychosocial development of teenagers, the reality vs. perception of reality is even more skewed than it is in adults.

Thank you that's exactly what quite a few studies have shown in regards to bullying.

The other point is that bullying comes about from the developmental stage teens are at. As they try to form independent identities but are also at a stage where peer relationships are important as they try to navigate the world around them independent of their families, all combined with hormones and brains that aren't finished developing, bullying comes about.

Also I'm talking about bullying like gossiping, ignoring people, developing cliques. The kind of abusive aggressive physical stuff that was seen at Columbine that Rocky and his ilk committed pre shooting is a totally different situation theres no developmental explanation for that,

However as I've stated numerous times this doesn't make it okay, right or acceptable in any form. I'll keep repeating this as much as I have to if people keep missing it and think I'm somehow defending bullying because I promise I'm not. I do not think bullying is okay or should happen just explaining why for the most part it does.

But its important to look at how and why bullying comes about so that things can be done to help prevent it and replace negative behaviors with positive ones. If you look at the most common forms of bullying as only a moral failing or something similar it's a lot harder to work on proactive solutions in my experience. And my experience is working with high risk youth with my LCSW.

I hope that makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2018 3:33 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
milennialrebelette wrote:
No what I'm trying to say is my sister and my brother and all their friends didn't deserve to get shot at and killed because of bullying. That as adults with families of their own now they can grow and change.

I work with at risk youth and for my masters had to do a lot of research on youth socialization. I'll find the exact study but it's very common for teens to believe that while they're picked on they don't pick on others, however in the same social circle theres people who believe they're picked on/bullied by the person/persons who think theyre bullied not bullies. These studies also show how as part of the developmental stage teens are at, how bullying comes about, as teens start to develop their own independent sense of self and navigate peer groups outside their families, all mixed up with surging hormones.

When I say it's normal I'm in no way saying it's acceptable, okay or good. I apologize if I wasn't clear with my meaning, I'm using more sociology terms.

I think Columbine did bring a lot of attention to teen social dynamics in a good way, unfortunately we still have a lot of work to do, both as adults, teens and with the two groups working together.

Hi! I know this will be speculation and we can’t diagnose anything post Mortem But if you encountered Eric and Dylan  right now in your profession, would  they be considered at risk? Based on all the things that happened before. The arrest, the writings etc

Hmmm that is an excellent question!

I've mostly worked with inpatient at-risk teenage girls. For my internship during my masters program I started working for Hawai'i Office of Youth Services, so girls that are in the criminal justice system. They're almost all PoC, mostly kanaka maoi (Native Hawai'ian) girls like myself, Many are pregnant and/or have children. They come from abusive homes, both from where they grew up and the relationships they've gotten into. They get put into the system for things like petty theft, possession of various drugs, etc.

I stayed at the safe house after I graduated for almost two years before I came back to Colorado. I recently got a certificate for substance abuse counseling at Metro. I know have been working with a little less high risk group oat two of the schools for the Deaf on the front range. These students, other than their disabilities, are closer to I think how Eric and Dylan could have potentially been helped. I'm not a psychiatrist/doctor/qualified to give a mental health diagnosis, but just based on the kids I've worked with and what I've learned about Eric and Dylan. Also since Eric and Dylan aren't representative of the kids I usually end up working with, even when they were in the criminal justice system, they weren't sent to any juvenile detention centers or inpatient programs like teens who are less well off and PoC might be, so I'm just going to hypothesize as if they were in one of the inpatient programs I've worked in, if that makes sense. I can also compare it to how I've seen the system in action, which explains why JeffCo let Dylan andEric off so easily.

Starting with Dylan I hate to agree with Cullen here but he obviously was very depressed. I'm really shocked that his screening for his diversion did not pick this up and require mental health treatment as a condition of his program.I don't know if it was the case back in 1999 but Colorado now has laws that all juvenile must undergo a complete mental health screening when they are charged with a crime.60-70% of all juveniles who face any sort of criminal charges have some sort of mental health disorder. If he (and Eric) slipped through the cracks in JeffCo I'm not surprised. In addition to the bias in juvenile justice systems based on race and socioeconomic status, It's a HUGE county and it's full of independent type republicans who don't want to pay'taxes for anything and it's been resulting in understaffed programs, no money for roads schools, etc. It's kind of a mess.

But anyway back to Dylan, I'd personally see him as a high risk. I could see how JeffCo wouldn't though especially compared to a lot of the other juveniles the JeffCo office encounters (since there's the inner ring suburb of Lakewood and surrounding areas also in the county, and they have more traditional high risk kids, PoC,, low income, scattered families, gang influence, etc.) His substance abuse is a major red flag, it's not traditional teen experimentation but from what I've seen, pretty heavy/escalating dependence to deal with strong negative emotions. Add his reported bursts of anger from his parents, after periods of calm, and that goes hand in hand with the substance abuse as a problem. He had problems with his school work, which is another thing we look at for youth at risk, especially compared to their highest level of achievement (to make sure it's not a learning disability and or academic issue). Grades/schoolwork shows a lot more than just academic achievement, it shows if the youth can apply themselves, look at their future in a positive way, set goals, function well within social boundaries and expectations, etc. Slipping grades in a youth along with other red flags often shows a developing problem, Dylan is a prime example. His parents and others also reported how his hygiene seemed to deteriorate (greasy hair, not showering, dirty clothes) that's a major red flag for mental health problems for teens and adults. Combine all this together and I'd see Dylan as a high risk individual.

However with youth we also factor in their family/home environment when we assess them. This is why, to me, someone like Dylan who has almost every red flag except a history of violent crime and gang involvement, can be treated as a much lower risk. His family is intact, meaning he has both his mother and father together at home. They also have a home of their own, they're not homeless or transient, and they're both gainfully employed and financially secure. There's no history of violence or substance abuse from his immediate family, no known and easy access and or exposure to drugs or weapons.. They're both incredibly supportive.Since family, if at all possible, is such a major part of working with high risk youth, Dylan (and Eric to a slightly lesser, but not much, extent) both have very low risk family and home environments. This would be why diversion, which was looked at since the break in was seen as their first crime and non violent, was ultimately allowed. If they had high risk families, other options probably would have been looked at, likely community corrections or some other youth center.

Now Eric on the other hand, is harder to make an assessment of. He seems more open about his problems to authority figures but to differentiate if that was him actually trying to get help or just manipulate people requires a much higher level o expertise than I have. His anger does raise some red flags,I'd be concerned however most of it, at least that was seen before the shooting, was in writing. There's a fine line between what we encourage teens to do and express their anger in a non destructive way. Journaling would be a great example of this. I'd be a little more concerned if I had knowledge of him breaking Brooks' windshield and/or any other of the supposed outbursts he had. Eric doesn't seem to abuse substances like Dylan and his grades and classroom behavior are much, much better. The only thing that Eric would have as a slightly higher risk to me than Dylan is his dad's military service and how that effects the family environment. His dad didn't seem quite as willing to see a problem was there as Dylan's parents, in his defense though Eric didn't seem to show that there was a problem as much as Dylan. Still, his reluctance to see Eric's problems and do what it takes to help would be a little bit of a problem. The only other thing that would make Eric high risk would be the results of his mental health eval which he should of had done but didn't.

I hope this answers your question! It's hard to hypothesize in hindsight from a distance, but definitely an interesting challenge!
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2018 5:52 pm

Wouldn't the anger out burst be part of his depression, as I have seen on suicide prevention afsp that as sign of potential suicide is rage.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2018 9:39 pm

rebel2013 wrote:
Wouldn't the anger out burst be part of his depression, as I have seen on suicide prevention afsp that as sign of potential suicide is rage.

That's a great point and definitely true when you're specifically doing a suicide assessment. The assessment I posted was a more general assessment I would do when first working with a juvenile for overall risk assessment, usually when a juvenile first enters the criminal justice system or a similar situation.

Since in Colorado all youths now must have a complete mental health assessment done as well so if suicide risk came up it would be there. That's done by a psychiatrist hopefully one with a background working with adolescents. I'm only a LCSW so that is bit above my qualifications. But later while working with one of my youths, and suicide risk came up I'd definitely look at any anger issues as a potential risk in that regard.

And again this is all hypothesizing, I'd never actually assess someone I had never worked with in peraon.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Sep 19, 2019 5:14 pm

AlteRoad wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
Actually, I seem to remember he did say that they werent bullied. But maybe Im confusing hes words with that of Andrew Gumbel. He does say, howewer, that it wasnt retaliation over bullying. I agree, cause we will ignore everything else about EH by simply looking at bullying. Bullying can really be a damaging factor if taken to the extreme. Take the example of the syrian refugee that recently recorded an attack by hes racist bully. Where hed been severely beaten simply because he came from Syr
He didn't record it, someone else did. Also, there's no evidence that he was bullied because he was Syrian. Also, I imagine pushing, shoving and pouring water on someone is common in most countries, going by the kind of footage I've seen from countries like America, Russia, China and India. I know stuff like that (and far worse) was extremely common at schools I went to.
Old, but it's somehow just a coincidence that the bully's Facebook profile had EDL propaganda on it?
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Sep 19, 2019 5:55 pm

InsaneIntruder wrote:
AlteRoad wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
Actually, I seem to remember he did say that they werent bullied. But maybe Im confusing hes words with that of Andrew Gumbel. He does say, howewer, that it wasnt retaliation over bullying. I agree, cause we will ignore everything else about EH by simply looking at bullying. Bullying can really be a damaging factor if taken to the extreme. Take the example of the syrian refugee that recently recorded an attack by hes racist bully. Where hed been severely beaten simply because he came from Syr
He didn't record it, someone else did. Also, there's no evidence that he was bullied because he was Syrian. Also, I imagine pushing, shoving and pouring water on someone is common in most countries, going by the kind of footage I've seen from countries like America, Russia, China and India. I know stuff like that (and far worse) was extremely common at schools I went to.
Old, but it's somehow just a coincidence that the bully's Facebook profile had EDL propaganda on it?

No. Thats probably why he bullied the fuck out of him, too.

And bullying is bullying no matter how people slice and dice it. If he got hit punched and abused repeatedly at school and he couldnt stand up for himself, of course thats bullying. Than far right supporters will claim that its not. Of course I dont buy that.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Sep 19, 2019 6:07 pm

Norwegian wrote:
InsaneIntruder wrote:
AlteRoad wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
Actually, I seem to remember he did say that they werent bullied. But maybe Im confusing hes words with that of Andrew Gumbel. He does say, howewer, that it wasnt retaliation over bullying. I agree, cause we will ignore everything else about EH by simply looking at bullying. Bullying can really be a damaging factor if taken to the extreme. Take the example of the syrian refugee that recently recorded an attack by hes racist bully. Where hed been severely beaten simply because he came from Syr
He didn't record it, someone else did. Also, there's no evidence that he was bullied because he was Syrian. Also, I imagine pushing, shoving and pouring water on someone is common in most countries, going by the kind of footage I've seen from countries like America, Russia, China and India. I know stuff like that (and far worse) was extremely common at schools I went to.
Old, but it's somehow just a coincidence that the bully's Facebook profile had EDL propaganda on it?

No. Thats probably why he bullied the fuck out of him, too.

And bullying is bullying no matter how people slice and dice it. If he got hit punched and abused repeatedly at school and he couldnt stand up for himself, of course thats bullying. Than far right supporters will claim that its not. Of course I dont buy that.
I was being sarcastic, since AlteRoad claimed that there was no evidence that the Syrian kid was bullied due to his nationality despite the bully's Facebook profile containing EDL propaganda and if I recall correctly I'm pretty sure at least one of his family members were also connected to the EDL.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Sep 19, 2019 6:10 pm

InsaneIntruder wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
InsaneIntruder wrote:
AlteRoad wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
Actually, I seem to remember he did say that they werent bullied. But maybe Im confusing hes words with that of Andrew Gumbel. He does say, howewer, that it wasnt retaliation over bullying. I agree, cause we will ignore everything else about EH by simply looking at bullying. Bullying can really be a damaging factor if taken to the extreme. Take the example of the syrian refugee that recently recorded an attack by hes racist bully. Where hed been severely beaten simply because he came from Syr
He didn't record it, someone else did. Also, there's no evidence that he was bullied because he was Syrian. Also, I imagine pushing, shoving and pouring water on someone is common in most countries, going by the kind of footage I've seen from countries like America, Russia, China and India. I know stuff like that (and far worse) was extremely common at schools I went to.
Old, but it's somehow just a coincidence that the bully's Facebook profile had EDL propaganda on it?

No. Thats probably why he bullied the fuck out of him, too.

And bullying is bullying no matter how people slice and dice it. If he got hit punched and abused repeatedly at school and he couldnt stand up for himself, of course thats bullying. Than far right supporters will claim that its not. Of course I dont buy that.
I was being sarcastic, since AlteRoad claimed that there was no evidence that the Syrian kid was bullied due to his nationality despite the bully's Facebook profile containing EDL propaganda and if I recall correctly I'm pretty sure at least one of his family members were also connected to the EDL.


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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Oct 02, 2019 12:49 pm

Eric and Dylan were clearly bullied, but Columbine didn't happen because of bullying. The reason Columbine happened is really simple: Eric and Dylan just wanted notoriety, infamy and immortality. Bullying probably made it easier for them to make the decision, but it wasn't the main reason for the massacre.

I don't have a lot of respect for Cullen, but he is right about some things.

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 11:40 pm

To make it clear they were bullied why would Erik Veik say : "finally you guys did something"?
I'm not excusing them. And What they did is unforgivable.
Kids who don't have anywhere to go or anyone to talk to that's what makes them snap.
I've read that after the massacre columbine improved for few months /days but went later to it's old ways.

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The epidemic is lack of family lack of love & isolation."
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Rebbie556 wrote:
To make it clear they were bullied why would Erik Veik say : "finally you guys did something"?
I'm not excusing them.  And What they did is unforgivable.
Kids who don't have anywhere to go or anyone to talk to that's what makes them snap.  
I've read that after the massacre columbine improved for few months /days but went later to it's old ways.

"To me Epidemic isn't  gun violence
The epidemic is lack of family lack of love & isolation."
- Mark Foster
It's one of the reasons I hate Evan Todd, he knew what he was doing, but he never took responsibility and still doesn't. He can claim he changed all he wants, but if he doesn't acknowledge his part on what happened 20 years ago, his whole self reflection is moot.

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Oct 08, 2019 8:42 am

I don't see much if any evidence for "it went from the jocks to everyone". A just-so story if ever there was one in my opinion.  In the journal entries, they very clearly mark the spot for the bombs as the pillars. They also told the library it was going to experience a bomb, and even said they were going to blow up the 'school', and not just the commons. The only way the library experiences anything, and probably the only way they take out more than just the commons, where you would call it blowing up the school, is if it takes out the pillars. Ralph Larkin says they planted it near the jocks, but he says a lot of things.

Plus it seems like a contradiction. The reason anybody believes the jock story in the first place is because what they said in the library, when they were shooting people, in the day or two before anybody knew of the bombs. If you hold onto it after discovery of the bombs, then, for some reason, they wanted to shoot the jocks, and wanted everybody else to get bombed. But we seem to also be saying the opposite, that the bombs were uniquely for the jocks.

Also, whether they wanted to take out the pillars or not, surely they wanted to take out the commons, and that means putting the bombs in the middle of the commons, regardless of who is sitting there. If the jocks happened to sit in the corner, I don't think for a second they would have planted the bombs in a corner.

I suspect they put the bombs under or near tables to hide them or make them look inconspicuous and like they were the property of some student or other. Then, given the day 1 interpretation of the massacre after what they said in the library, people just assume that was the jocks table. I've never seen any detail about who sat where, not even from Larkin.

Also it was A lunch right? I also wonder how many jocks had A lunch. Some did, surely, and can see some hats on the CCTV, but  in my experience I don't remember people of standing like jocks or upperclassmen taking the earliest, busiest lunch period. Though maybe getting out of class at the earliest was a priority, I remember those of standing taking the last lunch period, to fuck off and go home.  The point being if say C lunch had the most jocks but A lunch had the most people, them choosing A lunch would obviously undermine the idea that it was targeting jocks, as if there wasn't enough to undermine that already.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Oct 09, 2019 1:15 pm

cakeman wrote:


Also it was A lunch right? I also wonder how many jocks had A lunch. Some did, surely, and can see some hats on the CCTV, but  in my experience I don't remember people of standing like jocks or upperclassmen taking the earliest, busiest lunch period.

At my school it was automatically assigned to us, not chosen. I'm not sure about Columbine, but assignment for our school was based off what 4th period class was (i.e. everyone who was on the 3rd floor during 4th period had A lunch, everyone on the 2nd had B lunch).

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Oct 13, 2019 8:04 pm

Actually the OP is right. And also Eric and Dylan barely got bullied. These two chickenshits did not deal with the torture that the TCM dealt with, and other kids in that school did. Rocky probably didn't even know those two. And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Oct 13, 2019 8:56 pm

lol wrote:
And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

I think it's important to state that it's your belief that the incident never happened.
Are you making this claim just because we haven't heard a lot about it? If so, what is your opinion of the incidents inclusion in the Governor's Columbine Review Commission report? Do you think the report included unsubstantiated rumors?
What about Sue's report of Dylan coming home with red spots of ketchup on his shirt and saying he'd had the worst day of his life? Is she lying?
I'm guessing you think Brooks Brown is lying about it, given his reputation?
What about Chad Laughlin's claim that it happened? I believe he only mentions Dylan as the victim?

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Screamingophelia
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Oct 13, 2019 9:35 pm

thelmar wrote:
lol wrote:
And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

I think it's important to state that it's your belief that the incident never happened.
Are you making this claim just because we haven't heard a lot about it? If so, what is your opinion of the incidents inclusion in the Governor's Columbine Review Commission report? Do you think the report included unsubstantiated rumors?
What about Sue's report of Dylan coming home with red spots of ketchup on his shirt and saying he'd had the worst day of his life? Is she lying?
I'm guessing you think Brooks Brown is lying about it, given his reputation?
What about Chad Laughlin's claim that it happened? I believe he only mentions Dylan as the victim?

It happened. I lived in Littleton for a year, I know I cannot prove any of this... but you meet people and you find out things.

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cakeman

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Oct 14, 2019 11:10 am

thelmar wrote:
lol wrote:
And The Ketchup Tampon Incident never happened.

I think it's important to state that it's your belief that the incident never happened.
Are you making this claim just because we haven't heard a lot about it? If so, what is your opinion of the incidents inclusion in the Governor's Columbine Review Commission report? Do you think the report included unsubstantiated rumors?
What about Sue's report of Dylan coming home with red spots of ketchup on his shirt and saying he'd had the worst day of his life? Is she lying?
I'm guessing you think Brooks Brown is lying about it, given his reputation?
What about Chad Laughlin's claim that it happened? I believe he only mentions Dylan as the victim?
Something with ketchup probably happened, though it's not at all clear; but if we're talking about the same Governor's report, then there are definitely reasons to call into question. As I recall, it says they planted the cafeteria bombs near the exits, as it relates the common shooting from the parking lot idea (I would say myth) which I don't think has a source. It's interesting that it's included in there, but that is far from gospel. There are better reports on it.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Oct 28, 2019 8:59 pm

This sentence Eric writes in his journal in November '98 is still stuck with me to this day: "If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable..."
Can't get over it. Very frustrating. You wanna do so much but you can't.
Could it have been avoided, though? Like, WHAT could have possibly changed his mind entirely and just drop the plans? Any thoughts?
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thelmar

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Oct 28, 2019 10:09 pm

noodlesoldier wrote:
This sentence Eric writes in his journal in November '98 is still stuck with me to this day: "If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable..."
Can't get over it. Very frustrating. You wanna do so much but you can't.
Could it have been avoided, though? Like, WHAT could have possibly changed his mind entirely and just drop the plans? Any thoughts?

I'm not sure what it was he was looking for or if he received it that it would have changed things. But I do think that this entry is one of the things that illustrates the whole "Eric wanted to kill, Dylan wanted to die" stuff is BS. We can only guess as to his motivation for writing that but to me it sure seems like he wanted some kind of connection with people, some kind of validation of himself. If he just wanted to kill people, I don't think he'd be looking for validation from them or considering what it would take/what he'd need to make him drop the entire plan.

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