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Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum
A place to discuss the Columbine High School Massacre along with other school shootings and crimes. Anyone interested in researching, learning, discussing and debating with us, please come join our community!
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Subject: Re: [[ Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:36 pm
The two I can think off the top of my head are Dimitrios Pagourtzis and Vladislav Roslyakov.
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Subject: Re: [[ Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:03 pm
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
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Subject: Re: [[ Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:30 pm
Martin Peyerl Charles Williams Robert Steinhauser Daniel Gonzalez Jeff Weise Pekka Auvinen Steven Kazmierczak Matti Saari Tim Kretschmer Jerad Miller Vester Flanagan Chris Harper-Mercer Randy Stair [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] more here
TheGoodGuy
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:27 am
QuestionMark wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols.
They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him.
So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.
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11B-X-1371
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:58 am
TheGoodGuy wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols.
They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him.
So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.
This is certainly true if we are talking specifically about an Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold copycat but in the case of Cho or Pekka-Eric Auvinen for example they did not copy the persons but the crime they committed, the Columbine high school massacre. Does that not make them Columbine copycats? Ofcourse it depends on how much the original crime was replicated, placing Vladislav Roslyakov very high and the likes of Cho and Pekka-Eric Auvinen somewhere below him on the scale of how much they copycatted Columbine. Just my opinion on what it means to copycat Columbine but I think mine is rather close to how the term is normally used.
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11B-X-1371
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:02 am
QuestionMark wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Nikolas Cruz failed or never meant to copycat Columbine because he was captured alive. In my opinion committing suicide is a key feature of being a Columbine copycat.
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:42 pm
Nobody has every attempted to copy what that 17 year old girl did back in 2014........
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:22 pm
11B-X-1371 wrote:
TheGoodGuy wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols.
They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him.
So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.
This is certainly true if we are talking specifically about an Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold copycat but in the case of Cho or Pekka-Eric Auvinen for example they did not copy the persons but the crime they committed, the Columbine high school massacre. Does that not make them Columbine copycats? Ofcourse it depends on how much the original crime was replicated, placing Vladislav Roslyakov very high and the likes of Cho and Pekka-Eric Auvinen somewhere below him on the scale of how much they copycatted Columbine. Just my opinion on what it means to copycat Columbine but I think mine is rather close to how the term is normally used.
11B-X-1371 wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Nikolas Cruz failed or never meant to copycat Columbine because he was captured alive. In my opinion committing suicide is a key feature of being a Columbine copycat.
But why the restrictiveness? I think in cases like this it's better to cast a wide net. Most people aren't going to copy a mass murderer anyway, so by including cases where people were inspired to take up arms because of another killer I think we can get a more accurate analysis of just how far Columbine's legacy has reached in terms of others who've killed for Eric and Dylan.
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11B-X-1371
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Subject: Re: [[ Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:01 am
QuestionMark wrote:
11B-X-1371 wrote:
TheGoodGuy wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols.
They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him.
So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.
This is certainly true if we are talking specifically about an Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold copycat but in the case of Cho or Pekka-Eric Auvinen for example they did not copy the persons but the crime they committed, the Columbine high school massacre. Does that not make them Columbine copycats? Ofcourse it depends on how much the original crime was replicated, placing Vladislav Roslyakov very high and the likes of Cho and Pekka-Eric Auvinen somewhere below him on the scale of how much they copycatted Columbine. Just my opinion on what it means to copycat Columbine but I think mine is rather close to how the term is normally used.
11B-X-1371 wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?
Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Nikolas Cruz failed or never meant to copycat Columbine because he was captured alive. In my opinion committing suicide is a key feature of being a Columbine copycat.
But why the restrictiveness? I think in cases like this it's better to cast a wide net. Most people aren't going to copy a mass murderer anyway, so by including cases where people were inspired to take up arms because of another killer I think we can get a more accurate analysis of just how far Columbine's legacy has reached in terms of others who've killed for Eric and Dylan.
Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat. A copycat is someone who wants to commit a crime strikingly similar to the Columbine massacre and I do not think anything where the perpetrator or perpetrators intentionally do not commit suicide bears a huge resemblance to the Columbine massacre. Just my opinion and perhaps I am wrong with it.
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Subject: Re: [[ Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:25 am
11B-X-1371 wrote:
Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.
I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.
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11B-X-1371
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Subject: Re: [[ Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:35 am
QuestionMark wrote:
11B-X-1371 wrote:
Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.
I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.
So tell me then, if I kill in Jesus' name am I a Jesus Christ copycat? Sounds hard to believe to me. Murder sounds like a peculiar way to copy a man who forgave his executioners, an infamous murderer and the whole rest of humanity, during his execution. Someone who's most famous quote maybe is the "turn the other cheeck" one, doesen't sound like advicing to slaughter your classmates who bullied you or a girl who rejected you to me, but well I am nothing but the God of my own life so how could I know.
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Subject: Re: [[ Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:24 pm
11B-X-1371 wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
11B-X-1371 wrote:
Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.
I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.
So tell me then, if I kill in Jesus' name am I a Jesus Christ copycat? Sounds hard to believe to me. Murder sounds like a peculiar way to copy a man who forgave his executioners, an infamous murderer and the whole rest of humanity, during his execution. Someone who's most famous quote maybe is the "turn the other cheeck" one, doesen't sound like advicing to slaughter your classmates who bullied you or a girl who rejected you to me, but well I am nothing but the God of my own life so how could I know.
I'm afraid I have a hard time following your logic.
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Subject: Re: [[ Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:44 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Since the quote feature doesn't work for me, I'll just 'at' you. If a person were to kill in Jesus' name they would be a Christian terrorist, not a Jesus Christ copycat.
11B-X-1371
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Subject: Re: [[ Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:11 am
NSAhoneypot wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Since the quote feature doesn't work for me, I'll just 'at' you. If a person were to kill in Jesus' name they would be a Christian terrorist, not a Jesus Christ copycat.
Indeed, then why if a person were to kill in Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's name would they be a Columbine copycat, not a Columbine inspired killer or even terrorist if the attack was highly political (example Jokela 7.11.2007). In my logic if a person is a Columbine copycat his intention is to be remembered for reliving Columbine and usually topping its body count, to properly do this you do need to be hellbent on suicide. Nikolas Cruz did not seem to particularly copy anything from Columbine into his attack, and he did not commit suicide even tho he had ample opportunity to do so. The only way to make me believe otherwise about his case would be if I were to see him in his writing prior to the attack talk about it as copying Columbine per se, more than just shooting up a school. I hope this clears up my thought process.
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11B-X-1371
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Subject: Re: [[ Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:12 am
QuestionMark wrote:
11B-X-1371 wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
11B-X-1371 wrote:
Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.
I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.
So tell me then, if I kill in Jesus' name am I a Jesus Christ copycat? Sounds hard to believe to me. Murder sounds like a peculiar way to copy a man who forgave his executioners, an infamous murderer and the whole rest of humanity, during his execution. Someone who's most famous quote maybe is the "turn the other cheeck" one, doesen't sound like advicing to slaughter your classmates who bullied you or a girl who rejected you to me, but well I am nothing but the God of my own life so how could I know.
I'm afraid I have a hard time following your logic.
My logic is that whether or not you are copycatting something is not determined by if you do it in that thing's (Eric Harris, Columbine) name or not, but by whether or not you copy multiple details of the original (weapons, gear, planning) with a clear goal of doing so, not unintentionally for example. For me the fact you shot people inside a school is not a big enough connection to say you did it with a purpose of copycatting the Columbine massacre or the Columbine killers, if you also mentioned Columbine in some media you left behind, either did not provide complex explanations of your own or provided ones that either include copying Columbine or very similar material to what reasons the Columbine killers stated were behind their attack and in my opinion quite importantly committed or attempted to commit suicide after your shooting. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold wen't to Columbine high school on the 20th of April 1999 with the clear intention of dying there that very day, Nikolas Cruz intended to live past his attack. I think this is a huge reason to believe he did not commit his crime with the purpose of copying Columbine to much detal, he just committed the same crime as the Columbine killers, mass murder. I am not saying you can not be a Columbine copycat without committing suicide after your crime, but I think that in such scenario you would have to copy either the historical Columbine massacre or the boys' original plan for it, pretty much to the letter to have enough similarity to qualify as a copycat.
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InsaneIntruder
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Subject: Re: [[ Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:20 am
Kimveer Gill comes to mind, as he: Used similar weapons (9mm carbine and was armed with a shotgun) Wore similar clothes (trenchcoat) Actually got a kill (though only 1) Committed suicide at the end Also, could the Emsdetten shooting be considered a successful copycat? No one died except the perpetrator, however it's also very similar to Columbine and he still managed to pull it off, despite no kills.
QuestionMark Top 10 Contributor
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Subject: Re: [[ Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:51 am
11B-X-1371 wrote:
My logic is that whether or not you are copycatting something is not determined by if you do it in that thing's (Eric Harris, Columbine) name or not, but by whether or not you copy multiple details of the original (weapons, gear, planning) with a clear goal of doing so, not unintentionally for example. For me the fact you shot people inside a school is not a big enough connection to say you did it with a purpose of copycatting the Columbine massacre or the Columbine killers, if you also mentioned Columbine in some media you left behind, either did not provide complex explanations of your own or provided ones that either include copying Columbine or very similar material to what reasons the Columbine killers stated were behind their attack and in my opinion quite importantly committed or attempted to commit suicide after your shooting. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold wen't to Columbine high school on the 20th of April 1999 with the clear intention of dying there that very day, Nikolas Cruz intended to live past his attack. I think this is a huge reason to believe he did not commit his crime with the purpose of copying Columbine to much detal, he just committed the same crime as the Columbine killers, mass murder. I am not saying you can not be a Columbine copycat without committing suicide after your crime, but I think that in such scenario you would have to copy either the historical Columbine massacre or the boys' original plan for it, pretty much to the letter to have enough similarity to qualify as a copycat.
Ok, I understand what you're getting at here now, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with it. I think we're gonna reach an impasse on this so I'm just gonna drop it.
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11B-X-1371
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Subject: Re: [[ Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:51 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Well it was nice disagreeing with you. It is true that if you now understund me but still disagree about my opinion we should stop this here, or we risk leaving the territory of intellectual dispute and ending up in a typical YouTube comment section.
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:53 pm
?
Last edited by 9mmtomyhead on Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
treehouseofhorror
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:48 pm
Guilherme Taucci Monteiro and Luiz Henrique de Castro
Luci
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:00 pm
Vlad Roslyakov is the obvious one.
Jeff Weise, Sebastian Bosse, and Dimitrios Pagourtzi could be considered copycats?
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:54 pm
DF978 wrote:
Vlad Roslyakov is the obvious one.
Jeff Weise, Sebastian Bosse, and Dimitrios Pagourtzi could be considered copycats?
True, but well Sebastian Bosse wasn't really successful.
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:56 pm
Matthew Murray Andy Williams Sky Bouche Jose Reyes
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Subject: Re: [[ Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:01 pm
I guess José Ángel Ramos Betts.
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Subject: Re: [[ Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:17 am
Kimveer Gill as well, he killed 1 person.
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Subject: Re: [[ Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:39 pm
9mmtomyhead wrote:
James Holmes (Maybe? I heard somewhere he liked Eric and Dylan)
I heard it quite a lot, but could never find any evidence for this claim, and, to be honest, it sounds too outlandish to be true. While I would not rule anything out and would certainly appreciate it if anyone has additional info on this, I think perhaps this rumor started because two of the jurors at his trial were former Columbine students (one of them a former friend of Eric and Dylan), and people are attributing false connections to Columbine to Holmes simply because they are misremembering.
dyonqqr
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Subject: Re: [[ Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:58 am
Not quite what you were looking for, but Marri Saari killed more than Pekka-Eric Auvinen, who he was essentially a copycat of.
On the topic of copycats outdoing their original, Laurie Dann (wounded 6, killed 1) directly inspired James Wilson, who admitted copying her and reading about her everyday for four months. He killed 2 and wounded 9 in his attack.