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 13 victims or 15 victims?

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Jenn
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PostSubject: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:05 am

One of the biggest debates regarding Columbine. So...which is for you?

For me, it is 15.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:10 am

I think they're all victims.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:41 pm

This debate is just a war of words. I'd sooner say 13 victims just to separate them from the 2 assholes who killed them.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:49 pm

I agree that it's a war of words. The total of victims far exceeds 15. Others were physically injured and lots of kids who weren't are psychologically scarred for life. Add in the grieving families and we're getting into many hundreds.
If we're talking about how many people died unnecessarily that day, I think of the number as 15. Dylan and Eric were killers but that doesn't render them inhuman.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:10 pm

I've always been a staunch supporter of the "47 Victim Rule", personally.

Quote :
I agree that it's a war of words.
The total of victims far exceeds 15. Others were physically injured and lots of kids who weren't are psychologically scarred for life.
Add in the grieving families and we're getting into many hundreds.
If we're talking about how many people died unnecessarily that day, I think
of the number as 15. Dylan and Eric were killers but that doesn't render them inhuman.

Yeah, agreed. All 15 fatalities I guess are "fatalities"/"victims", but 13 of them did not have a choice.
However, the literal "victim" count would stretch into the hundreds, maybe even thousands.

Eric and Dylan (in my opinion) are in a sense, victims from another standpoint. Victims in the sense that they didn't exactly choose the circumstances leading up to/surrounding the massacre which likely impacted them, but not victims of the massacre itself. Post subject to change :v.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:59 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
This debate is just a war of words. I'd sooner say 13 victims just to separate them from the 2 assholes who killed them.
But they were driven to it by bullies and other undue circumstances.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:51 am

Eric and Dylan were the first victims of Columbine. Whether people would like to look at it squarely in the eye or turn away, the fact is that if we as a society had been able to "save" Eric and Dylan, we would have been able to save them all.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Eric and Dylan were the first victims of Columbine. Whether people would like to look at it squarely in the eye or turn away, the fact is that if we as a society had been able to "save" Eric and Dylan, we would have been able to save them all.

Amen to that.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:03 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Eric and Dylan were the first victims of Columbine. Whether people would like to look at it squarely in the eye or turn away, the fact is that if we as a society had been able to "save" Eric and Dylan, we would have been able to save them all.

Amen to that.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:58 am

I do not see Eric and Dylan as victims of Columbine. In a different sense, they were victims of being bullied, but of the massacre, I disagree that they're victims. They committed it.

I find it would be a tad disrespectful to the victims to have their killers memorialized with them in the concrete memorials, not to mention the living who are scarred for life.

However, internet collages and youtube tributes with fifteen faces don't bother me at all if someone wants to include them. But what really angers me when someone comments on a picture of thirteen faces saying "where's Eric and Dylan?" It's like, wow, is it so bad for the victims to be remembered in their own group picture without their killers being given extra attention every single time?

(Please tell me I'm not the only one who feels this way? I hate how unpopular this opinion is lol, even away from Tumblr, where people who share my opinion are assumed to be unaware that "they died too/their parents lost children too". Or described as, my favorite, "ignorant".)
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:04 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I do not see Eric and Dylan as victims of Columbine. In a different sense, they were victims of being bullied, but of the massacre, I disagree that they're victims. They committed it.

I find it would be a tad disrespectful to the victims to have their killers memorialized with them in the concrete memorials, not to mention the living who are scarred for life.

However, internet collages and youtube tributes with fifteen faces don't bother me at all if someone wants to include them. But what really angers me when someone comments on a picture of thirteen faces saying "where's Eric and Dylan?" It's like, wow, is it so bad for the victims to be remembered in their own group picture without their killers being given extra attention every single time?

(Please tell me I'm not the only one who feels this way? I hate how unpopular this opinion is lol, even away from Tumblr, where people who share my opinion are assumed to be unaware that "they died too/their parents lost children too". Or described as, my favorite, "ignorant".)

How do you feel about Dylan and Eric's crosses being torn out of the ground, chopped up and thrown away?

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:18 am

Ah, I knew that was coming. I knew It was just me.

(Here comes another unpopular opinion) I understand why they were torn out of the ground and chopped up in the days following the massacre. A way of unleashing anger I suppose. (And a somewhat popular part) but it was still highly unnecessary.

(And back to unpopular) I think Eric and Dylan should have had their crosses put elsewhere, for those who wanted to visit their crosses. Not everyone wanted to see their faces in the same place as the victims' concrete memorials while the shock was still present. People affected by Columbine shouldn't have to have felt obligated to pay tribute to the people who committed the massacre while their emotions were still running high.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:28 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Ah, I knew that was coming. I knew It was just me.

(Here comes another unpopular opinion) I understand why they were torn out of the ground and chopped up in the days following the massacre. A way of unleashing anger I suppose. (And a somewhat popular part) but it was still highly unnecessary.

(And back to unpopular) I think Eric and Dylan should have had their crosses put elsewhere, for those who wanted to visit their crosses. Not everyone wanted to see their faces in the same place as the victims' concrete memorials while the shock was still present. People affected by Columbine shouldn't have to have felt obligated to pay tribute to the people who committed the massacre while their emotions were still running high.

It's not just you, I am sure other people feel that way too. I believe that all 15 were victims though. Mainly because of how Dylan and Eric were treated prior to the massacre that led to them to doing it. I think ripping the crosses out of the ground and chopping them up was horrible though. Dylan and Eric's parents lost a child too, but on the other side of the coin, I can understand why the parents of the children that Dylan and Eric murdered wouldn't want to see their crosses next to their child's. I guess my thoughts on this are more complex than I originally thought.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:57 am

I think Eric and Dylan were victims of their own mind.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:11 am

13 for me.

As for the crosses - I think it was absolutely idiotic for them to put one's up for Eric and Dylan. Imagine, let's say, your brother had been gunned down days earlier and his memorial cross is in between the two people who did it.

Just thinking about it boggles the mind. I could never imagine them carving Lanza's name into any memorials at Newtown.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:29 am

For me 15 victims and Dylan and Eric are the first ones. They are victims of this society, victims of what surrounded them, and eventually of their own mind. The 13 victims are victims of the massacre, of what they provoked and put their crosses there in the middle of the other crosses was totally wrong but they are definitely victims too.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:57 pm

15 victims--Eric and Dylan were victims of the environment and society they grew up in.

I can understand why parents would find E and D's crosses right next to the other 13 victims who were killed by them to be disrespectful and such. They should have been moved a decent distance from the other crosses, at the very least.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:55 pm

15, most of the time. But I understand why sometimes you need a video that talks of 13 families (or 13 victims) because the focus is often on the perpetretors instead of the victims. I also agree that Eric and Dylan's crosses should not have been on that hill.

People's anger is understandable. But reactions are so widely varied. Some victims or people close to victims understand how E & D did such a thing, they hold no anger. You can see how very different people's reactions are when you see the letters, the prayers on Dylan and Eric's crosses. I remember when I watched ''13 families'', it's so apparent from families talking about their loss that some have a lot of anger still, while others have forgiven Eric and Dylan and to some extent, understand why they did what they did (even if it doesn't make it right). That's people who actually lost a sibling, pretty incredible but, it's all very personal, whether someone holds anger, forgive and so on.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:29 pm

Hale-Bopp wrote:
I think Eric and Dylan were victims of their own mind.
I agree. But they were also victims of bullying, medication (for Eric, at least). They were victims of a society that only cares about people who are athletic, pretty, and popular.
However, regarding the crosses, it was disrespectful to the families to put them up right beside the people they killed. I think they should have put the crosses far away from the other 13.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:11 pm

I still don't understand, why people always say, that Eric and Dylan were bullied. I would not consider anything of the things other people did to them as bulllying.
Making fun of someones clothing is not bullying. Shoving someone in the halls, because he is blocking the Jocks way, in not bullying. Throwing a bottle at a random person is not bullying.

For me, bullying is when someone constantly and repeatedly attacking someone else who is specifically targeted on a daily basis. There is no evidence that this did ever happen to Eric or Dylan, so, I don't think that they were ever bullied.

But they, in fact, bullied other people. As Dylan harassed and threatened this boy with special education needs, for example. This boy was chosen as a specific target and attacked on a more or less daily basis down to a point where the boys mother considered to take her son from the school. This was bullying.

I don't say this, because I think Eric and Dylan were monsters and don't deserve our pity, I definitive feel for them. But I feel for them, because I know what a devastating turn took their mind during adolescence. I cant feel pity for them being bullied, because they just weren't.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:40 pm

They werent bully in the way that someone repeatedly attack them but they were rejected by the society, they didnt fit in anywhere because they were not exatcly what people call "normal", even Brooks Brown said that they were a couple of losers and that for a teaneger is really hard to handle, becoming very antisocial with the time. If they started to bully others, it could be a signal of how angry they were with the people for not accept them, sometimes this people start to be very rude with others so it could be how they expressed what they felt.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:10 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
they didnt fit in anywhere because they were not exatcly what people call "normal"
I understand what you're saying but they also had ways of being sure that they didn't. They made being "different" almost a shield of armor and made damn sure people knew they weren't like them.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:17 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
they didnt fit in anywhere because they were not exatcly what people call "normal"
I understand what you're saying but they also had ways of being sure that they didn't. They made being "different" almost a shield of armor and made damn sure people knew they weren't like them.

I understand what you are saying too but I think that in the end they did that, because is very possible that they were rejected since childhood, specially Eric that could never made friends easily for moved on regularly so after suffer that problem for so many years, made that "shield of armor" and dont care about people anymore and show them that they were different, was like giving up and finally learn that people doesnt worth it anyway, because their hate against them was starting to grow inside.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:11 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
15, most of the time. But I understand why sometimes you need a video that talks of 13 families (or 13 victims) because the focus is often on the perpetretors instead of the victims. I also agree that Eric and Dylan's crosses should not have been on that hill.

People's anger is understandable. But reactions are so widely varied. Some victims or people close to victims understand how E & D did such a thing, they hold no anger. You can see how very different people's reactions are when you see the letters, the prayers on Dylan and Eric's crosses. I remember when I watched ''13 families'', it's so apparent from families talking about their loss that some have a lot of anger still, while others have forgiven Eric and Dylan and to some extent, understand why they did what they did (even if it doesn't make it right). That's people who actually lost a sibling, pretty incredible but, it's all very personal, whether someone holds anger, forgive and so on.

I agree with both of these paragraphs. Sometimes it's appropriate to include Eric and Dylan in things, others not. But there are some tumblr/youtube wackos who can't handle when the focus is on 13 and Eric and Dylan are left out of it (like in "13 families", "reunion", Livy paintings, the atrium, Chapel Hill, Clement Park, and even internet pictures of faces). I cannot stand people like that. These same people are so quick to judge and demonize the victims' families reactions to their losses too.

If I remember correctly, at the end of "Dawn Anna" (has anyone else seen or heard of it?) the credits list the 13 victims in memory, pause for a second, then list Eric and Dylan. I kind of like the pause. Not exactly grouping them with their victims, but also wishing them a rest in peace. I remember seeing a news clip of a bell tower ringing fifteen times the week after the shooting. If I also remember correctly, there was a longer pause before the 14th ringing.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:10 am

Y'know, it's because of this that I actually kind of wish that Rachel Scott had drawn 2 more tears in her last illustration.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:09 am

I always think 13 victims simply because there were 13 that day who were innocent and died at the hands of evil. Eric and Dylan knew they were going to die, why did they have to take innocent people with them.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:58 pm

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
13 for me.

As for the crosses - I think it was absolutely idiotic for them to put one's up for Eric and Dylan. Imagine, let's say, your brother had been gunned down days earlier and his memorial cross is in between the two people who did it.

Just thinking about it boggles the mind. I could never imagine them carving Lanza's name into any memorials at Newtown.

I think it was a wonderful thing there were crosses for E &D put up on the Hill.In my opinion,they deserved to be there like the others because they were victims too.People always look at it from the victims' relatives points of view, but there is another side and a point of view that is as valid as theirs.That of Eric and Dylan's parents and siblings.They lost just as much as the other families ,maybe more,and were in even worse agony.I don't know how Eric's parents felt but the Klebolds have come out and said that they were angered and very hurt by the crosses being ripped up and destroyed.Why don't their feelings matter as much as the victims relatives? I also don't think all the victims relatives ,for example people like the Scotts,Curnows, and Bernalls at that time were enraged about the crosses being there.If they were they didn't say anything about it or seem to make efforts to get them removed.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I always think 13 victims simply because there were 13 that day who were innocent and died at the hands of evil. Eric and Dylan knew they were going to die, why did they have to take innocent people with them.


Eric and Dylan's actions were evil that day but another sort of evil sparked the fire that led them down this path to start with.What is it but evil to ostracize and humiliate someone for your own pleasure because they are different and don't fit in or fit your standards? This happens millions a time a day in high schools all over the place.


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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:09 am

13 victims. When I think "victim" I don't think of the perpetrators.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:14 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
13 for me.

As for the crosses - I think it was absolutely idiotic for them to put one's up for Eric and Dylan. Imagine, let's say, your brother had been gunned down days earlier and his memorial cross is in between the two people who did it.

Just thinking about it boggles the mind. I could never imagine them carving Lanza's name into any memorials at Newtown.

I think it was a wonderful thing there were crosses for E &D put up on the Hill.In my opinion,they deserved to be there like the others because they were victims too.People always look at it from the victims' relatives points of view, but there is another side and a point of view that is as valid as theirs.That of Eric and Dylan's parents and siblings.They lost just as much as the other families ,maybe more,and were in even worse agony.I don't know how Eric's parents felt but the Klebolds have come out and said that they were  angered and very hurt by the crosses being ripped up and destroyed.Why don't their feelings matter as much as the victims relatives? I also don't think all the victims relatives ,for example people like the Scotts,Curnows, and Bernalls at that time were enraged about the crosses being there.If they were they didn't say anything about it or seem to make efforts to get them removed.

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