Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum

A place to discuss the Columbine High School Massacre along with other school shootings and crimes.
Anyone interested in researching, learning, discussing and debating with us, please come join our community!
 
HomeHome  PortalPortal  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Share | 
 

 13 victims or 15 victims?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
AuthorMessage
Jenn
Forum Owner
avatar

Posts : 3123
Join date : 2013-03-13
Location : A place where it always snows.

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:43 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
13 for me.

As for the crosses - I think it was absolutely idiotic for them to put one's up for Eric and Dylan. Imagine, let's say, your brother had been gunned down days earlier and his memorial cross is in between the two people who did it.

Just thinking about it boggles the mind. I could never imagine them carving Lanza's name into any memorials at Newtown.

I think it was a wonderful thing there were crosses for E &D put up on the Hill.In my opinion,they deserved to be there like the others because they were victims too.People always look at it from the victims' relatives points of view, but there is another side and a point of view that is as valid as theirs.That of Eric and Dylan's parents and siblings.They lost just as much as the other families ,maybe more,and were in even worse agony.I don't know how Eric's parents felt but the Klebolds have come out and said that they were  angered and very hurt by the crosses being ripped up and destroyed.Why don't their feelings matter as much as the victims relatives? I also don't think all the victims relatives ,for example people like the Scotts,Curnows, and Bernalls at that time were enraged about the crosses being there.If they were they didn't say anything about it or seem to make efforts to get them removed.

I agree with this. It was one thing to remove the crosses, but why destroy them? Didn't anyone even consider that maybe their parents would want their crosses? And it is true, Dylan and Eric's parents lost just as much as the parents of the other victims. People seem to forget that though. Regardless of what happened, they were still their children and they were never going to see them again and not only that but they had to accept that their children were not what they thought they were.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Juicy Jazzy
Top Contributor


Posts : 434
Join date : 2013-09-03

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:04 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
Eric and Dylan's actions were evil that day but another sort of evil sparked the fire that led them down this path to start with.What is it but evil to ostracize and humiliate someone for your own pleasure because they are different and don't fit in or fit your standards? This happens millions a time a day in high schools all over the place.

But the millions of people who are bullied each day don't go off on a homicidal rampage, though.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Draw_It_White
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1089
Join date : 2014-01-27
Age : 33
Location : England

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:22 am

It was stupid because that was always going to happen. Unfair on Klebold's and Harris' that try were torn down the way they were I agree.I doubt the Klebold's and Harris family wanted them their in the first place as they knew that would likely happen - hence why it was never revealed where the boys were buried as a similar thing may have happened at the gravesite.

I don't blame the families that pulled them down - not one bit. I blame whoever put them up in the first place.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
JayJay



Posts : 293
Join date : 2013-09-28
Location : At the library

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:12 am

In Tom Mauser's book, Walking in Daniel's Shoes, he says that the person who made the crosses was a carpenter with good intentions who never asked anybody's opinion before putting up the crosses on the hill. So, with raw feelings, it was predictable that anger would erupt. It must have lead to more hurt for E & D's parents. Of course, they would not speak up, they basically lost all their rights to speak up and defend themselves and their sons because of how evil they were considered. Tom Mauser himself is of the opinion E&D's crosses should have been put in another place, apart from the others, while still having a right to their own.

_________________
"Is evil something you are? Or is it something you do? My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape."
- American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis (1991)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:34 pm

Juicy Jazzy wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
Eric and Dylan's actions were evil that day but another sort of evil sparked the fire that led them down this path to start with.What is it but evil to ostracize and humiliate someone for your own pleasure because they are different and don't fit in or fit your standards? This happens millions a time a day in high schools all over the place.

But the millions of people who are bullied each day don't go off on a homicidal rampage, though.


Not every bullied victim goes off and commits suicide alone either, but it still happens many times a year all over the world.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:44 pm

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
It was stupid because that was always going to happen. Unfair on Klebold's and Harris' that try were torn down the way they were I agree.I doubt the Klebold's and Harris family wanted them their in the first place as they knew that would likely happen - hence why it was never revealed where the boys were buried as a similar thing may have happened at the gravesite.

I don't blame the families that pulled them down - not one bit. I blame whoever put them up in the first place.


I don't think it was a stupid thing to do.I think it was a kind,compassionate and very Christian action to take.To me, that is true Christianity in action. Pulling down the crosses and destroying the trees was anything but even though the people who did that were coming from a very self righteous Christian standpoint.
I don't know what Eric's parents felt but Dylan's parents said they welcomed the crosses and were very pleased and touched they were put up and hurt and angered when they were ripped up.Dylan's father referred to the ones who destroyed the crosses and trees as a "lynch mob" and no matter how unpopular this opinion is,I have to say I agree with him.
The victim's parents who tore down the trees and crosses have always been very vocal about not having any sympathy or empathy for Eric and Dylan's parents so I'm sure they did not care at the time how hurt they would be by such an action.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:50 pm

JayJay wrote:
In Tom Mauser's book, Walking in Daniel's Shoes, he says that the person who made the crosses was a carpenter with good intentions who never asked anybody's opinion before putting up the crosses on the hill. So, with raw feelings, it was predictable that anger would erupt. It must have lead to more hurt for E & D's parents. Of course, they would not speak up, they basically lost all their rights to speak up and defend themselves and their sons because of how evil they were considered. Tom Mauser himself is of the opinion E&D's crosses should have been put in another place, apart from the others, while still having a right to their own.


They should not have lost their right to speak.Many people still act to this very day as if their parents have no right to any grief,sorrow, feelings or opinions about anything that happened,or any part of the events.What a shame for them to endure such a tragedy and then be forced to keep silent and not be able to speak in your defense or express your sorrow and agony in any public way for so many years.Eric's parents are still too afraid to speak up.They say they never will.It was people's hateful ignorance and the lawsuits from the victim's families that went on for many years that stopped the Klebolds from being able to speak for so long.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:05 pm

CatherineM813 wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
Radioactive_Clothing wrote:
13 for me.

As for the crosses - I think it was absolutely idiotic for them to put one's up for Eric and Dylan. Imagine, let's say, your brother had been gunned down days earlier and his memorial cross is in between the two people who did it.

Just thinking about it boggles the mind. I could never imagine them carving Lanza's name into any memorials at Newtown.

I think it was a wonderful thing there were crosses for E &D put up on the Hill.In my opinion,they deserved to be there like the others because they were victims too.People always look at it from the victims' relatives points of view, but there is another side and a point of view that is as valid as theirs.That of Eric and Dylan's parents and siblings.They lost just as much as the other families ,maybe more,and were in even worse agony.I don't know how Eric's parents felt but the Klebolds have come out and said that they were  angered and very hurt by the crosses being ripped up and destroyed.Why don't their feelings matter as much as the victims relatives? I also don't think all the victims relatives ,for example people like the Scotts,Curnows, and Bernalls at that time were enraged about the crosses being there.If they were they didn't say anything about it or seem to make efforts to get them removed.

AMEN PaintItBlack!!

Thank You Catherine.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:12 pm

I have a great sympathy for the agony the victim's family's have been through and the terrible loss of their loved ones, but I have even more sympathy for the family of E &D because I think they've suffered the most with little help or support and lots of lawsuits, public judgment and harassment to deal with along the way.Despite my sympathy for them,I don't think some of the things some victims families' have done and said over the years towards the H&K families has been right.

_________________
We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
Back to top Go down
View user profile
midema



Posts : 35
Join date : 2014-04-29

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:34 pm

15.

I'm still researching the psychological effects of peer victimization but to me there has to be a causal factor for what Eric and Dylan did.

It doesn't make it right.

However, they did commit suicide and that does give us clues as to how they valued themselves. That thinking doesn't come from nowhere. Something did happen to these boys to make them depressed and for what rage they felt to build.

To me they were the victims of society.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Undyne

avatar

Posts : 184
Join date : 2013-03-17

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:44 pm

If Eric and Dylan are victims of 4/20, then why not extend it to those injured?  Or those who weren't injured but are still suffering from PTSD?  Aren't they also victims of 4/20?

The very definition of victim keeps me from saying that E+D were victims of 4/20/99. The perpetrator cannot be a victim of an attack.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:44 pm

Not everyone agrees that a perpetrator cannot also be a victim.It's all opinion.Perhaps they cannot be a victim in the exact same way as others killed but I believe they can be victims all the same.People who commit suicide alone are also called suicide victims or victims of suicide although most of the time they made a conscious choice to die for whatever reasons.

_________________
We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Undyne

avatar

Posts : 184
Join date : 2013-03-17

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:31 am

Yes, that's just my opinion.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Draw_It_White
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1089
Join date : 2014-01-27
Age : 33
Location : England

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:59 am

I suppose people will always think differently about this sort of thing.

I find it difficult feeling sorry for for murderers. People like Amon Goeth who shot people were more than likely a little mentally unhinged and had quite radical views (ie E&D) - you didn't see many people feeling too sorry for him or his family when they hanged him or call him a victim of the war.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:07 pm

I have a few questions.People always ask others to look at this from the viewpoint of a victims family member. What if you were a parent of E &D's or a sibling? What would you feel then about the crosses and trees being destroyed? Would you still feel then that no murderer ever deserves any understanding or sympathy?

I am not asking out of hostility but sincere curiosity.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
midema



Posts : 35
Join date : 2014-04-29

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:15 pm

It's difficult for me to think from the viewpoint of the family members. I find many of them to be filled with so much hate that it turns me off of their cause completely.

I am not a fan girl. I'm merely someone that has been deeply affected by being out of the norm and I feel that being hateful and disrespectful doesn't add to our understanding of how this occured.

I think what the victims must understand is that it is tremendously difficult to deal with a teenager who is emotionally unstable. It takes a champion of a parent to be able to navigate those waters.

I for one had parents who did not know how to deal with me. And so... they didn't deal with me. I pulled myself out of it.

So in regards to the crosses or trees. The thing is... they did what they could. They couldn't have known. And to deny them a place to grieve to me is just cruel. They didn't pull the trigger.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:28 pm

midema wrote:
It's difficult for me to think from the viewpoint of the family members. I find many of them to be filled with so much hate that it turns me off of their cause completely.

I am not a fan girl.  I'm merely someone that has been deeply affected by being out of the norm and I feel that being hateful and disrespectful doesn't add to our understanding of how this occured.

I think what the victims must understand is that it is tremendously difficult to deal with a teenager who is emotionally unstable. It takes a champion of a parent to be able to navigate those waters.

I for one had parents who did not know how to deal with me. And so... they didn't deal with me. I pulled myself out of it.

So in regards to the crosses or trees. The thing is... they did what they could. They couldn't have known. And to deny them a place to grieve to me is just cruel. They didn't pull the trigger.  


This is a super post.I agree with much of what you said.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
iceflames



Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-12-27

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:48 pm

I personally think 13 victims. You can think Eric and Dylan are victims but they weren't victims of 4/20. Honestly it doesn't bother me when people say there are 15 victims. What does bother me is when someone makes like a graphic with the 13 and someone has to comment, "15 not 13!!!!". Does it really hurt you that much to see 13 people have their own thing?

As for the parents, while you may not agree with the crosses and trees being taken down, it isn't that hard to understand where they're coming from. If my kid was murdered, I definitely wouldn't be thinking of how the parents of the kid that killed mine would feel. I would definitely feel hate at the moment. So while you don't agree with those actions, you can at least try to see it from their viewpoints. I feel for the Klebolds and Harrises just like I do for the victims families. I do feel sorry that they don't have a place to mourn their sons, so I don't agree with the crosses/trees being cut down but I can understand why the victims family members didn't want them up.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Undyne

avatar

Posts : 184
Join date : 2013-03-17

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:53 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
I have a few questions.People always ask others to look at this from the viewpoint of a victims family member. What if you were a parent of E &D's or a sibling? What would you feel then about the crosses and trees being destroyed? Would you still feel then that no murderer ever deserves any understanding or sympathy?

I am not asking out of hostility but sincere curiosity.

I would be too shocked at the massacre itself to really care about a cross and a tree.  I would be more concerned if someone started vandalizing my property, something that didn't happen to the Harrises and Klebolds.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:04 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
I have a few questions.People always ask others to look at this from the viewpoint of a victims family member. What if you were a parent of E &D's or a sibling? What would you feel then about the crosses and trees being destroyed? Would you still feel then that no murderer ever deserves any understanding or sympathy?

I am not asking out of hostility but sincere curiosity.

I would be too shocked at the massacre itself to really care about a cross and a tree.  I would be more concerned if someone started vandalizing my property, something that didn't happen to the Harrises and Klebolds.

You might think you would not care now but if you were actually in that situation, you might find it hurtful at the time it was happening. Dylan's parents said they did.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
819234



Posts : 50
Join date : 2014-02-18
Location : FloriDUH

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:32 pm

In my opinion, 15 victims. I don't know if it's wrong to sympathize with people that are considered "bad", but whatever. And no, I'm not one of the people that wishes that the bombs would've gone off. I feel sorry for anyone that gets to the point where they want to kill as many people as possible. Because that doesn't happen overnight. And E/D probably weren't homicidal/suicidal their entire lives. It's a sad process of going from a happy normal kid to a hate-filled teenager. It's a long process of becoming homicial, building so much hatred and rage against the world that failed you. No sane, mentally stable person with an easy life would randomly decide to shoot up a school just for the heck of it. And NBK wasn't done "just for the heck of it". There are so many underlying causes and variables that no one will know exactly why. It's unfortunate that E/D didn't get help on time. All these years, everyone missed the warning signs. Eric and Dylan were just too smart.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:43 pm

I don't like seeing graphics with 13 victims because 15 people died and in my opinion they were all victims and should all be remembered. I don't think anyone should be left out.


Whatever else is relevant, the fact is that the H &K families were denied any presence in any memorial, they were discriminated against and denied basic caring and sympathy.People,including some victims families were pretty cruel to them and I will never think that was right or acceptable.If all this makes me a bad person,I can live with that.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Undyne

avatar

Posts : 184
Join date : 2013-03-17

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:55 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:


You might think you would not care now but if you were actually  in that situation, you might find it hurtful at the time it was happening. Dylan's parents said they did.

No, I wouldn't care and would understand why the crosses were destroyed. That's just who I am.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PaintItBlack
Top 10 Contributor
avatar

Posts : 1750
Join date : 2014-02-11
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:02 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:


You might think you would not care now but if you were actually  in that situation, you might find it hurtful at the time it was happening. Dylan's parents said they did.

No, I wouldn't care and would understand why the crosses were destroyed.  That's just who I am.


You wouldn't care if your very own child's cross and tree were destroyed?... No matter what, your child is your child.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Undyne

avatar

Posts : 184
Join date : 2013-03-17

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:15 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
sergeant hartman wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:


You might think you would not care now but if you were actually  in that situation, you might find it hurtful at the time it was happening. Dylan's parents said they did.

No, I wouldn't care and would understand why the crosses were destroyed.  That's just who I am.


You wouldn't care if your very own child's cross and tree were destroyed?... No matter what, your child is your child.

No, because the cross is just an inanimate object and I have better things to worry about. I would appreciate the gesture by Zanis, but I would understand that my son's cross doesn't belong right next to the crosses of those he people he murdered.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gutenfxckintag



Posts : 71
Join date : 2014-03-08

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat May 03, 2014 9:53 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
I don't like seeing graphics with 13 victims because 15 people died and in my opinion they were all victims and should all be remembered. I don't think anyone should be left out.


Whatever else is relevant, the fact is that the H &K families were denied any presence in any memorial, they were discriminated against and denied basic caring and sympathy.People,including some victims families were pretty cruel to them and I will never think that was right or acceptable.If all this makes me a bad person,I can live with that.

It's not appropriate to place concrete memorials of them in the same lace as their victims. These families are not comfortable with their child's killer being memorialized in the same place. This is not cruel and certainly not discrimination. It's not all about catering to the Harris and Klebold families, chapel hill and the clement park ring are for the innocent victims who did not have a choice.

A graphic is a different thing. Saying "RIP all fifteen" is a different thing. Ringing a church bell fifteen times is a different thing. This year on the tumblr tag (I always read every post on April 20th), I saw one graphic with thirteen faces. One. There are some graphics that have fifteen faces. You can also make your own graphics. Heck, you can even make your own little memorial to the 15 people who died in your backyard.

But when a public memorial is made by the columbine community /families/survivor, whether or not the killers are included should be their call. That by no means they don't sympathize with Eric and Dylan and their families. It's funny how people always say "the killers families lost children too ad the victims families don't let them grieve" yet they tell the families of the victims how to grieve, god forbid they don't want their child's killer's face next to their child's memorial. There's no right way to grieve. Each family grieves differently.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gutenfxckintag



Posts : 71
Join date : 2014-03-08

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat May 03, 2014 10:18 pm

Now before anyone accuses me of not, I do sympathize with the H&K families. I get it. They lost children too. I've heard so a million times. But people need to look from the victims families points of view too, which is the side that isn't looked at on the internet. Not the other way around. Of course no one has to justify destroying the crosses or filing a lawsuit, just understand why it was done from their point of view. And they deserve to have their own projects like 13 families without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan.

Why don't THEIR feelings matter as much as the H&K families just because their child was NOT a perpetrator?

This is one reason why I hope I never lose a loved one to mass murder, because if I feel the need to file a lawsuit for something I'm going to be labeled as this huge asshole for the rest of my life just for acting like the loved one of a murderer and wanting justice for my loved one. If I act upon human nature and struggle with forgiveness fifteen years later I'll be labeled as an asshole for the rest of my life.

Aaaah sorry guys. My blood is boiling. I should take a walk around the block.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
midema



Posts : 35
Join date : 2014-04-29

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sat May 03, 2014 11:11 pm

Perhaps this is just the point of view of someone that is not American but... can someone please explain to me how filing a lawsuit helps grieving families?

I'm sorry but if I were to lose a child or loved one at the hands of another I sure as hell wouldn't be suing anyone. Attempting to change policies... yes. But asking for money... No.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gutenfxckintag



Posts : 71
Join date : 2014-03-08

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sun May 04, 2014 12:56 am

Parents of murdered children (even children lost in accidents- hell, adults too) file lawsuits all the time. The same reasons why anyone files lawsuits for anything. It's easy to say what you would do or would not do if you lost a child to murder (or manslaughter). If the murder was preventable and you felt someone in particular was responsible, would you let it slide before exploring the issue?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
midema



Posts : 35
Join date : 2014-04-29

PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sun May 04, 2014 1:18 am

Ofcourse not. But I wouldn't file a lawsuit. A lawsuit is as useful as a receipt for propane in determining why these kids killed.

The thing is I feel like this is a much more complex issue than most people realize. And asking for money doesn't solve anything. If answers is what they wanted a lawsuit may only serve to keep parents quiet.

In my eyes this is something that started when Eric and Dylan were kids. To say that an intervention would have stopped this is being naïve. It's not understanding the depth of the issue. It's not being conscious of just how badly they wanted this.

I feel like Eric and Dylan were victims of a culture that favors everything that they maybe were not. And in turn they victimized others. It's not right. But it's what happened.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
 
13 victims or 15 victims?
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 5Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Thoughts on the Shooting-
Jump to: