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 13 victims or 15 victims?

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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Sun May 04, 2014 11:42 pm

I relate to them and sympathize with what they went through and , many of the things they likely thought and felt.I understand why they did what they did even though I can't condone it and wish it had never happened.I know what its like to find yourself on that kind of an edge, to feel that kind of hate and rage,how all that feels.I've been where they were in my past.I'm just grateful that due to circumstances I never acted on it when I was in HS.I could have been them really easily.A lot of people will never understand all that.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 8:17 am

If the victims parents still have some hate, why does that bother you? Like gutenfxckintag said about 13 Families, lauren townsend's stepfather is the only one who said something bad about E&D parents and it wasn't *that* bad. He something along the lines of feeling that the Harris's have some responsibility. He didn't say they were bad parents. Even if I don't agree, he has every right to feel that way. You have every right to feel more sympathy for E&D's parents but that doesn't mean you have.to criticize the other families for grieving in their own way.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 9:02 am

I agree with your comment overall iceflames but I think what bothers PaintItBlack is that the H&K families are misunderstood and that they have already been through hell and back and that a comment like Bruce's would hurt their feelings even more if they heard it.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 9:06 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
But I've never bullied anyone, never egged anyone on, was made fun of for being shy, and never killed anyone.  Why do you love Eric and Dylan but not me?

Stop mocking other members.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 9:18 am

I'm not mocking anyone. I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre. Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 9:31 am

We're not talking about just light bullying. And I don't think people place them at the same level. To be perfectly honest most people don't understand the impact of peer victimization. I've been there so I do. Getting to the point of killing someone NO but I understand the position they were put in. Luckily I changed schools. But it's not an easy thing and I don't feel like you can say one person is more of a victim than another.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 9:33 am

sergeant hartman wrote:
I'm not mocking anyone.  I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre.  Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?

You asked her why she "loved" them but didn't love you. I don't recall her ever saying she "loved" them and I can't help but think you are trying to take a jab at her for being a "fan". Arguing your point is fine but you don't need to mock other members and make them feel uncomfortable by making comments like that. Just because someone sympathizes with Dylan and Eric more than the other victims doesn't mean they "love" them. And remember, everyone is entitled their own opinions.

If she did say she loved them, then I apologize.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 1:28 pm

Alright,

I just wanted to add something else. The fact is we will never truly know what made Eric and Dylan do what they did. However, denying that their experiences had a part in how they became killers, frankly, is naive.

I don't put anyone above anyone else when it comes to peer victimization (bullying). The fact is, not everyone lives the same life when they are bullied. Some have poor relationships with parents and some have a longer history of being victimized. Some are more emotional and some are less emotional. You simply cannot compare Eric and Dylan to others who were bullied.

I think the question should be: what made them cross that line? what do they share with other school shooters? what is it about Littleton, CO which would have contributed to this?

I recently met with a friend who stated that her husband had met a couple from Littleton during his Masters in IT and they both (as people who would have been considered weird in Littleton) stated that it was a HORRIBLE place to live. Now, as to WHY it happened. I think it was a culmination of a lot of different things. And, you can't just blame it on Columbine.

I personally have been trying to come to terms with my experiences in school and I can tell you it goes back to kindergarten. And in many ways I have to reserve a little place in my heart for those who have suffered emotionally as I did. As for Dylan and Eric - I can't extract them from that little corner of my heart because of the consequences of whatever it was that they felt. To me you don't just write off someone as being a bad seed when, clearly, society had a hand in creating that monster. I think that the desire to do so says a lot about how society works today.

If you are constantly treated in a heartless manor you will eventually become heartless. When people don't care about you, you will eventually stop caring about people. To me, this is just an extreme form.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 6:29 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
If the victims parents still have some hate, why does that bother you? Like gutenfxckintag said about 13 Families, lauren townsend's stepfather is the only one who said something bad about E&D parents and it wasn't *that* bad. He something along the lines of feeling that the Harris's have some responsibility. He didn't say they were bad parents. Even if I don't agree, he has every right to feel that way. You have every right to feel more sympathy for E&D's parents but that doesn't mean you have.to criticize the other families for grieving in their own way.


Because I believe the H &K families' are good people and at least tried their best to be decent parents and nothing that happened was their fault .They have suffered even more than these other families and had it even worse and I don't believe they deserved to have to deal with all these other hurtful things on top of all that.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 6:32 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I agree with your comment overall iceflames but I think what bothers PaintItBlack is that the H&K families are misunderstood and that they have already been through hell and back and that a comment like Bruce's would hurt their feelings even more if they heard it.

That's the jist of it.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 6:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Alright,

I just wanted to add something else. The fact is we will never truly know what made Eric and Dylan do what they did. However, denying that their experiences had a part in how they became killers, frankly, is naive.

I don't put anyone above anyone else when it comes to peer victimization (bullying). The fact is, not everyone lives the same life when they are bullied. Some have poor relationships with parents and some have a longer history of being victimized. Some are more emotional and some are less emotional. You simply cannot compare Eric and Dylan to others who were bullied.

I think the question should be: what made them cross that line? what do they share with other school shooters? what is it about Littleton, CO which would have contributed to this?

I recently met with a friend who stated that her husband had met a couple from Littleton during his Masters in IT and they both (as people who would have been considered weird in Littleton) stated that it was a HORRIBLE place to live. Now, as to WHY it happened. I think it was a culmination of a lot of different things. And, you can't just blame it on Columbine.

I personally have been trying to come to terms with my experiences in school and I can tell you it goes back to kindergarten. And in many ways I have to reserve a little place in my heart for those who have suffered emotionally as I did. As for Dylan and Eric - I can't extract them from that little corner of my heart because of the consequences of whatever it was that they felt. To me you don't just write off someone as being a bad seed when, clearly, society had a hand in creating that monster. I think that the desire to do so says a lot about how society works today.

If you are constantly treated in a heartless manor you will eventually become heartless. When people don't care about you, you will eventually stop caring about people. To me, this is just an extreme form.


Thank you Midema.I have the feeling that you may have gotten it close to the same level I did.Most people who haven't will never, ever understand.That's just the way of it.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 6:38 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
sergeant hartman wrote:
I'm not mocking anyone.  I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre.  Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?

You asked her why she "loved" them but didn't love you. I don't recall her ever saying she "loved" them and I can't help but think you are trying to take a jab at her for being a "fan". Arguing your point is fine but you don't need to mock other members and make them feel uncomfortable by making comments like that. Just because someone sympathizes with Dylan and Eric more than the other victims doesn't mean they "love" them. And remember, everyone is entitled their own opinions.

If she did say she loved them, then I apologize.


I did say that Jen but thank you.I am aware that Sargent doesn't think much of people like me or other fans.I very much appreciate you keeping such a close eye out for any potential mistreatment on here.That means a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 6:51 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
I'm not mocking anyone.  I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre.  Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?

Not to me.To me, the fact they actually went through this and died at 17 and 18 and others died so young puts their suffering above mine.They must have been suffering incredibly and went over the edge to do this in spite of everything and die themselves .E &D have been a tremendous help and comfort to me since I was very young.There are times in the last several years that I felt I wouldn't have made it through without them.I'm far from being the only kid who they have helped and who has found in them a source of emotional comfort and strength.Judge me if you like.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 7:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


I am aware that Sargent doesn't think much of people like me

False.

Quote :
or other fans.

I think the comments from some of them on Mr. Mauser's Youtube page are enough for me to not care for them.


Last edited by sergeant hartman on Mon May 05, 2014 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 7:25 pm

Some of the comments have been unprovoked and it was cruel.But some of the supporters of the Mausers are as rabid as any fan.I've seen them start trouble before by trashing talking fans when they weren't saying anything.Then of course the fans came over and retaliated. Some of those people followed me around from video to video and harassed me for two weeks and I wasn't saying anything about the victims.That's far from the only time I've been harassed just for being a sympathizer either.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 7:29 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Some of the comments  have been unprovoked and it was cruel.

Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 7:33 pm

What about what these people did to me and other sympathizers when it was unprovoked?

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 7:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What about what these people did to me and other sympathizers when it was unprovoked?

They're assholes or just stupid. Probably both.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 7:45 pm

Depends on what you mean by "unprovoked" and "sympathizer". Obviously being a researcher who tries to understand (as opposed to excuse) Eric and Dylan is different than being someone who says on Tom's tribute to Daniel: "your son was gay and ugly/ he was a bully who deserves to die/ rip Eric and Dylan the heroes glad they killed this nerdy bully".
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 8:23 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


I am aware that Sargent doesn't think much of people like me

False.

Quote :
or other fans.

I think their comments on Mr. Mauser's Youtube page are enough for me to not care for them.

I've been considered a fan. In fact, according to someone I won't mention by name, I was the "2nd biggest fan" on RPG because I made a memorial video for Dylan and Eric, created a poem titled "Fifteen" and stated that I think all 15 were victims. I have never said anything bad about the other 13 victims. I have never said I "love" Dylan or Eric. I have never attacked any of the family members of any of the surviving victims. And when I left a comment on Mr. Mauser's Youtube video that he made addressing the fans I actually asked some of the fans why they were bullying this man who lost his child. I asked them why they were turning into what Dylan and Eric hated most in this world. Didn't Dylan and Eric supposedly hate bullies and if so, why would their "fans" want to be exactly like what they hated.

So, how can you say you don't care for any of the fans and basically insinuate that we are all the same? That was exactly the kind of mindset the people on RPG had. They attacked, made fun of or mocked anyone who even mentioned having sympathy for Dylan and Eric (while a lot of the time they were closet fans themselves). I don't like seeing it here. And regardless of what you may think, we are not all like the worst of the fans who go around thinking we are tough because we are bullying a man who lost his child and we don't all make meme's saying "Eric is God" and I do not think that we should all be viewed as being the same. That is what it feels like you are doing to me.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 8:26 pm

Let me edit my post.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 11:11 pm

Jenn, I think the 'them' sergeant hartman is referring to are the people who are more "fanboy/girl-ish", rather than just someone who is interested in the massacre and relates to them. The ones who cross the line by disrespecting the victims (saying they and the survivors deserved what they got) and pestering their families (sending that facebook message to Sue Petrone), condoning the massacre (wishing the bombs went off so Eric and Dylan could feel successful in their placing of the bags in the cafeteria).
"Columbiners" obviously aren't all the same and you're right, it's not fair to generalize them as being on that level. I don't think that was sergeant's intention.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Mon May 05, 2014 11:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Jenn, I think the 'them' sergeant hartman is referring to are the people who are more "fanboy/girl-ish", rather than just someone who is interested in the massacre and relates to them. The ones who cross the line by disrespecting the victims (saying they and the survivors deserved what they got) and pestering their families (sending that facebook message to Sue Petrone), condoning the massacre (wishing the bombs went off so Eric and Dylan could feel successful in their placing of the bags in the cafeteria).
"Columbiners" obviously aren't all the same and you're right, it's not fair to generalize them as being on that level. I don't think that was sergeant's intention.


I honestly agree with you, gutenfxckintag.

Everyone just needs to think out their posts, or double check them before hitting "send", and this is in reference to everyone, not just the people in this thread.

Also, this applies "in reverse" as well, meaning:

I suggest that people should re-read others' posts more often than they do, to be certain they understand what has been stated instead of skimming and half-reading and running with this half baked idea about what they just skimmed/half-read, which happens more than most would like to admit.

And if there is any confusion or misunderstandings, in my opinion, they need to be addressed by asking questions instead of making assumptions and running with them.

This forum has had more than enough of that.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue May 06, 2014 5:21 pm

I am not the person who sent the fb message to Sue Petrone but I do remember it.The person's intent was not to harass her.The person was horrified at the destroying of the crosses and trees and saw it as a direct slap in the face to the H & K families and they did not like or agree with that so they expressed their disagreement.Think what you want of that but the intent was not to harass.


I have talked to many other fans or sympathizers over the years and you wouldn't believe what they were put through by the people in their schools.One girl , who is very critical of the victims and devoted to E &D had a 16 yr old brother who killed himself with a shot gun and left a note saying it was because of the bullying he was going through at school.She found the body so she is very bitter.
They see the victims as being just like the ones who oppressed them for so long.Feel free to judge them, but often there is more going on there than "Oh, those are just awful people."


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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue May 06, 2014 5:30 pm

So many of the people w on the old forum were just total______________! I was harassed by some of those people badly.There was once a whole thread on there posting things I had said from another site and making fun of me, calling me names and talking about how stupid and worthless I was and I wasn't saying anything about the victims and I wasn't on that board and I had done nothing to those people. It got very nasty and went on anout a week.I was harassed on You Tube by Ms.Dollhouse Pink, Mary and CRS 1988 and one of Ms.Dollhouses good 14 year old friends although I can't remember her user name now.I believe there was a bullying atmosphere on that board.A couple of the people who made fun of me then here now but this board has a different atmosphere so I am willing to forgive.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue May 06, 2014 6:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
So many of the people w on the old forum were just  total______________! I was harassed by some of those people badly.There was once a whole thread on there posting things I had said from another site and making fun of me, calling me names and talking about how stupid and worthless I was and I wasn't saying anything about the victims and I wasn't on that board and I had done nothing to those people. It got very nasty and went on anout a week.I was harassed on You Tube by Ms.Dollhouse Pink, Mary and CRS 1988 and one of Ms.Dollhouses good 14 year old friends although I can't remember her user name now.I believe there was a bullying atmosphere on that board.A couple of the people who made fun of me then  here now but this board has a different atmosphere so I am willing to forgive.

Ms. Dollhouse Pink signed up to this forum. She tried doing it anonymously but I knew it was her. She signed up just to post in a thread that I should "Dylan Klebold" myself and then she had her little sidekick MnM harass me through Abuse Complaints. People like that have no life, are pathetic and are closet fans themselves but are so ashamed of it that they need to make fun of other fans to feel better about themselves. 95% of RPG were fans but just wouldn't admit it. And believe me, I know about the harassment that went on there. I was harassed from the minute I signed up on there all because I introduced myself saying that I sympathize with Dylan and Eric or something along those lines.

Then, after I opened this forum they continued to harass me so badly that I had to file police complaints against 3 of them and contact hidemyass about 30 times to get their real IP addresses that they were trying to mask with a hidemyass IP and contact Internet service providers such as Comcast and fax them over copies of the police complaints I filed on their IP addresses. And they weren't just harassing me about being a fan anymore they were threatening to post personal information like my real name, address and pictures they had stolen from mine and Ivan's Facebook's that they had altered. Ivan and I had to leave Facebook altogether at one point because they kept harassing us. I mean it is at a point where I think they need serious psychological help. I could see if they send one or two messages cuz they didn't like us or whatever but this has been going on since before Ivan and I opened this place.

There was this one member (who was apparently a school teacher). A school teach who should be trying to prevent bullying but was the worst of all of them. Her and another member from RPG hacked my Facebook, stole private conversations and posted them all over RPG while doing other atrocious things like making fun of Ivan for his house burning down. The owner at the time (of RPG) allowed them to post links to Ivan's personal Facebook page and personal photos they had stolen. He claimed (the owner) that he wanted a "self moderated forum" but basically what that meant was that people could merciless harass and bullying people not only on the forum but off of it too. The only time he ever stepped in was when somebody harassed or threatened him.

So anyways, I understand what you went through on RPG because I went through very similar things and I can assure you that nothing like that will ever happen to you here.

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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue May 06, 2014 6:48 pm

I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time. You shouldn't judge him so harshly. Right?
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue May 06, 2014 6:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
So many of the people w on the old forum were just  total______________! I was harassed by some of those people badly.There was once a whole thread on there posting things I had said from another site and making fun of me, calling me names and talking about how stupid and worthless I was and I wasn't saying anything about the victims and I wasn't on that board and I had done nothing to those people. It got very nasty and went on anout a week.I was harassed on You Tube by Ms.Dollhouse Pink, Mary and CRS 1988 and one of Ms.Dollhouses good 14 year old friends although I can't remember her user name now.I believe there was a bullying atmosphere on that board.A couple of the people who made fun of me then  here now but this board has a different atmosphere so I am willing to forgive.

Ms. Dollhouse Pink signed up to this forum. She tried doing it anonymously but I knew it was her. She signed up just to post in a thread that I should "Dylan Klebold" myself and then she had her little sidekick MnM harass me through Abuse Complaints. People like that have no life, are pathetic and are closet fans themselves but are so ashamed of it that they need to make fun of other fans to feel better about themselves. 95% of RPG were fans but just wouldn't admit it. And believe me, I know about the harassment that went on there. I was harassed from the minute I signed up on there all because I introduced myself saying that I sympathize with Dylan and Eric or something along those lines.

Then, after I opened this forum they continued to harass me so badly that I had to file police complaints against 3 of them and contact hidemyass about 30 times to get their real IP addresses that they were trying to mask with a hidemyass IP and contact Internet service providers such as Comcast and fax them over copies of the police complaints I filed on their IP addresses. And they weren't just harassing me about being a fan anymore they were threatening to post personal information like my real name, address and pictures they had stolen from mine and Ivan's Facebook's that they had altered. Ivan and I had to leave Facebook altogether at one point because they kept harassing us. I mean it is at a point where I think they need serious psychological help. I could see if they send one or two messages cuz they didn't like us or whatever but this has been going on since before Ivan and I opened this place.

There was this one member (who was apparently a school teacher). A school teach who should be trying to prevent bullying but was the worst of all of them. Her and another member from RPG hacked my Facebook, stole private conversations and posted them all over RPG while doing other atrocious things like making fun of Ivan for his house burning down. The owner at the time (of RPG) allowed them to post links to Ivan's personal Facebook page and personal photos they had stolen. He claimed (the owner) that he wanted a "self moderated forum" but basically what that meant was that people could merciless harass and bullying people not only on the forum but off of it too. The only time he ever stepped in was when somebody harassed or threatened him.

So anyways, I understand what you went through on RPG because I went through very similar things and I can assure you that nothing like that will ever happen to you here.


Wow,that is amazing.Talk about crossing a line.I'm sorry all that happened to you.I am not sorry that board is gone.I am sure that others feel the same.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue May 06, 2014 6:54 pm

Paintitblack: Saying "your family is full of awful people" is not simply "expressing disagreement", it was meant to harass. I had seen that person's tumblr page. I never said you were the one who sent those messages to Mrs. Petrone either. Why is it okay for people to pester the mother of a victim, but not okay to not consider Eric and Dylan victims of the tragedy?

There is no justification for harming other people due to one's devotion or whatever you want to call it to Eric and Dylan. Having a mere interest in them is a different thing. Being attracted to and relating to them is a different thing. However, being bullied is not a reason to harm others. Verbally, through the Internet, or with weapons.

Why are you condeming people who have, out of ignorance, blamed the H and K families for anything in the massacre but giving a pass to those (like the girl with the brother) who have, out of their own ignorance, assumed the victims were bullies? Your logic is confusing to me.

As for the people who bullied you on the old forum, I recall some of those names. I wasn't a member if the forum, I just lurked from time to time when it was active. Maybe I'll check the archive to see what was said by them. The moderation should be much better here though so you probably won't have to deal with anyone who cyber bullied you there on this new forum.
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PostSubject: Re: 13 victims or 15 victims?   Tue May 06, 2014 7:09 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time.  You shouldn't judge him so harshly.  Right?

He is only "anti-bully" when he is talking about how HE was bullied in junior high school 30 years ago. He isn't "anti-bully" when he is the one bullying.

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