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 Society or Gun Control?

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Mj2beat



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PostSubject: Society or Gun Control?   Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:43 pm

Today a new shooting took place in Purde University at Indiana, leaving one person killed and another in custody. Last month took place another shooting at Colorado. This incidents are each day more often and everyone is talking about Gun Control and laws, many leaving the problem to the government. In a school essay a classmate and friend of mine explained that this serious problem (that are having especially the United States), must not be find a solution only in Gun Control, but in the values that the adults teach to the kids at the school and home. I've always thought that this is not only problem of the government and laws, but of the society in general, that not respect different people, not include them and many times humiliate them. Many people are looking a solution in the first thing that should be the last, while in the schools and sometimes the families, bullying and violence are still there, with many kids suffering and becoming antisocial individuals that eventually take them to do something so horrible as a murder, starting to buying a gun that they could find everywhere with the guns more difficult to get or not.

¿Do you think that this serious problem should be solved first with Gun Control or for the society and values in general? because many are forgetting that not only banning the guns or changing the laws would stop this people and incidents, in schools, universities and other public places, that now are taking place once a month.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:48 pm

This is a really good question and an important one. I think gun control on its own would not only be ineffective, it's probably next to impossible to get meaningful gun control legislation in the U.S. That does not mean I don't support gun control; I certainly do. I just think that addressing "the society and values in general" is the way to go. Either task seems massive at this point, but if Hercules cleaned the Aegean stables...
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:33 pm

People need more mental health help, instead they feel ostracized from society, and it shouldn't be that way. Gun control wouldn't help, people still have guns, and they will use them. These shootings will never stop. At least in this case it was just one death.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:50 pm

Gun control can't stop something like mass-murder. With the knowledge that I gained in Grade 10 science class, and access to the internet, I could synthesize high explosives. Just look at the Middle East. Yeesh. Moreover, the United States isn't the only country in the world with liberal gun laws. I live in Canada and it's trivially easy to buy the same scary-looking rifles that the American left is clamoring about, but we don't have many mass shootings. Neither does Switzerland, New Zealand or the Czech Republic.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:18 am

@halcyon wrote:
I live in Canada and it's trivially easy to buy the same scary-looking rifles that the American left is clamoring about, but we don't have many mass shootings. Neither does Switzerland, New Zealand or the Czech Republic.

Good points.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:19 am

Today is January 22nd. How many shootings have happened so far this year and how many of them were in America?

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:21 am

None that I know of.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:24 am

It looks like there has been 5 school shootings in America so far this year. That is insane.

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:32 am

Grand total of one death. Honestly, you Americans freak out over nothing.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:44 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Grand total of one death. Honestly, you Americans freak out over nothing.

You think that even an attempted shooting is "nothing"? You don't find anything wrong with 5 school shooting attempts in less than 3 weeks a big deal? You think that it isn't a big deal because there was only one death? Hmm, I guess I just don't think that way. To me, it seems like it just keeps getting worse. And I never said I was American, I was just saying the shootings seem to be the worst in America.

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:54 am

@Jenn wrote:
It looks like there has been 5 school shootings in America so far this year. That is insane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

Yeah, and that's just school shootings. Gun violence in America is beyond appalling.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:30 am

just one death or 20 is still something to worry about, I didn't know that this year has been 5 shootings, this is really insane, I bet the. people is going to the school afraid of something like this and it shouldnt be. Of course that the news are now hiding an important number of shootings because since December any kind of that news was on tv till yesterday and maybe is because is not something so big like the Sandy Hook shooting or because of something else deeper and is good to inform ourselves about this and start with a solution soon, even if you don't live in the United States because I don't live there but I can see someone trying to copy or follow those shooters in my own country or in another one and is really serious and that personally worries me. 5 shootings this month are just not normal and. is really serious even if just one person died

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:12 am

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:30 am

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This says it all :/
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:03 am

Well of course there are more handgun related deaths in the U.S. There's more handguns! No gun rights advocate has denied that. What concerns me is what gun control does to the overall murder rate (I haven't been convinced that it has a negligible effect either way) and the morality of gun control. Gun control turns peaceful people into criminals. I don't think that it is moral to incarcerate peaceful people. If you want to strip someone of their ability to purchase guns, you should be able to prove that they are dangerous.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:09 am

I think, it is important to make a difference between general gun-related violence and mass-shootings.
Just because the USA have much of both, it doesn't mean they are the same.

Germany has very strict gun laws and very less gun-related violence. But you know what? We are the third ranked country among those with the most school shootings.

The Czech Republic and Switzerland have many guns and they are easily accessible. But they don't have many mass-shootings. In fact I never heard of a mass shooting in the Czech Republic and only of once in Switzerland.

Finland has the third-highest number of gun owners in the world (right after USA and Switzerland), but they have very few gun-related violence. They have, however, a remarkable number of mass-shootings.

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:19 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Well of course there are more handgun related deaths in the U.S. There's more handguns! No gun rights advocate has denied that. What concerns me is what gun control does to the overall murder rate (I haven't been convinced that it has a negligible effect either way) and the morality of gun control. Gun control turns peaceful people into criminals. I don't think that it is moral to incarcerate peaceful people.  If you want to strip someone of their ability to purchase guns, you should be able to prove that they are dangerous.
There being more handguns is irrelevant. You have just said that more guns would make people peaceful, when you contradicted your statement by adding that there's a higher death toll because there are more guns. So, please explain how the availability to purchase weaponry, which has been proven to be the main cause for all the deaths in the U.S is going to make the world "peaceful"?

Are you seriously suggesting that guns are not dangerous? They are incredibly dangerous and don't be saying to me now that it's the people behind the guns that cause the crimes. Without the easy availability of such savage and deadly weaponry, there would be less deaths in the U.S. Period.

It's easy for someone else to voice their opinion on this and act like it isn't a big deal when they don't even come from the same country.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:54 am

I think that society may benefit from stricter regulations concerning gun ownership as well as making the access to the heavier type of guns that much more difficult. I think that the underlying problem is just that much harder, though, because we're talking generations of people who've always had a right to bear arms and who've grown up thinking that these are perfectly normal things to have in your house. In comparison: I grew up knowing the military/police carried weapons and that some criminals and people like huntsmen had access to them as well. But it wasn't a normal thing at all, still isn't in my country, and so I've never even held a gun or seen it outside of movies/police carriers. It is baffling to me to hear how many people view gun ownership as a basic and fundamental right to their existence. I think that you'd have to change the way people see gun ownership in order for there to be a lasting and correct approach to gun control. You'd have to raise your children similar to the way I was raised, really, and completely alter the way society speaks about guns at large.

Of course, one other component is the question of what to do with 'the mentally ill' (I loathe using the term because it's so umbrella, so bear with me?) and their right to bear arms.. when do you decide that someone is not in a sound and healthy state of mind, and can the yes or no to gun ownership even be decided through the measurements of mental illness we currently possess? The only mass shooting I can recall that happened in my country happened because someone suffering from mental illness took up arms and went to a shopping mall to randomly shoot at people before killing himself, so the system obviously isn't foolproof enough to deal with the warning signs some people do give off before they commit such an act. I think you'd have to implement a new approach and categorisation of mental illness in connection with gun ownership that'd eventually lead to some sort of non-detailed registry gun sellers would be able to check upon seeing someone's ID. (I have some problems with my own idea here, but I think that there may be some merit in the thought all the same..)
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:18 pm

@Ivan wrote:
@halcyon wrote:
Well of course there are more handgun related deaths in the U.S. There's more handguns! No gun rights advocate has denied that. What concerns me is what gun control does to the overall murder rate (I haven't been convinced that it has a negligible effect either way) and the morality of gun control. Gun control turns peaceful people into criminals. I don't think that it is moral to incarcerate peaceful people.  If you want to strip someone of their ability to purchase guns, you should be able to prove that they are dangerous.
There being more handguns is irrelevant. You have just said that more guns would make people peaceful, when you contradicted your statement by adding that there's a higher death toll because there are more guns. So, please explain how the availability to purchase weaponry, which has been proven to be the main cause for all the deaths in the U.S ...

But why then have other countries where guns are equally easily accessible, significant lower rates in gun-related deaths?
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:01 pm

Well the swizz can carry an AR with them in public... Mot criminals are cowards and don't want to go after someone who may shoot back.... The problem is that kids are not taught gun safety, or the proper way to handle a firearm. Even most adults don't know how to handle a firearm... The rule of thumb is always assume that a gun is loaded, never point it at anything that you don't intend to destroy or kill.
My kids are 10 and 11 and have been around guns most of their lives, they have been out shooting and have fired many guns, I even bought them their own pistols for when they are 18 they can carry them. I feel more comfortable handing my kids a gun then some adults... I even have a few adults that are not allowed to handle any of my weapons anymore because they did something stupid. If you want someone to blame look in the mirrors and at the people who don't want kids to have any gun training what so ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:36 pm

@deathmedic wrote:
The problem is that kids are not taught gun safety, or the proper way to handle a firearm.

Teaching people gun safety won't do anything to curb gun-violence. It might help with accidental gun in juries, but it wouldn't do a thing to reduce acts of criminal gun violence. As it happens, a great many kids in the U.S. are taught gun safety. In terms of Columbine, if you watch "Rampart Range" both Phil Duran and Mark Manes seem to know quite a lot about firearms and "gun safety" -- I'd almost bet Duran had been around guns a lot. Didn't stop them from contributing to NBK. Eric had been around guns his whole life and I'm sure Wayne taught him gun safety; he studied gun magazines and etc... The idea that you can teach people to be safe with guns and this will eliminate or reduce gun violence is untrue.

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:42 pm

Hale-Bopp wrote:


But why then have other countries where guns are equally easily accessible, significant lower rates in gun-related deaths?

Because they live in less alienating societies. In America intelligence is generally low and empathy almost non-existent. People in America aren't taught about family and community; they are taught to "kick ass" and to fear and hate anything that they don't understand. America also has an epidemic of psychotropic drug-use, poverty, media brainwashing, bullying, lying, and almost incessant warfare against other countries. If you don't live here it's probably hard to understand how fucked-up this society actually is in many ways. It's almost like living in a Klingon society minus the intelligence, tradition, and honor.  Of course the real underlying reason for gun violence and paranoia in America is racism. I think Michael Moore hit the nail right on the head in Bowling for Columbine as far as why gun violence in America is so out of control.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:07 pm

Regarding gun control, this is a post that I made on the old board. I posted it literally a few days shy of a year ago:

****
Being a lifelong U.S. citizen, and looking back at history-----and looking outside my window right now, and seeing other illegal "things" being overall freely sold, bought, and used, all I can say about this is: they can "outlaw" specific firearms, or every single type of firearm here, and all of it will just "go underground". (They're already sold "underground" as it is!!). Despite any laws against the sale, purchase, or use of them, they will still be manufactured, sold, purchased, and used. Just like every single illegal drug here still is.

Hypothetically speaking; even if they could miraculously find every firearm here, confiscate them, and destroy them, people will use whatever else they can to harm others if they are so inclined. I personally do not like the fact that this is so, but it is.
****

There is nothing that is going to stop anyone from getting a gun in this country if they really want one. The laws to own and carry them can be rearranged, changed, ad infinitum, but if you really want one and don't fit the "legal" criteria, you can still get one. In a second.



Also, gustopoet, your above post is sheer brilliance.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:33 am

gustopoet wrote:
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The problem is that kids are not taught gun safety, or the proper way to handle a firearm.  

Teaching people gun safety won't do anything to curb gun-violence. It might help with accidental gun in juries, but it wouldn't do a thing to reduce acts of criminal gun violence.  As it happens, a great many kids in the U.S. are taught gun safety. In terms of Columbine, if you watch "Rampart Range" both Phil Duran and Mark Manes seem to know quite a lot about firearms and "gun safety" -- I'd almost bet Duran had been around guns a lot. Didn't stop them from contributing to NBK. Eric had been around guns his whole life and I'm sure Wayne taught him gun safety; he studied gun magazines and etc...  The idea that you can teach people to be safe with guns and this will eliminate or reduce gun violence is untrue.

 

This!

And also: Good post thedragonrampant!(as usual). As a fellow Dutchie I know what you mean.

I'm sure that anyone knows the feeling here that sometimes you can be so uncontrollably angry with something or someone. Or to put in in Dylan's words: Wrath. If you have the right to carry arms, you can decide in a splitsecond to get your gun and just shoot somebody, instead of punching them in the face(or somewhere else;)). If you don't carry that waepon, you'll have to think about it first. Very likely you don't want to go through with it.

I'm not the person to post a lot of words. First of all, my english writing sucks and I'm just not that well adequate with speaking my mind as most of you guys, but I have a lot of thoughts about this subject. At home, I can rand about it for hours, sort of speak.(But I will keep it short here, as usual;)

Even on this board there are clearly people who are devided on the mather. So, it must be nearly impossible to resolve the problem on state and federal level. That's just the case with everything that must be decided in the U.S. A goverment must always deal with a country that is split in two. In every country people have different opinions about a lot of things,  but in the U.S. it seems that left-, and rightwinged americans are a million miles apart. There seem to be no middle ground. There is is this gaping whole between the urban part of the U.S. and the countryside.(I know, I am generalizing a lot, but you get my point). It's almost like the civilwar never ended.

For us as foreigners it's just incomprehensible that you would teach your kids how to shoot a gun. But I can understand that trying to deny that guns are there isn't the solution either. Sue Klebold tried that with her kids and clearly that didn't work. Not judging btw, because I don't like my kids playing with toyweapons either and I love her liberal thinking and input right in the heart of Republican-country
Hale-Bob has a good point and so has Michael Moore: Why America? But that seems to apply for a lot of political issues. Why doesn't the correctional system work? In the Netherlands softdrugs are sort of legal, but I just heard that our drug abuse is way less then in the U.S. But that's another issue, for another time. Just saying that the U.S. system seems to fail here and there. And because of the know-it-all approach towards the rest of the world, the U.S. lives in a glass house.

Maybe you can't prevent guns from going underground, but imo it all starts with providing your country with valid laws. That's just the first principle. Than you have to find ways to upholding those laws. A little Trias Politica here Razz 

I have a feeling I'm not making a lot of sense here, but I'm not that good in discussing things on the internet. Just giving you guys my two cents here.

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:37 pm

@tfsa47090 wrote:

Also, gustopoet, your above post is sheer brilliance.

Thanks, tfsa47090, I appreciate the compliment.  Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:41 pm

@tragedy79 wrote:

Maybe you can't prevent guns from going underground, but imo it all starts with providing your country with valid laws. That's just the first principle. Than you have to find ways to upholding those laws. A little Trias Politica here Razz 

I have a feeling I'm not making a lot of sense here, but I'm not that good in discussing things on the internet. Just giving you guys my two cents here.

You're making plenty of sense. One really important thing you point out is that any law has to be enforced. That's a problem in itself. It's easy to make laws sometimes but hard to see that they are meaningfully enforced, especially in a country that has such a huge problem with prison over-population and one that already incarcerates such a massive percentage of its overall population.

Another great point that you make is "that it is almost like the Civil War never ended." That, my friend, is exactly the case. And behind that is an acute racism that has split this country since its inception. The founding of a constitutional democracy that also advocated legal slavery is where the seeds of the American Civil War were planted and the aftermath, the so-called Jim Crow era, set the stage for suburban "escape" and urban decay that bred a culture of fear, that in turn led to an increase in gun violence, which also, in turn, led to white people trying to build "safer" communities to shelter themselves from the unsavory blacks, which in turn led to adolescent alienation such as that seen in the suburb of Littleton, which in turn led two teenagers to arm themselves with easily procured guns and homemade bombs to try to burn the whole thing down.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:52 pm

I truly believe (yes I know this is not the popular opinion in America anymore) that guns are not the problem. These kids are crying out for help and no one cares about them. I am willing to bet that a lot of these shooters never would have done it if they felt they were loved and supported both by peers and family members.

I do think school are doing a better job of addressing bullying in recent years and I think eventually we will see results in a positive direction.

Again not a popular opinion, but when you take God out of schools bad things are going to happen. This is my opinion and I know al ot of people will probably try to argue it. I'm just going to say now that I am not going to argue about it and I hope that everyone will respect my opinion in this matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:54 pm

gustopoet wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Maybe you can't prevent guns from going underground, but imo it all starts with providing your country with valid laws. That's just the first principle. Than you have to find ways to upholding those laws. A little Trias Politica here Razz 

I have a feeling I'm not making a lot of sense here, but I'm not that good in discussing things on the internet. Just giving you guys my two cents here.

You're making plenty of sense. One really important thing you point out is that any law has to be enforced. That's a problem in itself. It's easy to make laws sometimes but hard to see that they are meaningfully enforced, especially in a country that has such a huge problem with prison over-population and one that already incarcerates such a massive percentage of its overall population.

Maybe it's time to legalize softdrugs, so not every person with a couple of grams of Cannabis in possesion is taken into custody Razz It takes up a lot af space, money and manpower.

Another great point that you make is "that it is almost like the Civil War never ended." That, my friend, is exactly the case. And behind that is an acute racism that has split this country since its inception. The founding of a constitutional democracy that also advocated legal slavery is where the seeds of the American Civil War were planted and the aftermath, the so-called Jim Crow era, set the stage for suburban "escape" and urban decay that bred a culture of fear, that in turn led to an increase in gun violence, which also, in turn, led to white people trying to build "safer" communities to shelter themselves from the unsavory blacks, which in turn led to adolescent alienation such as that seen in the suburb of Littleton, which in turn led two teenagers to arm themselves with easily procured guns and homemade bombs to try to burn the whole thing down.

Hmmm...You are making a very valid point here. Never looked at it this way, so I'm defenitely going to look into this more.

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PostSubject: Re: Society or Gun Control?   Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:29 am

gustopoet wrote:
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Also, gustopoet, your above post is sheer brilliance.

Thanks, tfsa47090, I appreciate the compliment.  Very Happy 

You're very welcome.


gustopoet wrote:

You're making plenty of sense. One really important thing you point out is that any law has to be enforced. That's a problem in itself. It's easy to make laws sometimes but hard to see that they are meaningfully enforced, especially in a country that has such a huge problem with prison over-population and one that already incarcerates such a massive percentage of its overall population.

Precisely, and that is why I said what I did in my post (along with my post from the old board that I shared here). At this present time, they can restructure any law they want, create new laws that are incredibly stringent, outright ban/outlaw specific weapons, etc. It won't matter to someone who REALLY wants one (regardless of the reason). All they have to do is get in touch with a rogue who has contacts (or is actually in possession of illegal weapons themselves), and they'll have one (or more) in a matter of days, if not hours. I've seen this happen, and I have known about this happening way too many times to count. On a personal level, I don't agree with any of this, but it is an irrefutable reality in this country.
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