Connection

New to this board & recent transfer to suburban Denver.

Although I had basic knowledge of the Columbine massacre in '99, my interest was limited by a hectic schedule of raising a young family and developing career, despite my shock & horror of the events. Upon my recent transfer, unknowingly I chose a home a mere 5 miles from CHS, I researched the topic out of interest & in the past few months have become intrigued by the depths of the event and have spent countless hours digging deeper into the available information online.

In retrospect I think my newly found interest is spurred by my own life experiences. My senior year in HS we had a student commit suicide in the classroom (I was down the hall & didn't hear the shot). The parallels are frightening. The student in my graduating class of similar size & demographics was a drama student that brought a sawed off shotgun under a trench coat & took his life in front of other students in the drama class/on stage. Depression & acceptance drove him & thankfully he took a different approach than H&K. The summer after gradation a second student from his click acted out a game of D&D type role play & committed a murder suicide.

I'll note that this was obviously a different generation (mid 80's), but their was very little bullying in our school & I can speak for myself & others that the intolerance for bullying was managed in part by a few jocks/popular kids which is opposite of what occurred @ CHS.

As a parent of two, the Columbine massacre hit home with each of my children. My daughter the eldest is admittedly in the group usually classified as "mean girls". In her sophomore year they ostracized a "fringe friend" who then put out her own "hit list" that my daughter was near the top of. Upon reports of her threats of revenge the next day in school, the school & authorities acted swiftly. The young girl had a host of officials @ her home & was held by authorities & never allowed back to the school. Although the school & authorities acted swiftly, I was amazed by the passive reactions of the students & parents, my daughter included.

The Scott family had visited my kids school & to this day posters & annual recognition of Columbine are a fixture on campus. This particular high school from an administration standpoint embraced what was learned from the tragic events in '99, but sadly the student body is a mini version of what I understand was the culture @ Columbine.

My son's experience in high school (currently a junior) has been different in that despite being a star athlete/honors student & very attractive young man.. he was the target of personal attacks thru middle school & still not embraced by many due to his stance against drinking/drugs & outspoken issue with the lack of respect the kids show to each other. In my generation he'd be the most respected & popular kid in his class.. in this generation he struggles to enjoy his high school years due to his inability to identify with the immature & disrespectful nature of today's youth. If not for an outlet of sports, I fear he would have been a candidate for depression & isolation & even now he struggles at times to deal with the culture to the point where he's truly effected.

My son & I visited the Columbine memorial on his first weekend here in the Denver area. It was moving to say the least. His knowledge of the event is strong from having the Scott family speak at his school (He personally spoke with Craig Scott in detail) & his schools dedication to the Scott family message. We spent several minutes at each of the victims plaques & shared our personal thoughts at the messages. I have cried once or twice since I was a teenager.. within minutes I was struggling to hold back tears @ the memorial. For those familiar with Mr. Rohrbough's comments on Daniel's plaque, I'm sure you can appreciate my emotions as I'm reading those with my own son.

Awareness is the key to prevention, my thoughts and prayers go out to all that were/are effected by the events of 4-20-99, and hope that some positives can be found for the future.

Welcome, Father. The story about your classmate killing himself makes me very sad. Yes, its good that he didn't kill anyone else but how tragic that his life was lost. I wish he hadn't gotten to that point and was still here. It is also refreshing to me that unlike most living in the area you don't seem to hate E and D. Maybe it is because you aren't local but for whatever reason its refreshing to see.

Thx PIB,

Yeah, new to Denver so likely a different take than those who were natives & dealt with things closer.

I'll admit I had deep anger for Eric & true sadness for Dylan. I'm convinced Dylan would have eventually grown out of his struggles & settled into a promising future. Hard to know it when you are so young, but the roles are usually vastly different as we get older.. most of the neatest people I know flew under the radar in high school & blossomed late.

I feel the majority of "bad seeds" were biologically based, I highly doubt Eric would have chosen his "draw" in life.

I guess I'm at the "forgive but never forget" stage at this point.

Indeed my classmates situation was tragic, I never got to know him as he transferred in his junior year with several hundred other kids from a merger of schools. I knew a lot of his theatre & punker friends from classes & they were cool.. different but cool. The young man had just had the lead in the school play that opened the night before & I remember everyone being shocked. His friends said it was due to social struggles/feeling accepted. I just didn't feel it or see it on campus, but I never walked in his shoes.

Perception is reality, people see things different ways. Sadly our country is far behind when it comes to mental health awareness.

I will share that my inner hate for individuals in the law enforcement/JeffCo will never get a hall pass from me. The post 4/20/99 actions of John Stone & co are utterly disgusting.

Father,
I have to disagree with the viewpoint that Eric was a bad seed even though at the very end, it seems he saw himself that way.
I see him as an angry, sad, lost, lonely, depressed ,intelligent boy.
I do not agree and doubt I will ever agree that he was a psychopath as he has been posthumously diagnosed. I think on the contrary he was more sensitive than average underneath. That he felt things very deeply. I think that's part of why he got started on the path he did. He couldn't get over things or let them go. Most of all he was just a kid. The brain doesn't even stop forming until your early 20's.I feel he was too young to be stuck with a label.
I hate what he and Dylan did and all the grief and pain it caused and the lives taken from the victims but I have tremendous sympathy for them.
You do however raise an interesting point. Everyone hates and looks down on psychopaths but shouldn't we pity them too? After all, its not like they became that way on purpose .There is nothing they can do about it. It's not their faults. Nobody can choose to be one or make themselves be psychopathic. There is supposedly no drug or therapy that can help them. It's beyond their control. To me, it seems like a miserable fate even if they can get away with things and not feel guilt or regret.

As far as your classmate goes he must have felt such utter hopelessness. The teen suicide rate is higher than adults and I believe that is because many teens live so much in the now and are impulsive and often have trouble seeing a bigger picture.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Thx PIB,

Yeah, new to Denver so likely a different take than those who were natives & dealt with things closer.

I'll admit I had deep anger for Eric & true sadness for Dylan.  I'm convinced Dylan would have eventually grown out of his struggles & settled into a promising future.  Hard to know it when you are so young, but the roles are usually vastly different as we get older..  most of the neatest people I know flew under the radar in high school & blossomed late.

I feel the majority of "bad seeds" were biologically based, I highly doubt Eric would have chosen his "draw" in life.  

I guess I'm at the "forgive but never forget" stage at this point.  

Indeed my classmates situation was tragic, I never got to know him as he transferred in his junior year with several hundred other kids from a merger of schools.  I knew a lot of his theatre & punker friends from classes & they were cool..  different but cool.  The young man had just had the lead in the school play that opened the night before & I remember everyone being shocked.  His friends said it was due to social struggles/feeling accepted.  I just didn't feel it or see it on campus, but I never walked in his shoes.

Perception is reality, people see things different ways.  Sadly our country is far behind when it comes to mental health awareness.

I will share that my inner hate for individuals in the law enforcement/JeffCo will never get a hall pass from me.  The post 4/20/99 actions of John Stone & co are utterly disgusting.

Hello and welcome. I think its always great to have someone who comes from a different background or different demographic than the majority of users of any forum, as this always enchances the discussions.

Its hard to say what would E&D do if they just moved on and never commited the massacre. I think both in theory could have at least a moderately sucessfull career in the future, perhaps also family life but I don't want to speculate about the latter.

I would disagree about Eric being simply a bad seed while Dylan being just a guy who was at a dificult age. By all available evidence, it seems that it was Dylan who first started thinking and planning a massacre and that it was he who introduced Eric into the vision, not vice-versa. Eric however was clearly the man who made it all happen, while Dylan perhaps could have remained just with his violent fantasies and never act them out. Then again, erhaps Dylan's problems ould grow deeper in time and he would detonate on his campus much like Cho did at V-tech.

My impression is taht both Eric and Dylan had started out with inherent issues which I deem to be biologically based. Dylan would always be prone to depression imho no matter where he went, while Eric would ahve been agressive, impulsive and a schemenr everywhere he went.

However again, the fact that they with their "biological deck of cards" chose to play the spree-killer and not made some other life-choice was dependant on their environment an dtheir own personal decisions.

I think in the nature vs nurture debates we to often forget that there is an active, conscious life-choice decison making process involved as well.

Sabratha,

well stated.. it took a perfect storm for this to come to fruition. Sadly we can point out several factors & even a few final straws/triggers as to the breaking point. I like your "conscious life-choice" statement.. goes back to the biological factors we both state.

Have you ever read Adam Lanza's posts regarding Eric on the "shocked" mssg board? He leans towards biological/destined theory.

Interesting to read comments from TCM members that stated a lot of them often talked & fantasized about revenge, but it never went past that. If one buys into any "open questions" or conspiracy theories that a few others helped prep the massacre or even were present but backed out.. the discussion goes back full circle as to why E & D carried things out.

PIB,

Yes, EH doesn't seem to be the classic sociopath.. a classic sociopath wouldn't have spent one minute addressing friends/family on the basement tape.

The backlash for the hideous actions will always outweigh the sympathy.. comes in stages, lastly we settle down if ever & begin to think on behalf of the killers.

I personally can't get too drawn into sympathy given the bottom line results/conscious decision reality.

Interesting thought.. I've heard claims Dylan was possibly schizophrenic (I believe Dylan self diagnosed the same?). Could explain how he went to prom a handful of nights prior & did the UArizona dorm room visit & then partnered w/ EH on the 4/20 massacre.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

I like your "conscious life-choice" statement..  goes back to the biological factors we both state.

Have you ever read Adam Lanza's posts regarding Eric on the "shocked" mssg board?  He leans towards biological/destined theory.

I always considered the inherent biological-based personalities of the shooters to be the most important causes behind the shooting. This I stated in very numerous posts on the original Danny Ledonne forums.

I missed most of lanza's posts, as I was just ceasing to be an active forum member when Lanza was just starting to be one.
I do have some rather unsettling evidence that Lanza followed my own posts very carefully though.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Yes, EH doesn't seem to be the classic sociopath..  a classic sociopath wouldn't have spent one minute addressing friends/family on the basement tape..

i'm a proponent of Robert Hare's theory of psychopathy, which treats psychopathy as a spectrum. Moreover psychopathy is actually two correlated, but separate factors.

Eric is not on the farthest possibel end of the psychopathy spectrum for several reasons, one is what you mentioned. Still, he seems to have been very far down the line in comparison to an average person.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

I personally can't get too drawn into sympathy given the bottom line results/conscious decision reality.

I can say the same relly.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Interesting thought..  I've heard claims Dylan was possibly schizophrenic (I believe Dylan self diagnosed the same?).

I stongly doubt this. He certainly had no positive (aka actual "everyday life" hallucinations) symptoms, and he was imho far too socially recognized and capable as a teen for me to assume stron negative symptoms. I could only attempt to defend this theory by saying that this was just a very early stage of schizophrenia, but imho Schizotypal PD is a much moe plausible and accurate speculative theory about Dylan's mental state.

I can't convince anyone who believes that he was a psychopath that he wasn't.
If you have no or little sympathy for E&D I can't change your mind.
I do however disagree with the idea that E &D were doomed to either do something bad or doomed to a bad end.
I feel that if only a few circumstances would have been different in their lives. 15 people would be with us now.
I truly believe that.

I see them as two young kids who didn't understand the full and lasting consequences of what they were doing.
When I was 16 there was so much I didn't know or didn't understand. I made so many stupid mistakes. I consider it only the grace of God that I didn't go down the road E&D and other have. Maybe one isn't likely to feel deep sympathy unless you have been through a lot of abuse at school .
I know people will say they were more than old enough to know better but then I've also seen people in all seriousness wanting 10 to 12 year olds to get the death penalty .

If anyone is interested, here is a good piece of writing I found that expresses many of my own thoughts and feelings on Eric:

"I believe that there were several different reasons as for why Eric was angry at, and strongly resented, the world at large, and especially the society we live in. While there might be some biological causes, it is often not these causes alone that dominate a person’s reasons for feeling anger or hatred towards himself or others.

Eric, naturally, was what we call an “orchid kid” in terms of psychology. That means that he was more sensitive and needed a more stable environment to grow in the best way possible. With the right environment given, he could have grown to blossom beautifully, like an orchid. With the wrong environment given, he wouldn’t be able to grow as well. With this in mind, we can move forward to the actual events in his life that were some among the reasons for his anger and hatred:

What from the start planted the seed of anger in Eric could have been the way he was treated by the people around him, and this seed was able to grow because of the environment in Eric himself. Let me explain that a bit closer: Eric had been moving around a lot and a lot of friendships had been cut off, which deeply affects a child and its state of mind. He had also felt like he was on “the bottom of the food chain” all the time, the bottom of the ladder, like he always had to start off there because he was the new kid, and he also became a prime target for bullying because of several other well-known reasons. This made him insecure and emotionally disturbed; all of which makes anger and hatred, among other negative feelings such as sadness, easier to grow. The world created and then rejected him, and all the residents in the world seemed to be turned against him. It’s easier to get a strike on somebody who doesn’t have his guard up or who is lying down, and already feeling insecure about yourself means that you are more susceptible to whatever hits you from outside.

Us people are naturally, biologically different. And we react differently to things happening around us, even if we, of course, have natural, human ways of reacting to certain things that we share with others. When it comes to how we show these feelings, or which negative feelings get the overtake on us, we are pretty different. What can be generally stated is that negative feelings come out of negative experiences. While some experience main feelings of sadness because of one reason or another, others experience main feelings of anger for the same reasons. Some have violent outbursts because of a naturally more explosive temper, and some become withdrawn and quiet because of a naturally laid-back and reserved personality. One raped person can feel a huge amount of anger towards the rapist, and another raped person can feel a huge amount of hopelessness and sadness; even if these feelings are all rooted in the same main category of feelings. Eric was a person who reacted mainly with anger which later turned to violence, even if he had feelings of sadness, hopelessness, loneliness etc inside of him as well.

Eric hated himself and he admitted to that. He said that he made fun of others who were just like him because he wanted to rip on himself, because he hated himself so much, and that is one thing that is very important to keep in mind while reading about Eric and his thoughts & feelings. Whenever he felt superior, it was because of a feeling of inferiority. When he ripped on others, he wanted to rip on himself. A lot of his hatred and anger grew from the fact that he was insecure about himself. A hatred pointed inwards can sometimes result in hatred pointed outwards, which was the case with Eric.

Another reason that fueled Eric’s anger was perhaps for example the feelings of being an outcast and being a victim of the bullying he suffered for years. Together with this, he thought a lot, and negative feelings make us all think a lot even if we don’t normally. So he thought, a lot, all the time, which he also admitted himself. And as we all know; Eric was a very, very, very intelligent kid, who because of his intelligence was able to see the injustices of the world quite clearly. To quote Ernest Hemingway: “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.“ Eric thought more, he thought deeper and he thought wider than most people do. He also had the ability to view things critically and since he already had a negative attitude towards the world (which is often created by having been treated badly or exposed to negative feelings), he already saw flaws in it initially, which together with his criticism of society only grew. He saw that the world was full of injustices and people who were treating him badly, without anything being done about it. And the world really isn’t a nice place - people just blindly accept the injustices of it. Eric wasn’t going to accept it. He saw what was going on and he had thought too much and realized too much to go back to not caring. Once you see all the injustices in this world you can’t just look away. Being naturally critical towards things is always good, but for Eric’s mental health’s sake, it wasn’t all positive. It fueled his anger and his hatred towards mankind and the society it had created. The society that rejected him. Once again, we’re talking about his negative feelings for himself; and I believe that those were the main reasons for his negative feelings towards others. However, his way of viewing society, I believe was strongly fueled by his intelligence. Him being critical and intelligent was something I believe would have been there in every possible scenario, since intelligence isn’t something that I think he would lack if he would have had the perfect life."

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Sabratha,

well stated..  it took a perfect storm for this to come to fruition.  Sadly we can point out several factors & even a few final straws/triggers as to the breaking point.  I like your "conscious life-choice" statement..  goes back to the biological factors we both state.

Have you ever read Adam Lanza's posts regarding Eric on the "shocked" mssg board?  He leans towards biological/destined theory.

Interesting to read comments from TCM members that stated a lot of them often talked & fantasized about revenge, but it never went past that.  If one buys into any "open questions" or conspiracy theories that a few others helped prep the massacre or even were present but backed out..  the discussion goes back full circle as to why E & D carried things out.

PIB,

Yes, EH doesn't seem to be the classic sociopath..  a classic sociopath wouldn't have spent one minute addressing friends/family on the basement tape.

The backlash for the hideous actions will always outweigh the sympathy..  comes in stages, lastly we settle down if ever & begin to think on behalf of the killers.

I personally can't get too drawn into sympathy given the bottom line results/conscious decision reality.

Interesting thought..  I've heard claims Dylan was possibly schizophrenic (I believe Dylan self diagnosed the same?).  Could explain how he went to prom a handful of  nights prior & did the UArizona dorm room visit & then partnered w/ EH on the 4/20 massacre.

Sabratha:

U know ur psychology that's for sure, like ur style. Lanza following u is both "wow" & creepy.. I bet ur glad that was the limit of correlation.

PIB:

Hope u didn't take it that I can't sympathize w/ EH, I can to limits.. I'm a bottom line personality. Charlie Manson.. Adolph Hitler.. Bad draw of cards in life. Some of us understand why, but end of day they are accountable & the effect of what they did is what society has to manage.


You may not be able to change someone's mind, but you can open it/influence it & that can lead to change. Education has influenced and eventually changed my mind over the years on many a topic.

Proud to say that my teenage son had a RIP reference with a photo of the Columbine Memorial on his Twitter pg tday. He was barely 1 yrs old on 4/20/99 but he's passing frwrd the message of treat others as u want to be treated mentality & keeping alive the memory of Columbine & it's victims.

Father,
I didn't mean that you didn't feel any sympathy .I meant that perhaps to feel the same type of sympathy I do or a lot of Columbiners do, perhaps it is likely that one has to have been or feels like they had the same type of experience E &D did as far as being bullied and outcasted in school. Of course I am sure there are exceptions to that but this seems to have been what I've noticed over the years the most. I admire you willingness to maintain an open mindedness as so many do not.
That's not to say that I condone what they did in any way.
I hate that this tragedy every occurred and I hurt for all the victims and the families.
What a tragedy it is any way that you look at it. Nobody deserved to die that day. Nobody should die the way any of them did both E &D and the victims. I often find the sadness of such a tragedy to be overwhelming. Most Columbiners do not support the actions of the tragedy although there are exceptions, they are the minority.

Good for your son. It is great that he took the time to remember the tragic deaths of so many his own age that he isn't old enough to remember. It seems like a lot of teens can't get interested in something that seems so long ago to them because it doesn't seem relevant to their lives now but I believe that tragedy is always relevant. It is always good to remember someone(s) or feel sympathy for someone(s) no matter how long its been since their passing.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I do however disagree with the idea that E &D were doomed to either do something bad or doomed to a bad end.

I feel that if only a few circumstances would have been different in their lives. 15 people would be with us now.
I truly believe that.

I agree with you on this part. I do not think E&D were doomed to make this massacre. I do think some events in their life linked with their personalities would occur. Dylan would most likley be depressed at some oint in his life and would have phases of magical thinking. Eric would be impulsive to some degree.

But would this automatically mean that they were unable to have relatively normal, mundane lives? Nope. They might have gotten good jobs and both started their own families etc. Columbine was not in any way a forgone conclusion and I always like to stress that their individual life-choice decision could have been different.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I see them as two young kids who didn't understand the full and lasting consequences of what they were doing.

I strongly disagree here. Both knew exactly what they are doign and what are going to be the consequences. Eric in particular was blunt and honest about it.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Maybe one isn't likely to feel deep sympathy unless you have been through a lot of abuse at school.

Hard to say, I went through some abuse and bullying in school, but at younger age than E&D. My HS life was pretty much normal and casual. Its my pre-HS school life that featured some bullying and abuse.
Either way, I could perhaps show some limited sympathy if they just went in and killed the bully or abuser. Planning to kill sevral hundred people, inlcuding freshmen and people they never knew is something else. They also shot a lot of people who were never in any way a threat to them. Kyle Velasquez, Kelly Fleming or Daniel Mauser are perfect examples of people who never did any harm to either Eric or Dylan or any of their friends.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I see them as two young kids who didn't understand the full and lasting consequences of what they were doing.
When I was 16 there was so much I didn't know or didn't understand. I made so many stupid mistakes. I consider it only the grace of God that I didn't go down the road E&D and other have. Maybe one isn't likely to feel deep sympathy unless you have been through a lot of abuse at school .
I know people will say they were more than old enough to know better but then I've also seen people in all seriousness wanting 10 to 12 year olds to get the death penalty .

How do you mean they didn't know what they were doing?

You mean on the day when they improvised? Surely you don't mean they didn't understand that they were about to take as many lives as they could?

They'd planned it for months & months. Talking of coming back and haunting survivors showed they'd thought long and hard about what was about to happen to me.

What I mean is that they were kids, teenagers when they died. When you are that young do you really fully understand just how permanent death is or exactly what it would be like for their parents to have to live with this grief forever? What it really means to remove yourself and others from the planet? Teenagers not adults yet. There is a reason why there are statutory rape laws and such in place to protect them. I firmly believe that there are things you will only learn and understand by life experience. And that is experience they didn't live to get. I'm sure they thought they knew exactly what they were doing. I'm sure they thought they knew everything. I thought I knew everything when I was 16 , 17 years old too. You couldn't have told me much that I would have listened to back then if it conflicted with what I already believed. But now looking back, I can see and understand that my judgments were often clouded. So yes, I do believe that they didn't fully understand what they were doing. Feel free to disagree with me but that is what I believe in my heart.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I see them as two young kids who didn't understand the full and lasting consequences of what they were doing.
When I was 16 there was so much I didn't know or didn't understand. I made so many stupid mistakes. I consider it only the grace of God that I didn't go down the road E&D and other have. Maybe one isn't likely to feel deep sympathy unless you have been through a lot of abuse at school .
I know people will say they were more than old enough to know better but then I've also seen people in all seriousness wanting 10 to 12 year olds to get the death penalty .

How do you mean they didn't know what they were doing?

You mean on the day when they improvised? Surely you don't mean they didn't understand that they were about to take as many lives as they could?

They'd planned it for months & months. Talking of coming back and haunting survivors showed they'd thought long and hard about what was about to happen to me.

All I can say is that its hard to understand their way of thinking if you haven't lived it. I wanted to do the same thing they did as did a close friend of mine and we hated the whole school and wanted it destroyed.
For us, it wasn't just all the people who abused us. Our rage was against the people who either laughed while the abuse was going on or did nothing to help us. I can only imagine that E &D must have thought the same way.To us, they were nearly as much to blame as our direct abusers. I consider it the grace of God that we didn't go through with it. It is a very dark place to be in. Even though this was over a decade ago now I can still remember how it felt.

Sabratha wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I do however disagree with the idea that E &D were doomed to either do something bad or doomed to a bad end.

I feel that if only a few circumstances would have been different in their lives. 15 people would be with us now.
I truly believe that.

I agree with you on this part. I do not think E&D were doomed to make this massacre. I do think some events in their life linked with their personalities would occur. Dylan would most likley be depressed at some oint in his life and would have phases of magical thinking. Eric would be impulsive to some degree.

But would this automatically mean that they were unable to have relatively normal, mundane lives? Nope. They might have gotten good jobs and both started their own families etc. Columbine was not in any way a forgone conclusion and I always like to stress that their individual life-choice decision could have been different.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I see them as two young kids who didn't understand the full and lasting consequences of what they were doing.

I strongly disagree here. Both knew exactly what they are doign and what are going to be the consequences. Eric in particular was blunt and honest about it.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Maybe one isn't likely to feel deep sympathy unless you have been through a lot of abuse at school.

Hard to say, I went through some abuse and bullying in school, but at younger age than E&D. My HS life was pretty much normal and casual. Its my pre-HS school life that featured some bullying and abuse.
Either way, I could perhaps show some limited sympathy if they just went in and killed the bully or abuser. Planning to kill sevral hundred people, inlcuding freshmen and people they never knew is something else. They also shot a lot of people who were never in any way a threat to them. Kyle Velasquez, Kelly Fleming or Daniel Mauser are perfect examples of people who never did any harm to either Eric or Dylan or any of their friends.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Father,
I didn't mean that you didn't feel any sympathy .I meant that perhaps to feel the same type of sympathy I do or a lot of Columbiners do, perhaps  it is likely that one has to have been or feels like they  had the same type of experience E &D did as far as being bullied and outcasted in school. Of course I am sure there are exceptions to that  but this seems to have been what I've noticed over the years the most. I admire you willingness to maintain an open mindedness as so many do not.
That's not to say that I condone what they did in any way.
I hate that this tragedy every occurred and I hurt for all the victims and the families.
What a tragedy it is any way that you look at it. Nobody deserved to die that day. Nobody should die the way any of them did both E &D and the victims. I often find the sadness of such a tragedy to be overwhelming. Most Columbiners do not support the actions of the tragedy although there are exceptions, they are the minority.

Good for your son. It is great that he took the time to remember the tragic deaths of so many his own age that he isn't old enough to remember. It seems like a lot of teens can't get interested in something that seems so long ago to them because it doesn't seem relevant to their lives now but I believe that tragedy is always relevant. It is always good to remember someone(s) or feel sympathy for someone(s) no matter how long its been since their passing.

All good, I hear ya & with you on a lot of points.. I've been a "bully the bully" guy since high school (I'm no saint.. it was as much the satisfaction of embarrassing a d-bag as it was "doing the right thing"), again I'm a bottom line thinker so targets of bullying lose my support when they go postal on innocents.

I have a lot of sympathy but it's compartmentalized and "effect" vs "cause" is weighted 50-1.

embrace the positives tho.. be it bullying, mental health, law enforcement or political corruption, pharma neglect, gun control.. this tragedy opened up a lot of eyes to many necessary topics

"All I can say is that its hard to understand their way of thinking if you haven't lived it. I wanted to do the same thing they did as did a close friend of mine and we hated the whole school and wanted it destroyed.
For us, it wasn't just all the people who abused us. Our rage was against the people who either laughed while the abuse was going on or did nothing to help us. I can only imagine that E &D must have thought the same way.To us, they were nearly as much to blame as our direct abusers. I consider it the grace of God that we didn't go through with it. It is a very dark place to be in. Even though this was over a decade ago now I can still remember how it felt."

This is a great reply.. you just helped me with my aggravation over E&D killing innocents. Doesn't change anything, but this is powerful insight which I'm sure is a likely if not exact scenario in the killers minds.

New to the forum, but I do like the "it's ok to disagree" but respect each others opinions style here.

As I'm typing out this reply, it's very frustrating for me in regards to Dylan. He was months away from college & a new life. I know his mindset couldn't fathom this, but I was in "the" fraternity many moons ago & we were known as a jock/party frat. We had had a lot of Dylan types as well tho, guys that were smart, different & crazy cool in their own little world. They'd run thru during rush & @ first you'd think wtf? and before you know it people would be like "give this guy a shot, he's hilarious".

I can think of one particular "Dylan" type that owns a big IT co. & his wife was a bombshell. Dude was an outcast in HS. Can't tell you how many jocks ended up being the middle aged 20 year FR asst football coach in some POS district. The "Dylan" type guy worked with me in a restaurant & I got to know him, complete freak initially but like I said, get to know him & it was a whole different opinion. In reality/hindsight it's amazing he wanted anything to do with us.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I do however disagree with the idea that E &D were doomed to either do something bad or doomed to a bad end.

I feel that if only a few circumstances would have been different in their lives. 15 people would be with us now.
I truly believe that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I agree with you on this part. I do not think E&D were doomed to make this massacre. I do think some events in their life linked with their personalities would occur. Dylan would most likley be depressed at some oint in his life and would have phases of magical thinking. Eric would be impulsive to some degree.

PIB & Sab,

My initial reaction in my "Eric discovery" was "I don't like this guy" & "bad seed".. softening a bit, barely, but in large part my opinions were solidified when I read one of the FBI psychs claimed he was destined for this & then I saw Adam Lanza post were he called Eric "a monster". I'm not going to be the guy that debates with Lanza's assesment of calling a "peer" a monster.

Food for thought, I have an entirely different take on DK, but in Eric's case?... I see "hard wired" to do this at some point.

PaintItBlack wrote:

What I mean is that they were kids, teenagers when they died. When you are that young do you really fully understand just how permanent death is or exactly what it would be like for their parents to have to live with this grief forever?  What it really means to remove yourself and others from the planet? Teenagers not adults yet. There is a reason why there are statutory rape laws and such in place to protect them. I firmly believe that there are things you will only learn and understand by life experience. And that is experience they didn't live to get. I'm sure they thought they knew exactly what they were doing. I'm sure they thought they knew everything. I thought I knew everything when I was 16 , 17 years old too.

Depends, I believe there are some things that are indeed complex issues (marriage relations, long-term employment issues) that are not understood well by teenagers, until they experience them. A spree killing and death are not such issues. These are pretty straightforward things in all honestly, I'm sure E&D knew perfectly well what they are doign and what would be the results.
I'd say my own beliefs about death and spree killings have not changed from the time I was 16. And a lot of water in the Vistula went by since.

PaintItBlack wrote:

All I can say is that its hard to understand their way of thinking if you haven't lived it. I wanted to do the same thing they did as did a close friend of mine and we hated the whole school and wanted it destroyed.
For us, it wasn't just all the people who abused us. Our rage was against the people who either laughed while the abuse was going on or did nothing to help us. I can only imagine that E &D must have thought the same way.

I understand what you say and please do not take it as a hostile statement from me, but I think you are projecting your own HS experiences onto E&D's experiences. I think these were likley very different, judging from Eric and Dylan themselves wrote.

Dylan as far as I recall, only once mentions hate for jocks, Eric never does that. Both in fact write a lot about "people leaving them out of teh good stuff" (Eric) or "nobody accepting me even though i want to be accepted," (Dylan). Both really stress a lot about not being given the respect they deserve and not being invited by the cool people to cool events.

Allmost all they ever write regarding relaions with peers is about exclusion, not bullying or even abuse. That's my point.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

My initial reaction in my "Eric discovery" was "I don't like this guy" & "bad seed"..  softening a bit, barely, but in large part my opinions were solidified when I read one of the FBI psychs claimed he was destined for this & then I saw Adam Lanza post were he called Eric "a monster".  I'm not going to be the guy that debates with Lanza's assesment of calling a "peer" a monster.

Very interesting point. Lanza seems to have obsessed ovr my film and my posts when he was around. I wonder how would he react if he knew that I always considered myself far more similar to Eric than to Dylan.
Nowhere as far down the psychopathy spectrum as Eric was mind you (especially as far as factor 2 components), but there are certain psychopathic affect traits that I belive I have at a significantly higher level than Eric. I'm sure Lanza would be very surprised. Perhaps I should have stated this more openly back on the old forums.

Sabratha:

Lanza's interest is a compliment to your intelligence. What film are you referencing? I'd be interested in viewing it.

ASD.. Aspergers? What are your thoughts on predictive assessments as it relates to serial killers & mass murderers? Is it possible now or in the future to accurately identify?

What part of Eric's psych do you feel "allowed" him to cross the line/mass murder?

Fatheroftwo wrote:

ASD..   Aspergers?  What are your thoughts on predictive assessments as it relates to serial killers & mass murderers?  Is it possible now or in the future to accurately identify?

That wasa very stupid typo on my part, which I have now edited and corrested in my post above. It was not supposed to say ASD, it supposed to say: "as far AS factor 2 components". I was refering to Rober Hare's psychopathy theory. Hare sees psychopathy as a combination of 2 corelated, but separate factors.

Factor 1 includes affective and interpersonal components:

- Glibness/superficial charm
- Grandiose sense of self-worth
- Pathological lying
- Cunning/manipulative
- Lack of remorse or guilt
- Emotionally shallow
- Callous/lack of empathy
- Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2 includes vbehavioral and lifestyle components:
- Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
- Parasitic lifestyle
- Lack of realistic, long-term goals
- Impulsivity
- Irresponsibility
- Poor behavioral controls
- Early behavioral problems
- Juvenile delinquency
- Revocation of conditional release
- Criminal versatility

Psychopathy is a spectrum, which means not all of the components must be present for someone to be classified as a psychopath. It also means that there are varying degrees of psychopathy. Eric, while havign a lot of psychopathic traits also for example clearly had a great ability to plan ahead, which is not a psychopathic trait at all.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

What part of Eric's psych do you feel "allowed" him to cross the line/mass murder?

Now that's an elephant of a question.

For starters, Eric had a great disdain and dissatisfaction with mundane, everyday life and regular, mundane society. IMHO this was the cornerstone of all of Eric's actions (Dylan's cornerstone was his depression and dissatisfaction with himself).
But the cornerstone was not allone sufficinet to cause Eric to go on with the columbine massacre.

This is where other aspects of Eric come into play - his lack of remorse, lack of empathy, grandiose sense of self-worth, impulsivity and agression.

Another necessary part of the puzzle for Eric was suprisingly Dylan. I'm certain that it was Dylan who introduced his spre killing fantasy to Eric. Eric jumped to the idea, as he saw it as a way out of his struggle against the mundane, everyday life and society he hated. Then Eric and Dylan both reinforced each other's dedication to the massacre plan.

So in short, I think the basic eements were Eric's personality and Eric's beliefs about life and society. But a crucial caalyst was Dylan and the spee killing idea that he introduced to Eric. Remember taht before columbine there was no such public profile of spree killings. Dylan provided Eric with a "role model" for a spree killing.
After 20/4/1999 columbine itself became a role model for future killings.

We just have to agree to disagree. What I expressed about my beliefs is what everything combined- my mind, my heart , my life experiences ,everything tells me is the truth about E &D. My beliefs have come out of a lot of thinking and questioning and debating within myself over the years. Ultimately, we all have to go with what our heart and minds tell us is the truth.

Sabratha wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

What I mean is that they were kids, teenagers when they died. When you are that young do you really fully understand just how permanent death is or exactly what it would be like for their parents to have to live with this grief forever?  What it really means to remove yourself and others from the planet? Teenagers not adults yet. There is a reason why there are statutory rape laws and such in place to protect them. I firmly believe that there are things you will only learn and understand by life experience. And that is experience they didn't live to get. I'm sure they thought they knew exactly what they were doing. I'm sure they thought they knew everything. I thought I knew everything when I was 16 , 17 years old too.

Depends, I believe there are some things that are indeed complex issues (marriage relations, long-term employment issues) that are not understood well by teenagers, until they experience them. A spree killing and death are not such issues. These are pretty straightforward things in all honestly, I'm sure E&D knew perfectly well what they are doign and what would be the results.
I'd say my own beliefs about death and spree killings have not changed from the time I was 16. And a lot of water in the Vistula went by since.

PaintItBlack wrote:

All I can say is that its hard to understand their way of thinking if you haven't lived it. I wanted to do the same thing they did as did a close friend of mine and we hated the whole school and wanted it destroyed.
For us, it wasn't just all the people who abused us. Our rage was against the people who either laughed while the abuse was going on or did nothing to help us. I can only imagine that E &D must have thought the same way.

I understand what you say and please do not take it as a hostile statement from me, but I think you are projecting your own HS experiences onto E&D's experiences. I think these were likley very different, judging from Eric and Dylan themselves wrote.

Dylan as far as I recall, only once mentions hate for jocks, Eric never does that. Both in fact write a lot about "people leaving them out of teh good stuff" (Eric) or "nobody accepting me even though i want to be accepted," (Dylan). Both really stress a lot about not being given the respect they deserve and not being invited by the cool people to cool events.

Allmost all they ever write regarding relaions with peers is about exclusion, not bullying or even abuse. That's my point.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

My initial reaction in my "Eric discovery" was "I don't like this guy" & "bad seed"..  softening a bit, barely, but in large part my opinions were solidified when I read one of the FBI psychs claimed he was destined for this & then I saw Adam Lanza post were he called Eric "a monster".  I'm not going to be the guy that debates with Lanza's assesment of calling a "peer" a monster.

Very interesting point. Lanza seems to have obsessed ovr my film and my posts when he was around. I wonder how would he react if he knew that I always considered myself far more similar to Eric than to Dylan.
Nowhere as far down the psychopathy spectrum as Eric was mind you (especially as far as factor 2 components), but there are certain psychopathic affect traits that I belive I have at a significantly higher level than Eric. I'm sure Lanza would be very surprised. Perhaps I should have stated this more openly back on the old forums.

This raises a question for me. If Eric's life could have been going better for him, if he had a few steady girlfriends, if he had felt more liked and respected by others, why would he have done this? If you look at any kind of spree or mass killing, one thing that stands out is besides any mental illness, the shooter is plainly miserable. Dylan sure was and I believe Eric was too. I think under the anger his great unhappiness was right there. I don't think anybody who does such a thing is not going to be miserable in one form or another.
If Eric had lived in another place where people were more open minded and accepting of people's differences, he could have ended up being a secure, well liked, happy guy who would have probably went on to get married and have a decent life. This is why I don't believe in the destined to do this theory. I feel if a few things would have been different, this likely would not have happened.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I do however disagree with the idea that E &D were doomed to either do something bad or doomed to a bad end.

I feel that if only a few circumstances would have been different in their lives. 15 people would be with us now.
I truly believe that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I agree with you on this part. I do not think E&D were doomed to make this massacre. I do think some events in their life linked with their personalities would occur. Dylan would most likley be depressed at some oint in his life and would have phases of magical thinking. Eric would be impulsive to some degree.

PIB & Sab,

My initial reaction in my "Eric discovery" was "I don't like this guy" & "bad seed"..  softening a bit, barely, but in large part my opinions were solidified when I read one of the FBI psychs claimed he was destined for this & then I saw Adam Lanza post were he called Eric "a monster".  I'm not going to be the guy that debates with Lanza's assesment of calling a "peer" a monster.

Food for thought, I have an entirely different take on DK, but in Eric's case?...  I see "hard wired" to do this at some point.

Thanks. I'm glad you got something from it.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

"All I can say is that its hard to understand their way of thinking if you haven't lived it. I wanted to do the same thing they did as did a close friend of mine and we hated the whole school and wanted it destroyed.
For us, it wasn't just all the people who abused us. Our rage was against the people who either laughed while the abuse was going on or did nothing to help us. I can only imagine that E &D must have thought the same way.To us, they were nearly as much to blame as our direct abusers. I consider it the grace of God that we didn't go through with it. It is a very dark place to be in. Even though this was over a decade ago now I can still remember how it felt."

This is a great reply..  you just helped me with my aggravation over E&D killing innocents.  Doesn't change anything, but this is powerful insight which I'm sure is a likely if not exact scenario in the killers minds.

New to the forum, but I do like the "it's ok to disagree" but respect each others opinions style here.

As I'm typing out this reply, it's very frustrating for me in regards to Dylan.  He was months away from college & a new life.  I know his mindset couldn't fathom this, but I was in "the" fraternity many moons ago & we were known as a jock/party frat.  We had had a lot of Dylan types as well tho, guys that were smart, different & crazy cool in their own little world.  They'd run thru during rush & @ first you'd think wtf? and before you know it people would be like "give this guy a shot, he's hilarious".

I can think of one particular "Dylan" type that owns a big IT co. & his wife was a bombshell.  Dude was an outcast in HS.  Can't tell you how many jocks ended up being the middle aged 20 year FR asst football coach in some POS district.  The "Dylan" type guy worked with me in a restaurant & I got to know him, complete freak initially but like I said, get to know him & it was a whole different opinion.  In reality/hindsight it's amazing he wanted anything to do with us.

PaintItBlack wrote:

This raises a question for me. If Eric's life could have been going better for him, if he had a few steady girlfriends, if he had felt more liked and respected by others, why would he have done this?

That is why I made this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], echeck my last response.

In short: because Eric's dissatisfacton was not with "everyday routine life" of his in particular being bad, but because "everyday routine life" in general is what he hated. This wasa basic, fundamental, core belief of Eric.

Most people hate their everyday life becaus ethere is somethign lacking with it. Eric hated the base fact that it is routine, mundane life in a modern society. Having a nicer "routine, mundane life in a modern society" would not change the basic fact for Eric, as it would still be a routine, mundane life in a modern society.

That's what very fw people notice: Eric was dissatisfied with his world on a ver, very basic straightforward level.

Just reading this post, thanks FatherofTwo for your thoughts on all of this, it's good to see someone with a little different perspective on things on here.

It's been more than a few moons since my high school days, but I recalled an additional experience in high school that parallels CHS.

New Years eve my senior year (a few weeks before the student committed suicide in the drama room), a hundred plus students & recent grads rented out two floors of a hotel.
After midnite everyone pretty much settled into their rooms. We had a knock on our door & were warned by a friend that a recent grad was knocking on doors & punching whoever answered. The guy
was a 6'4 245 lb linebacker who was Parade All American his senior year & went on to become a collegiate All American & NFL draftee. Had a penchant for "going off".. later in life became a truly good guy, but at this point in his life he was best to avoid.

About an hour after our warning we hear chaos in the halls & police everywhere. He had knocked on a door & to his surprise a forewarned recent grad buried a large hunting knife into his chest, less than 1/4 inch from hitting his heart. Amazingly he lived.

The guy who stabbed him did not do time. I had heard prior to that night the kid worked at a convenient store for the sole purpose of having the oppty to kill a potential robber & brought a weapon to work daily.
The kid was a stoner, but like CHS examples, was well known & very accepted by the "in crowd". Odd that stoners can be connected to the in crowd, but goths can't.

Can anyone say Eric & Rocky?