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 One major thing people have to truly understand

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PostSubject: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2015 2:35 pm

For the people who say "if only they toughened it out another month to graduate and move on", things might have been different. Really? I mean, really?

Give me a break. Cut the bullshit. Psychopaths are just wired differently. They can function just fine in everyday life but truly lack the empathy necessary to really feel for anybody else and can really go off especially in petty situations. The better than everybody else belief is ever so prevalent in these guys combined with the fact they have short fuses makes these guys ticking time bombs. Treatment rarely works because no amount of money or success or love changes these guys. Case in point, former NFL star Aaron Hernandez.

It's the same MO with these guys time and time again. For the most part, these poor souls don't have the ability to empathize with most human beings especially outside of their immediate family and friends.

How can you help or change these types? I'm not sure. Because like I said, no amount of success/money/love will prevent these types from doing something stupid and causing harm to others. If only they had girlfriends? Bullshit. Aaron Hernandez had a high school sweetheart he loved deeply who he just had a baby with but he still murdered because he lacks empathy, why? BECAUSE HE'S A PSYCHOPATH.

KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE ESPECIALLY A HANDICAPPED KID OR KILLING SOMEBODY BECAUSE HE DIDN'T APOLOGIZE TO YOU AFTER SPILLING A DRINK ON YOU IS THE PURE DEFINITION OF WHAT A PSYCHOPATH IS.

Can we really help these types? Not sure. It makes for good debate though.


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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2015 4:20 pm

Yeah you've right but is a one small detail you can't diagnose people after their death. I Dylan's case there is no reason to state that he was a psychopath. Presumably he was a schizophrenic instead in Eric's case there were and there are a lot of disputes about that. I have been reading since yesterday a Hare's book "Without conscience" and so far I've noticed a few interesting things but I have to read it all before I'll share with my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2015 10:04 pm

No "we" don't have to understand this because not everyone here agrees or believes that either were psychopaths. Changing the rude, patronizing tone you took here would also be helpful. I certainly don't and I've been following this since it happened even though I was young then. So for 16 years of my life I've studied this issue. Anyone can disagree with me all they like about my views and beliefs but I don't accept anyone telling me that I don't know what I've talking about because I know I do. And I have no idea about Aaron Hernandez's psychology except he seemed to have a gang member type mentality. Do you really know enough to fairly diagnose him?

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2015 11:14 pm

You don't need 16 years to come to the conclusion these guys were psychopathic. Maybe Dylan looked to Eric for direction from time to time but claiming he was just suicidal is quite a stretch considering he was the one who shot a handicapped kid who was just sitting at the table confused and he was laughing in the process.

If that doesn't qualify as psychopathic, then I don't know what does. I know I don't need 16 years to come to a logical conclusion on who these guys were.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2015 10:42 am

What shall I say? For He has spoken to us...

I find it funny how you just march in here sitting on your high horse and telling us, who all probably invested way more of their time in this case than you, what to think and how to interpret certain behavior. As if every murderer is a psychopath. Life, and this tragedy in particular, is more complicated than that you know.

Are you a psychologist? I highly doubt it. You've probably read a couple of (wikipedia) articles online and seen the Hannibal Lecter movies more times than than you should've, and now you think you're some kind of ''expert'' who took on the thankless task of educating the ignorant riff-raff on these boards...

Tone it down or leave, please?

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2015 12:32 pm

I'm not an expert nor do I pretend to be. I know for damn sure I don't need 16 years to come to the conclusion Eric/Dylan were psychopaths. Yes, you're correct, not all murderers are psychopaths but the sequence of events that went down that day and leading up to it sure as hell don't prove they weren't. Quite opposite if you ask me.

I don't mean to come off as a know it all but to me, it's really that cut and dry. I'm not going to discuss about former NFL star Aaron Hernandez in 2031 because it's pretty obvious who he was. A psychopath.

Maybe I have better knowledge than most because I've been inside prison and hung around bad people for most of my life but I do know these types of people are VERY VERY DIFFICULT to change, much like child molesters. Their brains are just wired differently.

Nothing is IMPOSSIBLE though which is why we always will debate.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2015 12:48 pm

When people are discussing a subject such as this, it is essentially inevitable that at times, it will become very heated, divided, and impassioned.

Individuals who are fervently on one side or the other, and others who are even genuinely "in the middle" can become exceedingly opinionated, thus debates will arise. And that is not only welcomed here on this forum, but greatly encouraged.

No one is "in trouble" here, but please refrain from telling anyone else to leave this forum simply because you disagree with them.

Thank you very much.
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2015 2:53 pm

Psychopaths usually don't kill themselves though, they prefer to live and then be able to sit back, watch the carnage that ensues, brag about what they did, and laugh at everyone, even if it is from behind prison bars, e.g., Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, ad nauseum (literally)...

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2015 3:38 pm

Sane One wrote:
I don't mean to come off as a know it all but to me, it's really that cut and dry.

It's okay. I didn't mean to come off as a sarcastic dick. Well I did... But I should've kept my cool and realized that, maybe, you didn't mean it that way. Let's just forget about it.

Welcome to the forum, btw! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2015 4:47 pm

Good point Soda. Certainly makes for some great discussion.

The things Manson says and does certainly gets people talking. Quite frankly, often times these guys have intelligent things to say. They're just not clicking on all cylinders though which is why they're such an extreme danger to society.
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2015 8:17 pm








Wow, that is great for you. I didn't need 16 years to come to that conclusion either but since this has been my main interest for 16 years I feel very comfortable in my beliefs and conclusions. Nobody, especially somebody coming in with an attitude is likely to change them.

Sane One wrote:
I'm not an expert nor do I pretend to be. I know for damn sure I don't need 16 years to come to the conclusion Eric/Dylan were psychopaths. Yes, you're correct, not all murderers are psychopaths but the sequence of events that went down that day and leading up to it sure as hell don't prove they weren't. Quite opposite if you ask me.

I don't mean to come off as a know it all but to me, it's really that cut and dry. I'm not going to discuss about former NFL star Aaron Hernandez in 2031 because it's pretty obvious who he was. A psychopath.

Maybe I have better knowledge than most because I've been inside prison and hung around bad people for most of my life but I do know these types of people are VERY VERY DIFFICULT to change, much like child molesters. Their brains are just wired differently.

Nothing is IMPOSSIBLE though which is why we always will debate.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeSun May 03, 2015 5:48 am

Well, this has always been a hot topic.

While I personally believe Cullen got a lot of stuff wrong or overstressed some issues, yet I believe his general assessment of: "Dylan was depressed, Eric was psychopathic" is likley correct.

As both are deceased, we are unable to make a proper diagnosis. However given the information we have, an assumption that Eric had strong psychopatic features is entirely feasible. Psychopathy, as defined by prof.Hare is a spectrum. Eric imho expressed enough traits and behaviors typical for psychopathy to give us a good ground to at least suspect he was in fact psychopathic. There are a few key differences that would point that Eric was not in the farthest extreme of the psychopathy scale:
1) Eric seems to have had the ability to plan ahead and prevent his impulsive insticts from interfering with his long-term plans. This is not typical for psychopaths (especially low-functioning ones).
2) Eric, in my assessment, had some sort of real attachment to his parents and might have been actually sorry for causing them the problems after the massacre. We should note however taht it did not in any way prevent him from going on with it and perhaps the whole address aimed at his parents was caused by his discussions with Dylan rather than being his own initiative.
3) the suicide issue, again might have really came from Dylan not Eric though.


Dylan himself, I think the common consensus is that his writing is vividly depressive in nature. I would also argue that it gives us pointers to make an educated guess that Dylan might have very well had schizotypal PD. Wether this is true or not we will never be certain (alternatively we can assume that almost all his writing was done under heavy influence of alcochol), but a schizotypal assessment is imho feasible.

Are the personality related issues alone enough to explain why Columbine happened? No. Thousands of depressed people commit suicide everyday, psychopaths worldwide commit numerous violent crimes. But a spree-killing-double-suicide is a rare and unique enough event to demand a more detailed explanation.

However, the forementioned psychological assessment would be a core part of any such explanation and would in fact explain the vast majority of the motives and behavior of the shooters. In particular Eric's seemingly self-contradictory statements and exposition-seeking behavior ca be very well explained through such a theory.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeMon May 04, 2015 11:44 am

Quote :
1) Eric seems to have had the ability to plan ahead and prevent his impulsive insticts from interfering with his long-term plans. This is not typical for psychopaths (especially low-functioning ones).
2) Eric, in my assessment, had some sort of real attachment to his parents and might have been actually sorry for causing them the problems after the massacre. We should note however taht it did not in any way prevent him from going on with it and perhaps the whole address aimed at his parents was caused by his discussions with Dylan rather than being his own initiative.
3) the suicide issue, again might have really came from Dylan not Eric though.
I'd like to add some new points to these.
- He didn't abuse and treat with cruelty animals at all. He loved his dog.
- He didn't show any psychopathic traits when he was a small kid.
- He wasn't talkative, magnetic and he couldn't maintain eye contact as psychopaths usually do.
- He wasn't sexually active at all. He had a very big problem with that.
- He was shy, full of complexes these are not traits of psychopath.
I assume that too many people focus on his journal which was written for a public from the very first and don't contain his true feelings.
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2015 4:35 am

MysteryMan wrote:
I'd like to add some new points to these.
- He didn't abuse and treat with cruelty animals at all. He loved his dog.
- He didn't show any psychopathic traits when he was a small kid.
- He wasn't talkative, magnetic and he couldn't maintain eye contact as psychopaths usually do.
- He wasn't sexually active at all. He had a very big problem with that.
- He was shy, full of complexes these are not traits of psychopath.
I assume that too many people focus on his journal which was written for a public from the very first and don't contain his true feelings.

Well, first of all there's not one univeraly accepted model of psychopathy. Under the current DSM-V and ICD-10 psychopathy is not even recognized as a specific disorder. We have "Antisocial Personality Disorder", which in fact is more of a general umbrella definition, although low-functioning psychopaths will likley fit the diagnostic criteria of antisocial PD, a lot of non-psychopathic inmates also will qualify for Antisocial PD. Antisocial PD has a very wide definition and usually a huge percentage of inmates fall under its criteria.

As such I personally dislike using ASPD, because it is wide, too vague and often little more than "criminality defined as a disorder".

I much prefer to use Robert Hare's psychopathy model, as it is both precise and rare in the sense that inmates that ca be diagnosed with Hare's psychopathy remain a small percentage, while thise who can be diagnosed with Antisocial PD are often mopre than 75% of the inmate population.


Animal cruelty, despite popular notions, is not a core psychopathic trait. Some psychopaths may engage in this, but an equally huge proportion do not, especially high-functioning ones. There were diagnosed psychopaths who sucessfully passed with flying colors a prison animal-centered program with cats and dogs.

I have no idea if Eric showed any psychopathic traits as a kid, we simply do not have the detailed information that could allow us to make judgement either way on this part of his life.

Actually, most people who knew Eric in person mentioned that he was talkative a lot. IIRC there are some people in the 1k files who barely knew E&D from class, but still commented on Dylan being the "quiet one" and Eric the "talkative one".

Eric wasn't sexually active, but not because he did not try. Seems women were not particularly attracted to him, which isn't relaly anything new for highschool students.

I do not recall anyone who knew Eric and then described Eric as shy.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2015 1:26 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] At first thank you for explanation as I know you're a psychologist so you've got better knowledge.
Quote :
I have no idea if Eric showed any psychopathic traits as a kid, we simply do not have the detailed information that could allow us to make judgement either way on this part of his life.
Well we have memories of him as a young kid from his friends from Plattsburgh whom described him as a regular kid, nice, shy and polite. As I good remember his baseball coach mentioned that he didn't want to let the team down and he was a withdraw child.
Quote :
I do not recall anyone who knew Eric and then described Eric as shy.
Quote :
Actually, most people who knew Eric in person mentioned that he was talkative a lot. IIRC there are some people in the 1k files who barely knew E&D from class, but still commented on Dylan being the "quiet one" and Eric the "talkative one".
Quote :
Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors, for example, told reporters: "He was shy, a little withdrawn. But not real bizarre," and that, "he never bothered anyone." (Anyone? What about all those people he killed?) According to his neighbors, Columbine killer Eric Harris was "a nice guy. Shy person, didn't say much" and "a very nice, polite, clean-cut kid." Furrow's neighbors called him, "a very pleasant individual." Barton's neighbors saw him as "a typical American family man," "a nice guy" who "kept to himself."
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So there were some people whom described him as a shy boy.
I should have written that he was especially shy and less talkative in company of girls. For example every time I watch a video 'Eric in Columbine' where he's talking with Brenda I see the boy who don't know how to grab her attention generally how to talk to her, tough. For me it's the best video which show us how he really was and behaved when he wasn't among his good mates. I'd like to show through these all things that he was a typical boy from suburbia at a glance at least. Yes, he was mentally ill but I'm not sure that he was a psychopaths at least typical from Hare's book. It's all for now I haven't got more time but I'll try to add some new things soon.
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2015 2:49 pm

MysteryMan wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So there were some people whom described him as a shy boy.
Thanks for the info, although th article in question does not mention if said neighbours were ones from Littleton or neighbours from previous towns he lived in as a younger kid. He and his parentsmoved a lot due t his dad's job as a military pilot.

I'll try to dig more info up, but in generla peers who kew him in his senior year mention he was talkative and active. One good example is Michelle Fox, feel fre eto chekc out the thread I made:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

My impression reading the accounts of mostly students was taht Eric was talkative and outgoing, but not a very likable person in the long run. Hemade friends easilya nd quicly and then equally fas lost said friends.

He was very close friends with Brooks Brown and Nate Dykemann but then made enemies out of both. AFAIK Joe Stair and his crowd distanced himself from Eric (and Also Dylan) because Eric would clash with older TCM members. Eric also IIRC clashed with Devon Adams.

MysteryMan wrote:
I'd like to show through these all things that he was a typical boy from suburbia at a glance at least. Yes, he was mentally ill but I'm not sure that he was a psychopaths at least typical from Hare's book. It's all for now I haven't got more time but I'll try to add some new things soon.

I agree that he had a lot in common with his peers, because he was in fact a suburban teenage highschool student. But again, I do not think we will find speific causes for the shooting if he look at the mundane, imho we need to focuson the rare and unusual traits and behaviors of the shooters in order to undertand the massacre.

Also, I think you seem to overstate the effects of psychopathy.Psychopathy is a spectrum and many psychopaths (especially the so claled high-functioning ones aka non-criminal) can often go through their entire life without being arrested and diagnosed. Unlike people with Autism or with Reactive attachment disorder, psychopaths are not easily distinguished, especially by people who know them only a short time or just in a business setting. Psychopaths can have normal jobs (even if they tend to be manipulative or abuse their poition), they often graduate, get a degree, teach, have jobs in marketing, sales or entertainment.

We will never be sure if Eric was a psychopath or not, but I think its at least fair to say taht he exhibited many behavioral patterns that point to him being significantly higher than average on the psychopathy spectrum than normal people are. The shooting itself is just a last example.

Eric was prone to impulsive, reckless behavior. Smashing Book's windscreen. The whole Tiffany Typher affair. Tring to clash with badly driving girls at the CHS parking lot (Dylan had to bring him in line that time). While we cannot be sure, I'm almost certain the van brake-in was Erics idea too.


One last thing -I did tusty psychology at the university, but I am not a psychologist and I now work in an entirely different field. Just wanted to make that part clear not to mislead anyone.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2015 8:59 pm

I have read that everyone has some traits consistent with psychopathy. I believe this because humans tend to be very selfish and are often ruthless in the pursuit of something they want.

I once read a psychologist's theory that Eric was not a psychopathy and I found it convincing but it was a long time ago and I can't remember where I read it. If anyone ever comes across it please post it on the board.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2015 3:43 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
I have read that everyone has some traits consistent with psychopathy. I believe this because humans tend to be very selfish and are often ruthless in the pursuit of something they want.

I once read a psychologist's theory that Eric was not a psychopathy and I found it convincing but it was a long time ago and I can't remember where I read it. If anyone ever comes across it please post it on the board.

It is educated speculation either way, since you cannot be certain about a deceased person.

Well, its not true that we all have core psychopathic traits, but there are entirely normal people taht may exhibit psychopathic behavior a few times, or some who would be very low on the psychopathy spectrum, far lower than to be considered psychopaths. Was Eric a case of the latter? Or was he "psychopathic enough to classify as a psychopath" so to speak?

We will never know that, as he is dead. However, I'd argue that given the facts we know it is likely that Eric was a psychopath, or at least had psychopathic traits that would likley make him score higher on the PCL-R psychopathy checklist than the vast majority of the population.

Was Eric an "extreme" psychopath that would score maximum on the checklist? Certainly not. But keep in mind tht such "extreme" psychopaths are a minority among psychopaths themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeSat May 09, 2015 5:30 am

I've got a little aversion to call Eric as a psychopath because I'm thinking this too misleading for a typical person whom don't interesting in a case as we. For example a couple of shrinks, media and Cullen labelled him this way it's very comfortable because when majority of society heard that, they created an image of Hannibal Lecter, Ted Bundy and so on and they thought this should finish a case. He was a psychopath so this explained everything and life goes on. I disagree with this at all. We should dig up more and as you mentioned before distinct unusual, rare traits and behaviours which might help us to understand Eric as a complex person. It's complicated because we don't have a full access to all the case files especially to the basement tapes and his therapist files.
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeSat May 09, 2015 7:59 am

I strongly believe he was not a psychopath. I mean he couldn't even lie his way right. Cullen insisted that Eric "lied through the Juvenile Diversion". No, Cullen. Dylan lied through Juvenile Diversion. Eric was the one who said he experienced homicidal and suicidal thoughts. Eric was the one who opened himself up. Dylan wrote nothing about that.

Eric continuously cried on the Basement Tapes, and tried to hide his emotions, but failed miserably. Dylan, on the other hand in the Basement Tapes let out his steam. In the transcripts we have, Dylan seems very cold to his parents, and his family, while Eric is very apologetic. Neither were psychopaths IMO.

Also while they did fool people, Dylan Klebold fooled everyone. He fooled everyone because they have to think that Eric was the one who got him to do the shooting, and that he was a follower because they couldn't believe "sweet innocent Dylan" would do such  a thing. Most people were NOT surprised that Eric did this. As a matter of fact, some of his friends expected it. On the other hand, most of his friends did not expect Dylan to do what he did. That is why It will always be seem as if Eric lured Dylan into this because Dylan was such a "sweet guy" to everyone, but if you read the basement tapes, and his journals you can see Dylan was no easily follower. He was a manipulator, much more than Eric, and didn't even boast about it, and his strange philosophies, and very creepy view about love that many people don't understand how deep of a stage Dylan was in.

And don't get me started on the shooting. Brooks said it,
"For Dylan. He had the time of his life. He was sick of life. He was going to kill himself anyway, and he was going to have one last hooray. Dylan enjoyed mowing down children. He was laughing his ass off"
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeSat May 16, 2015 2:49 am

To me, psychopath is a word thrown around so much it no longer has the same meaning it once did. Every single person who has killed someone gets called and accused of being a psychopath at one point or another by people.
It's inevitable. Eric has been strongly identified with this condition because of the unfortunate success of Cullen's book .I realize mass murders like this as relatively rare and so get a lot of attention and coverage. Yes, sadly they seem to happen more and more often these days but only count for a small percentage of overall murders each year. There are 14, 000 plus murders a year on the US and who knows how many worldwide. Are all or even mot of the people responsible for these deaths psychopaths? I seriously doubt it.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 7:14 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
To me, psychopath is a word thrown around so much it no longer has the same meaning it once did. Every single person who has killed someone gets called and accused of being a psychopath at one point or another by people.
That's why I always stress that the word should not be thrown around mindlessly, instead it should be brought down to one of the clinical pyshcological definitions. I strongly prefer Hare's definition and I a arguing taht under Hare's definition associated with the Revised Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R).
Erc is dead so no dagnosis is possible. However if he was alive then his life history and the events he took part in would make him a very good candidate for psychopathy assessment.

We do not know if he was one, but the information we have on him certainly is coherent with a moderately psychopathic individual.

PaintItBlack wrote:
There are 14, 000 plus murders a year on the US and who knows how many worldwide. Are all or even mot of the people responsible for these deaths psychopaths? I seriously doubt it.
"Hare-style" Psychopaths are rare, even among prison populations. Waht is more, most psychopaths in fact do not commit murders and Hare hints that the majority of the psychopathic population might be "flying blow the radar" all their lives never being incarcerated.

The link between serial or spree killers and psychopathy is certainly not absolute. Most school shooters were not psychopaths. Out of famous spree killers, I'd say Harris and Breivik are the only ones that come to my mind as being very good psychopathy candidates.

Possibly also Kazimierczak (as a igh-functioning psychopath) given his life-history, but the medications he was taking suggest otherwise so he is a controversial case at best.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu May 28, 2015 1:06 pm

Quote :
I'd say Harris and Breivik are the only ones that come to my mind as being very good psychopathy candidates.
There is a one name which perfect fit in with definition a psychopath it is Andrew Golden who committed a school shooting in Jonesboro with his older buddy Johnson. You can read about him here
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu May 28, 2015 1:46 pm

MysteryMan wrote:
Quote :
I'd say Harris and Breivik are the only ones that come to my mind as being very good psychopathy candidates.
There is a one name which perfect fit in with definition a psychopath it is Andrew Golden who committed a school shooting in Jonesboro with his older buddy Johnson. You can read about him here
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Interesting link. Its Langman, so I might be biased, as we both share a suspicion that Dylan probably had schizotypal PD in addition to his depression. Plus he uses the same model of psychopathy as I prefer to use. So yeah, Langman just scored briwnie points with me on a professional level.

What he writes I find convincing, but mostly because I had held views myself for some time. Perhaps its because both of us make sound judgements, or perhaps we have been both brainwashed by the same scientific paradigm? Who knows.

Having said that, the info on Andrew Golden is fragmentary at best. Animal cruetlty seems to be the only hard fact suggesting possible psychopathy/aspd. And that's not even a core trait, animal cruelty is not necessary for psychopathy plus it occurs in non-psychopathic individuals as well. I think we have much less info on Golden than on Haris and overlal it seems to sketchy to make a guess at him.


Overall a bit off topic, but I need to say that recently I'm getting very good info here and not at all dissapointed for com,ing back actively to the forums, even if it was slow last month.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu May 28, 2015 2:01 pm

Sounds to me Eric had more of a Boarderline Personality Disorder than just being a "Psychopath" as many are so quick to point out due to his journal.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu May 28, 2015 2:33 pm

lol wrote:
Sounds to me Eric had more of a Boarderline Personality Disorder than just being a "Psychopath"  as many are so quick to point out due to his journal.

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Eric has two traits that could be seen as BPD:
- Impulsive behavior. However this is in fact a common trait shared by BPD and psychopathy.
- The whole issue about Eric being angry over "people not inviting him to cool things". and some of his rants abotu being skinny, not fit etc.

However, I do find a BPD assessmet to be somewhat of a long shot. Here are my arguments:
1) BPD's core, essential trait is extreme self-image issues and very strong anxiety over being "abandonned", left by other people etc. Eric in my opinion does not exhibit any of this above the level of an average teenager, while with BPD this is very, very extreme.

2) Eric, as many teens, is unhappy about not getting laid, but he is perfectly willing to try to ask several girls out and is not upset over any individual girl dissing him, rather aboput the end result of not getting any. This is a very non-BDP pattern. BDP people end to fall "madly in love" with one person, idolize and obsess to no end over said person, then blow up in the other direction when said single person proves to be "unworthy". Eric, despite his many faults is not like that at all. In fact Dylan is much closer to BDP behavior in this repsect than Eric ever was.

3) Impulsive behavor, while certainly a bag part of who Eric was, is in fact a trait common to both BDP and psychopathy, so can't be used to justiy one over the other possibility.

4) BDP people jump rapidly from a overflow of very positive emotions (being very loving, nice, happy etc) to oerly negative emotions. Eric doesn't seem to do any of that. People who knew him mention he was moody but when they go into details it always turns out they mean "impulsive" or angry rather than swinging fom happy to angry/sad.

5) Unlike psychopaths, BDP peopel are usually a threat to themselves rather than to others. Binge drinking, reckless gambling, drunk drivng are common to both psychopaths and BDP, but the underlying reasons are entirely different. Psychopaths do it out of thoughtlessness or "not giving a fuck". BDP people do it because they want to escape the pain of the intense emotions they feel.

6) BDP people can be bombastic and drama queens, but they do not tend to be sadistic, callous or excessively cruel. And when theya re cruel, its aimed at only very specific people who "fauiled them", "abandonned them", "were unworthy" etc. They aim for people close to them - boyfriends, paente etc. BDP peopel take everything very personally. A spree killing where you taunt and abuse random people that you don't even know well... that's a very non-BDP behavor. At the same time, perfectly consistent with psychopathy.

7) Eric's reaction to being caught about the van brake-in is ry psychopathic. The whole "Its not my fault, the guy left his van open in the middle of nowhere, he should have known better, he deserves this shit, fucker should be shot" statement is textbook psychopath, not BDP. A BDP caught for such a brake in would likely descent into self-hate, self-blame and anxiety. Not get angry at the authorities and try to shift the blame on the victim. That's on the other hand classic psychopathic turf right there for you.

Ok, my 2 cents.

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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeThu May 28, 2015 11:48 pm

Eric did mention 5 girls by name in the bt tapes and said you never called me back. That really made me feel good. Think about that bitches. He comes off as hurt, bitter and angry about being ignored by them.
Another thing that strikes me is he asked one girl out named Tanya 10 times, She kept turning him down because she had a boyfriend but he kept asking. People could say that he did that because he was so desperately trying to get laid but for me that doesn't ring true. It seems to me that he did that out of loneliness. I know he wasn't a true hearts and flowers romantic like Dylan, but I do think that Eric was lonely in a lot of ways and he sincerely would have liked to have had a steady girlfriend. Not just for the sex although I'm sure he would have greatly enjoyed that part of it but for the loving companionship. I think towards the end he gave up caring or trying for a relationship although I think if his chance with Susan came along several months earlier things might have been different.
But I think for most of his teen years, he did long for a girlfriend. Does anybody else see this in him too?


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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeFri May 29, 2015 11:33 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
Eric did mention 5 girls  by name in the bt tapes and said  you never called me back. That really made me feel good. Think about that bitches. He comes off as hurt, bitter and angry about being ignored by them.
Another thing that strikes me is he asked one girl out named Tanya 10 times, She kept turning him down  because she had a boyfriend but he kept asking. People could say that he did that because he was so desperately trying to get laid but for me that doesn't ring true. It seems to me that he did that out of loneliness. I know he wasn't  a true hearts and flowers romantic like Dylan, but I do think that Eric was lonely in a lot of ways and he sincerely would have liked to have had a steady girlfriend. Not just for the sex although I'm sure he would have greatly enjoyed that part of it but for the loving companionship. I think towards the end he gave up caring or trying for a relationship although I think if his chance with Susan came along several months earlier things might have been different.
But I think for most of his teen years, he did long for a girlfriend. Does anybody else see this in him too?

Yes, I do. I've discussed it in bits and pieces in different posts I've made here a long while back.
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PostSubject: Re: One major thing people have to truly understand   One major thing people have to truly understand Icon_minitimeMon Jun 01, 2015 7:45 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
Another thing that strikes me is he asked one girl out named Tanya 10 times, She kept turning him down  because she had a boyfriend but he kept asking. People could say that he did that because he was so desperately trying to get laid but for me that doesn't ring true. It seems to me that he did that out of loneliness.

I don't know, to me that just seems like traces of flat affect. Most people suffer anxiety, self-image problems and in general have negative emotions regarding being turned down taht they cease this activity and even "shut down' their efforts with other people for some time. Flat affect on the otehr hand means that people do not suffer much in the way of self-image issues or dissapointment when being turned down at a romantic level (little positive, but also very little negative emotions). I actually have some personal experiences in this respect.

Thus i would find Eric's behavior entirely coherent with a guy who wants to get laid, but has flat affect enough that he doesn't care about hearing "no" and can just repeat the who,e thing as if the rejection didn't happen. In the end, he doesn't seem to obsess over any single girl as long as he doesn't see this as the girl purposely disrespecting him and a challenge to his status (as seems was the case with Brandi for some time).

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