The law enforcement behaviour

1st Q : do you think they could have done more ?

if yes , what would they do and how ?

2nd Q : do you think the response of Deputy Gardner was adequate ?

because with him it was like this , Eric start shooting in every direction and they stood on the top of the stairs for 5 mn ( see cnn diagrams ) . Then Gardner took four shots from his .45-caliber semi-automatic handgun ( a sig sauer or a ruger ) . But was this initial response too late ?

i think it was , and for that matter too litte as well , maybe Gardner and the others in the north end ( because i think somebody was covering that exit already ) ,  5 mn is enough to communicate with the other law enforcement agents that were in the area by that time and coordinate and deploy accordingly to the situation .

But i guess the law enforcement was afraid , to be honest thats what you get in small towns , the police his not so good in small towns . They were close to denver , but still when denver cops arrived , they would do nothing .

Gardner says he was no wearing prescription glasses and wasnt able to shoot properly . Which i think its a lie . I think he wanted to pursue but wasnt able to do so by an higher authority .

Yea, the could have done more. They could have actually gone into the school to try and stop these 2 maniacs. Instead, they sat outside for over 3 hours before they even attempted to go inside. The children inside that school got no help from the police. If they wanted to survive, it was up to them to try and escape. That's pretty terrible, in my opinion. Especially when there are dozens upon dozens of cops just a few hundred feet away.

When a cop signs on to become a cop, he knows his life is in danger anytime he goes to work. He knew that when he decided to become one. So, instead of hiding behind cop cars, they should have done the job they signed up for and went inside to help these children escape and try to take Dylan and Eric.

Jenn wrote:

Yea, the could have done more. They could have actually gone into the school to try and stop these 2 maniacs. Instead, they sat outside for over 3 hours before they even attempted to go inside. The children inside that school got no help from the police. If they wanted to survive, it was up to them to try and escape. That's pretty terrible, in my opinion. Especially when there are dozens upon dozens of cops just a few hundred feet away.

When a cop signs on to become a cop, he knows his life is in danger anytime he goes to work. He knew that when he decided to become one. So, instead of hiding behind cop cars, they should have done the job they signed up for and went inside to help these children escape and try to take Dylan and Eric.

Agreed. And I don't get why it took them almost an hour to rescue injured the ones outside of the school. They seemed to be protecting their own.. butts, the entire time. The ones inside really did save themselves.

I guess that's the major change that came out of that event, though. There's now no waiting time when they're alerted. At the same time, it's also really sad that we even have these 'laws' in the first place.

the problem was the media , they were all over the law enforcement and impeding manouvres and decisions , because they didnt want to assault the E and D with all gruesome stuff that could be shown on tv if they were to shot or injure them .

What they thought and ultimately decided was that since the tv was there and news helicopters too , let E and D realize they are being scrutinized by everyone now and maybe , mmmaaaayyyybbbbbeee , they will stop killing anymore kids , because while they were making these decisions E and D already have shoot , killed and injured a number of people .

I always thought that the one silver lining of Columbine was that it caused PDs everywhere to devolpe active shooter tactics. If we take a look at the police response to Sandy Hook as a compairason we can see that PDs learned a lot about what not to do. At Sandy Hook it took police less than ten miniutes to enter the building compaiered to the hours to took police to enter Columbine. They also kept the media at bay during Sandy Hook until they cleared the scene.

Yes, law enforcement should have done more. Deputy Gardner should have immediately followed Eric and Dylan into the school.

The other Jefferson County Deputies team should have gone into the school as soon as they arrived. There was a north-facing entrance to the library several yards west of the west doors. Two of the deputies stood outside of these doors while Eric and Dylan were murdering students. They could have reached Eric and Dylan and stopped them in about ten seconds by simply walking through these doors (these are the same doors the library survivors would later escape out of). Eric and Dylan were well aware of this risk and looked at the doors during the shooting in the library. Evan Todd reports that before Klebold confronted him, Klebold tried the locks on these west rooms, gained access to one, and made a "sweeping" motion across the room with his Tec-9, as if to confront any armed law enforcement that might have made an entrance through these doors.

If you want to understand Eric and Dylan's behavior on that day, you must realize that they believed that law enforcement were going to storm into the school at any minute. For example, Eric went back out to exchange fire with Deputy Smoker shortly after going in the school. When the shooters went into the library, they almost immediately went to the windows and started shooting. Todd also reports that when Eric and Dylan left, they made similar "sweeping" motions to cover their rear against law enforcement entrance.

Matthew Depew in the cafeteria heard them yelling "check the window" and "one's coming in." (002837-002838) as they were trying to detonate the bombs. This was a reference to anticipated law enforcement entrance.

Before they committed suicide, Eric and Dylan tried to engage law enforcement again. They were as stunned as anyone else that the police did not try to stop them.

lasttrain wrote:

Yes, law enforcement should have done more.  Deputy Gardner should have immediately followed Eric and Dylan into the school.

The other Jefferson County Deputies team should have gone into the school as soon as they arrived. There was a north-facing entrance to the library several yards west of the west doors. Two of the deputies stood outside of these doors while Eric and Dylan were murdering students.  They could have reached Eric and Dylan and stopped them in about ten seconds by simply walking through these doors (these are the same doors the library survivors would later escape out of).  Eric and Dylan were well aware of this risk and looked at the doors during the shooting in the library.  Evan Todd reports that before Klebold confronted him, Klebold tried the locks on these west rooms, gained access to one, and made a "sweeping" motion across the room with his Tec-9, as if to confront any armed law enforcement that might have made an entrance through these doors.

If you want to understand Eric and Dylan's behavior on that day, you must realize that they believed that law enforcement were going to storm into the school at any minute.  For example, Eric went back out to exchange fire with Deputy Smoker shortly after going in the school.  When the shooters went into the library, they almost immediately went to the windows and started shooting. Todd also reports that when Eric and Dylan left, they made similar "sweeping" motions to cover their rear against law enforcement entrance.

Matthew Depew in the cafeteria heard them yelling "check the window" and "one's coming in." (002837-002838) as they were trying to detonate the bombs.  This was a reference to anticipated law enforcement entrance.Before they committed suicide, Eric and Dylan tried to engage law enforcement again.  They were as stunned as anyone else that the police did not try to stop them.

yes , agree .

i think they stood by " let this happen , it will be for the greater good " kind of thought .

what i mean is : let this happen , if the body count is high , no one will attempt to do this again for the time being . They were wrong .

Then , BAM , Virginia Tech .

Police should have rushed them. Possibly only 2 people would have died (Rachel and Danny were already dead before law enforcement came). I always think how horrifying that the police didn't do anything until the shooting was over. I remember Randy and Judy Brown claiming that the police could hear the children in the library screaming through an open door.

what about the snipers ? surely there was some already on the premisses by the time they were on the library .

the police could fire some warning shots during the library shooting as well . Disctract them in some way .

they could have done numerous things .

they flunked it , completely .

1 officer with an mp 5 , 2 or 3 magazines , a vest and some stun grenades would be sufficient to put some order .

you didnt have to kill them , an mp5 its outstanding for supressing fire ( high rate of fire ) and it reloads quickly in good hands .

but i guess the police would be afraid that they would commit suicide , thats another reason for them not to assault E and D .

I have no issues with Gardner. He was just a local guard, he did his best having been alone and not a SWAT sniper etc. Sure he could probably try to pursue them inside the school, but he was not fully aware of how many shooters there are, what's going on etc. He did not have info from 911.

In all, he did what he could given the circumstances.

Police that arrived later? Different story. These were well trained professionals, with adequate numbers, weapons and gear. I think they should have went in early, go to the sound of gunfire.
Having said that, they were acting in accordance to regulations and procedures of the day which are:

1) Establish a perimeter
2) Wait for SWAT, don't go in yourself
3) Have SWAT make a slow but thorough "secure-room-by-room" entry into the building.

This might have been a good procedure when entering a nightclub where a gang-related gunfight took place, or when busting a meth lab. But if you have active spree shooters, such a reaction is inadequate and slow.

After Columbine, police realized this and changed their procedures. But still, there were later cases of police in the US and worldwide failing to act quickly enough against active spree killers (Jokela, Sandy Hook etc.)

Sabratha wrote:

I have no issues with Gardner. He was just a local guard, he did his best having been alone and not a SWAT sniper etc. Sure he could probably try to pursue them inside the school, but he was not fully aware of how many shooters there are, what's going on etc. He did not have info from 911.

In all, he did what he could given the circumstances.

Police that arrived later? Different story. These were well trained professionals, with adequate numbers, weapons and gear. I think they should have went in early, go to the sound of gunfire.
Having said that, they were acting in accordance to regulations and procedures of the day which are:

1) Establish a perimeter
2) Wait for SWAT, don't go in yourself
3) Have SWAT make a slow but thorough "secure-room-by-room" entry into the building.

This might have been a good procedure when entering a nightclub where a gang-related gunfight took place, or when busting a meth lab. But if you have active spree shooters, such a reaction is inadequate and slow.

After Columbine, police realized this and changed their procedures. But still, there were later cases of police in the US and worldwide failing to act quickly enough against active spree killers (Jokela, Sandy Hook etc.)

local guard or not he should try to be a hero for a change , thats what us are lacking ,  heroes .  Which reminds me hero of the day by metallica .

afrrs wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I have no issues with Gardner. He was just a local guard, he did his best having been alone and not a SWAT sniper etc. Sure he could probably try to pursue them inside the school, but he was not fully aware of how many shooters there are, what's going on etc. He did not have info from 911.

In all, he did what he could given the circumstances.

Police that arrived later? Different story. These were well trained professionals, with adequate numbers, weapons and gear. I think they should have went in early, go to the sound of gunfire.
Having said that, they were acting in accordance to regulations and procedures of the day which are:

1) Establish a perimeter
2) Wait for SWAT, don't go in yourself
3) Have SWAT make a slow but thorough "secure-room-by-room" entry into the building.

This might have been a good procedure when entering a nightclub where a gang-related gunfight took place, or when busting a meth lab. But if you have active spree shooters, such a reaction is inadequate and slow.

After Columbine, police realized this and changed their procedures. But still, there were later cases of police in the US and worldwide failing to act quickly enough against active spree killers (Jokela, Sandy Hook etc.)

local guard or not he should and to be a hero for a change , thats what usa are lacking ,  heroes .  Which reminds me hero of the day by metallica .

I don't think he had enough information to make this type of choice. Hindsight is 20/20. I don't think he alone could do all that much, maybe he would be able to shoot one of the shooters inside, but maybe he would just get shot himself and simply extend the casuality list?

Going in alone, without knowing who the shooters are, how they are armed and what do they want (remember he did not have 911 he did not know it is a spree killing, might have been a gang related stuff or hostage situation he wouldn't be able to handle alone).

So I stand my ground on this: Gardner had very limited resources, very limited information and he was alone. Under said circumstances, I cannot blame him at all.

Sabratha wrote:

afrrs wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I have no issues with Gardner. He was just a local guard, he did his best having been alone and not a SWAT sniper etc. Sure he could probably try to pursue them inside the school, but he was not fully aware of how many shooters there are, what's going on etc. He did not have info from 911.

In all, he did what he could given the circumstances.

Police that arrived later? Different story. These were well trained professionals, with adequate numbers, weapons and gear. I think they should have went in early, go to the sound of gunfire.
Having said that, they were acting in accordance to regulations and procedures of the day which are:

1) Establish a perimeter
2) Wait for SWAT, don't go in yourself
3) Have SWAT make a slow but thorough "secure-room-by-room" entry into the building.

This might have been a good procedure when entering a nightclub where a gang-related gunfight took place, or when busting a meth lab. But if you have active spree shooters, such a reaction is inadequate and slow.

After Columbine, police realized this and changed their procedures. But still, there were later cases of police in the US and worldwide failing to act quickly enough against active spree killers (Jokela, Sandy Hook etc.)

local guard or not he should and to be a hero for a change , thats what usa are lacking ,  heroes .  Which reminds me hero of the day by metallica .

I don't think he had enough information to make this type of choice. Hindsight is 20/20. I don't think he alone could do all that much, maybe he would be able to shoot one of the shooters inside, but maybe he would just get shot himself and simply extend the casuality list?

Going in alone, without knowing who the shooters are, how they are armed and what do they want (remember he did not have 911 he did not know it is a spree killing, might have been a gang related stuff or hostage situation he wouldn't be able to handle alone).

So I stand my ground on this: Gardner had very limited resources, very limited information and he was alone. Under said circumstances, I cannot blame him at all.

yes i guess , but still , if it was me , i would have gone pursuing them , even if slowly , even with a 45 semi auto ( sig sauer or ruger ) , it should be enough to stop them , remember , even a local guard is trained to reload faster , E and D were slower to reload , so thats an advantage for gardner right there . Again if it was me , i would have pursue slowly and at least fire some warning shots , so they could think twice before deciding what the next move would be . Because honestly if they were put throw this situation i just mention , i think they would panic , and then perhaps i could have a " window " in which i could injured them somehow and prevent them from using their weapons .

Thats why they had slings for the guns , so if they were caught or / and fired upon , they still could use the weapons on themselves .

I don't think they would panic. Eric certainly felt comfortable enough to engage Gardner in a firefight, I'm sure he'd do the same at closer ranges.

As I said - if Gardner came in, perhaps he could have stopped them given his gun skills and the poor guns they had.

But the issue is - Gardner had no knowledge of all of this. He didn't know what types of guns they have, or if there's not more shooters inside the school. For all he knew, this might have been a hostage situation by a group of 5+ attackers, some armed with fully automatic weapons.


Also I don't think that was the primary reason why they had slings. I'm sure they had slings because they both had 2 weapons and also pipebombs, spare mags etc. They had a lot of gear on them and it would be a real bother having to put down and pick up a gun each time they wanted to reload the other firearm or pick up and light a pipebomb.

Them having slings and easy-to-reach mags on them is imho one of the best pieces of evidence that they knew the bombs might fail and that NBK will end up with them roaming the school shooting at people. If they just wanted to camp and shoot only at guys running away from the explosion, they wouldn't have needed slings or magazines strapped to their bodies.

Sabratha wrote:

I don't think they would panic. Eric certainly felt comfortable enough to engage Gardner in a firefight, I'm sure he'd do the same at closer ranges.

As I said - if Gardner came in, perhaps he could have stopped them given his gun skills and the poor guns they had.

But the issue is - Gardner had no knowledge of all of this. He didn't know what types of guns they have, or if there's not more shooters inside the school. For all he knew, this might have been a hostage situation by a group of 5+ attackers, some armed with fully automatic weapons.


Also I don't think that was the primary reason why they had slings. I'm sure they had slings because they both had 2 weapons and also pipebombs, spare mags etc. They had a lot of gear on them and it would be a real bother having to put down and pick up a gun each time they wanted to reload the other firearm or pick up and light a pipebomb.

Them having slings and easy-to-reach mags on them is imho one of the best pieces of evidence that they knew the bombs might fail and that NBK will end up with them roaming the school shooting at people. If they just wanted to camp and shoot only at guys running away from the explosion, they wouldn't have needed slings or magazines strapped to their bodies.

off course , that web harness , with sling and the munition belts were handy .

Gardner should have gone in. He was a police officer. They are paid to go in whatever the circumstances and however desperately they might be overmatched.

If there is one law enforcement officer with a gun it does not matter how many perpetrators there are or how well they are armed--he must go in.

Neil Gardner interview here:

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Two kids w/ inferior weapons, zero training or experience had the run of the place for nearly four hours if desired.

The cavalry of professionals with high powered weapons just outside the building was staggering.

They did nothing. An absolute failure beyond all comprehension & reflected by the overhaul on procedure moving forward.

A good debate would be "what was the LE's biggest failure.. before, during or after 4/20?"

Blown away that leadership didn't have massive forced resignations in the months after.

Law enforcement failure is one of the biggest factors in understanding Columbine--the event and the aftermath.

In their official report, they tried to make it look like the deputies and SWAT were extremely active during the event. The deputies are mentioned 46 times, but the report relays such facts as "Deputy Magor sets up a road block on Pierce Street at the southeast corner of the student parking lot." In fact, the deputies did not save the students, despite standing only a few feet away when most were murdered.

The Jefferson County Sheriff's Office was extremely deliberate in their release of information about the shooters' arsenals. They released the Rampart Range videos and even did a public exhibition of all ammo and bombs, which I believe was meant to underscore how overmatched the police were.

On the other hand, they refused to release the Basement Tapes, which would've led to questions (and perhaps lawsuits) inquiring into how two such obviously crazy lunatics could've passed through the justice system without raising any red flags.

In the 11K, a tremendous number of questions are geared toward attempting to find a 3rd suspect or additional shooter. People who were intended victims of the attack are quizzed about whether they were perpetrators. They were desperately looking for an additional target of blame in the wake of the criticism of their own failures. They squandered an opportunity to ask real questions that might've assisted in profiling future shooters, instead wasting their time asking John Savage whether he was somehow involved.

lasttrain wrote:

Yes, law enforcement should have done more.  Deputy Gardner should have immediately followed Eric and Dylan into the school.

The other Jefferson County Deputies team should have gone into the school as soon as they arrived. There was a north-facing entrance to the library several yards west of the west doors. Two of the deputies stood outside of these doors while Eric and Dylan were murdering students.  They could have reached Eric and Dylan and stopped them in about ten seconds by simply walking through these doors (these are the same doors the library survivors would later escape out of).  Eric and Dylan were well aware of this risk and looked at the doors during the shooting in the library.  Evan Todd reports that before Klebold confronted him, Klebold tried the locks on these west rooms, gained access to one, and made a "sweeping" motion across the room with his Tec-9, as if to confront any armed law enforcement that might have made an entrance through these doors.

If you want to understand Eric and Dylan's behavior on that day, you must realize that they believed that law enforcement were going to storm into the school at any minute.  For example, Eric went back out to exchange fire with Deputy Smoker shortly after going in the school.  When the shooters went into the library, they almost immediately went to the windows and started shooting. Todd also reports that when Eric and Dylan left, they made similar "sweeping" motions to cover their rear against law enforcement entrance.

Matthew Depew in the cafeteria heard them yelling "check the window" and "one's coming in." (002837-002838) as they were trying to detonate the bombs.  This was a reference to anticipated law enforcement entrance.

Before they committed suicide, Eric and Dylan tried to engage law enforcement again.  They were as stunned as anyone else that the police did not try to stop them.

Great post.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

A good debate would be "what was the LE's biggest failure..  before, during or after 4/20?"

.

That is an interesting question... I'd have to go with "before" personally, but "during" or "after" were just as bad.