They did it for us

By "us," I mean, "we who think about what Eric and Dylan did a lot more than we should" - the folks who post on this board, and on other sites where 4/20 is talked about. (Yes, Tumblr, too.)

They didn't even need to blow up the fucking school. Their kill-count was a "lowly" 13, and yet here we are, 16 years later, going on and on and on about it.

That is what they wanted - never to be forgotten, to live on forever. And they never shall be forgotten, thanks to us, and those like us.

We are the ones who are making it all worthwhile for them. We are the ones who are giving them what they wanted.

In life, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were less than nothing. To the world, they were two lowly dipshits at the bottom of the social totem pole at Anyschool in Anywhere, U.S.A.

They came to believe that going NBK was the only way they could make themselves known to the whole world as something other than hopeless losers. They were right. And it worked, at least somewhat.

Eric killed Rachel Scott because he wanted me, and others like me, to ask, "Eric, why did you kill her?" He wanted me, and others like me, to find his motives worth probing. And I do.

He and Dylan killed Rachel, and Danny, and all of the others for me, and for all of us here on this board - they dumped all those bodies and bullets and bombs on a plate and said, "Here - chew on this."

I've been chewing on all of them for 16 years now. I haven't choked yet. But I haven't swallowed, either. The answers I seek are as tough to digest as ever.

We are all murderers, in a way.

They wanted to be known.

And they are known. To us. And we are making them known to others.

As I said, we are giving them what they wanted.

They wanted to be known for blowing up their school. They never got that far ... but I'd say that they did damn well for themselves.

Everyone who ever knew them lives in their shadows - everyone. Their mothers and fathers ... their brothers ... their friends ... the Browns ... hell, even guys like Rocky Hoffschneider, who likely didn't know them.

To the extent that any of these folks are known in the wider world outside of the Denver area, it is for having had something to do with Eric and Dylan.

I agree with you. There was so much planning and preamble that you can't not believe that they did this to make a lasting impact on the world. I think Eric is even quoted as saying something like that in the BT transcript. If they were just angry, they could have procured the guns and shot up the school in a couple of weeks. They were aiming for something much darker and bigger. Everyone can achieve immortality through notoriety, good or bad.

Sadly, small flyover states are ripe for events like this. Successful, intelligent mothers and fathers move to these little, isolated townships because they hear about the great schools or the community atmosphere. What they often get is an entire culture filled with oppression, hatred and ignorance. I'm not anti religious, but there are circumstances where faith can be used like a weapon. Columbine is just that type of situation. But it's so permeated into the culture and livelihoods of everyone there that it become a slow erosive force that grinds everyone down.

The reason we still talk about Columbine is because the things that made it happen still exist today, perhaps even more so. Oppressive teen culture, ignorance, bullying as well as a culture of adults too busy obsessing over wealth and material things to be concerned when their son or daughter starts self harming or stockpiling weapons. It never happens in your town, it's always some other town....

...So yes, I agree with you completely.

They did it for them, so that they could bask in the glory of being famous and researched for over a decade after their final moments. In a mere day, they transformed their existence from being averagely un-interesting, lonely, and hellish to euphoric, satisfying, and eternal. In a way they are immortal. In a way, in the end ... they won.

The ironic thing is we look at Eric and Dylan as the humans they were and the majority of people who are disgusted and dislike them, look at them as these killing machine, one dimensional murderous monsters and if you think about it, they are giving E+D exactly what they wanted to known as to the world but we aren't, we see them for who they truly were, just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

AmidTheRuins wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

Have you read Cullen's book?

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

Have you read Cullen's book?

No, but I've read Brooks' book and a couple others on this matter.

AmidTheRuins wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

Have you read Cullen's book?

No, but I've read Brooks' book and a couple others on this matter.

Hmm ... do you believe that Eric was a psychopath who was beyond help?

EDIT: By the way, welcome to the board.

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

Have you read Cullen's book?

No, but I've read Brooks' book and a couple others on this matter.

Hmm ... do you believe that Eric was a psychopath who was beyond help?

EDIT: By the way, welcome to the board.

I don't think he was beyond help, not at all. But he was a narcissistic psychopath nonetheless. CharlesWhitman is right, he was a lonely boy and he did make a silly choice, but he knew what he was doing.
Dylan found a false friend in Eric, and I feel sorry for him. He was depressed, suicidal and was seeking love and companionship. I didn't know him, but I refuse to believe that D was fully standing behind E and NBK. He was not being himself all the time, just to be accepted as a friend by Eric. Maybe it was an schizophrenia-like act. Maybe there were two sides of Dylan. I wouldn't know, but it seems plausible.
As for the shooting itself, I'm not sure if Dylan - the real Dylan - was capable of comitting it. In situations like these, the body and mind fall into a state of intoxication, extasy and numbness. Maybe that's the reason they didn't keep shooting as they initially planned. Dylan might have realised what had happened and wanted to end it.

Also, instead of helping each other out, they both pushed each other more and more into the darkness.
Dylan could've been saved easily, and Eric too, with the right mixture of therapy and interpersonal relationships (security in family and friends (friends=not people who push you into killing others, but preventing such things)).

Now I know, this is an unpopular opinion and I probably sound like Cullen (again, I have not read his book, but I know a little about where he stands).

EDIT: Thanks a lot for the welcome. I've been lurking in the shadows since 2011-ish and finally decided to participate.
I'm a nice guy, so we won't have any problems sharing our theories and opinions

AmidTheRuins wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

Have you read Cullen's book?

No, but I've read Brooks' book and a couple others on this matter.

Hmm ... do you believe that Eric was a psychopath who was beyond help?

I don't think he was beyond help, not at all. But he was a narcissistic psychopath nonetheless. CharlesWhitman is right, he was a lonely boy and he did make a silly choice, but he knew what he was doing.
Dylan found a false friend in Eric, and I feel sorry for him. He was depressed, suicidal and was seeking love and companionship. I didn't know him, but I refuse to believe that D was fully standing behind E and NBK. He was not being himself all the time, just to be accepted as a friend by Eric. Maybe it was an schizophrenia-like act. Maybe there were two sides of Dylan. I wouldn't know, but it seems plausible.
As for the shooting itself, I'm not sure if Dylan - the real Dylan - was capable of comitting it. In situations like these, the body and mind fall into a state of intoxication, extasy and numbness. Maybe that's the reason they didn't keep shooting as they initially planned. Dylan might have realised what had happened and wanted to end it.

Also, instead of helping each other out, they both pushed each other more and more into the darkness.
Dylan could've been saved easily, and Eric too, with the right mixture of therapy and interpersonal relationships (security in family and friends (friends=not people who push you into killing others, but preventing such things)).

Now I know, this is an unpopular opinion and I probably sound like Cullen (again, I have not read his book, but I know a little about where he stands).

You sound *a lot* like Cullen.

Dylan wrote about going on a shooting spree in November 1997, and talked about doing it with someone else.

Those who have watched the basement tapes - and never forget that Cullen was not allowed to see them - have said that Dylan looked and sounded far more bloodthirsty and eager to kill than Eric.

Denver Post reporter Peggy Lowe wrote:

Contrary to popular opinion in the Columbine community, Harris comes off in the videos as the more sympathetic character of the two. Portrayed in the days after the attack as angry and weird, he is apologetic and somewhat remorseful in the tapes. He’s careful to absolve his parents of any blame and shows sympathy to his mother, Kathy, for what he is about to do, trying not to “bond” with her because he will soon die.

“It’s not their fault. They had no fucking clue,” Harris says. “It would not solve anything to arrest them."

But Harris shows some anger toward his father, Wayne, a military man who moved his family across the country several times. Harris talks of always being the new, "white, scrawny” kid.

“I had to go through all that shit so many times,” Harris says.

Klebold is monstrous on the videotapes, openly raging about his lifelong hidden anger and all the slights he suffered at the hands of students, teachers and his family. He smiles ghoulishly into the camera, lovingly handles weapons and constantly combs his fingers through his shoulder-length red hair. He shows no contrition, only deadly aggression.

“This goes to all my family: I’m sorry I have so much rage,” Klebold says. “You made me what I am. Actually, you just added to what I am."

Dylan said that Eric was "a" friend ... Eric said that Dylan was his "best" friend. Dylan had more friends than Eric.

Some of Dylan's writings do give off a schizo vibe.

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

AmidTheRuins wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys who made a silly choice in life..

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

Have you read Cullen's book?

No, but I've read Brooks' book and a couple others on this matter.

Hmm ... do you believe that Eric was a psychopath who was beyond help?

I don't think he was beyond help, not at all. But he was a narcissistic psychopath nonetheless. CharlesWhitman is right, he was a lonely boy and he did make a silly choice, but he knew what he was doing.
Dylan found a false friend in Eric, and I feel sorry for him. He was depressed, suicidal and was seeking love and companionship. I didn't know him, but I refuse to believe that D was fully standing behind E and NBK. He was not being himself all the time, just to be accepted as a friend by Eric. Maybe it was an schizophrenia-like act. Maybe there were two sides of Dylan. I wouldn't know, but it seems plausible.
As for the shooting itself, I'm not sure if Dylan - the real Dylan - was capable of comitting it. In situations like these, the body and mind fall into a state of intoxication, extasy and numbness. Maybe that's the reason they didn't keep shooting as they initially planned. Dylan might have realised what had happened and wanted to end it.

Also, instead of helping each other out, they both pushed each other more and more into the darkness.
Dylan could've been saved easily, and Eric too, with the right mixture of therapy and interpersonal relationships (security in family and friends (friends=not people who push you into killing others, but preventing such things)).

Now I know, this is an unpopular opinion and I probably sound like Cullen (again, I have not read his book, but I know a little about where he stands).

You sound *a lot* like Cullen.

Dylan wrote about going on a shooting spree in November 1997, and talked about doing it with someone else.

Those who have watched the basement tapes - and never forget that Cullen was not allowed to see them - have said that Dylan looked and sounded far more bloodthirsty and eager to kill than Eric.

Denver Post reporter Peggy Lowe wrote:

Contrary to popular opinion in the Columbine community, Harris comes off in the videos as the more sympathetic character of the two. Portrayed in the days after the attack as angry and weird, he is apologetic and somewhat remorseful in the tapes. He’s careful to absolve his parents of any blame and shows sympathy to his mother, Kathy, for what he is about to do, trying not to “bond” with her because he will soon die.

“It’s not their fault. They had no fucking clue,” Harris says. “It would not solve anything to arrest them."

But Harris shows some anger toward his father, Wayne, a military man who moved his family across the country several times. Harris talks of always being the new, "white, scrawny” kid.

“I had to go through all that shit so many times,” Harris says.

Klebold is monstrous on the videotapes, openly raging about his lifelong hidden anger and all the slights he suffered at the hands of students, teachers and his family. He smiles ghoulishly into the camera, lovingly handles weapons and constantly combs his fingers through his shoulder-length red hair. He shows no contrition, only deadly aggression.

“This goes to all my family: I’m sorry I have so much rage,” Klebold says. “You made me what I am. Actually, you just added to what I am."

Dylan said that Eric was "a" friend ... Eric said that Dylan was his "best" friend. Dylan had more friends than Eric.

Some of Dylan's writings do give off a schizo vibe.

Do you personally know anyone who watched the tapes?
In Hitmen for Hire you can see the seriousness of Eric while he's talking directly into the camera. Dylan can't keep a straight face, like it's a joke for him.
I always thought that Eric just said what he sincerely felt, while Dylan had trouble acting like this.

Yes, Dylan wrote about that. In my teenage years, when I was a bullied outcast, I thought about stuff like that as well, because I was pissed off. I never actually wanted to do anything.

I'm sure they thought of each other as friends, they had mutual interests and a secret. I'm just not sure if they actually "liked" each other or if it was a friendship to act out their "greater good" plan.
I just remember this one incident where Dylan accidentally tells Eric that he's jewish and Eric is like "You're jewish? That's too bad." Sure sounds like a best friend to me.

Just so you know, I'm not saying I'm right nor that this is the 100% only true answer, it's just what I've been thinking about all this.

Quote :

Do you personally know anyone who watched the tapes?

I do not.

Quote :

In Hitmen for Hire you can see the seriousness of Eric while he's talking directly into the camera. Dylan can't keep a straight face, like it's a joke for him.
I always thought that Eric just said what he sincerely felt, while Dylan had trouble acting like this.

Maybe Eric thought that death was something deep, something that shouldn't be joked about. Maybe Dylan thought everything was a joke - even murder.

Dylan was the better actor overall. He fooled everyone. Lots of folks thought Eric was weird and moody, and that he might do something bad; far fewer thought that way about Dylan. The basement tapes made it clear that, while Dylan laughed a lot in life, he was not joking about wanting to kill and to die.

I keep hearing that Dylan went along with Eric only because he was afraid of him. Bullshit.

If Dylan didn't want to go NBK, then all he had to do was call the police, or Wayne Harris, or even Frank DeAngelis.

I also keep hearing that Dylan didn't want to kill. Bullshit.

If Dylan only wanted to die, then all he had to do was shoot himself in the head. Lots of guys do it all the time.

Both boys wanted to kill, and both boys wanted to die.

Quote :

Yes, Dylan wrote about that. In my teenage years, when I was a bullied outcast, I thought about stuff like that as well, because I was pissed off. I never actually wanted to do anything.

Yes, but if Dylan is writing about this shit before Eric, then what does that say about Dylan?

Quote :

I'm sure they thought of each other as friends, they had mutual interests and a secret. I'm just not sure if they actually "liked" each other or if it was a friendship to act out their "greater good" plan.

You can say that about any friendship. All friendships are based on something that the two friends have in common. At least, that's how they start. You don't walk up to some stranger and say, "Oh, my God, I feel such an incredible connection to you! Let's be BFFs forever!" You meet someone ... the two of you get to talking ... you find out that you have a lot things in common. The more you talk, the closer you feel.

You're not cosmically fated to be friends with anyone ... you find your friends among the folks you know. Maybe Eric had a friend/platonic-soulmate who would have been his best bro forever, but who lived in Iowa and never met him. I don't know. But among the kids at Columbine, Dylan was the one who Eric liked the most.

Quote :

I just remember this one incident where Dylan accidentally tells Eric that he's jewish and Eric is like "You're jewish? That's too bad." Sure sounds like a best friend to me.

Well, the two of them were mouthing off all the time about "kikes," and then Dylan inadvertently admitted that he was Jewish. Eric was taken aback. He was surprised that he didn't know it.

Think about the level of trust that Eric was putting in Dylan. If Dylan had wanted to fuck over Eric, he could have done so at any time. (I will make a new post about this.)

If I had a best friend who I thought I knew everything about, I would be surprised to learn that he had a different background from the one I thought he had. It wouldn't offend me, or anger me, but it would surprise me - "Hey, if I didn't know that about you, what do I still not know about you?"

But how does Eric take it? Does he blow up at Dylan? Does he tell him to leave? He does not. Once Eric got over his surprise, there's no indication that he ever had any problems with Dylan's background. They didn't have any kind of a falling-out.

Quote :

Just so you know, I'm not saying I'm right nor that this is the 100% only true answer, it's just what I've been thinking about all this.

Yeah, I hear you.

I've always said that Columbine was a "perfect storm" - lots of things came together to make it happen.

AmidTheRuins wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

just two lonely boys.

Dylan, yes. Eric, not so much.
But that's just my opinion.

Then maybe lost is a better word.

Why is Cullen a litmus test for all new board members? I don't agree with that at all.

Cullen's diagnosis of Eric as a psychopath was not even his own opinion--it was the opinion of Dr. Frank Ochberg, Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Robert Hare, and Dwayne Fuselier, the FBI profiler.  

I agree with AmidtheRuins.  The shooting as it happened was Eric's fantasy come to life, not Dylan's.  Dylan doesn't even start writing about shooting up the school until right before they do it.

Eric was the psychopath, Dylan was down for whatever.

I agree that there were a lot of trained people who diagnosed Eric as a psychopath.

The reason everyone has a hard time with Cullen's book is the fact that he opens with Eric getting more girls than the football team. He also takes the testimony of a confessed liar(Brenda) and uses it with no repercussions. He tried to claim that the boys were not bullied at all, but instead were bullies themselves.

Personally, I liked reading his book. It was written in a way that is engaging to read. Cullen manages to paint a very interesting, fact filled picture of Columbine and CHS as a whole. I can't forgive people who rewrite history for their own gain, though.

lasttrain wrote:

Why is Cullen a litmus test for all new board members? I don't agree with that at all.

Who's talking about making him a litmus test? I was wondering how AmidtheRuins came to believe what he believes.

If he had said, "Eric and Dylan were bullied every day," I might have asked, "Did you get that Brooks Brown?"

Quote :

Cullen's diagnosis of Eric as a psychopath was not even his own opinion--it was the opinion of Dr. Frank Ochberg, Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Robert Hare, and Dwayne Fuselier, the FBI profiler.  

I agree with AmidtheRuins.  The shooting as it happened was Eric's fantasy come to life, not Dylan's.  Dylan doesn't even start writing about shooting up the school until right before they do it.

On Monday, November 3, 1997, Dylan Klebold wrote the following:

Dylan Klebold wrote:

[edited] will get me a gun, ill go on my killing spree against anyone I want.

[edited] IS NOT ERIC.

You're off the track on this one, 'train.

Not off-track at all.  I said "Dylan doesn't even start writing about shooting up the school until right before they do it."

The school.

The quote you reference says nothing about a school or Columbine or a bombing or anything else. Dylan's diary is almost all about girls.  Writes about NBK very briefly there.  Eric's is an obsessive point-by-point description of what would happen in the school and then some.

Dylan says "maybe going NBK is the only way." Eric says "when I go NBK."

So it's easy to see whose fantasy it was.  Dylan was along for the suicidal ride.

OP - Good post.

One of the reasons why I tend to disappear from the forums for years at times, back doing other stuff, making mods for wargames, doing stuff in the extinct species forums or designing pre-dreadnaught fleet swith some friends. Columbine and spree-killiers are one of my weird little quirky interest subjects, but by far the only one.

Cool! Same here really. I suffer from contact depression if I'm here too long at one time : )

LPorter101 wrote:

In life, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were less than nothing. To the world, they were two lowly dipshits at the bottom of the social totem pole at Anyschool in Anywhere, U.S.A.
.

If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom of the totem pole at their school, they wouldn't have all the friends that they have. If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom, that pretty girl who fired the shotgun and giggled on the Rampart Range video wouldn't have been caught dead with them. If they were truly at the bottom, they would not have friends. I'm sure that there are students who attended Columbine High School during the 1998-1999 school year who didn't have any friends and sat alone in the cafeteria at lunch.

gumshoe wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

In life, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were less than nothing. To the world, they were two lowly dipshits at the bottom of the social totem pole at Anyschool in Anywhere, U.S.A.
.

If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom of the totem pole at their school, they wouldn't have all the friends that they have.  If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom, that pretty girl who fired the shotgun and giggled on the Rampart Range video wouldn't have been caught dead with them.  If they were truly at the bottom, they would not have friends.  I'm sure that there are students who attended Columbine High School during the 1998-1999 school year who didn't have any friends and sat alone in the cafeteria at lunch.

Well, yeah.

They were near the bottom, but not at it. I've said that before.

There was a very big gap in the social ladder at Columbine. If you played sports and had school spirit or were of the Evangelical faith, you were in. If you had less mainstream pursuits, or were into computers, gaming goth stuff etc. you were in a very different group. That group was still large and sociable, with it's own pecking order or hierarchy. It was still a different, lower group though. Remember that CHS was a very big school with 2012 students, and Eric was pissed that the higher groups didn't worship him.

radaddio wrote:

into computers, gaming.

Oh how the world has changed, back in the 90's I was considered a nerd for playing video games or owning a PC, or even knowing what the internet was, I had to lie many times in school and say that I didn't play video games so I didn't get ridiculed by it, now all those jocky guys spend their life glued to Facebook and Call of Duty, can't even leave the house without I-phone with internet access on it in their back pockets..

CharlesWhitman wrote:

radaddio wrote:

into computers, gaming.

Oh how the world has changed, back in the 90's I was considered a nerd for playing video games or owning a PC, or even knowing what the internet was, I had to lie many times in school and say that I didn't play video games so I didn't get ridiculed by it, now all those jocky guys spend their life glued to Facebook and Call of Duty, can't even leave the house without I-phone with internet access on it in their back pockets..

Yes, but are the hard-core gamer guys getting laid more now than they were back then? I doubt it.

Jocks now know 'net, so they can tweet tidings of their titillating sexual adventures:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

But nerds still sleep alone:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

LPorter101 wrote:

gumshoe wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

In life, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were less than nothing. To the world, they were two lowly dipshits at the bottom of the social totem pole at Anyschool in Anywhere, U.S.A.
.

If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom of the totem pole at their school, they wouldn't have all the friends that they have.  If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom, that pretty girl who fired the shotgun and giggled on the Rampart Range video wouldn't have been caught dead with them.  If they were truly at the bottom, they would not have friends.  I'm sure that there are students who attended Columbine High School during the 1998-1999 school year who didn't have any friends and sat alone in the cafeteria at lunch.

Well, yeah.

They were near the bottom, but not at it. I've said that before.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I just wanted to point out that the "pretty girl" in Rampart Range was 20-something years old and Mark Manes' girlfriend, not a high school kid. Not quite the same as having a pretty, popular girl from school shooting guns with you. (I typed "at you" the first time, lol. That would have made a whole different news story.)

lasttrain wrote:

So it's easy to see whose fantasy it was.  Dylan was along for the suicidal ride.

It is easy to see whose fantasy it was - it was both of their fantasies.

Dylan thought it up all on his own. Eric wrote about it more yes, but that has more to do with how he was as a person than how much more he was into the shooting idea. Dylan was much more private, hid things much better. After every thing we have seen, I find it hard to believe that this was not also Dylan's fantasy. One cannot be 'along for the ride' on a killing spree, it's the sort of thing you could only go through with if you really wanted to do it.

They did it for themselves in my opinion.

Dylan hated himself.. Eric hated himself & projected that hate onto others.

Life has it's leaders.. life has it followers. They are all guilty by participation, but there are a lot of examples of truly whacked out sociopathic leaders that are the catalyst by which others who are weak, lost & depressed join in.

Eric was doing this in some way or fashion with or without CHS &/or Dylan. Dylan easily joined in & could have easily never participated.

Either way, I feel they did everything in a self serving fashion.

Wideawake wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

gumshoe wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

In life, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were less than nothing. To the world, they were two lowly dipshits at the bottom of the social totem pole at Anyschool in Anywhere, U.S.A.
.

If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom of the totem pole at their school, they wouldn't have all the friends that they have.  If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom, that pretty girl who fired the shotgun and giggled on the Rampart Range video wouldn't have been caught dead with them.  If they were truly at the bottom, they would not have friends.  I'm sure that there are students who attended Columbine High School during the 1998-1999 school year who didn't have any friends and sat alone in the cafeteria at lunch.

Well, yeah.

They were near the bottom, but not at it. I've said that before.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I just wanted to point out that the "pretty girl" in Rampart Range was 20-something years old and Mark Manes' girlfriend, not a high school kid. Not quite the same as having a pretty, popular girl from school shooting guns with you. (I typed "at you" the first time, lol. That would have made a whole different news story.)

True. E&D were not the top of teh school hierarchy, not popular kids everyone wanted to hang out with.

But on the other hand, they were not loners. They had quite a few people who wanted to hang out with them, play games, go to restaurants, play fantasy baseball and whatnot. Dylan in particular seems to have been well liked by many. Eric less so, but by all evidence it was in some part his own fault - he had a habit of getting angry with people and having feuds with people who were his freiends.
Brooks Brown is the most famous case (not the least because of police being involved), but hardly the only one. Eric started a feud with Baumgart as early as their sophomore year and then dragged Dylan and Zach into it. He also had gripes with Nate at some point, they made up only during their senior year if I recall correctly.

Sabratha wrote:

Wideawake wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

gumshoe wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

In life, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were less than nothing. To the world, they were two lowly dipshits at the bottom of the social totem pole at Anyschool in Anywhere, U.S.A.
.

If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom of the totem pole at their school, they wouldn't have all the friends that they have.  If Eric and Dylan were truly at the bottom, that pretty girl who fired the shotgun and giggled on the Rampart Range video wouldn't have been caught dead with them.  If they were truly at the bottom, they would not have friends.  I'm sure that there are students who attended Columbine High School during the 1998-1999 school year who didn't have any friends and sat alone in the cafeteria at lunch.

Well, yeah.

They were near the bottom, but not at it. I've said that before.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I just wanted to point out that the "pretty girl" in Rampart Range was 20-something years old and Mark Manes' girlfriend, not a high school kid. Not quite the same as having a pretty, popular girl from school shooting guns with you. (I typed "at you" the first time, lol. That would have made a whole different news story.)

True. E&D were not the top of teh school hierarchy, not popular kids everyone wanted to hang out with.

But on the other hand, they were not loners. They had quite a few people who wanted to hang out with them, play games, go to restaurants, play fantasy baseball and whatnot. Dylan in particular seems to have been well liked by many. Eric less so, but by all evidence it was in some part his own fault - he had a habit of getting angry with people and having feuds with people who were his freiends.
Brooks Brown is the most famous case (not the least because of police being involved), but hardly the only one. Eric started a feud with Baumgart as early as their sophomore year and then dragged Dylan and Zach into it. He also had gripes with Nate at some point, they made up only during their senior year if I recall correctly.

People tend to confuse the words unpopular and loners I think. E and D weren't out partying with the football team or hooking up with the cheerleaders but they weren't all alone. Their friends just weren't popular either so in the aftermath a lot of their fellow students had no idea who they hung out with. It doesn't help that they were associated with TCM which actively tried to be "outcasts". That all combined with E and D's odd nature and weird dress styles made it easier for people who didnt know them to put them in the loner category. Eric did get picked on quite a bit, but what non-jock doesnt get shit from other kids in highschool? As sad as it is bullying is just part of it.

Honestly I think E and D had more friends then I did when I was in highschool. Eric also tried to talk to women a lot more than I did. By all accounts they had a pretty normal highschool experience compared to a lot of people, and yet 99% of those people don't shoot up their schools. IMO E and D simply played the bullying and loneliness card as a way to justify their homicidal and suicidal urges. All they had to do was wait a few weeks and school would have been over. Eric would have been free from his jock tormentors and Dylan could have met new non-columbine girls in college. They had to have been smart enough to know things would get better. The drive to kill and die was just too strong for them to contain and most of the reasons they gave for going NBK were simply excuses to let it out.

oh Eric and Dylan had friends, like Mike V, Chris Morris, Nate Dykeman and Brooks Brown... but since they were not beautiful cheerleaders, football players or rich people, then Eric and Dylan might as well have no friends at all, because none of those people meant a damn thing to the school.

Exactly. The idea that they were loners came about because they were ignored by the popular students and looked down on by the religious ones. Eric and Dylan could be called loners in the broad sense that they didnt fit in with the atmosphere at Columbine or in Littleton as a whole. The same could be said for many other students though, a lot of whom were friends with E and D. The media didnt help either. It was like the majority of people actually wanted Eric and Dylan to be these two hateful devil worshipping nazi social failures who tried to attack the "perfect" religious, educational, and societal status quo. There was absolutely no chance at all these were just two mentally ill, scared, and confused CHILDREN (I know Eric was 18 but I think we can agree he wasnt an adult maturity wise) instead of evil "Natural Born Killers" who failed to adapt to our society.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I don't think I can agree with you that they used their loneliness, alienation and anger as excuses to do what they did. I think they felt all those things incredibly vividly. People can argue about exactly how bullied and alienated they actually were but they felt amazingly alienated and mistreated. If they hadn't felt that way, I don't think they'd have ever come up with this plan in the first place.
Sadly, E &D came to feel that what they doing was somehow justified and worth dying for.
I'm not trying to start an argument with you Nirvana because I enjoy your posts and agree with much of what you say but I felt I had to speak what I feel to be the truth.

I've tried for 20 minutes to write a detailed reply, but I'm sleep deprived so hopefully this makes sense:

E and D used their loneliness and anger to create the characters of Reb and V. The "Gods of sadness". This helped boost their egos and self esteems very much, to the point they became dependent on the thoughts of NBK. Planning was an escape that they justified with their loneliness. Honestly there are many people far worse off than E and D were. The boys acted like their feelings were unique. To continue their NBK delusions they had to play up their feelings. The sadder they were, the better they felt in a way. Eventually the time came it was either put up or shut up. Blaming their sadness and building up these characters made it so they couldn't live without them. To me NBK was caused by the addiction to the mental escapism the boys formed, not solely because they were sad or angry. "We're proving ourselves" one says on the BT. Proving to themselves especially that they really were these "gods" they wanted to be.

CharlesWhitman wrote:

oh Eric and Dylan had friends, like Mike V, Chris Morris, Nate Dykeman and Brooks Brown... but since they were not beautiful cheerleaders, football players or rich people, then Eric and Dylan might as well have no friends at all, because none of those people meant a damn thing to the school.

Yeah, but frankly 80% or so of columbine didn't have friends who were "beautiful cheerleaders, football players or rich people". If you read witness accounts and Larkin's interviews, you get zounds of different students from all walks of life who were dissed by jocks, abused and treated in the way E&D were.

My point is: not having "beautiful cheerleaders and jocks" as friends didn't make you a "bottom-of-the-pile loser" at CHS. It made you an average joe by all accounts. And that's frankly what E&D were. Only their personal connection with Morris or Joe Stair, that made them to wear trenchcoats and be even loosly associated with the TCM. They weren't even true TCM members, not considered as such and did not appear on TCM photos, etc.

Again: as far as CHS went, E&D were pretty average kids, with average lives, average friends and average CHS experiences.

As for wealth - if there was anything out of the oridinary in their backgrounds, it was Dylan's house and the wealth of his parents. Some people considered Dylan a "rich kid".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Thank you for explaining your views more fully to me.
You really helped me understand where you were coming from and I think there is a lot of truth in what you said.

wideawake, thank you for the information about the pretty girl shooting the shotgun with them. I agree that having a 20 something year old girl shooting with you is not exactly the same thing as having a popular pretty girl from school shooting with you, but i would argue that it is approximately the same. She probably would not have been caught dead with me when she was in her early 20s.

By the way, where did you get your information that she was Mark Manes' girlfriend? I have read all the books & i didn't know that.

page 008239:

Manes stated that his girlfriend, Jessie Miklich, was present when they went shooting of three occasions

page 008176:

Miklich stated that she has known Mark Manes since approximately February of 1999. Miklich had worked as a barmaid at the Kilt and Candle Pub in Littleton, CO, and met Manes when he was a customer. Miklich described the relationship that she and Manes have as being very close and that they tell each other everything.

LPorter101 wrote:

CharlesWhitman wrote:

radaddio wrote:

into computers, gaming.

Oh how the world has changed, back in the 90's I was considered a nerd for playing video games or owning a PC, or even knowing what the internet was, I had to lie many times in school and say that I didn't play video games so I didn't get ridiculed by it, now all those jocky guys spend their life glued to Facebook and Call of Duty, can't even leave the house without I-phone with internet access on it in their back pockets..

Yes, but are the hard-core gamer guys getting laid more now than they were back then? I doubt it.

Jocks now know 'net, so they can tweet tidings of their titillating sexual adventures:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

But nerds still sleep alone:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thats such a bad example though. I don't want to be rude or offend anyone and I'm all for loving people the way they are, but attraction is still an important part of it all. I can assure you the dude on the bottom being single has nothing to do with him being a gamer. It might not be his fault he's big but its also not a woman's fault that she doesn't find him attractive. We as a species find it easier to blame our problems on being part of a victimized group than to admit our personal faults. Its much easier to say "Women don't like me because I'm a gamer" than to say "Women don't like me because I'm seriously overweight" etc..

E and D were good dude but they also had some weird tendencies. Dylan had a habit of not bathing and wearing the same clothes for days on end. He also was said to have gotten physically violent towards girls on multiple occasions. Eric actually thrived on people thinking he was weird. He went so far as to fake a suicide because of a girls rejection. Its not hard at all to see why they weren't popular with the ladies. It wasnt necessarily their fault either. At that age you're either popular and smooth with the ladies or you're an awkward mess. Its like that for just about every teenage guy. We can sympathize with E and D's loneliness but we don't have to pretend they didnt bring it on themselves sometimes.

Regarding the photograph of Gronkowski juxtaposed with the photograph of the overweight gamer, the fact that Gronkowski is going to have attractive girls seeking to be his girlfriend while attractive girls won't touch the fat gamer with a ten feet long pole has nothing to do with video games.  It is about their physicalities.  Gronkowski is going to have attractive girls wanting to be his girlfriend whether or not he plays video games because he is a 6'7", slim, muscular multimillionaire football player.  The overweight gamer is not going to have attractive girls wanting to be his girlfriend because of the overweight guys' physicality, not because the overweight guy plays video games.